? Basaglar insulin pens (cheaper than Lantus?!) & Calculating the nutritional content of cat food

Discussion in 'Lantus / Basaglar (glargine) and Levemir (detemir)' started by lovemycat444, Aug 27, 2018.

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  1. lovemycat444

    lovemycat444 Member

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2017
    My cat has Diabetes II. He's mainly been on Lantus for the last 2 years. For the past year he's been on Lantus, currently on 4 units. Since Lantus is so expensive I've gotten the information that Basaglar pens are much more affordable. I'm anxious to change bc I'm so accostomed to using Lantus and don't want to risk making an (over)dosing mistake even though I'm extremely careful, always.

    If anyone has any tips or advice or experience with the Basaglar pens can you please let me know? thank you so much!

    also, most important, is the dosing the same, lantus and basaglar? Thank you!

    The information I was given:

    Basaglar is out now...it's not technically a generic, it's a 'biosimilar'
    of Glargine, as it has the same amino acid sequence as Glargine. They're
    not giving it away...it's about $300 for a pack of 5 pens vs about $400
    for a pack of 5 Glargine pens.

    If you buy a pack of 5 pens, keep them in the fridge, opening them
    one-at-a-time, and keep an open pen for about 4 months (some people even
    keep an open pen for 6 months)....then that pack is actually cheap insulin
    e.g. if the pack lasts 20 months, that's $20/month for Glargine. But the
    initial outlay is steep...
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 17, 2018
    Reason for edit: Edited subject line to reflect the turn in conversation.
  2. Chris & China

    Chris & China Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 10, 2013
    Copied from Health:

    Most of us are buying our Lantus from Canada because it's so much cheaper.

    Marks Marine Pharmacy is great and has saved a lot of kitty lives here!! They also have Basaglar for a lot cheaper!!

    Here's the information on buying insulin from Canada

    I was the first person to try Basaglar so that we'd have some experience with it. My own cat had been on Lantus for several years so I compared them so we'd have some idea what would happen.

    It is dosed the exact same way as Lantus, so if you've been using Lantus, you shouldn't notice any big difference.

    The one thing I did notice was that I had to "start over" on filling the depot.....it took 5-7 days before China's numbers settled back down to where I expected them to be
     
  3. Periwinkle

    Periwinkle Member

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2018
    Is your cat still doing okay with Basaglar? My husband is a diabetic and was switched from Lantus to Baslagar and his numbers are the same. I could use my husbands pen and save a ton of money if my cat was able to use Basaglar. My vet has never heard of it and so is reluctant to give the okay. I am checking on meds from Canada as I type. I get all my sons medication from Canada and have been very pleased.Thanks for the info
     
  4. Amanda and a Loudogg

    Amanda and a Loudogg Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2017
    I don't have any experience with Lantus, as I switched my cat from Vetsulin to Basaglar, but I dose it just like I would with Lantus (using the same protocol). I personally haven't had any issues and I've had a lot of success with my buddy Lou. I think it's worth trying, especially since it's cheaper. I kept going back and forth about Lantus or Basaglar. My vet just wrote the prescription for "Glargine", so I was able to choose which one I wanted. I finally figured if it didn't work how I was hoping, I'd either switch to Lantus or try Levemir. Thankfully Lou's been doing beautifully on a depot insulin. I also ordered mine from Marks Marine Pharmacy in Canada and I got a pack of 5 for $125 or so, whereas the Lantus was around $169 for a pack of 5.
     
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  5. Teresa & Buddy

    Teresa & Buddy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2017
    I have been thinking of changing to Basaglar for a good while. A pharmacist from a local big chain pharmacy in the town where I live, said they did not sell Lantus anymore because of the cost. He said that none of his customers had any complaints with the Basaglar.

    I ordered 5 Basaglar pens from Mark's and they are on their way. I hope this insulin agrees with Buddy, he uses between 6.5 U to 7 U every 12 hrs. When I saw a while back that Amanda and a Loudogg had started using Basaglar, that made me decide the next time I ordered insulin to get the Basaglar.
     
    Amanda and a Loudogg likes this.
  6. Periwinkle

    Periwinkle Member

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2018
    Thanks for the info on Basaglar. I hope my vet okays it. She has never heard of it, so there might be a problem. I have copied all the posts concerning Basaglar and am taking the info with me. I talked to a pharmacist, who said that there is absolutely no difference between Lantus and Basaglar. We'll see
     
  7. Periwinkle

    Periwinkle Member

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2018
    It appears that Basaglar is Vet approved but evidently not ALL vets are aware of it.

    Basaglar Kwikpen for Cats and Dogs
    Basaglar, insulin glargine, is a type of long-acting insulin that lowers blood sugar levels in the body. Insulin is a hormone that is naturally produced by the pancreas to converts sugar (glucose) to energy. Insulin therapy is prescribed to pets with diabetes because they are unable to produce their own insulin or cannot use it properly. Because Basaglar is long acting, it takes several hours to start working and can last for a full 24 hours. Basaglar comes in a KwikPen device that can administer multiple doses as small as 1 unit, simply twist the end dial. Pen needles, sold separately, twist onto the top for ease of injection. For use with U-100 needles only.

    Although the prices at this vet pharmacy are over-priced, they sell basaglar for cats and dogs. Marks is much cheaper.

    https://www.vetrxdirect.com/product...or cats&utm_content=Medications Diabetes_6031


    Janet recommends using the syringes and not the U-100 needles because of the dosages. Cats that need 1/4 or 1/2 doses will need to use the syringes.


    Let me know how Buddy does on the Basaglar.
     
  8. Periwinkle

    Periwinkle Member

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2018
    I just did some more research on the Basaglar and now I don't know what to believe. The Basaglar site below has 159 posts and the people that were switched from Lantas to Basaglar have a great many complaints. They are saying that their glucose levels skyrocketed with Basaglar and their doctors had to up their dosages dramatically and still not good. Some are complaining about weight gain.

    https://www.diabetesdaily.com/blog/generic-basaglar-is-cheaper-than-lantus-but-does-it-work-324843/
     
  9. Amanda and a Loudogg

    Amanda and a Loudogg Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2017
    I read all of that too, and that's why I had a hard time deciding between Basaglar and Lantus. I kept going back and forth. It seemed a lot of humans needed more insulin when they switched to Basaglar, which is very similar to, but not identical to Lantus. Finally, I realized I would just follow the numbers, regardless of which one he was on. If he needed more insulin, I would give it to him per protocol. While every cat is different (ECID), Lou's insulin needs have been decreasing instead of increasing. I personally have not noted any differences that would make me believe the Basaglar really didn't work as well as Lantus works with other cats. One thing to keep in mind is that if you are not finding success with the Basaglar, you can always switch to the Lantus or even Levemir. That was what finally made me decide. I figured it was worth going with the more cost-effective option and if it didn't work, I would switch to Lantus (or go back to my vet for a Levemir prescription). I wish you luck in deciding! :bighug:
     
  10. Teresa & Buddy

    Teresa & Buddy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2017
    I read some of the negative articles, so I talked to a pharmacist who belongs to the same church as I do. The store he works for is a very large chain of pharmacies in the U.S., he told me that none of these stores carry Lantus any longer because of the cost. Instead they carry Basaglar, I told him of the negative articles I had read, he said all their customers had switched to Basaglar and he had not received any complaints. This person is a deacon at my church, so I think he would be truthful. However, I do not know any of the people on line, so I do know if they are truthful.

    I am going to continue to follow Amanda and a Loudogg's lead and give Buddy the Basaglar when it arrives. It should arrive by 9/15/2018. Basaglar is mfg. in Indiana (state where I live) by Eli Lily.
     
  11. Periwinkle

    Periwinkle Member

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2018
     
  12. Periwinkle

    Periwinkle Member

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2018
    Let me know how Buddy does on the Basaglar. I am new to this whole ordeal and have a great many questions. I don't get as fed basis vs dry matter basis.

    Does the ONE can of fancy feast have just 3% carbs or 14 carbs. . If it only has 3% carbs, what is the big deal, since even giving the cat 3 cans a day would be less than 10%. If it 14% per can , then one can would be too many carbs. I am so confused. Below is a response I receive from Chewy.com.

    "I saw your review on the Fancy Feast Grilled Liver & Chicken Feast in Gravy Canned Cat Food and wanted to reach out. I'm terribly sorry to hear your furry friend now has diabetes and we're all sending positive vibes in your direction. If there is a special diet that you're searching for, let us know and we'll help sniff it out for you.


    I did some digging around and see the carbohydrate content for this formula is approximately 3% carbohydrates on an as fed basis and approximately 14% carbohydrates on a dry matter basis. If there are any other formulas you'd like for us to sniff around for carbohydrate information, let us know and we'll put our paws to work for you.


    We're here morning and night to help in any way we can. Please don't hesitate to reach out if there is anything else we can do to help. We're always here for you.


    Kindest regards,


    Heather M.

    Customer Service

    Chewy
     
  13. Teresa & Buddy

    Teresa & Buddy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2017
    My cat Buddy does eat FF Grilled Chicken & Liver w/Gravy, it is a medium carb not a low carb. The reason he eats this MC, instead of a low carb pate is Buddy has chronic pancreatitis. At some time Buddy has got different food aversions from being nauseous from pancreatitis. This flavor of FF is the only canned food he will eat, or he would be eating low carb FF pate.
     
  14. Periwinkle

    Periwinkle Member

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2018

    Thanks for the info. My cat Percy, eats FF Grilled Chicken and Liver w/gravy also. I am trying to transition him to eating other canned cat food but not with much success. After much trial and error, he will eat Merrick Cowboy Cookout but ONLY if the FF is mixed with it. The Merrick Cowboy Cookout was on the recommended list that my vet gave me. The other recommended food he will not touch even when mixed. Forget all the pates and other flavors. I have tried them all.
     
  15. Jill & Alex (GA)

    Jill & Alex (GA) Senior Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2009
    @Periwinkle
    Are you hometesting yet? The reason I'm asking is because you'll want to keep an eye on Percy's BG numbers if he's eating Merrick's Cowboy Cookout. I think your vet may have given you an an outdated list. Merrick changed the formula awhile back. Here's the nutritional composition for the new formula:

    Protein = 45%
    Fat = 37%
    Carbs = 18%
    mg Phosphorus/100 kg = 327
    calories per 5.5 oz = 155

    Unfortunately, this makes the newer formula a high carb food. I wish they didn't change it. Mine used to like it, too. :(

    CAT FOOD - NUTRITIONAL COMPOSITION
    Data compiled by Lisa A. Pierson, DVM (2017)
     
  16. Periwinkle

    Periwinkle Member

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2018
    OMG! Is the carb content on a as fed basis or dry basis. I am so confused!

    This is what Merrick sent me regarding Cowboy Cookout

    Thank you for reaching out to us. The carb content of this recipe is 4.40%. If you have any other concerns please let us know. Thank you and have a great day!


    Sincerely,

    Jo Miller
    Pet Parent Relations, Merrick Pet Care, Inc.
    www.merrickpetcare.com | www.castorpolluxpet.com | www.zukes.com
    Join us on Facebook!
    http://www.facebook.com/merrickpetcare
    http://www.facebook.com/castorpolluxpet
    https://www.facebook.com/ZukesPets
     
  17. Periwinkle

    Periwinkle Member

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2018
    I have just started to home test. Percy was just diagnosed and put on insulin 10 days ago. My vet told me that it will take at least 2 weeks for the insulin to start working. His glucose levels today were in the low 200's. When I had him tested a week ago at the vet his levels were in the 300's but the stress elevated his levels.

    Cowboy Cookout

    Ingredients
    Ingredients as published by the cat food manufacturer:

    Deboned Beef, Beef Broth, Beef Liver, Dried Egg Product, Peas, Natural Flavor, Potato Starch, Potato, Carrots, Cranberries, Organic Alfalfa, Calcium Carbonate, Salt, Potassium Chloride, Cassia Gum, Carrageenan, Guar Gum, Sodium Phosphate, Salmon Oil, Minerals (Zinc Amino Acid Complex, Iron Amino Acid Complex, Manganese Amino Acid Complex, Copper Amino Acid Complex, Potassium Iodide, Cobalt Glucoheptonate, Sodium Selenite), Vitamins (Vitamin E Supplement, Vitamin B12 Supplement, d-Calcium Pantothenate, Vitamin A Supplement, Niacin, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Riboavin Supplement, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Folic Acid, Biotin, Thiamine Mononitrate), Taurine, Choline Chloride, Yucca Schidigera Extract

    The carbs according to this are 3.9% on an as fed basis but the dry analysis is 21%. I don't really understand the difference.

    Guaranteed Analysis on an as fed basis

    Nutritional information as published by the cat food manufacturer.*

    Protein: (min)
    9.0%
    Fat: (min)
    3.0%
    Fiber: (max)
    1.2%

    Carbs: (est)
    3.9%
    Ash: (est)
    1.9%
    Moisture: (max)
    81.0%
    Dry Matter Analysis
    The manufacturer's published guaranteed analysis values normalized for moisture content.

    Protein: (min)
    47%
    Fat: (min)
    16%
    Fiber: (max)
    6%

    Carbs: (est)
    21%
    Ash: (est)
    10%
    Calories: (est)
    71/100g

    http://catfooddb.com/product/merrick/Purrfect Bistro Grain Free Cowboy Cookout
     
  18. Jill & Alex (GA)

    Jill & Alex (GA) Senior Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2009
    @Periwinkle
    I've sent a PM to @Marje and Gracie asking her to take a look at this because it doesn't look quite right to me. Marje is a whiz at stuff like this and I'd trust her calculations in a heartbeat! I'm sure she'll check in as soon as she gets a chance.
     
  19. Periwinkle

    Periwinkle Member

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2018

    Thank you. I really appreciate it. I've been meaning to ask what is the purpose of displaying the cats glucose level spreadsheets on this forum?
     
  20. Marje and Gracie

    Marje and Gracie Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 30, 2010
    Let me explain the process commercial food companies go through and some definitions.

    First, you will see on many websites and the cat food can (or bag) the term “guaranteed analysis” (GA) with maximums and minimums. While a calculator was developed by a non FDMB layperson to try and turn that into values you would get if you had the as-fed or dry matter basis (DMB) values, I’ve found it to be inaccurate and I would never use it. Why?

    Pet food regulations, such as they are, require pet foods list a guaranteed maximum or minimum for crude protein, crude fat, crude fiber, and moisture. For example, the GA for protein for Cowboy Cookout is minimum 9%. That is all it is required to have but it could actually have much higher. Not all pet foods equate the GA to as-feds and if you want to see a detailed explanation of this, you can read this detailed but enlightening article.

    The commercial foods are required to have a nutritional analysis of the food based on testing of the food once it is made but you won’t usually see this on the can/bag or website...but some will post it. Usually, for canned foods, it is reported as as-fed or as-served meaning as it is as it comes out of the can. However, due to the lack of moisture in dry foods, the analysis for dry food is done and reported on a DMB.

    Obviously, if you want to compare the amounts of protein in a specific canned food with a specific dry food, you can’t do a direct correlation of as-fed to DMB values without doing some conversions to put them on the same level field (compare apples to apples) by taking out the moisture. This allows you to calculate the nutritional analysis for the canned based on DMB.

    In the example you cited above and asked how could protein be 3.9% on as fed basis 21% on DMB, the asnwer is that Merrick is pulling the wool over your eyes by using the terms GA and as-fed together without telling you there is a way to equate as-feds to DMB. First, we can take the moisture out by subtracting the % moisture from 100:
    100 - 81 = 19

    Then take each as-fed value and divide by 19.
    Protein: 9/19 = 0.47 or 47%
    Fat: 3/19 = 0.16 or 16%
    Carbs: 3.9/19 = 0.21 or 21%

    One more step which is what is really important: calculating the % of calories from each macronutrient both for as-fed and DMB. There are two ways to calculate the % of a macronutrient (fat, protein, carbs) from calories. You can use the as-feds or the DMB.

    But, first, you want to be double check that the macronutrients plus moisture, fiber, and ash = 100. Because most companies won’t list carbs, you can estimate it (as Merrick has done) by subtracting the other ingredients listed above from 100.

    Moisture = 81
    Protein = 9
    Fat = 3
    Ash = 1.9
    Fiber = 1.2
    TOTAL = 96.1

    To estimate %carbs, 100 - 96.1 = 3.9

    Now we are ready to determine the % calories from each macronutrient using the as-feds.
    For pet food, there are 3.5 calories per gram of protein and also 3.5 calories per gram of carbs. There are 8.5 calories per gram of fat. Using this info, we can calculate how many total calories there are from protein, carbs, and fat in Cowboy Cookout.
    Protein: 9 x 3.5 = 31.5 calories
    Fat: 3 x 8.5 = 25.5 calories
    Carbs: 3.9 x 3.5 = 14 calories

    Total the calories from above and you get 71 calories (and you also show this but now you know where it came from).

    To determine the % of each from that 71 calories:
    Protein: 31.5/71 = 44%
    Fat: 25.5/71 = 36%
    Carbs: 14/71 = 20%

    You can do the same thing using the DMB and come up with the same %calories from each of those. This is almost identical to Dr.Lisa’s food chart (pg 34) for Cowboy Cookout. The differences are likely because the food companies periodically retest the food and update the nutritional info based on the most recent testing.

    So Cowboy Cookout is a HC food. Many of us fed it to our FD kitties when it was LC but had to stop when they changed the formula that made it HC.

    Does that all make sense? Please let me know your questions.
     
  21. Jill & Alex (GA)

    Jill & Alex (GA) Senior Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2009
    Thank you for the detailed explanation, @Marje and Gracie !
    Those posting in this forum are usually looking for help with dosing for one reason or another. Those offering advice take that responsibility seriously. Advice, suggestions, and recommendations are not pulled out of thin air. They're based on hard data, information the caregiver supplies about the cat, the abilities/availability/commitment of the caregiver, and years of experience.

    I don't know of any experienced members who feel comfortable offering advice without having the opportunity to analyze the data collected by the caregiver. Most simply won't do it without being able to view a spreadsheet... not because they don't want to help, but more importantly because they don't want to do any harm.

    Bottom line, it comes down to offering advice and suggestions which are not only best, but safest for the individual cat. That's why we urge members to use and make a spreadsheet available/viewable to others. It's also why our most experienced caregivers leave links to their own cat's spreadsheets in their signature even if their cat has crossed the Rainbow Bridge. Take a look at their spreadsheets. They've "been there, done that" and know what they're talking about. See for yourself. :)
     
  22. Periwinkle

    Periwinkle Member

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2018
    To figure out the carbs, you have to be Stephen Hawking. The math is way too over my head. I could never do this to determine what I should or shouldn't feed my cat. I just got him to start to eat this stuff by mixing it with FF grilled liver and chicken and now I have to start over with more cans to test. I have been through about 50 different varieties and had to throw them all away. I have no idea what I am going to do, if he doesn't eat. He will NOT eat pate or shreds or chunks no matter how much I mix with the FF grilled liver and chicken with gravy. The same is true of all low carb chicken, turkey, seafood, rabbit, duck flavors. He will not eat raw food, unless it is shrimp or crab. Do you have any suggestions???
     
  23. Marje and Gracie

    Marje and Gracie Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 30, 2010
    You’re welcome. It can be complicated so I’m always happy to help.

    If you look at the link I left to Dr. Lisa’s food charts, she’s done all the work for you so you don’t have to be Stephen Hawking or even be good at math although it’s actually pretty basic stuff if you look closely at it....just addition, subtraction, multiplication and division. Where it seems complicated is knowing which numbers to add, subtract, multiply, or divide.

    Bottom line (I’m a bottom line person like Jill) is you can feed it to him but you’ll have to adjust his insulin dose if it causes his BG to be higher. We can help you with that but, as Jill said, most of us really experienced members (including me) will not giving dosing advice without a spreadsheet to look at. The FF Grilled Liver and chicken is 13% calories from carbs so if you mixed them together equally, you’d be feeding about 15% calories from carbs.

    I don’t know your kitty but I have had 13 cats over my lifetime and I have found that, barring illness, if they refused to eat a food, it was because I didn’t introduce it properly.

    An example is when new members come on here and tell me their dry food addict will never eat canned but they will if they are transitioned correctly. Same thing with raw. If you just put it down for them, they aren’t going to eat it. It smells odd to them.

    I had this issue when I wanted to transition my kitty, Tobey, who was eating Primal raw, to homemade raw. I thought, “Raw is raw so no problem”. But he wouldn’t touch the new stuff so I had to do it the same way I transitioned him from canned to raw which is putting a very small bit of the new food on his plate next to but not touching the old food. You do it every single meal. Of course, if you are trying raw, you have to pick it up after 15 mins or so. It took two weeks but he finally decided to try the new raw and he’s never looked back. I’m not saying you should switch to raw but you could find a LC canned food that has similar ingredients to Cowboy Cookout or the FF and just put a small amount of it on his plate and keep doing it each time you feed. You can also try mixing the new food in with the old food in tiny, tiny portions. For example, replace 1/8 tsp of the old food with the new food and then after a few days or a week, replace 1/4 tsp, etc. This method didn’t work with Tobey but it did work when I transitioned my kitten from the canned food the breeder was feeding her to raw food.
     
  24. Periwinkle

    Periwinkle Member

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2018
    I have looked at the food chart every day for a week and have tried a litany of the low carb foods on the chart, mixing and putting the food next to the FF. Each time I introduce a new food I mix a tsp or put about a tsp next to his food but I end up throwing it away. The vet told me that it imperative that Percy eats, in order to give him the injection. I have never started out with an 1/8 tsp but I will try it. This method is costing me a fortune. I normally do not keep opened canned cat food more 2 days. What is the longevity of opened canned cat food?
     
  25. Marje and Gracie

    Marje and Gracie Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 30, 2010
    I’d say 2-3 days.
     
  26. Jill & Alex (GA)

    Jill & Alex (GA) Senior Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2009
    @lovemycat444
    I changed the subject line of your original post to reflect the turn in conversation. It's good info and others may be interested.
    Please forgive the hi-jack!
    Thank you,
    Jill :)
     
  27. Periwinkle

    Periwinkle Member

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2018
    thanks for the info.
     
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  28. Periwinkle

    Periwinkle Member

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2018
    Good idea. Thanks
     
  29. Periwinkle

    Periwinkle Member

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2018
    Those posting in this forum are usually looking for help with dosing for one reason or another. Those offering advice take that responsibility seriously. Advice, suggestions, and recommendations are not pulled out of thin air. They're based on hard data, information the caregiver supplies about the cat, the abilities/availability/commitment of the caregiver, and years of experience.

    I don't know of any experienced members who feel comfortable offering advice without having the opportunity to analyze the data collected by the caregiver. Most simply won't do it without being able to view a spreadsheet... not because they don't want to help, but more importantly because they don't want to do any harm.

    Bottom line, it comes down to offering advice and suggestions which are not only best, but safest for the individual cat. That's why we urge members to use and make a spreadsheet available/viewable to others. It's also why our most experienced caregivers leave links to their own cat's spreadsheets in their signature even if their cat has crossed the Rainbow Bridge. Take a look at their spreadsheets. They've "been there, done that" and know what they're talking about. See for yourself. :)[/QUOTE]
     
  30. Periwinkle

    Periwinkle Member

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2018
    I don't understand why a curve is done every day. Is ts b/c the cat's glucose levels are erratic and cannot be regulated?
     
  31. Periwinkle

    Periwinkle Member

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2018
     
  32. Periwinkle

    Periwinkle Member

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2018
    I found a cat food called Solid Gold chicken and liver that has 6.43% carbs per can, using your calculation. Is this too many carbs? I started with an 1/8 tsp mixed to the FF and Percy has eaten it twice

    Moisture 82%
    Protein 10.0 %
    Fat 3.5%
    Fiber 2.0 %
    NO ASH


    Protein 10x 3.5 =35 calories
    Fat 3.5 x 8.5 = 29.75 calories
    Carbs 2.5 X 3.5 = 8.75 calories

    total 73.50 calories

    Protein 35/73.50 = 25.72%
    Fat 29.75/73.50 = 21.86%
    Carbs 8.75/73.50 = 6.43%
     
  33. Marje and Gracie

    Marje and Gracie Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 30, 2010
    Curves are not done every day.

    For those following the SLGS method of regulation, curves are done once a week.

    For those following the Tight Regulation Protocol, random spot checks are the most helpful.
     
  34. Marje and Gracie

    Marje and Gracie Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 30, 2010
    Great job! That is the correct calculation if the GA is the same as the as-fed values. Quite often, it is not. I called Solid Gold for you and am waiting to hear back to get the as-fed or DMB values so we can double check.

    But, if the GA values are the same as their as-fed values, then that is an excellent selection for him as far as %calories from carbs.
     
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  35. Periwinkle

    Periwinkle Member

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2018
    Wow! Thanks so very much.
     
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  36. Periwinkle

    Periwinkle Member

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2018
    I did a glucose curve every 2 hours for the first time and Percy's numbers are excellent. I talked to the vet and he was very optimistic. He wants me to do another curve next week and, if the numbers are like yesterday's, he is reducing Percy's insulin to 1/2 unit. He said that Percy's diabetes may be controlled on diet alone. What is remarkable is that just cutting out the dry cat food has brought his numbers down. I just started introducing 1/8 tsp of the new Solid Gold cat food yesterday mixed with his FF, so that has not affected the numbers.
    148
    124
    122
    115
    114
     
    JeanW likes this.
  37. JeanW

    JeanW Member

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2017
    That is really great news!
     
    Krystina & Nelli likes this.
  38. Marje and Gracie

    Marje and Gracie Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 30, 2010
    They didn’t call me back....I called again. Still no response.

    Great numbers but they need to be in a spreadsheet so we can provide the best assistance to you. Let me know if you need help with it.

    Improvements can be seen with tossing the dry but, too many times, we’ve seen vets decrease the dose by too much at one time or stop it all together long before it should be stopped. If Percy’s current dose is 1u, decreasing him to 1/2u could be way too much at one time. We normally do decreases in 0.25u increments unless it is a high dose cat or there are really extenuating circumstances.

    I would encourage you to hometest him this week with at least 2-3 tests per cycle, which would include the preshot each cycle, and that will provide you and us a much better idea of the dose he really needs. As an example, if he continues to have the numbers he’s had today, we would recommend against decreasing the dose.

    I also strongly encourage you to start a thread for Periwinkle as this thread was started by another member on another topic.

    Thank you.
     
  39. Periwinkle

    Periwinkle Member

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2018
    Thank you for all of your trouble. I went to Petco last night to purchase Solid Gold chicken and liver and they said that they were no longer carrying it!! I don't know what this means but it sounds like a bad omen. I went to Petsmart and they had plenty and it still can be purchased on line at this time. Don't worry about calling Solid Gold- I will call them and send them an email.

    When I talked to my vet, he said that it was not necessary to test my cat more than once a week. He said, by doing it more often, risks the cats' stress level to rise, which would raise the glucose levels and therefore make them inaccurate. After I tested Percy, he would run and hide under the bed. He was not at all happy. We had to close all the upstairs doors, in order to keep him in an area that we were able to find him and pick him up. I would bet that the levels I took on Monday were higher than they actually were because of the cats' stress. Percy is easily stressed and not adaptable to new situations. After 10 years of being imprisoned in my house, he still is cautious when coming inside from the screened in porch. It is like he doesn't trust his environment. If anything is moved in my house or if something is set on the floor, he walks around it like it is dangerous. He still is leery of my husband, who rarely gets the joy of petting him. I am lucky to pet Percy twice a day and only on his terms.

    I think that Percy's water intake and amount of pee is also an indicator of whether Percy's diabetes is improving. Last week he was peeing outside his litter box and there was copious amounts of pee in his litter box. Now, his peeing has subsided. That has to be taken into account, if the insulin is decreased. This will all be discussed next week with the vet. Furthermore, If the vet decreases the insulin to 1/2 units and Percys' levels increase, then I will contact him and he will up the dose back to 1 unit. I am not concerned that his levels will rise to a fatal level, while on the 1 unit of insulin and on the food I am feeding him. If he starts to get lethargic or is not himself in any way, I will test his glucose.

    Don't you think a spreadsheet is a little premature. If his levels remain even and within range next week, Percy's diabetes may be controlled by diet alone.

    I just read that PZI is by far the most effective insulin for diabetic cats. Is this true, why aren't all cats on PZI?

    https://diabeticcatcare.com/DCCCOK/Protocol.htm
     
  40. Periwinkle

    Periwinkle Member

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2018

    I found another wet cat food called Crave that Percy will eat and it appears to have a smudge less amount of carbs than solid gold. However, the carb total is based on 1.3 oz, which only comes out to be 2.53 carbs. I am not sure if my calculations are correct because the 69 calories do not match the 31 calories on the Chewy.com site. This is very confusing because the calorie values do not match.


    Guaranteed Analysis:
    Crude Protein 9.5% min
    Crude Fat 4.0% min
    Crude Fiber 1.0% max
    Moisture 82.0% max
    Ash 3.0% max
    Taurine 0.06% min

    Caloric Content
    826 kcal/kg, 31 kcal/serving
    https://www.chewy.com/crave-chicken-beef-recipe-cuts-in/dp/174666


    Percent of carbs 100- 99.5 = .5

    Protein 9.5 x3.5= 33.25 calories
    Fat 8.5 x 3 = 34 calories
    Carbs 3.5 x .5 1.75 calories
    Total calories 69

    Protein 33.25/69 = 48.19
    Fat 34/69 = 49.28
    Carbs 1.75/69 = 2.53 (doubled based on 2 trays = 2.6 oz = 5% carbs)

    Do you think this food is okay?
     
  41. Jill & Alex (GA)

    Jill & Alex (GA) Senior Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2009
    @Periwinkle
    I agree with Marje on all points. I'm closing this thread. Please start your own thread. I'll try to sort your posts from @lovemycat444 's posts tomorrow. Until then, please link this thread in your new thread.
    Thank you!
     
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