BaileyUK requesting Mel please look at ss

Hello Mel,hope you and the fur gang are all well.
I read with great interest your description of the frown and bell curve when a cat is on too much insulin.Bailey is on Lantus and a year down the line I worry that he may be on too much,as the odd day his numbers are higher at nadir time,I find his ss so confusing as some days he is just high and flat,he also has started throwing the odd pink number,this has really freaked me as for 6 months he was only yellow,blue & greens.(I didn't appreciate at the time how well we were doing!!)
As you can see from his ss I have recently upped his dose,and 6 cycles later on 11th Nov he has a brilliant nadir of 2.7 (a little too low for comfort for me!!) then at PMPS he was 5.3!! So back down we went to previous dose.
I hear conflicting opinions on how to tell if the dose is too high,my vet says it would be high and low numbers,other people say it would be high and flat with no lows! There doesn't seem to be any pattern or consistency with my boy,and I really don't know if I am going in the right direction,I feel very despondent with myself,as I don't seem to understand this tricky FD any more now than when we first began this sugar dance. Would you please when you have time take a look at Baileys ss and give me your valued opinion,we would be so grateful.
Sending happy & healthy wishes to you all in R Lantus Land, for a peaceful weekend. Diane & Bailey

 

Ah-ha just the person I was about to go track down...

We have a little girl here right now that is on your side of the pond with P-titis as well and could use some food recommendations. Would you mind stopping by Aine and Saoirse's condo while I go have a look at Lord Bailey's spreadsheet and sharing what you have found that agrees with his Lordship's tummy?

BRB

Mel and The Fur Gang

 

On the case Mel!

 

If you are referring to the last few days after the reduction when he went below 50. Nope not too much insulin, just a bounce clearing. From what I can see and granted I didn't go back months and months just the last few weeks. He is curving the right way for a Lantus cat. He is slowly siding down from preshot to nadir and then sliding slowly back up to preshot again, exactly as he is suppose to.

The few out of pattern numbers that I'm seeing are from him going lower than he should and earning himself a reduction and then the resulting bounce afterwards. Too much insulin gives you one of two types of patterns.

1) Being the they go up after preshot to around +6 and then drop back down as the insulin begins to wear off example would be amps 250, +3-300, +6-400, +9-300, pmps- 250 to keep the rise and fall simple.

or

2) A check mark to the curve. Where they have dropped well down for a day or two and then suddenly straight line it up only to have a major drop towards the end of the cycle. then a sharp rise again by pmps. So that would look like amps-250, +2-300, +4-350, +6-400, +8-200, +10-150, pmps-350 so it makes a checkmark or the other way around high amps with a quick drop by around +4-ish then a straight line back up and then hang in those high numbers for days on end in either case.

Make sense?

Mel and The Fur Gang

 

Thanks Mel,you explain things so well,I do understand it better now.
So if he is not on too much insulin do you think his numbers are OK on this dose? it seems that if I increase by just .25 it pushes him into low numbers that we presume will dip lower thru the night,this being the worrying bit as I cannot test thru the night.I am not looking to get him into remission,I just worry about damage to his little body when he goes into high numbers,I just want to keep him safe,it's such a tricky illness.thanks again Mel I trust and appreciate your knowledge.
Have a good weekend,don't do too much house DIY work!!

 

Yep he's looking really good right now, just need to let him settle into the new dose reduction and with his complicating factors it might take him a little longer than the standard 3-5 cycles to do it, as I'm not really sure how a bounce also effects the p-titis.

I know with Autumn before we found her hypothyroidism she took forever to decide if she like a dose or not. Had I tried to use Tight Regulation with her she would have been doing her best impression of a rubber super ball. She drove me batty until I realized I just had to wait her out and let her quit bouncing before I could shift the dose again. Of course she is now back to driving me batty, but that is because I think she just might be thinking about giving up the dance floor altogether. (fingers crossed)

One thing my mother actually taught me as she was also diabetic was to watch the meter averages. And to not only look across the spreadsheet but down as well. If the average and the numbers going down the SS were still dropping she was still settling, if they flattened out then it was time to reassess the dose.

Mel and The Fur Gang

 

Wouldn't it be wonderful if Autumn gave up the dancing! I really hope she does.
Bailey has had a good day today with his numbers,+6 124. PMPS 178. Well done Mr Bailes,but as we all know tomorrow is another day!!!

 

Hope Bailey's numbers settle down soon, DIane. He's blessed to have such a loving mum.

 

I wonder if I could hijack you thread for a second

Remi has been doing really well on lantus and Thrive complete chicken food. However I am slightly concerned to keep him on the thrive permanently because it is so high in protein and his urea levels are raised slightly. I am not sure if that's so good long term.

remi has IBD and I know Bailey has pancreatitis like remi (remi's is chronic) and so like Aine finding the right food is a major stressor. I don't want anything too high in fat but obviously in reducing protein I know it will increase. I also want a food that is about 4% calories from carbs as he is dropping fast on lantus at the moment and it has been suggested that a 4% carb content might help slow that down.

I am sure I have asked you before when I first joined but what food have you tried for Bailey and what did you settle on? I was thinking either the granatapet symphonie

http://www.happykittycompany.co.uk/coll ... icken-200g

Or there is the one you can get at Pets at Home -natures menu? But not sure what the carb content it is.

Any insight gratefully received.

 

It is a real juggling act to find the right food,I think we are very limited in the UK, our friends across the pond seem to have much more choice.so for what it's worth this is what I have found to be the best quality to feed my boy.
I buy from the happy kitty co. GranataPet Symphonies Pure Chicken,I have tried all the other flavours in the symphony,and now just buy the chicken. I also buy from them GranataPet delicatessen I only use one flavour in that group as the other one I tried had quite a few lumps of congealed fat in it.will post you directly after I send you this with the flavour,as its in German on the tin,and I will have to go to their website to look it up!! These two foods from HKCo smell and look superior to most UK foods. The other food Bailey has is Lilys Kitchen Turkey,and Lilys Kitchen Chicken these are NOT the cheap versions of L. Kitchen that Tesco are now selling,but the original,they are 99pence a foil tray.if you buy them on line they are cheaper if you buy 15 of each flavour,or if you want to try first Waitrose sell them.
Also Natures Menu Chicken & Turkey is very good. These are by far the best foods I have found,and believe me I have spent many hours loitering in pet food isles! There doesn't seem to be a perfect answer to the food question,Bailey has an atrophied kidney,so I worry about his diet being too high in protein, and the phosphorus content of his food,also in Lilys Kitchen they have started to put carrot (cheaper than chicken!) so I have always got my hands in the cat food fishing it out,also the carraggenan content bothers me so I get rid of that as well!!
Have you tried poaching chicken breasts,and adding a little of that along with some of the cooking liquid to his meals? I do that for Bailey.
I have had such success with Aloe Vera juice for gastric issues,Baileys tummy was so distended in in area of his Pancreas,and it was as solid as a rock,since he has been on the AV juice it has gone down,and he (touch wood) has had no flare ups,my vet who is VERY well thought of and very experienced (except for FD!) is very impressed,and is recommending it for IBS in problems in other animals,but it HAS to be the right type of AV Juice. Hope this is of some help,any more questions just ask.

 

Just taken a look at H C Co website,and it was the Duck & Chicken that I buy,the veal & rabbit was the fatty one,if you get around to working out the carb contents of the foods I mentioned please let me know,as I have not worked it out,I only know they smell,and look better than most,Bailey likes them,and I do believe they are low in carbs. Diane

 

Sarah,

Zooplus do Kattovit Sensitive Protein Chicken - single source protein. 4.4% cals from carbs, 58% from fats, 47.5% from protein. 10% protein as fed. Limited ingredients (meat, meat by-products (all from chicken), minerals). No added soluble fibre so can cause dry stools. 300g taurine supplement.

Don't know if this will be helpful but salmon oil disagrees big time with Saoirse (wish she could eat the Granatapet Symphonie chicken - it's the best quality food I've tried, by a country mile!). Also, Lily's Kitchen organic trays are what triggered her pancreatitis flare-up - it contains carrageenan. I've been scouting around human IBD sites, and there is a lot of mention of carrageenan causing inflammation.

As you've been reading, the best food I found for Saoirse to date is the Smilla Kitten Food with Chicken but I've had a problem with the quality of the latest batch. So frustrating, because Saoirse had been progressively needing less and less of her meds (2mg ondansetron every 48 hours or so and she was good to go).


Diane,

FYI I got some Nature's Menu chicken & turkey pouches delivered from our local pet shop just now. No joy. She struggled to get any down. I'm delighted that Bailey can eat the NM chicken and the Symphonie. They're the foods I'd love to be able to give Saoirse because they're such great quality. Alas, but it's not to be. She loves the Symphonie, but it doesn't love her back. :sad: Wish I could get it without the salmon oil. :YMSIGH:

17.11.14 - EDITED TO CORRECT TYPO in calorie breakdown above:

Kattovit % cals: P=37.5, F=58.0, C=4.4 (there is a rounding discrepancy on my version of MS Excel which causes the 0.1% error here - suggest adding 0.1% to the carb figure - sorry for the confusion caused by the typo above).

 

I hear what you say Aine about the additives such as carrageenan,but in my long experience of trying to find the best cat food for Bailey there is NO such thing as perfect,they all contain ingredients we think shouldn't be included in cat food,but unless you make it yourself we have to make trade offs!! Carrageenan is used as a thickening agent,and is used a lot in the human food chain,even Ben & Jerrys ice cream! I dread to think of what is included in some pet foods as many of the UK foods don't seem to list ingredients.
Sarah,I can only pass on to you the foods I think are the best quality,that contain no by products(as goodness knows what they mean by that) Bailey suffers with gastric issues including chronic p-titis ,he has been on these foods for over a year now and has been fine,this proves again how right is the saying - every cat is different!

 

your Bailey is one gorgeous kitty.
beautiful.( oops i mean handsome. lol)

 

Bailey says thank you for the compliment,and says you are handsome too!!but aren't they all,I could have a house full.

 

Thanks Diane

That's really helpful. I am so worried about swapping over foods! I am sort of frozen. I just wish that thrive had a little less protein :sad: I think I might try the Granata pet but that salmon oil worries me. I have noticed that people on the pancreatitis forum mention having issues after using fish oil but that might be larger amounts in supplements. It would be perfect without it in.

Aine

Thankyou for the suggestions of the kattovit. I had forgotten about that food. It's almost perfect. Just wish the protein and fat % were switched around. I am going to order some anyway. I can always mix it a little with the thrive I guess.

Have you worked out the calories breakdown of natures menu Aine? Does that have carrageen in it? I think I dismissed it before because it has some rice in it?

 

Sarah, check out Natures Menu websit,I rang their customer care number and they confirmed to me the pouches contain 70% meat, no sugar or additives,and no rice.The person I spoke to was very helpful,and gave me a breakdown of contents,might be worth a call!

 

Hello, ladies.

Here's the nutrition info from the Nature's Menu website for the chicken & turkey pouch:

Composition: Chicken (min 55%), Broth (28%), Turkey (min 15%), Minerals.

Analytical Constituents: Protein (10%), Crude Oils & Fats (6.5%), Crude Ash (2.5%), Crude Fibres (0.4%), Moisture (79%).

Additives (per kg): Taurine (200mg/kg), Vitamin A (2.000iu/kg), Vitamin D3 (320iu/kg), Vitamin E (30mg/kg). Trace Elements: Potassium iodide (0.2mg/kg), Manganese oxide (2.1mg/kg), Zinc sulphate monohydrate (10mg/kg), Zinc sulphate monohydrate (10mg/kg).

On the box it says that it contains natural chondiatrin and glucosamine.

Calories: Protein 36.5%, Fat 57.6%, Carbs 5.8%

As DIane says, it's really good quality food. Neither of my girls like the chicken & turkey. :roll: Lúnasa lurves the chicken, salmon and tuna, but I'm not even going to attempt to trial Saoirse on it because of the salmon. It is so hard to finally find quality foods that have not been messed about with and still not be able to feed them to her. :YMSIGH:

Diane,

Thank you for the suggestion on the other thread for the Hi-Life. I'll check it out. Saoirse started on the Nutramed today. I mixed it in with her food and she ate it OK. I'll let you both know how she gets on with it.

Sarah,

I added a little psyllium husk to Saoirse's Kattovit and it made her poops better today. The previous ones were like bullets because Kattovit has no soluble fibre added to it. If you need to do similar for Remi, only a tiny, tiny, amount of psyllium needs to be added to the food. (Basically show it the packet. :smile: )

 

Mel

Sorry to hijack your thread I hope it is useful for you too.

So to recap this is the information that Aine has kindly provided in this thread and also in other conversations we have had. These are all foods available in the UK.

Kattovit Sensitive Protein Chicken - single source protein.
47.5% from protein
58% from fats
4.4% cals from carbs

10% protein as fed. Limited ingredients (meat, meat by-products (all from chicken), minerals). No added soluble fibre so can cause dry stools. 300g taurine supplement.

Nature's Menu website chicken & turkey pouch:
Calories:
Protein 36.5%
Fat 57.6%
Carbs 5.8%

Composition: Chicken (min 55%), Broth (28%), Turkey (min 15%), Minerals.
Analytical Constituents: Protein (10%), Crude Oils & Fats (6.5%), Crude Ash (2.5%), Crude Fibres (0.4%), Moisture (79%).
Additives (per kg): Taurine (200mg/kg), Vitamin A (2.000iu/kg), Vitamin D3 (320iu/kg), Vitamin E (30mg/kg). Trace Elements: Potassium iodide (0.2mg/kg), Manganese oxide (2.1mg/kg), Zinc sulphate monohydrate (10mg/kg), Zinc sulphate monohydrate (10mg/kg).

On the box it says that it contains natural chondiatrin and glucosamine.

Thrive complete chicken breast

% calories Protein 75.3%
%kcal Fat: 22.8%
% kcal carbs: 1.9%

serving per tin 75g
kcal/tin 56

Granatapet Symphonie Chicken:

% calories Protein: 35%
% calories Fat: 40%
% calories carb: 4%

I am probably being stupid but why don't don't these percentages add up to 100%??

 

Kattovit - correction added in relevant post above (typo + MS Excel rounding error in corrected figures).

Nature's Menu Chicken & Turkey Pouch - rounding error in MS Excel accounts for 0.1% discrepancy.

Granatapet Symphonie Chicken - P = 45.1%, F = 50.4%, C=4.5%

Thrive Chicken - P = 75.3%, F = 22.8%, C=1.9%