Diet advice

Hi everyone!

My cat has been diabetic for 6 years now.
He has been on Royal Canin Satiety dry food for a number of years, as he was overweight.

Now he is at a healthy weight, do you suggest moving him onto wet food? I'm not sure what the carb content is for his current food, in order to compare.
He's been pretty stable on his current dose of insulin, so I don't want to rock the boat if I don't have to, but only want what's best for him.

Surprisingly, this is the first time i've come across reading that normal wet food, with a low carb content is ok.
I've had vets tell me to keep him on satiety or a diabetic cat food.
So now I'm confused! I want what's best for my cat.

My other cats are fed friskies pate.

If i decide to change his food, how do i know how much to feed him, as I don't want his weight to creep up again. When he was overweight, we was more resistant to Caninsulin (vetsulin), and only started to make any progress once he lost some weight, so I'm just concerned that switching to wet food will gain weight on him again.

So do i keep him as he is, or change his food? As they say, if it's not broken, don't try and fix it!

Sorry for the essay.
Thanks in advance for any advice x

 

The food you were feeding is 28% carb and totally inappropriate for a diabetic cat. Diabetic cats need food under 10 percent carb (under 6 is better). There are very few dry foods that are in that range. Even the perscription diabetic dry is too many carbs at about 14-15%.

Before you switch to the wet food, are you home testing? Because dropping the high carb food could have a significant impact of your cats blood glucose numbers and will likely require an insulin reduction. BTW most find their overweight cats go to a healthy weight when switched to a low carb wet food (just like when people cut carbs).

What dose are you giving?

Are you home testing? Can you share a log of his numbers from the past month?

If you are not testing, ate you willing to learn how?

Most of us feed fancy feast classic or Friskies pate foods, so give him what the others are getting.... But again, reduce the insulin dose and do some home testing first. The general rule of thumb is about 20 calories per pound.

Here's a wet food list. https://catinfo.org/docs/CatFoodProteinFatCarbPhosphorusChart.pdf

 

Wow, that's high.
Yes, i do home test, however, i do not do this when he is stable. It's only when i think he needs an adjustment in dose, do i test to see if this is correct.
He is currently on 3 units.
I was always led to believe that the wet food would spike his glucose!

Anyhow, thank you so much for the advice Janet, it's been very informative.

 

Quite the opposite. Gravy wet food is no good, but pate food is 0-5 carbs usually.

 

So, when I calculate 20 cals per lb, he should get 200 cals per day, which is a little over half a large tin a day.
Do you think he will stay full on this?
He currently gets a meal every 4 hours.
If i divide half a large tin by 6, it's a mouthful!

 

Wow you feed 6 times a day? When do you sleep? Lol how much do you feed your other cats? Your cat is 10 lbs, correct? A 5.5 ounce can of Friskies pate is 165-189 calories depending on the flavor. Sometimes unregulated diabetics need more food than non diabetics, so I would probability offer about 1 1/2 cans a day . (1/4 can each time since you feed often. Or you could do a half can morning and evening, and a quarter can mid day and night if you feed 4x a day). If he doesn't eat that much maybe 1.25 cans. Some of it is dependent on how energetic they are too. Remember no food at least 2 hours prior to the preshot test. The best way to get your cat in the correct dose is too test daily. At minimum test the preshot to make sure it's safe to shoot, then ideally you get at least 1 mid cycle number.

 

Thankfully, i have a food timer that feeds the other 4 meals! But may have to rethink it if I'm changing to wet food.

I have 4 other non diabetic cats.
They get fed twice a day.
They share one large tin of friskies pate per day, with a small sprinkling of dry food on top.
So they only get, let's say, half of a 5.5oz tin of food per day, which looks like nothing in their bowls, however, none of them are underweight.

May i ask, what is an ideal BG, preshot? Around the 360 mark???
I usually start testing 4 hours after the shot, then every hour until his BG starts to rise again.
I've only tested preshot when his BG has been frighteningly low during the day, then i would not give him a shot in the evening, if this was the case, then i would know his BG would be ok again, preshot, in the morning. (Hope that makes sense!)

Janet, I really appreciate your help, thank you.

 

Oh! So you're a crazy cat person like me! Lol. I have 6 all together. I feed them all ff twice a day. I leave my non diabetics a dry food called epigen 90 (about 5% carb so it's not awful if my diabetic gets into it), and I leave a little dry food called Young Again Mature Zero carb (under 1%carb) for my diabetic to munch on if she wants. (If you are interested in trying the young again food they will send you a free sample if you ask www.youngagainpetfood.com). I keep the epigen 90 in a timed feeder so I am sure she doesn't get any about 3 hours before I am going to test her. I would leave the young again out for all of them but it gives my one cat Julie terrible diarrhea if she even eats a few pieces. I think she has a pork sensitivity.

A cat is considered to be regulated with a preshots at 300 and under and a nadir around 100. If course ideally the preshot is lower then that, but that's not always possible. I'm sure you will see better numbers once you are on mostly wet. Are you using a human meter or pet meter?

It would be helpful if you could set up a signature like the ones you see below our posts. This way we aren't asking you the same questions repeatedly.

To do that click on your name at the top right corner and choose signature. Add info such as your pets name, date diagnosed, age, insulin type, food you're feeding, meter you use, and any other health concerns and medications.

 

I sure am! Haha!

The other day, i decided to do a curve, as we have recently moved and i wanted to make sure the stress hadn't affected his BG too much.
The nadir was 9.5 hours after the shot!
When it was time for his second shot, his BG was only 180, so I didn't give him his second shot because i thought he would have hypo'd and died overnight.
Did i over react, or would you have done the same???

I am using the alphatrak 2.
Once he's near the end of his bag of food, i will start transitioning.

Just when I thought my knowledge was good, i learn it wasn't as good as i thought! Learning a lot from you already.

 

What was it at 9,5?

 

BTW, this is a link to the template for spreadsheet most of us use that you see in our signatures. Up to you if course, but it does make it easy to help each other when we can see the readings.

http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/fdmb-spreadsheet-instructions.130337/

If you have such a late nadir with vetsulin your dose might be a little on the high side. Reducing would give two shootable numbers.

 

It was at 86.

Thank you

 

Maybe try 2.5-2.75 a few days and see how he does.

@Kris & Teasel what do you think?

 

I see above he's been on 3 u. That 86 at +9.5 is fairly low for that time in the cycle so a reduction would be safest. I'd try 2.5 u because you don't yet have a spreadsheet with a lot of data to look at.

 

I agree, esp if you are going to be reducing that high carb food.

 

I'm going to ask some silly questions now.
Please excuse this. I just like to research and have answers before i go changing anything.
My biggest worry at the moment is my cat hypo'ing and passing away if i mess this up!

So I'm happy with the food side of things.
It's the insulin side of things.

Obviously i can monitor his BG closely during the day, but what about the night? What if i mess up his dose and he hypo's?

I read that the dosing is like a sliding scale- this scares me slightly, as I've been used to having a fixed amount.
Will it eventually settle and i go back to fixed doses? Or will i forever be adjusting his dose?

My anxiety about all this, is through the roof.
I know it's what's best for my cat, but I'm scared i will mess it up, especially if something goes south when i'm asleep.

Any advice appreciated!!!

 

Here's our info on preventing and treating hypos.

There are things you can do to make it safer.

The number one thing is testing daily.


The other thing is having supplies on hand in case of emergency. Honey, Karo, ect, extra test strips, high carb gravy food. Read this link....
Maybe print it out.

http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/how-to-treat-hypos-they-can-kill-print-this-out.15887/

 

Thank you

 

Janet,
I'm having a moment right now!

I'm studying a couple of people's spreadsheets, yours included, to get a rough idea of things.

May i ask, preshot reading- when is too low, that a shot should be missed?

And how do you gage how much insulin to give? As i see your chart varies on the dose, on a daily basis.


So, on someone elses chart, the preshot reading in the morning is at 370.
The preshot reading in the evening is at 180, however, they administered the same dose.
They appear to be using Caninsulin also.

So in my head, i would have thought the 180 was too low, and would not have given the same dose as the morning.
Am i just not understanding how insulin works???
I feel like I'm missing a big piece of the puzzle here!
Please help!

 

For new people we generally say don't shoot under 200 until you have more data to be able to judge how your cat will react. The perdon you saw who shot the 180 probably knew the number was heading up at that point.


I've been at this two years and have a pretty good idea how my cat will react to each dose... So I choose to use a sliding scale for dosing. In the beginning I did not dose this way (until she got her numbers way down). You can look at her first ss and see that. It's a very individual thing.

 

Can you please set up a signature? It would help us to see info without asking the same questions repeatedly.

Click on your name at the top right corner and choose signature. Add info such as your pets name, date diagnosed, insulin type, food you're feeding, and any other health concerns and medications.

 

I'm only new to the TR part.
I have an idea how my cat's BG reacts when he is stable, but am unsure how much the no carbs will affect this...
He's always been a high preshot cat, as his figures do drop dramatically, so i wonder if this will still be the case once i change his diet.
The person whose spreadsheet i saw, is new to this. She was actually asking if she should reduce the dose slightly, and got told no, by one of the admin.

 

Keep in mind that the tight regulation protocol is written for lantus... Vetsulin can't be dosed the same way at low numbers.

 

Good job getting the spreadsheet set up. That's very helpful.

 

Ok, i did not know it was written for lantus.
So i am correct in having the preshot quite high then?
Have you ever thought about switching? And if so, why haven't you?

I've just moved to the Bahamas from the UK, and stocked up on as much Caninsulin as possible, as they don't have Vetsulin readily available at my new vets here. They would have to have it delivered from Florida.

So I will see how we get on with the change of food, and when I'm a few months away from running out of Caninsulin, i will see what is readily available at the vets.
Or can i get lantus in a pharmacy?

 

Lantus is a human insulin so you can get it at a pharmacy. I've considered switching but I'm not good about consistently dosing at the same time day and night. If anything is switch to ProZinc as it has similar flexibility with scheduling.

I had good results with vetsulin the first time around. My cat went into remission after 4 months. She stayed in remission for a year. This time around had proven much more difficult sas we are going on month 10 now.

 

Do you need a prescription for it?

Oh wow.
I thought my cat was going to go into remission at one point, but it never happened.

How flexible is vetsulin with scheduling? I thought it had to be given every 12 hours.

I feel like a newbie, yet I've been doing this for 6 years! I guess i just did what the vet told me, and stuck to it!

 

Yes you need a perscription. Vetsulin is an in and out insulin so we generally have an hour window before and after. I try to stay within a half hour of the last shot though. Doesn't always work out that way.

 

I'm the same, with the half hour timeframe.

Is lantus more regimented, with no room for timing changes?

 

Correct. They have about 15 min of wiggle room I believe.

 

Welcome! Just wanted to pop by and say the people here are very experienced and knowledgeable. You are in good hands.

 

Morning all!
So i have just fed my cat (first meal on TR). I can tell he's still really hungry.
He got fed 6 times a day on the old diet.
If i carry on with 6 meals a day, he literally gets an ounce of food a meal, which doesn't look very much. I've calculated his daily meal allowance on approx 20cals per lb.
I don't feel comfortable free feeding, as he is quite greedy and used to be very overweight.
Any suggestions please?

 

At about a can and a half a day of the 5.5 Oz cans he should be getting 8-9 Oz a day. If he's still unregulated and not currently overweight I would feed him what he wants even up to 2 cans (11 Oz) a day because unregulated cats are not utilizing the nutrients properly so they are literally starving even though they are eating.

 

Hi Janet.
Thanks for the advice.
Now for the next question...
I reduced his insulin intake today and have been testing throughout the day.
BG has been higher than i would have liked.
I will dose him the same dose again tonight, just for peace of mind, but should i increase his dose tomorrow? Or give it a few days to allow his liver to start working again?
Many thanks!

 

Can you set up a spreadsheet with your numbers?
http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/fdmb-spreadsheet-instructions.130337/

 

I think l have finally done it!
I stopped the readings when l saw his BG was creeping back up.
Must have had a dodgy reading on the 15.7?
Will take a PMPS tonight before giving a dose.

 

Great job setting up the spreadsheet. That will be very helpful. Keep at this dose for awhile, esp as you are lowering carbs, and keep up the great work testing.

 

Ok.
If l see no improvement, let's say, after the third day, will it be ok to increase? Or should l wait longer?
Thank you

 

Wemay suggest increasing then. What say you, @Kris & Teasel

 

I agree. The task right now is to get some BG data at the current dose to see what his patterns are.

 

Hello,
Is it common for cats to throw up when they switch to low carb food?
I'm not sure why this has happened?
He started low carb wet food approx 21 hours ago, but now has thrown up what he ate 4 hours ago.
Many thanks.

 

Is not common unless they have a sensitive stomach and a food change is bothering him. Was there a hairball?
Can you do a test and make sure he's not too low?

 

Hi Janet!
Would you mind having a look at Tyler's spreadsheet for me please?
I'm going to administer 5 units this evening, and see how he goes, but i am tempted to give 5.5 units in the morning...
Do you think that would be ok?

 

Another question, if i may...
Does everyone on this forum dose every 12 hours?
Or do some people dose more frequently?
Many thanks!

 

In the future you can tag specific people by putting the @ sign followed by their name. There have only been a handful of people that dosed every 8 hours. It requires an enormous amount of dedication to testing... and very little sleep.

I don’t know if moving to 5.5 is the right decision just yet. You had some nice blues the other day. I’d probably hold at 5 tomorrow and then try 5.25. @Kris & Teasel what do you think.

 

@JanetNJ
@Kris & Teasel

I'm not sure how to measure a 0.25 increment...
I use the 0.5ml u100's. So I'm confident with a 0.5 change, but unsure where i would position the plunger for a 0.25? I should add that my syringes do not have the half way marker.
Also, i asked the pharmacy if they stock 0.3ml, and they said no.
I will keep him on 5.0 tomorrow and see how he goes.
It's just i see the nadir getting higher and higher each day, so wasn't sure if i should be trying to lower it.

 

If you know for sure you are home and can check throughout the day, and feel he needs an increase then try it. It would be beneficial for you to get smaller needles with half unit markings for the future. These are the ones I use.


https://www.adwdiabetes.com/product/18553/ulticare-u40-pet-29g-3-10cc-1-2in-half-unit

 

I agree with Janet.

 

@JanetNJ
Hi Janet!

It's been a while.
Just wondered if you are my adviser?
And if not, how do i go about getting one please, if i want to start TR?
Many thanks

 

Canisilun is not dosed the same as lantus, so you can't do tr the same way. It looks like recently your cats numbers Have been good!

 

Oh right. I thought maybe they adapted TR to Caninsulin too?
Thanks all the same.