Arthritis or neuropathy? (short video of Bronx walking)

Discussion in 'Lantus / Basaglar (glargine) and Levemir (detemir)' started by Bronx's dad (GA), Oct 24, 2018.

  1. Bronx's dad (GA)

    Bronx's dad (GA) Well-Known Member

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    Bronx seems to be walking now on his front hocks, and those thumps you hear in the video is him. Is it possible this is neuropathy and not from arthritis? Or a combination of both? His rear legs seem fine and, from what I read, neuropathy shows up as weak hind legs. He never walks more than a few feet before laying down, unless the vacuum monster comes out of the closet, then he moves rather fast :p. Shaved spot on the back is for pet sitter to shoot, since I just had to travel.

     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2018
  2. Bobbie And Bubba

    Bobbie And Bubba Well-Known Member

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    Oh, Paul, that hurts watching......... I too was under the impression that neuropathy effected the hind legs and don't know if it can effect the front legs.....

    Hope some peeps will weigh in. Looks like you are all ready giving him B12. :bighug:
     
  3. Bronx's dad (GA)

    Bronx's dad (GA) Well-Known Member

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    here is another short video that shows how he puts all his weight on the front hocks

     
  4. Christie & Maverick

    Christie & Maverick Well-Known Member

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    I wish I knew for sure, I watched the video more than a few times, I somehow feel like it's more of a limp motion, and I noticed the front right leg is turned a bit inward. I'm not sure if that is significant. I had always thought neuropathy was hind legs too. There is a bit of a flattening of the front paws, I see he's not on stepping on his paw pads, but there's a give in the first joint, like he's not straight into the step but angled. I don't know if I'm describing it right.
     
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  5. Bronx's dad (GA)

    Bronx's dad (GA) Well-Known Member

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    1.5mg in capsule form every day
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2018
  6. Bronx's dad (GA)

    Bronx's dad (GA) Well-Known Member

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    Yep, that's exactly it.
     
  7. Christie & Maverick

    Christie & Maverick Well-Known Member

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    I'm trying to find a video often posted here of back leg neuropathy...I'd sure like to compare the movement. I'll post it here if I find it.
     
  8. PussCatPrince - GA

    PussCatPrince - GA Well-Known Member

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    Hhmmm.

    Ty had neuropathy & it doesn't look like feline neuropathy to me but I'm no vet.

    Watching it over and over it looks like the right front leg is bowing out from the hip perhaps due to a joint issue. The left front leg displays like carpal hyperextension.

    Has he clunked himself somehow and now is compensating for a painful joint .
     
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  9. Christie & Maverick

    Christie & Maverick Well-Known Member

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  10. Rob W. & Emmett

    Rob W. & Emmett Member

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    Which b12 are you giving? Zobaline?

    To give you an idea. Emmett was kinda walking heavy but not to the degree of Bronxy there. But I've been giving him 3000 mcg (or 3mg) of Zobaline B12 since June. Not sure, but I think he's a lot better...but it may be due to his green streak too...
     
  11. Bronx's dad (GA)

    Bronx's dad (GA) Well-Known Member

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    Methylcobalamin B-12 1.5mg/day
     
  12. Bronx's dad (GA)

    Bronx's dad (GA) Well-Known Member

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  13. PussCatPrince - GA

    PussCatPrince - GA Well-Known Member

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    Found it !



    @JeffJ knows a lot about this
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2018
  14. Christie & Maverick

    Christie & Maverick Well-Known Member

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  15. Bronx's dad (GA)

    Bronx's dad (GA) Well-Known Member

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    The acro causes all that bony growth.
     
  16. PussCatPrince - GA

    PussCatPrince - GA Well-Known Member

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    Bronx does not seem low & wobbly on his rear hocks. Is he?
     
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  17. Christie & Maverick

    Christie & Maverick Well-Known Member

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    Yes...you'd think so. You can see (I think) some arthritis in the hind legs, but I can't see neuropathy?
     
  18. PussCatPrince - GA

    PussCatPrince - GA Well-Known Member

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    That is what I see. I shall try to find the bit of vid of Ty walking.
     
  19. Bronx's dad (GA)

    Bronx's dad (GA) Well-Known Member

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    Not walking on rear hocks. He does have a lot of bony growth in his front shoulder area that must be causing some pain. Maybe putting weight on the front hocks makes walking less painful?
     
  20. PussCatPrince - GA

    PussCatPrince - GA Well-Known Member

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    I am wondering if he has been compensating for one shoulder/front leg by shifting weight to the other front leg and now that 'wrist' - ligaments etc - is feeling the strain.
     
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  21. Bronx's dad (GA)

    Bronx's dad (GA) Well-Known Member

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    That could be the case. I've tried every sort of supplement. Wendy mentioned acupuncture, I may have to try that.
     
  22. PussCatPrince - GA

    PussCatPrince - GA Well-Known Member

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    OK. I found it. Bit tough to watch through again but needs must .
    It's not too good and blurry in places BUT watch at around 1.26 and you will clearly see Ty's neuropathy wobbling his rear legs and he is quite down on his hocks. This causes him to lose his balance a bit which he corrects with his front legs , however his front paws are not walking down on their wrists like Bronx is doing with his left front leg.

    To add: Ty had been on B12 for around 2 months by then and there had been quite some improvement with the rear leg walking.

     
  23. Bronx's dad (GA)

    Bronx's dad (GA) Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, that is definitely not what Bronx is doing. He is a bit wobbly, but I think he's transferring the pain from one side to the other when he walks.
     
  24. PussCatPrince - GA

    PussCatPrince - GA Well-Known Member

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    It may be that a wrist brace will help Bronx. It would rest the tendons. I doubt he would be open to physio.

    Acupuncture does relieve pain.
     
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  25. Bronx's dad (GA)

    Bronx's dad (GA) Well-Known Member

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    They make wrist braces for cats?
     
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  26. Christie & Maverick

    Christie & Maverick Well-Known Member

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    I did an electric stimulation physiotherapy for my old drooler, very similar to acupuncture, and I think it helped his arthritis. I'd suggest treadmill hydrotherapy too, but I can't see Bronx enjoying that :smuggrin:
     
  27. Christie & Maverick

    Christie & Maverick Well-Known Member

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    They make them for dogs, why not cats too!
     
  28. Krystina & Nelli

    Krystina & Nelli Well-Known Member

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    Definitely neuropathy. Nelli fell into neuropathy- full-on front legs. Asked my “vet”, confused because I thought neuropathy caused back leg hock-walk. He said no, not always.
    Nelli, has arthritis too- again, the walk that Bronx is displaying is most definitely neuropathy… I say (with confidence), that from recent first-hand experience.
     
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  29. PussCatPrince - GA

    PussCatPrince - GA Well-Known Member

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    Oh dear @Bronx's dad . See. Ask us lot and we all see something different. :p

    Can you plonk up a bit of vid ? Not just for Bronx Dad but for everyone else.

    Out of interest does Nelli also have the rear plantigrade stance.
     
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  30. JeffJ

    JeffJ Well-Known Member

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    Leo has a similar gait, but not quite as pronounced as Bronx.

    Both the vet and I, attribute it to arthritis or bony growths from the Acro. And Leo has been fairly well regulated for about 18 months. We are now giving a small amount of bupe to help with any pain.
     
  31. Krystina & Nelli

    Krystina & Nelli Well-Known Member

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    That was next... took a while after (front)- several weeks.
    Yes... of course- a before and after vid.
    I must, must wait til AM. I am exhausted Paul. Thought, back and forth whether I should pipe in tonight at all, obviously I did.
    Promises I will post vid early in AM :)!
    Promises
     
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  32. PussCatPrince - GA

    PussCatPrince - GA Well-Known Member

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    You should post the vid when you are rested. It all helps anyone and everyone.
    We pool our thoughts and experience. That's family.
     
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  33. Krystina & Nelli

    Krystina & Nelli Well-Known Member

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    Muah. I am aware and graciously agree :kiss:.
    Promised I will do... soon.
    Ni ni
     
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  34. Jill & Alex (GA)

    Jill & Alex (GA) Senior Member Moderator

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    If it is neuropathy, you can give up to 10 mg of methyl B12 daily according to the info found here: http://www.bigorangegoodness.com/.

    Click on "Dosage Info".
     
  35. Susan&Felix

    Susan&Felix Well-Known Member

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    Bronx sure is handsome, bless his heart. Sending comfortable-wrist vines.

    :bighug:
     
  36. JanetNJ

    JanetNJ Well-Known Member

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    I would up the b12. Double or triple it. Also if it's a combination of neuropathy and arthritis ask about adding adequan shots.
     
  37. LizzieInTexas

    LizzieInTexas Well-Known Member

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    Aaawww. My poor Bronx boy :bighug:

    Did this just start or has it just continued to get worse? Are you giving any B12 shots (I think you are, but can't remember)? What does the vet think? Maybe an xray to see what the joints show?

    Does he shrink from your touch anywhere? Hind quarters/front shoulders? Does he allow you to touch his paws?

    I hope you get some answers and Bronx gets some relief.
     
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  38. Bellasmom

    Bellasmom Well-Known Member

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    Sending vines and hugs:bighug::bighug:
     
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  39. Krystina & Nelli

    Krystina & Nelli Well-Known Member

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    Good morning...
    I don’t really have a good vid of Nelli walking only on the front elbows... not done looking :)
    I know you give Bronx supplements for arthritis IMHO I’d check into the shot (form) of administering b-12. I know it’s available and I know it’s effect is near immediate. -Don’t go with an Rx of Adequan yet stay with purity (supplements) for now.
    I agree with @JanetNJ that you might want to increase B-12.
     
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  40. Krystina & Nelli

    Krystina & Nelli Well-Known Member

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    I want to mention this. When Nelli had neuropathy pretty dang bad I got her on the consequent right away- although I was told by different sources that until the diabetes comes under control I would not see any improvement with the neuropathy. In other words message I was receiving, cosequine is basically a waste of money until the diabetes became better regulated; under control.
    Well I ignored that and have been giving her 2 3mg tablets of consequence a day… It clearly was not working. As soon as diabetes started getting regulated the neuropathy quickly started reversing!
    She is not completely walking up on front paws yet- getting much, much better.
    Her rear legs came up first and also rather quickly.
    Arthritis:
    As I think you know Nelli has arthritis. I had her on Antanol (great stuff), https://antinolforpets.com/cats, seem to work very well. I took her off the Antinol, started the cosequine which seems to be working… This is a heck of a lot cheaper! 30 tablets $34.95 One a day, I called company and got the greenlight on up to four or five a day. Ended up giving her for a day if you do the math on 30 tablets at $35.95 you’ll see how expensive it was for us.
    Check out Methyl B-12 injections :)
     
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  41. Krystina & Nelli

    Krystina & Nelli Well-Known Member

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    A “biggie” I forgot to mention!
    Rub his legs, one long rub, from top to paw. He’ll like that if it is neuropathy and his lower legs (maybe only paws) will feel cold/cool, again if it is (it is, trust me,)
    Can’t believe I didn’t mention this a while back. This is a, hands down, for sure sign to you that neuropathy is the cause
     
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  42. Shawna & Davidson (GA)

    Shawna & Davidson (GA) Well-Known Member

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    My suggestion is to take him to the vet and get some xrays or scans........with all good intentions everyone here tried to give advise based on our (their) personal experience which is wonderful. But nobody is a vet and checking with Mr Google or other Mr Seaches often brings an array of self help fixes.

    Myself and others thought Davidson has arthritis, weakness in legs due to low potassium and I gave him whatever I could only to find out he had a brain tumour. This caused the pressing of nerves down his neck and spine to compress and this resulted in his walking issues. Not trying to scare you, but reality is if it’s that bad and going on in spite of some improvement, check it out at the vet.

    The earlier you can get a DX the better it is for a recovery, although sadly not in all cases.

    I hope you find out what’s wrong, sending vines your way.
     
  43. Ana & Frosty (GA)

    Ana & Frosty (GA) Well-Known Member

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    I’ve never had a cat with arthritis, but this does not look like neuropathy :( poor little Bronx!! Ugh.

    Just wondering - is another dose of SRT an option for him or no? I know it’s super expensive and I know the first round didn’t work. But I’m just curious.

    Hope he feels better with some suggestions here
     
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  44. Rob W. & Emmett

    Rob W. & Emmett Member

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    I don't know if it's neuropathy or not, for that matter I don't even know if Emmett had/has it. But I believe I read somewhere on here that B12 alone will not be absorbed very well by a cat. Need the folic acid as well. I think someone on here makes their own, but that's why Zobaline is easier (has b12 and the folic acid). Folic acid allows for the absorption of the b12...even for humans it makes for better absorption. At 1500mcg of just B12 I'm not sure that's anywhere near enough...but I'm no vet. You may need like 6000mcg or something to account for absorption...Zobaline I just give the 3000mcg pill once a day. But your guy has accro...not sure. I even give my non-diabetic cat Zobaline (she's Emmett's sister)...it's overall good for the cat anyway..
     
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  45. Wendy&Neko

    Wendy&Neko Senior Member Moderator

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    I agree with Sheena, get him checked out by a vet, including x-rays. Arthritis and bone growths are fairly common with acros. Can it be treated? Who knows, gotta know what you are dealing with first. Neko had a bony growth on her jaw that was removed. @Jeff had a bony growth removed from Leo's leg/foot. Gurkan had gold implants done on Raffy - first I've heard of that as a treatment.
    Neko had SRT a second time, first cat but not the last cat to ever have that done. We don't know that SRT didn't work for Bronx. I think it did work some because Bronx's dose has come down meaning less growth hormone being produced. The full effects of SRT can take two years to be felt and it's not two years yet. However, SRT does not lower the IGF-1 produced. And that IGF-1 is responsible for some soft tissue growths so I wouldn't count on it as a "cure" for what's currently bothering Bronx.
     
  46. Pamela & Amethyst

    Pamela & Amethyst Well-Known Member

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    love light and healing:bighug::bighug::bighug::bighug::bighug::bighug:
     
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  47. Ana & Frosty (GA)

    Ana & Frosty (GA) Well-Known Member

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    Oh, it doesn’t? How does it work then?
     
  48. Wendy&Neko

    Wendy&Neko Senior Member Moderator

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    SRT neuters the tumour cells and eventually they die off. Though if any are left, it can come back. As it did with Neko. SRT will lower the amount of growth hormone being produced, which lowers the insulin resistance and hence the dose required. IGF-1 may or may not be impacted. So it's generally not recommended to retest. Mostly because it can be disappointing. Some people have retested after SRT and seen the numbers go up. :( One of the hopes of the research into cabergoline as a treatment was that it would lower the IGF-1. Unfortunately, not what the data showed.
     
  49. PussCatPrince - GA

    PussCatPrince - GA Well-Known Member

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    I'd go along with this.
     
  50. Ana & Frosty (GA)

    Ana & Frosty (GA) Well-Known Member

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    Oh yes, duh. I was thinking GH, not IGF-1. I need to review my hormones

    I’m starting to regret not taking that neurosurgery job i was interviewing for before I took my current job. I would be an expert on all of this.

    (Well, at least in humans!)
     
  51. Bronx's dad (GA)

    Bronx's dad (GA) Well-Known Member

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    You definitely caught the acro more early on than I did with Bronx. He had a strange gait from like 9 or 10 yrs old and I just thought it was arthritis setting in. Wish I caught the acro sooner than I did :(
     
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  52. Bronx's dad (GA)

    Bronx's dad (GA) Well-Known Member

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    He is on adequan shots. I will increase the B-12.
     
  53. Bronx's dad (GA)

    Bronx's dad (GA) Well-Known Member

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    I never heard that could happen. Thanks for letting me know
     
  54. Bronx's dad (GA)

    Bronx's dad (GA) Well-Known Member

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    I did use both folic acid drops & B-12 as suggested by someone here as a cheap alternative to Zobaline. I just ordered more folic acid, thanks for reminding me about that
     
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  55. Krystina & Nelli

    Krystina & Nelli Well-Known Member

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    Can’t look back Paul. Don’t live in a “what if” world. I have gotten to know you thru your post, SS, signature and a few PM’s.
    Gosh, you are doing everything- SO much more so than many others I’ve “visited.” Please don’t regret anything. Don’t look back... only if/ what if. Look at all you give to Bronx today:bighug:.
    Dang!?!
     
  56. Bronx's dad (GA)

    Bronx's dad (GA) Well-Known Member

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    I will try that, thanks!
     
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  57. Krystina & Nelli

    Krystina & Nelli Well-Known Member

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    Muah ;)
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2018
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  58. Ana & Frosty (GA)

    Ana & Frosty (GA) Well-Known Member

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    How could you have known? Even vets miss these pituitary conditions sometimes. No one can ever diagnose Cushing’s, for instance. In hindsight it always seems so obvious. I think you take great care of Bronx- look at all those supplements! I know it’s hard not to be hard on yourself but I think you’re doing a great job!
     
  59. PussCatPrince - GA

    PussCatPrince - GA Well-Known Member

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    That old saying innit. Hindsight is a wonderful thing .
    You do a fab job . Don't knock yourself.

    Are you considering a wee vet visit?

    That may be an ECID thing. It didn't have that effect for Ty although it did help the IBD I felt.
     
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  60. Bronx's dad (GA)

    Bronx's dad (GA) Well-Known Member

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    He was too young to have that arthritic gait. I just shrugged it off as getting arthritis early and started turmeric thinking that is all he needed.
     
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  61. Bronx's dad (GA)

    Bronx's dad (GA) Well-Known Member

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    Yes, he is due for BW so will ask about x-rays and acupuncture.
     
  62. PussCatPrince - GA

    PussCatPrince - GA Well-Known Member

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    That is actually not unreasonable. Many children and young people can get arthritis early. My late Mum being one. It isn't necessarily an old age/geriatric thing
     
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  63. Chubba (GA)

    Chubba (GA) Well-Known Member

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    Sending more vines for Bronx.
    :bighug::bighug::bighug:
     
  64. JeffJ

    JeffJ Well-Known Member

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    This is a good point by Wendy. The SRT is not really a full cure. And with Leo, his issue with his front legs and the odd walking gait has gotten worse in the last 6 months.

    It is very unfortunate, but we know with our Acro kittehs that we have to give them 18 years of loving in a shorter time period. I have always felt the brightest candles burned the quickest, and that's how we think of Leo.
     
  65. Ana & Frosty (GA)

    Ana & Frosty (GA) Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, but what’s the alternative? Being a hypochondriac and freaking out over every symptom? My sister is like that, and he pets have been through a lot of unnecessary tests, and causes everyone a lot of stress. She called me hysterical the other day because her cat has been drooling for the last few days. (It went away with antibiotics and nausea medicine.) .... yeah.

    Since anxiety runs in my family, and particularly since cats tend to be really anxious in unfamiliar situations, I actually think a “less is more” approach is better than being overly worried and paranoid.

    I’ve gotten more laid back over the years. It took me a while to get Frosty’s vomiting addressed, and once we started him on meds for it, he went downhill and died after 5 weeks. Before that he would bounce back within a day or 2 with no intervention. Sometimes I wonder if I should have just let him vomit once every couple of weeks and maybe he would still be here.

    My civvie has had a lipoma on her leg for the past year or 2 and its gotten bigger. They did a fine needle aspiration and said yeah it looks like fat cells. But it’s grown and I think I should probably address it soon, but I’ve been putting it off. It doesn’t seem to bother her and I honestly don’t wanna put her through vet visits and surgery right now. It will be super stressful and what if something goes wrong? Idk...

    I think you did the best you could in the situation at that time. I bet if you took him to the vet they would have said “yep, arthritis” and tried to treat conservatively in the beginning too. No one wants to do an invasive and expensive test every time. At first you treat conservatively with some pain meds or whatever , and then if it worsens or doesn’t go away you start the million dollar workup.

    Anyway, that’s how I look at it. I think you did everything right.
     
  66. Rosie & Bailey

    Rosie & Bailey Well-Known Member

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    Sending healing vines for Bronx.
    :bighug::bighug::bighug::bighug::bighug:
     
  67. Bronx's dad (GA)

    Bronx's dad (GA) Well-Known Member

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    Took Bronx to vet today for another issue (will start a new condo about that), but also showed her the walking video. She said right away that is neuropathy and wants to try Gaba again. So I will up the B-12 to 4.5mg/day and we started Gaba 50mg BID. Also said Gaba is good for the issue I brought him in for. Thanks everyone for chiming in :)
     
  68. Krystina & Nelli

    Krystina & Nelli Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for update :)
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2018
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  69. Rosie & Bailey

    Rosie & Bailey Well-Known Member

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    Hope the gaba and the extra B12 work well for Bronx :)
     
  70. JeffJ

    JeffJ Well-Known Member

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    Ok, I'll restart Leo on Zobaline as well. We have him pretty regulated.
     
  71. Casey Warner

    Casey Warner Member

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    Is the vet sure that Bronx's flat-footedness in the left front paw is neuropathy and not carpal hyperextension? I'm curious because Brownie is flat-footed in the front paws, but I'm almost 100% certain it's carpal hyperextension.
     
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  72. PussCatPrince - GA

    PussCatPrince - GA Well-Known Member

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    Now. Y'see. I thought it looked & sounded just that way & posted as such. It's just that one paw but the other front leg has an unusual stance which is due to the acro I believe.

    I suppose time will tell given the B12.
     
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  73. Ella & Rusty & Stu(GA)

    Ella & Rusty & Stu(GA) Well-Known Member

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    No advice, only extra strong vines for Bronx to walk with less pain. I hope the B-12 and gaba will help.
    :bighug::bighug::bighug:
     
  74. Bronx's dad (GA)

    Bronx's dad (GA) Well-Known Member

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    https://wagwalking.com/cat/condition/carpal-hyperextension

    He does show these symptoms, only option they say is surgery to fuse the joint if it is carpal hyperextension and not neuropahy :(. I will see how/if the B-12/Gaba works and reevaluate. I asked Bronx what he thinks, he said he don't want no surgery and is just peachy layin' on his heated bed :)

    20181028_100224.jpg
     
  75. Krystina & Nelli

    Krystina & Nelli Well-Known Member

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    Jul 4, 2018
    I agree with Bronx :bighug:
    @Bronx's dad, when @Sue and Luci, suggested to me- put some rice in a sock, heat in the microwave to warm Nelli ears before I poke, she also went on to tell me that she rubs the warm rice filled sock on Luci body and it makes her feel really good. I am now doing this with Nelli- she has lots of arthritis and really really likes me rubbing the warm sock full of rice up and down her spine and up and down her legs :cat:.
    I’ve been thinking about Bronx liking this too :cat:?!
     
  76. PussCatPrince - GA

    PussCatPrince - GA Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2017
    Quality link there.
    I don't blame Bronx. I wouldn't either.

    All hopes for neuropathy and that B12/Gaba picks this up in no time at all.
     
    Bronx's dad (GA) likes this.

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