Any experiences with Berberine/Quercetin? Pls need help

Discussion in 'Feline Health - (Welcome & Main Forum)' started by Dalidali, Oct 11, 2016.

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  1. Dalidali

    Dalidali New Member

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    Oct 11, 2016
    Hello from France, I'm trying to help my loved cat and search for help if someone had informations or any experiences on berberine or quercetin use please?(dosage, long term, etc?)
    After all the studies I read it can really help in dabiete disease.

    My little 3 years old kitty has developped autoimmune hemolytic anemia (her own body attack her white blood cells) following a vaccine reaction.After a really hard anemia, she is on cortisone now and slowly come back to normal, but this disease generally come back quickly with lot of relapses and a high proportion of these animals died in the coming months or 2/3 years. The cortisone will be tappered slowly and try to take her off the med. That's where Berberine/quercetin could save her life in controlling the disease activity severity or relapses. Cause without nothing, the relapse will come back with deadly/more severity in 6/12/24 months in the majority of cases of AIHA (after vaccination) I saw online.

    There is different studies showing how Berberine can slow this disease activity, ease the symptoms, and help to have less or no relapses in autoimmune hemolytic anemia via his mechanism (inhibition of Th17cells, IL17, IL 23, act on the PPARy, antioxydant, anticoagulant, antiviral etc etc)

    Berberine is not that well absorbed apparently and studies show how in combination with a P-gp inhibitor , absorption was increase. And Quercetin acts as a P-gp inhibitor ( but also acts on the Th17 cells, Il 17, etc)

    That's why a combo of this two could really help to prolonged my cat's life and she would really benefit from it when she will be no more on cortisone.
    But I now need to understand what safe dosage I could make for her daily supplement. Even my vet who is a traditionnal told me after I showed him things that it could be great benefit to try it but admit that he has no knowledge about all that natural stuff and couldn't help me with dosage/ect.

    I come here as after hours of research studies, I saw that the natural things I was searching that could help her disease especially Berberine quercetin and curcumin was linked to Diabete as the majority of the studies trying those natural compounds were treating diabete humans or animals with some good results.

    That's why I came here searching for help in knowledge/dosage on berberine and quercetin as maybe someone already tried it or have infos/experiences on its use. As I'm quite lost on this final step. This cat is so important to me and I can't stay without doing nothing and just wait for her deadly relapse (or if not Deadly the first time, then it's cortisone (dermipred) for life long term until the next relapse or Deadly complications because of the cortisone administration)

    After all the recent studies I read, It is certain that she will benefit from Berberine/quercetin, but I still have to be cautious about the dosage (even if in all the studies it says that Berberine is safe except maybe little diarrhea that can be overcomed in divided the dose in 3 daily take)

    For the quercetin, I read on a online dogs health site : "Take the weight of your pet and multiply it by 1000mg, then divide it by 125 to get the milligram dosage your pet needs" . It says its the same and safe for cats use, also that Quercetin could be given for 12 weeks consecutivly and then make a pause.
    Any one know if that way of calculate the dosage for quercetin is really accurate?

    But I especially search for help for Berberine. (i saw that golden seal extract is given to some dogs and cats and it contains a lot berberine but I still don't find an average safe daily dosage. I read on a 'vetasking 'website someone said " my vet give to my cat Berberine once daily but he really don't like the taste", the vet answered about the taste issue, but anything about dosage. The person who asked the question is Anonymous, otherwise I would have contact her for dosage,etc..

    So there it is, sorry for this enormous text, but I needed to explain why I search nd what I know for the moment. Hope someone can help me in to prolonged my cat's life. She need those things to try to help her to live 'normally' with this disease and limit its activity/relapses while she'll be off cortisone.
    I have the Berberine powder, the quercetin/bromelain, the empty gel caps for cat, but I need to act safely about dosage of course, that's where I'm quite lost. Never used herbal suppléments,etc

    ps: oh and if you never heard about Berberine, I recommend you to look at some recent studies as it show it can be really helpful to control diabete disease mechanism
    Thank you!
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2016
  2. Critter Mom

    Critter Mom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2014
  3. Dalidali

    Dalidali New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 11, 2016
    Thank you Critter Mom for the bump ^^

    It is certain that Berberine could help a lot of cats here, as it is the most powerful natural stuff against diabete mechanism and complications. (treatment on its own but also could really help to reduce the conventional medications's amount needed )

    Look at some of the studies from only these last months!

    --Myocardial Salvaging Effects of Berberine in Experimental Diabetes Co-Existing with Myocardial Infarction (march 2016)

    "Conclusion:Berberine treatment produced myocardial salvaging effects in the setting of diabetes challenged with ISP induced myocardial necrosis. Cardioprotection may be attributed to anti-diabetic and hypolipidemic activities."
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27134894


    --
    Berberine alleviates the cerebrovascular contractility in streptozotocin-induced diabetic rats (April 2016)

    Conclusion
    : Our study indicated that berberine alleviated the cerebral arterial contractility in the rat model of streptozotocin-induced diabetes via regulating the intracellular Ca2+ handling of smooth muscle cells.
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4828787/


    --Neuroprotective effect of berberine is mediated by MAPK signaling pathway in experimental diabetic neuropathy in rats(feb 2016)

    Conclusion: These findings suggest that berberine has a beneficial effect against diabetic neuropathy by improving micropathology and increasing neuritin expression via the mitogen-activated protein kinase signaling pathway.
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26849937


    --Metabolomics Study of Type 2 Diabetes Mellitus and the AntiDiabetic Effect of Berberine in Zucker Diabetic Fatty Rats (May 2016)

    Conclusion
    :These results suggested that the anti-diabetic effect of berberine occurred mainly via its regulation of glycometabolism and lipometabolism and activation of adenosine 5'-monophosphate-activated protein kinase. Our work not only provides a better understanding of the anti-diabetic effect of berberine in ZDF rats but also supplies a useful database for further study in humans and for investigating the pharmacological actions of drugs.
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26888689


    --Berberine Pretreatment Confers Cardioprotection Against Ischemia-Reperfusion Injury in a Rat Model of Type 2 Diabètes (feb 2016)

    Preclinical and clinical studies have demonstrated that berberine (BBR) improves diabetic complications and reduces mortality of patients with congestive heart failure.
    These findings indicate that BBR protects the diabetic heart from ischemia-reperfusion injury. In addition, BBR may mediate this cardioprotective effect through AMPK activation, AKT phosphorylation, and GSK3β inhibition in the nonischemic areas of the diabetic heart.
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26846272


    --Renoprotective effects of berberine and its potential effect on diabetic nephropaty rats ( Dec 2015)

    Conclusion
    : Berberine exhibited renoprotective effects in DN rats. The underlying molecular mechanisms may be associated with changes in the levels and regulation of β-arrestin expression, as well as ICAM-1 and VCAM-1 levels in the rat kidney.
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26531813


    --This study evaluated the effects of berberine in combination with insulin on early osseointegration of implants in diabetic rats (Dec 2015)

    The combination treatment of insulin and berberine was more effective than each administrated as a monotherapy. These results suggest that berberine combined with insulin could promote osseointegration in diabetic rats.
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4691484/


    --Journal of diabete investigation: Berberine activates peroxisome proliferator-activated receptor gamma to increase atherosclerotic plaque stability in Apoe-/- mice with hyperhomocysteinemia.

    An elevated level of plasma homocysteine has long been suspected as a metabolic risk factor for the development of atherosclerotic vascular diseases in diabetes.
    Conclusion:Berberine increases atherosclerotic plaque stability in hyperhomocysteinemia mice, which is related to the activation of peroxisome proliferator-activated receptor-γ and subsequent suppression of oxidative stress in endothelial cells.
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27181586


    --Berberine enhances antidiabetic effects and attenuates untoward effects of canagliflozin in streptozotocin-induced diabetic mice. (July 2016)

    The present study represented the first report that canagliflozin combined with berberine was a promising treatment for diabetes mellitus.
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27507202


    --Berberine treatment prevents cardiac dysfunction and remodeling in Type 2 diabetic rats (Dec 2015)


    Conclusion: The results strongly indicate that berberine treatment may be protective against the development of diabetic cardiomyopathy.
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26522928


    --Protective Effects of Berberine on Renal Injury in STZ-Induced Diabetic Mice (August 2016)

    Diabetic nephropathy (DN) is a serious diabetic complication with renal hypertrophy and expansion of extracellular matrices in renal fibrosis.
    The data from present study suggest that BBR can ameliorate tubulointerstitial fibrosis in DN by activating Nrf2 pathway and inhibiting TGF-β/Smad/EMT signaling activity.
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5000724/

    --Effects And Mechanisms Of Berberine In Diabetes Treatment (Dec 2015)
    http://www.cailsilorin.com/effects-and-mechanisms-of-berberine-in-diabetes-treatment/


    _________________________________________________________________

    Ok I stop here cause I could go on and on all the day lol, the list is infinite, it's just incredible the amount of berberine studies regarding diabete.
    Of course as it's the more recent studies, it's on rats/mice, but there are also large amount of studies (2015,2014 and before) on Humans with diabete and how Berberine was helping. So it definitly should benefit diabete cats aswell.

    Mine has AIHA but the underlying mechanism and how berberine could help is the same.
    I search for a quite safe dosage, for the moment regarding humans/rats studies, it seems that a 20mg/kg/day is safe for oral chronic administration. Of course I'm afraid of overdosing, but I'm also afraid to give too ligth doses to have any benefits as berberine has a low absorption rate.

     
  4. Critter Mom

    Critter Mom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2014
    Do you have any holistic vets in France? I think that might be the best route to finding out:

    1. Whether a particular supplement is safe or toxic to cats (and whether it may interact with other treatments or have other potentially harmful effects).

    2. If safe, what dosage.

    I found this blog online. It is written by an animal herbalist based in Canada but on the site it says that they do offer consults for patients internationally.

    http://ottawavalleydogwhisperer.blogspot.co.uk/2013/10/golden-seal-herbs-for-dogs-and-cats.html

    If they are legitimate you should expect them to ask for a full clinical history for your cat and also a schedule of all treatments your cat is currently receiving. I would look to see whether they would be happy to work in partnership with my own vet if I were in a similar situation. Holistic treatment is a very specialised area and one needs to be very careful about seeking help via the internet; for your kitty's safety you would need to do a lot of due diligence before acting on the advice of any such practitioner you choose to consult.

    I really think it is VITAL to get opinions from multiple sources as to whether any supplement is safe for use in cats; sometimes things that are safe for other animals and humans are completely toxic to cats. If it were me I would seek to consult people with extensive experience of treating cats with each and every particular supplement. I would ask about any and all possible side effects and adverse reactions. I would seek to make contact with other people who have tried the supplements and ask about both their positive and negative experiences. It is also a must to discuss any supplements you are considering giving with your main vet and to keep them in the loop all the time (otherwise they would not be able to propose safe treatments for any other issues).

    The only info I've come across regarding the supplements you list is curcumin. According to my reading it can cause irritation of the gastrointestinal tract.

    I suggest that you create a new thread here on Feline Health asking whether anyone has knowledge of or any experience of dealing with feline autoimmune haemolytic anaemia. A thread with that specific title should hopefully get the attention of any members here who may have some knowledge or experience of dealing with such a condition. If there are any members familiar with the condition they may be able to give you information on treatments that they know about. I also suggest that you try posting on:

    http://www.thecatsite.com/

    It's a very active cat health forum.

    I'm sorry that I don't have any direct experience to share with you. I hope you will find things to help your precious little girl.

    :bighug:


    Mogs
    .
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2016
  5. Dalidali

    Dalidali New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 11, 2016
    Thank you very much for your answer Critter Mom!

    You're absolutely right, it is vital to have multiple sources, opinions and advices before I begin something on my own. That's why I spend hours of research on her disease mechanism and berberine, to find any infos.

    There's just 2 holistic vets in my area, I called one and we directly talked about Berberine but he admitted having no knowledge on its use. That's why I search on internet, and when I will find an appropriate dosage, I will of course inform about all the supplement treatment to my traditional vet for checking and monitoring her evolution and any benefit effects/ side effects . (he already know that I plan to use it when she'll be off cortisone)
    I will also go to see the second holistic vet try to discuss all that with him.

    I mailed few holistic vet worldwide but no answers for the moment.
    But I also mailed many scientists that have studied Berberine compound and made experiments/studies on it recently published, and two of them answered me for the moment

    the first one told me " I can confirm you that Berberine is safe for mild, long term use, the only side effect reported was little diarrhea that can be overcomed in dividing the dose throughout the day. But those experiences were on humans and rats models, not cats."

    And the second one answered me : " I remember seeing one study including cats with a 25mg/kg/day dosage with no adverse effects, but the Berberine administration study lasted two weeks, so there is no long term data for cats, but I suspect it should be safe for long term use like any other species. If you decide to do so, for long term use I recommend you continuous safely doses instead of 3months cure and pauses between " (as I was asking if it was better to make cures with pauses for a long term treatment)

    Also I saw some testimonials/products on the web for Golden seal root extract for cats. And the main thing contained in this plant is berberine.

    I found also this question on a vet cat asking site : http://www.justanswer.com/cat-health/7f6gb-cat-taking-berberine-once-day-strong-bitter.html

    "my cat is taking berberine once a day and it has a strong bitter taste. How can I reduce that bitter taste "

    and the vet expert answered : "If the Berberine has been dispensed in a pill form, then you can crush it and mix it with Val Syrup which has a sweet taste which most cats like. I wouldn't expect that Dusty will just lick if off of a spoon, though; you'll probably still have to use a syringe to squirt it into the side of this mouth.
    It it's been dispensed to you in a liquid form, then I would add a small amount of the VAL Syrup to it first before administering."



    So based on all that, I think the Berberine is at least not a toxic supplement for cats. BUT again of course I need to search more to find an appropriate safe dosage. (and my vet will follow her of course, with her disease, it's almost a complete blood check per month to see the disease evolution when she'll be off cortisone)

    Thanks again for your help!! I'll check your links aswell
     
    Callie & Patches likes this.
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