Bonnie and Oreo Joe from Sweden

Discussion in 'Feline Health - (The Main Forum)' started by Bonnie & Oreo Joe, Oct 9, 2017.

  1. Bonnie & Oreo Joe

    Bonnie & Oreo Joe Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2017
    I belonged to this group years ago and you gave advise and Cessan went off insulin instantly and never went back on it. She lived years with just a good diet and then 2 years with kidney failure. I was a good nurse and loved her so much and without you I would have lost her. She died at 19½ years in the early spring of 2013. We went the week after and picked up a cat who was about 3 years old. We were told he was a foster home cat but we found a cat in a cage the size of a single bed but 8 feet tall and he lived with another cat and he had to jump up 6 feet to the top bunk bed. He was fed dry food had a short scratching post litter and food bowls under the bottom bunk. A woman came once a week for 45 minutes to keep the 2 socialized. He was in the loft of a horse barn and once the horses were in the man opened the cage and said they got to exercise all night in a dark barn.
    He was 15 pounds and lifting him was like having a basket ball of jello. He dove under my bed and lived there 6 weeks. I started him on the diabetic diet of high protein under 10% carb and no dry. I added water to his food so it was soupy plus hoped it would fill him up more. He gets small pieces of raw chicken when we eat and a few sugar free teeny crunchy treats during the day Got him a water fountain and he lost 3 pounds in 3 months, He then could jump and fit on the window sills, climb high on his cat gym and started his very slow process of getting friendly. His diet has stayed exactly the same chicken or turkey pate for wet food. The vet agreed that a 1 pound can lasting him 2 to 2½ days was a good amount for him to eat. About 3 months ago he started to gain weight and he wasn't getting anything more to eat. He has gained up to 16 pounds. I tried less food but all he did was stare at me for hours between putting food in his bowl and never lost. I never thought of diabetes as Cessan lost weight. I don't see him drinking more but he has always drank alot. Back from 2013 1 clump of litter will be at least the size of my fist. If 2 get together they break the plastic scoopers we can get. The vet saw him today and checked his wheezing and watery eyes and we agreed it was just in his nose nothing in his lungs and with his weight she didn't want to inhalers or pills as they contained cortisone and would up his weight. She said to save money and she knew I could check his blood sugar at home. 4 hours later I did that and was shocked to find it was 12.5 European and 225 American. He has never really played with toys as he didn't have any for 3 years. But now and then he would chase little mice or balls around. Now he lays and pats with his paw. He will need insulin and Dr. Pernilla said if it turned out he had diabetes I should find out the best insulin etc from here. Most vets know very little about diabetic cats. IF the person brings them in they put them on those pills and the cat dies. Or the family says to put them to sleep it would be to hard to have a diabetic cat. So here I am hat in hand asking for advice. Our vet is super said she knew I was a mom not a pet owner and that she trusted me with my other cats kidney care and wanted what was best for Oreo Joe.
    He has extremely thick hair for a short hair I get handfuls of hair any time I pet him. I comb him 4 or 5 times a day and the waste basket gets filled with hair not waste. His coat is glossy and covered in dandruff oils rubbed directly on his skin for months did nothing. He has always lost tons of hair when combed. It is so thick a brush just glides over the top.
    Ok I probably told more than needed but help me please. Thank you so much!!!
     
  2. Red & Rover (GA)

    Red & Rover (GA) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2016
    Bumping your post up the list.
     
  3. Tracey&Jones

    Tracey&Jones Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2016
  4. W.K.

    W.K. Member

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2017
    ECID - every cat is different. What might work for one might not be the best choice for another. I think the most common insulin(s) used around here are Lantus or Levemir. Vetsulin and ProZinc are also some good options.

    gonna tag some people @Yong @Rachel @Djamila @Kris & Teasel and the oh so helpful @Chris & China
     
  5. Chris & China

    Chris & China Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 10, 2013
    Probably the easiest to get in Sweden is going to be Lantus....it's an excellent insulin for cats though!!

    He's really not that high, so that's good news! 225 isn't really too bad

    If his ideal weight is about 12lbs, his starting dose would be 1.3U (which you can't really do), so I'd start him on 1U.

    Test before every shot and get at least 1 test somewhere mid-cycle (5 to 7 hours after the shot) on the AM cycle, and get at least a "before bed" test on the PM cycle. (if you can test a little more than that, that's even better)

    Lantus dosing is based on how LOW it takes them, so getting tests in between the shots is very important
     
  6. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2015
    Hi there, and welcome back! As W.K said, finding the insulin that works best for your cat is the thing - there isn't just one best insulin.

    That being said, Lantus is probably the one that is used the most, and there is good success with it. You need to hold a fairly strict shooting schedule with a blood glucose (BG) test and a shot every 12 hours, and you keep the dose consistent. There is a protocol that can be used to guide your dosing decisions as you get to know your cats patterns.

    Levemir is gaining in popularity as an alternative to Lantus. It works a little differently, and often has a later nadir. It is also a depot insulin like Lantus, so you need a fairly strict 12 hour test/shoot schedule, and consistent dosing. You use the same protocol as Lantus as a guide for dosing.

    Prozinc is a bit more flexible. It still works best on a strict 12 hour schedule, but if you need to occasionally shoot a bit early or late, it's not too big of a deal. It has a slightly curvier cycle, with higher numbers at AM and PM pre-shot times, and lower nadirs, so especially at first, may require a bit more monitoring. As the cat is regulated, the curve flattens out a bit. There is a protocol, but it has a bit more flexibility than the L insulins - there is a bit more of an art mixed in with the science - it depends on getting to know your cat very well

    For all three of those insulin types, the dose is determined by looking at both the pre-shot and the nadir, but the nadir is the most important since that tells you if the kitty is getting too little or too much insulin.

    Vetsulin/Caninsulin is probably the most flexible. It's still shot on a 12 hour schedule, but the impact of the insulin doesn't last the full 12 hours, so you do have a bit more flexibility. It's dosed on a sliding scale, and the pre-shot number is more important since you use it to determine how much insulin to give. This is usually considered to be a harsher insulin as it causes much steeper curves, drops, and rises. It is often chosen for cost (it's the least expensive), but has not had quite the success that the other insulins have had. That being said, it has worked for many cats.

    I've used both Prozinc and Lantus, and I'm about to begin Levemir. My cat has done pretty well on both Prozinc and Lantus as far as his BG, but there are differences in how he has felt on both of them.

    If you can choose any insulin, I would probably suggest Lantus to begin with. There are a lot of people around here who can help you, and there is a clear protocol you can follow when there isn't anyone around, so it's probably the easiest to manage if you won't have much vet support as there is a ton of information about it.

    Also, the dandruff and shedding are often symptoms of diabetes, so hopefully that will clear up in time.

    I am curious about the weight gain though - usually cats on low carb diets don't gain much weight. And weight loss is commonly a symptom of diabetes. Has your vet run a full blood panel to make sure there aren't other health issues going on at the same time? Hopefully there's nothing else, but it might be a good idea to check if you haven't already.
     
  7. Bonnie & Oreo Joe

    Bonnie & Oreo Joe Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2017
    Since as a nurse I only had 1 diabetic patient in my entire career! Hard to believe. With Cessan the vet ordered 6 U canininsulin saying it was a very weak insulin and not to question him. Of course it almost killed her. We rubbed enough honey on her gums to feed a bear cub! I thought I remembered Lantus - I stayed on this board about 3 years maybe longer and woke up about 6 AM which was 6 to 9 hours ahead of the USA and I calmed new parents down, stopped them from giving high doses of insulin and talked to them until the ones with the insulin knowledge came on. Then I became really ill and when I came back I never recovered really and finally left the group and pretty much everything I did on the pc for a long time. So I don't have a clue of what to do with any insulin. I know Lantus is more expensive but since I am home bound I only use my travel money to visit family in the USA is used for things I need or want. Like a new pc screen. That money can go toward Oreo Joe's care. There isn't a sliding scale with Lantus? So if I test Oreo and he is 120 I wouldn't give it or do I still give it?
    I do have a doctors appt today so will be gone a few hours nothing is close. Oreo is a grazer. He eats a few mouthfuls and then wanders off for a nap somewhere or bird watching and then returns for more bites. So he is going to always have some food working in him. How do I work around that? I can burrito wrap him if necessary and have no problem doing blood sugars. Our vet is very conscious about bills for things not needed and she wanted to wait until I tested his blood rather than a bill there. I can ask for a full blood panel. He has been shedding and had dandruff since we got him. but he did lose weight after I fed him correctly and just in the last 3 to 4 months began to slowly gain. Doctor said she has read that some cats gain weight but most lose with diabetes. I had never read that. I will return later with a screen that doesn't take 2 hours to come on and look for the Lantus protocol here. Thank you to all of you who bumped me up and for the great start in getting me settled on insulin and what to start to study and to ask to be done.
     
  8. Rachel

    Rachel Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2013
    Hey there! You've already gotten great advice about insulins and it sounds like you're going with Lantus. That is an excellent insulin and there are a lot of folks with great knowledge of it on here! I'm not one of them :p. I only used Prozinc. BUT I can give you the link to the Lantus forum! http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/forums/lantus-glargine-levemir-detemir.9/ The protocols are listed there at the top along with other information. I know that you'll have to decide between Start Low, Go Slow and Tight Regulation...so I'd read up on both of those and see which one is best for you and your schedule. Maybe also post an intro thread over there and get some input and advice? You're going to do great with this second journey and Oreo Joe is a lucky guy to have you!
     
    Squalliesmom and Yong like this.
  9. Bonnie & Oreo Joe

    Bonnie & Oreo Joe Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2017
    Thank you for the link! I remember hearing about the tight regulating and they said that cats could get rid of their insulin. Since Cessan had the disaster with the first vet and never needed insulin I never had the chance to really learn about it, that was done on a different forum so I never heard about it. I was worried and couldn't turn my mind off but finally said to my husband that God knew I had taken good care of Cessan and He knew that, like so many Swedes do, I wouldn't put him to sleep. I am rarely gone and then a doctor's appointment and we are gone 3 or 4 hours but those I think are pretty much over. So I can fit in how to handle any schedule he will need. I can set the alarm so I am up at the same time etc. Thank you so much. Hugs
     
  10. Bonnie & Oreo Joe

    Bonnie & Oreo Joe Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2017
    I have been wading through information but I will need another go it again. I have chronic fatigue and it is causing me to keep drifting off to sleep. If I am giving 1 unit of Lantus twice a day how many units are in a vial? I am astounded by the cost that I saw on a couple Lantus sites I hate having to choose an insulin for cost but I don't know if I can afford it. It depends on how long 1 vial will last for me. Thank you for any help you can give me.
     
  11. Bonnie & Oreo Joe

    Bonnie & Oreo Joe Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2017
    I need someone to figure this out for me. My brain has totally scrambled and nothing is making sense. Lantus is sadly out It comes in cartridges only and the support person at the animal pharmacy said after shooting out 2 U each time before drawing up 1 U 2 times a day it would be one cartridge a day. She was as confused as me as she said $64 but didn't say how many pens but the pens we get are 3 in a box. Now I don't know the dosage changes or if Prozinc is still 1 U but a 10 ml vial = 40 units and costs $54 a vial. That would be for 10 days. Caninsuline in 10 ml vial is $50. We scrape out 100 dollars a month for things we need, like the 1st winter jacket in 10 years and 1 pair of jeans took out the 100 for this month. Xmas etc all come from that. Can someone check these and help me see if Prozinc would be less of a dose? The pharmacy couldn't find levemire. I see Levemire listed in a swedish site but so far can't get info on it, Google keeps sending me to sites that sell male products today. :(
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2017
  12. W.K.

    W.K. Member

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2017
    1u doesn't equal 1mL. If there are 10mL then that's 400 units with a u40 insulin.
     
  13. Bonnie & Oreo Joe

    Bonnie & Oreo Joe Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2017
    Thank you! I just knew it sounded wrong and one drug company had that showing the amount in a vial and I thought if it were right we'd go broke. Being sick my memory is bad and it shows up when I try to do anything with math and I can't remember a number or spelling of a word to look it up and type it in. I lose verbs if I am not totally just talking. It has been more than 40 years since I drew up medication in a syringe and way longer than that for insulin. Oreo's BG was 12.5 (230) on Monday, Tuesday at the same time 6:30 pm it was 7.5 (135) and today at 6:30 pm it was 6.9 (125) He hadn't eaten for at least 3 or 4 hours today. Monday it was 3½ hours after we got home from the vet but he was almost lethargic.
     
  14. Tracey&Jones

    Tracey&Jones Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2016
    The Lantus pen has 300 units per cartridge for use with the U100 syringes. Each cartridge holds 3ml. And you don't need the pen, you can just purchase the cartridges. The cartridges will last up to 3 months in the fridge. So $64 (I am assuming per pen)/300 x 2 units per day is $0.42 per day.

    For Canusulin - $54/400 x 2units per day -0.27 per day.


    ETA: Those are not bad numbers in the last couple of days...is that without insulin?
     
  15. Larry and Kitties

    Larry and Kitties Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2009
    It depends on where you live. In the USA, cartridges were discontinued many years ago. Now only vials and disposable pens are available.
     
  16. Tracey&Jones

    Tracey&Jones Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2016
    I am so baffled sometimes how the two countries can be so different on the same stuff...considering we are right next door to each other.
     
  17. Bonnie & Oreo Joe

    Bonnie & Oreo Joe Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2017
    Yes he isn't on insulin yet and won't be until a full blood panel is done. I am thinking he has had diabetes since we got him in 2013. He was supposedly checked by a vet just before we got him. But it wasn't a good job. But his being so fat just didn't fit with the diabetic cats I have known so I never thought to check him. So if we get just the cartridge I don't have to toss out 2 U each time! I am sorry I am so dense sounding. I don't want to use Caninsulin so finding out I have been all wrong has made me feel much better. So The lantus would last a bit over 2 months is that correct. The pain and fatigue are getting to me. Tomorrow I want to do several tests on him and see what he is all day. Then I talk to the Vet on Friday so
     
  18. Bonnie & Oreo Joe

    Bonnie & Oreo Joe Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2017
    Looking up Lantus in Sweden I knew it didn't come in vials but it doesn't come in cartridges. I will have to go to Prozinc as far as I can see. I will have the Vet check out things. She must have a book that I don't. Maybe the blood panel will show something totally different.
     
  19. Chris & China

    Chris & China Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 10, 2013
    If they don't have vials (or cartridges) they should still have pens....it's called Lantus SoloStar

    Each pen holds 300 units, so at 1U twice a day, one pen would last you about 5 months, if you went up to 2U twice a day, one pen would last you about 2 1/2 months

    Another option for insulin glargine (the chemical name for Lantus) is called Basaglar

    I have a friend who lives in Sweden and they DO have Lantus there. It may just be in the pen form instead of the vial or cartridge
     
  20. Bonnie & Oreo Joe

    Bonnie & Oreo Joe Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2017
    Yes we have 2 sizes of pens but I thought it said on the lantus protocol that you had to shoot out 2 U of the insulin before you could draw up a dose. That would be 4 U that we throw away each day! I have a friend that wrote and told me that her cat had the same symptoms as Oreo and it was hypothyroid. I looked it up and he had all but one symptom listed. Will get in the first part of next week for a full blood screen. He isn't acting like himself somehow riding in the carrier he let the vet do anything she wanted to, that never happens. He always howls the entire 45 minute car ride this time he was quiet. I have gotten blood tests 3 times while he laid there purring. I think he has been replaced by aliens. He is eating less too! Will let the board know if something happens.
     
  21. Chris & China

    Chris & China Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 10, 2013
    That's when you use the special pen needles "designed" for the pens.....Here, we buy regular insulin syringes and pull the insulin out of the pen instead of using the "dial-a-dose" mechanism so there's no need to "prime" it
     
  22. Bonnie & Oreo Joe

    Bonnie & Oreo Joe Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2017
    Hello I am so sorry I didn't get back to you sooner. I have been sick and haven't done much of anything other than be in pain or sleeping. We returned to the Vet and I suggested hypothyroidism as all but one symptom Oreo Joe had. She did a blood scan and the T3 and T4 showed hypothyroidism. I have seen him get a little playful which hasn't happened. He does eat less and very often doesn't show up in the kitchen for a treat. He has to be fasting 4 hours before his pill and 1 hour after. Well he acts like he will fall on the floor and die. I offer him a bit of food and raw chicken an hour before I go to bed. He looks at me like he has no idea what that dish is for. I put it away and he is hungry when I get in bed. Of course he is fasting (does have water) for way more hours than 4.
    I weighed him the first week and he had gone from 7 kg (15 pounds) to 6.8 kg and this morning he was 7.2 kg. The vet will see him the end of November. That will be blood work. I do hope it isn't every few weeks but he is my baby. Thank you so much for the help you gave me. Because the vet thought it was diabetes I jumped on it. I should have waited.
    God Bless!
     

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