Info Dosing with calipers updated w/videos

Discussion in 'Lantus / Basaglar (glargine) and Levemir (detemir)' started by Marje and Gracie, Sep 25, 2012.

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  1. Marje and Gracie

    Marje and Gracie Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 30, 2010
    Many of us have noted, regardless which syringe we use (Relions, BD, Monojects), that the syringes are all very inaccurate and even the inaccuracy varies from syringe to syringe of the same brand and lot number.

    We were using Monoject syringes at the time and noticed that the amount of insulin in the hub, as well as the markings on the syringes, varied from shot to shot. In order to determine how inaccurate the syringes were and develop dosing with calipers, MJ (Donovan) sent me an adjustable micropipettor. 10 microliters on the micropipettor is equivalent to 1u. This allowed me to determine the exact amount in what was marked as 1u on the Monojects. What I found was that 1u, as marked on the Monoject syringes, varied from 14 - 15.2 microliters or 1.4 - 1.52 units. I tested several Monoject syringes and the majority came out as the 1u actually being 1.46u. I found other syringe brands were not as inaccurate but they all were.

    Calipers will help you dose more consistently but calipers are not required to dose. If you are comfortable with dosing without them, it will not affect whether your cat will go into remission. It's just a tool to dose more consistently and, if there is more than one person drawing doses, it allows both people to dose the same. Here is the link to the Harbor Freight 4" digital calipers we use just to provide you with an example. Using a light tracer box under the syringe and a lit magnifying glass to look at it from above will give lots of light to help with dosing.

    We made two instructional videos to help you. They are similar but the first one was a little dark but still has some good info that I couldn't remember for the second one. It's most important to recognize that different syringe types (e.g. Monoject, BD, Relion) will have a different millimeter measurement for 1u than I used in the video and where you measure from/to with the calipers will likely be different (especially if you are using BD syringes).





    I would suggest that if you are starting out dosing with calipers, first, ask around the forums to see if anyone else using calipers has already done the below measurements for the exact syringe type you are using. If they have, you can skip the process in the following paragraph because you will have the measurements you need (i.e. how many mm are in 1u for that syringe type) and you’ll just need to make your chart.

    Please be sure and measure the millimeters in 1u on your syringe type. To do this, find as many near perfect syringes as possible where the zero mark lines up perfectly at the top. Measure all of them to see if you can get a pretty consistent measurement in mm for 1u.
    Once you do that, you can calculate the remainder of your doses.

    I recommend you make a chart that you keep near your syringes. I made my chart in 0.1u doses but you can make yours however you wish.

    For example, when I developed this originally, I was using the Terumo U100, 0.3cc, 1/2-unit marking syringes (no longer available) where 1.52mm = 1u:
    0.15mm = 0.1u
    0.3mm = 0.2u
    0.38mm = 0.25u
    0.76mm = 0.5u
    1.14mm = 0.75u
    1.52mm = 1u
    etc.

    In addition to the videos, below are written instructions how to use the calipers once you know how many millimeters are in 1u on the syringe type you are using:
    • Draw the insulin dose as you normally do (drawing a little excess) and flick out the bubbles.
    • Slowly push the plunger in and expel insulin until you are close to but still in a little excess of the current dose.
    • Turn the calipers on, make sure you have selected mm (the "mm" will be in the lower left corner of the screen), push the caliper head all the way down so the arms are together and then hit the "zero" button to zero them out.
    • Move the caliper head in the opposite direction to "dial" in your mm setting that is equivalent to your dose. When the correct distance measure shows on the screen, tighten the screw down. Double check the number shown in the screen and make sure it hasn't changed (sometimes tightening the screw will cause the number to go up or down by .01). Once you have set the distance for a specific dose (e.g. on the Terumos, 1.52mm for 1u), then you do not need to change it unless you change the dose. If you change the dose, zero out the calipers again and then reset for the new measurement associated with your new dose.
    • In order to use the calipers correctly, the bottom of the upper caliper arm should line up perfectly with the plastic rings around the syringes where the zero line would be (the plastic ring might be located differently in syringes other than Terumos and Monojects). It might be off just a tad in the photos below but hopefully you will get the idea. Then the top of the bottom arm of the caliper should line up flush with the top of the plunger. Again...the Terumo is way off in the photo but the Monoject is pretty close so you can imagine what the Terumo should look like.
    [​IMG]
    TERUMO SYRINGE

    [​IMG]
    MONOJECT SYRINGE

    • Be sure you do not confuse millimeters and dose!!! For example, 1.52mm is NOT 1.5u. You must calculate the millimeters equated with a particular dose following the instructions above.
    • Please be sure and record the dose in the "U" column on the SS as "units". Please do not record the mm setting in the "U" column. We all measure a little differently and the syringes differ in barrel circumference, etc, so your mm measurement is likely different from mine; the important part is you are consistent with your measurements. A "mm" measurement in the "U" dose column tells us nothing about dose and providing good dosing suggestions becomes impossible (and unsafe). If you want to record the caliper measurement on your SS, please either make a separate column that distinctly labels it or, better yet, put it in the remarks section. It is really only to assist you, not anyone helping you.
    • Remember that when you are using calipers, you do not need to worry about the unit marking lines. I usually double check and just make sure my dose measured with the calipers is in the vicinity of the correct unit marking. In other words, if the current dose is 1u and you measure it with the calipers but when you look at the syringe, the plunger is near 2u, there is something wrong.
    If you have any questions or need any help, please be sure and ask. Many members are using calipers and can help or you can PM me. :D :D
     
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2018
  2. rhiannon and shadow (GA)

    rhiannon and shadow (GA) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2012
    Re: Dosing With Calipers

    I think the pictures show it very well.
     
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  3. Deb & Yahtzee

    Deb & Yahtzee Member

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2012
    Re: Dosing With Calipers

    AMAZING!!! Thank you Marje!! This is very helpful! I've been thinking seriously about getting a caliper but I wasn't 100% sure I'd even know what to do once I had one. Ok, I know that sounds a bit dumb, but I've only seen calipers used to measure the ID of pipes. Pictures speak a thousand words for sure!

    Thanks, as always, for teaching the community!!! You are so very cherished!
     
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  4. tortie58

    tortie58 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2012
    Re: Dosing With Calipers

    Thanks for the pic Marje! It's very clear & crisp.
    I am using the BG syringe, the pastic top is a bit different from the syringe here. The BD plastic forms a ring around the top of the syringe at the zero marking. I have to use the smaller opening side of the caliper to take the measurement instead of what you show in the pic because the bigger side cannot align against the syringe.
     
  5. Marje and Gracie

    Marje and Gracie Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 30, 2010
    Re: Dosing With Calipers

    You are all welcome.

    Aah, Deb!!! Thank you!!!!

    Helen...if you look closely, you will see a plastic ring around both of these where the zero marking should be. That's where I have the bottom of the top arm of the caliper.
     
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  6. MelanieAndRacci

    MelanieAndRacci Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 19, 2010
    Re: Dosing With Calipers

    Thank you Marje. I had an idea but wasn't sure how it was used. I'm thinking of getting a calipers.

    Do you pre-mark your syringes for dose o just hold it up to the wsyringe when ready?

    Melanie & Racci
     
  7. Angela & Blackie & 3 Others

    Angela & Blackie & 3 Others Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2010
    Re: Dosing With Calipers

    I'm also considering using calipers. So, the flat edge of the top of arm of the calipers needs to be level with the top of the line, and how do you measure the correct dose with them? I have several syringes which are inconsistent with being level at the beginning line (the top of the plunger being level, that is). Hope that makes sense. I'd like to be a bit more precise with her doses than off a drop or 2.
     
  8. Angela & Blackie & 3 Others

    Angela & Blackie & 3 Others Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2010
    Re: Dosing With Calipers

    I think I've figured out how to measure. I would need to premeasure the syringe first to the exact spot where her dose would need to be, draw like normal, and then gradually push plunger to meet where the level part of the bottom arm rests on the correct dose. I think that's how you measure... Correct me if I'm wrong. LOL
     
  9. Anne & Zener GA

    Anne & Zener GA Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 26, 2011
    Re: Dosing With Calipers

    Thanks Marje, these pics look very clear and it is easy to follow what you are doing. We finally got the technique down with the callipers and are continuing to use the MJ syringes. Using the calipers to confirm our "eye-ball" works great to relieve our anxiety over the poor quality of syringes for micro-dosing. It cut our time for preparing a shot in half! And we don't stress about this anymore. We never would have known about the calipers at all without you! :YMHUG:
     
  10. Lisa & Leo

    Lisa & Leo Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2012
    Re: Dosing With Calipers

    Thank you so much for the pictures! We are thinking about it too, since Leo seems to be so very sensitive to dose, and I'm trying to get better at counting drops. This seems like it will make the process more repeatable and quicker to do correctly.

    You're a great resource - thanks! :D
     
  11. Dyana

    Dyana Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2009
    Re: Dosing With Calipers

    Yes, thanks to you Marje for the caliper idea. It took me a few days to get used to them, but now I just grab a syringe and don't even have to worry where the zero line is on any given syringe, anymore. One less worry in my day, is good.
     
  12. Ella & Rusty & Stu(GA)

    Ella & Rusty & Stu(GA) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2010
    Re: Dosing With Calipers

    Great pics, Marje! THANK YOU!!!

    Ella & Rusty
     
  13. Pumbaa

    Pumbaa Well-Known Member

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    Apr 7, 2012
    Re: Dosing With Calipers

    Marje: Thank you to you and Mike for taking these photos! They are very clear! Job well done, and much appreciated! Now, one of these days I'm going to have to make the time to go to Harbor Freight and get some calipers and start trying to learn how to use them. That would make life so much simpler.

    Suze
     
  14. Tara & Buster

    Tara & Buster Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2012
    Re: Dosing With Calipers

    I am a huuuge fan of the calipers and I also use the Terumo syringes. My dosing has been far more consistent and I don't worry so much anymore (always gotta worry jut a little, don't we?). Thank you Marje for the information! Calipers are super easy to use and well worth the peace of mind.

    Just a tip: the shipping from Harbor Freight seems to be a bit slow. I ordered mine 2-day and they showed up in 4 :-|
     
  15. Ann & Tess GA

    Ann & Tess GA Well-Known Member

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    Jan 7, 2010
    Re: Dosing With Calipers

    Thanks so much for the pix , Marge and Mike.
     
  16. Marje and Gracie

    Marje and Gracie Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 30, 2010
    Re: Dosing With Calipers

    You are all very welcome!! Anything I can do to help us all get more consistency in dosing due to the inaccuracy of the syringes. Not all cats are sensitive to small changes but some are, including mine. I added the link to the Harbor Freight calipers in the first post with the pics in case anyone needs it.

    Angela...yes....draw in your syringe what you think is a "perfect" dose. Then measure it using the calipers as shown above. The bottom of the top arm needs to line up exactly with where the plunger rests against the needle side of the syringe. The top of the bottom arm will line up exactly with your dose.
     
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  17. Deborah & Shasta

    Deborah & Shasta Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2012
    Re: Dosing With Calipers

    I'm just now seeing this post and it excites me so much. Now I have to go practice using my calipers. Hmmm...cook dinner first or play with calipers?! Thank you, Marje & Mike! As usual, you guys are a wealth of knowledge and kind enough to share with the rest of us. Thank you!!!
     
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  18. Marje and Gracie

    Marje and Gracie Well-Known Member

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    May 30, 2010
    Re: Dosing With Calipers

    :YMHUG: :YMHUG: :YMHUG:
     
  19. Marje and Gracie

    Marje and Gracie Well-Known Member

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    May 30, 2010
  20. MrZ

    MrZ Well-Known Member

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    Aug 30, 2013
    Marje, thank you for this information. Unfortunately, I am unable to view the videos. Has anyone else had this problem?
     
  21. Marje and Gracie

    Marje and Gracie Well-Known Member

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    May 30, 2010
    Laura

    Not that I know of. I'm having some other members see if they can see them. I have them set to "unlisted" so anyone with the link should be able to see them. i don't want to set them as "public" on youtube because of my concern how someone not in LL would use them.

    I'll stay on it until you all can see them. Thanks for letting me know.
     
  22. MrZ

    MrZ Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2013
    Well darn it. Just my luck. Once the connection's made I just get a blank page. Not even any kind of error message. ohmygod_smile

    Update: I am now able to see the videos. Thanks Marje! You Rock!
     
  23. tiffmaxee

    tiffmaxee Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2013
    Marje these pictures and directions are really good. I appreciate what you have done and are doing for us every day!! Thank you so much. :YMHUG:
     
  24. Jill & Alex (GA)

    Jill & Alex (GA) Senior Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2009
    FYI: The German-Katzen Board created a paper template for fine dosing with BD syringes.
    The template is included in this document:

    You can print it out for your own use. However, please be aware the template is for those using BD Micro-Fine + Demi 0.3-mL U-100 syringes only.
     

    Attached Files:

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  25. julie & punkin (ga)

    julie & punkin (ga) Well-Known Member

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    Feb 17, 2011
  26. bsmith

    bsmith Member

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    Jan 26, 2015
    Has anyone ever tried microdosing by weight? Fairly accurate digital scales (not kitchen type scales, think finer scales for reloading or chemical use) are fairly inexpensive these days. Anyone tried it? Is there enough difference in weight between 0.25 u and 0.5 u of Lantus to accurately dose? If so, you could just weigh the syringe, zero the scale out, and then weigh your dose. That would take the variations between syringes (their marking and different weights) out of the equation.

    Just ordered a scale with o.o1 g precision. I hope that will work or I'll try one with 0.001 g precision. Too bad I don't have lab access at this moment or I'd go use one of their fancy scales to figure out the precision I need and if this will work.
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2015
    Reason for edit: More info
  27. Marje and Gracie

    Marje and Gracie Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 30, 2010
    I would imagine the syringes would also vary by weight. They are made by a machine. I think it would twke more time to do what you are proposing but it might be interesting to see what you find.
     
  28. tiffmaxee

    tiffmaxee Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2013
    I have one of those scales that I use for weighing Max's medications since his pills are impossible to cut. I just tried to weigh the syringe but the part where you place what you want to weigh is too small. Every time I tried to weigh the syringe I got different results.
     
  29. MJ+Donovan

    MJ+Donovan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2009
    Lab-quality scales that can weigh less than 1 mg cost thousands of dollars. If we assume that Lantus has the same density as water (likely it does not), then 1 unit of Lantus (10 microL) would weigh 10 mg. That's not something that a consumer-grade scale could weigh accurately.
     
  30. bsmith

    bsmith Member

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2015
    Thanks. As far as the different weights of individual syringes, that's why you place the empty syringe on the scale first and press the tare/zero button. Then, when you add insulin, the scale automatically subtracts the weight of that particular syringe and shows just the weight of the insulin.
    How big is the weighing platform on yout scale? The scale that I bought should be large enough to fit the syringes I use, which will help to get more consistent results(I hope). Also, some scales are more accurate than others. Have you ever calibrated your scale? That sometimes helps with accuracy. Although, if it accurately weighs things that do fit on the platform, I wouldn't worry about calibrating it. Thanks for trying it out with the scale you have.
     
  31. tiffmaxee

    tiffmaxee Well-Known Member

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    Nov 15, 2013
  32. bsmith

    bsmith Member

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2015
    100 u Lantus/ml, according to Lantus people (telephone call with transfer to a lab guy) use same density as water 1 g/ml, which gives 1 u =0.01g (10 mg, as you stated, please correct my math if I slipped again as I've had very little sleep lately). So one 1/4 u = 0.0025 g.

    The scale I ordered last night was off by an order of magnitude (it was late, I slipped a decimal place), but the one I ordered today will measure to a tolerance of 0.001 g with a large enough platform for the syringe ($23.00 US). I've haven't tried it yet, but "in theory," at least, it should work. For the last 0.0005, you may be able to get close by getting the scale to flip between 0.002 g and 0.003 g (hopefully it will be sensitive enough to do this). I'm hoping this will give better, or at least equal, reliability to using calipers or drop dosing. It's got to be better than my eyeball and magnifying glass method.

    Now to see if I have the manual dexterity to do this accurately. For my next trick, I will build a robot to control the plunger of the syringe (just joking). Or perhaps I should start trawling the scientific surplus and used equipment sites for used lab grade scales.

    (Just noticed you're from Worcester, MA. I went to grad school there. How's the snow been doing?)
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2015
    Reason for edit: Partial double post
  33. bsmith

    bsmith Member

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2015
    Thanks for showing me what you're using. Since the weighing platform is only 1 3/8" diameter, it would be difficult to balance a syringe firmly on that and get an accurate weight. You could try balancing a card or piece of cardstock on the platform to try to get a larger somewhat more stable platform. See if that helps.
     
  34. MJ+Donovan

    MJ+Donovan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2009
    I work in a lab, and when I want to put something in a test tube and get its weight, I put that test tube in a small cup so it stands upright. The scale I use for tiny amounts has 4 digits and can actually go to 5 digits, but I do not trust anything under 1 mg. Knowing that Lantus is similar enough to water in terms of density makes the math easy. You are correct in that 0.25U would be 2.5uL or 2.5 mg. There are glass microsyringes that will accurately measure these tiny volumes, but the problem is they would have to be sterilized after each use, and the needles for them are *not* the itty bitty skinny insulin needles. If someone would just figure out a proper diluent for Lantus that does not affect its chemical properties, all of this microdosing would be a nonissue. I believe some insulins have specific diluents for use in small children, but I don't know of any for Lantus.

    Yes, Worcester really got buried this year, and it's not over yet...
     
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  35. bsmith

    bsmith Member

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    Jan 26, 2015
  36. TheBowHuntress

    TheBowHuntress Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2012
    Oh it would be so much easier if insulin was a colored, not clear, solution!!!
     
  37. bsmith

    bsmith Member

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2015
    It's been suggested that one can make a reference syringe with food coloring (easier to see) and then just compare each syringe you fill with insulin to the colored reference syringe.
     
  38. Deborah & Gadget

    Deborah & Gadget Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2015
    I find this template of dosages print out in the link extremely helpful (I do use BD) and think all newbies would also. I ordered calipers and they are gret but this sheet of paper is so easy and practically guarantees quick and consistent dosing. I'm back to the link to print more so I can laminate one or two. I'm dosing 1 1/2 U so I'm not really into the microdosing yet But planning ahead, I ordered the calipers. Fingers crossed I can use them!
     
  39. Deborah & Gadget

    Deborah & Gadget Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2015
    Shoot.....I cannot find the template only the report? Did that link get moved?
     
  40. Ella & Rusty & Stu(GA)

    Ella & Rusty & Stu(GA) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2010
    Here's the link to the template. Make sure you are printing it on A-4 size paper. Otherwise it will not be to scale.
    http://www.diabetes-katzen.net/insulinruler.pdf

    Ella
     
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  41. Deborah & Gadget

    Deborah & Gadget Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2015
    Thanks for the heads up! I do not have A 4 paper and I called my copy shop and they don't even carry it. Any suggestions? I could order copies made online but no idea where to look.
     
  42. Ann & Tess GA

    Ann & Tess GA Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2010
    I think you just have to set your printer for A 4. The actual paper in the printer should make no difference.
     
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  43. Ella & Rusty & Stu(GA)

    Ella & Rusty & Stu(GA) Well-Known Member

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    Jan 11, 2010
    I think Ann is correct. I had some old A-4 paper, so just used that (it is the standard size in Europe). Thanks, Ann,

    Ella
     
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  44. Deborah & Gadget

    Deborah & Gadget Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2015
    That's what I had my copy place do so they printed it on longer paper with A4 setting and then cut and laminated it. Comparing it to the one I printed with settings for standard paper, there is quite a bit of difference in the larger amounts. The top row of smaller measurements appears identical.
     
  45. rhiannon and shadow (GA)

    rhiannon and shadow (GA) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2012
  46. Shiloh & Rhonda (GA)

    Shiloh & Rhonda (GA) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 9, 2015
    Marje, I think I have the idea of how to do the measurements with the calipers once you know the ml per unit. But my question is how do you figure that out?
    <----Scientifically challenged here.
     
  47. Marje and Gracie

    Marje and Gracie Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 30, 2010
    Be sure the calipers are on millimeters. Which syringes do you use? If it's BDs, you might want to PM @Wendy&Neko as she has the measurements for BDs. If it's Terumos, I've provided them above.

    For any others, find as many syringes as you can where the zero line is exactly where it should be (when you press the plunger in, the needle side of the plunger should line up perfectly with top of the needle side of the zero mark). Once you have several, measure how many millimeters are in 1u. Then divide by ten. So if 1u measures 1.6mm, than every 0.1u change will be done by adjusting the calipers 0.16 mm.

    Does that help?
     
  48. Shiloh & Rhonda (GA)

    Shiloh & Rhonda (GA) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 9, 2015
    I think so. I was trying to think about the diameter of the syringe and some complicated formulas, making it more difficult than it should have been. As usual! I use the Relion 3/10 100 u.
     
  49. Marje and Gracie

    Marje and Gracie Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 30, 2010
    It's very simple and straight forward. You don't need to worry about diameter. I don't have any measurements for the Relion. I'm sorry.
     
  50. Shiloh & Rhonda (GA)

    Shiloh & Rhonda (GA) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 9, 2015
    No problem. My husband is a HUGE fan of Harbor Freight. Especially since we just had a new one open and get coupons almost every week for free stuff. Will probably have him hit them up this week and see what we can find.
     
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  51. Lori & Lulu

    Lori & Lulu Well-Known Member

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    Mar 21, 2015
    Thank you so much for posting this Marje.:):)
     
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  52. Marje and Gracie

    Marje and Gracie Well-Known Member

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    May 30, 2010
    You're welcome!!! :):)
     
  53. Olive & Paula

    Olive & Paula Well-Known Member

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    Sep 6, 2015
    I just brought some calipers. I watched the video. I am not a math person by any means. But there are a couple of things I'm questioning.

    1. mm=metric meters
    ml=metric liters also (cc) this is how insulin is measured, units per cc.

    These are quite different.

    2. Is the insulin in the needle (not just the barrel) being accounted for?

    Trying to figure this out.
     
  54. Wendy&Neko

    Wendy&Neko Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2012
    mm = milimeters, which is a measure of distance. The calipers are not measuring the amount of insulin in the syringe, but rather how far up on the syringe barrel that you should draw insulin to. Since the lines on many syringes, including my BD's, have the zero line marked inconsistently from syringe to syringe, the caliper arms are a substitute for the unit markings on the barrel.

    You don't need to worry about the insulin in the needle, it should be the same no matter where you draw the plunger to.
     
  55. Ella & Rusty & Stu(GA)

    Ella & Rusty & Stu(GA) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2010
    Here is an explanation of the problem of the "cone" in the Monoject syringes. I sketched it several years ago and just today it seems to be relevant again. If the base of the needle doesn't go all the way to the zero line, any insulin in the cone will add to the dose.
    Ella

    [​IMG]
     
  56. Andy & Pimp

    Andy & Pimp Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2015
    Use coupon code 14253207 for 20% off single item at Harbor Freight Tools

    Also 6" caliper is on sale this month for $10.99 with code 19514709

    Good through Feb 2016



    coupons here
     
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  57. ohbell

    ohbell Well-Known Member

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    Apr 21, 2011
  58. Andy & Pimp

    Andy & Pimp Well-Known Member

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    Oct 18, 2015
  59. Marje and Gracie

    Marje and Gracie Well-Known Member

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    May 30, 2010
    I used my Harbor Freight one for over four years and never had one issue from it.
     
  60. tiffmaxee

    tiffmaxee Well-Known Member

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    Nov 15, 2013
    I'm about two years with the same one as Marje and no problems whatsoever. Mine are 4 inch.
     
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  61. ohbell

    ohbell Well-Known Member

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    Apr 21, 2011
    Thanks everyone!
    Just bought mine.....now to play with it
    Super excited..... amps: 168; +5=87; +7.75=80!!!!!!!:joyful:
     
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  62. Meridith and Zeke

    Meridith and Zeke Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2017
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  63. Girlie's mom

    Girlie's mom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2017
    Bump, bump, bump! Thanks so much, Marje and everyone! :)
     
  64. Marje and Gracie

    Marje and Gracie Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 30, 2010
    Yes...true. We have a Harbor Freight in town so it’s easy. But if you don’t, Amazon is good but you have to have Prime. Not everyone does. In that case, I’d order from HF because, unfortunately, you don’t always know that what you are getting from Amazon is the real deal. I’ve had it happen.
     
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  65. Meridith and Zeke

    Meridith and Zeke Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2017
    True but I always make sure on sellers and usually only purchase what can be shipped from an Amazon warehouse. Less chance of having a bad experience with an order.
     
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  66. Elinor & Sibon

    Elinor & Sibon Member

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2017
    Girlie's mom likes this.
  67. Girlie's mom

    Girlie's mom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2017
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