Edwin dosing questions, new diagnosis

I just started Edwin on Lantus last night. He's 10 lbs and received 1 unit. The vet wanted me to do two 1 unit shots per day.

His preshot reading last night (ReliOn confirm) was 203. +5 reading was 59, at which time I gave him some canned food he really likes to get him to eat. (I've also read all the hypo information and have karo syrup on hand.)

This morning his reading was 149, so no shot. I'm sure glad I'm testing. The vet suggested going to a single 1 unit shot per day, but others here have suggested going to 0.5 units. I'm also going to start +2 and +6 testing, as suggested by others here, in addition to the preshot testing.

Any thoughts about 1 unit versus 0.5 units? Also, his food situation is complicated by stage 2 kidney failure.

He's acting happy and normal so far today and was acting normal last night too. I have an introduction post up at http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/hello-from-edwin-first-lantus-shot-tonight.132396/ with more information.

 

You will want to split the dose in half (.5u) and give it twice a day.

To help explain why: the problem with giving only one shot a day with any insulin in cats is that cats metabolize it too fast so, in theory, that would be like a human getting insulin only every other day.

Add to that, the depot effect of insulins like Lantus and Levemir and once daily dosing will basically make the depot useless (you might as well use an in-and-out insulin instead) and it will be harder to see how the insulin is actually working.

 

For CKD and diabetes, I know a lot of people feed the Friskies Special Diet Pates because they're both low in carb and low in phosphorus. Recent studies have come out that it's the phosphorus levels you need to worry about and not the protein levels. In fact, cutting back on protein leads to muscle loss. I think someone already provided you with a link to Tanya's CRF page? He's a link directly to the page where she covers diet.

 

And finally, here's a link for pilling cats that might give you a few more ideas.

 

Thanks for the links. I emailed my vet with your information about doing the 0.5u dose twice a day. That idea makes more sense to me too. Also, given that his last BG was 149 mg/dL ~12 hours after his shot, what should I wait for his BG to get to before resuming insulin?

 

Although I don't have the experience to advise on the dosage I think I would go for the 0.5 unit twice a day as suggested by others to start with and work up from there if necessary . That way you will still provide good coverage but Edwin shouldn't drop as low. It is great that you are testing him.

I don't know about how long to wait. I guess until he gets to over 200. Or maybe you just miss this dose altogether? Hopefully others will chime in. He doesn't have a history of ketones does he? I see that you were shooting at midnight and midday. Maybe you could use this to move it to another time if it would work better for you.

 

We recommend for new members whose cats just started insulin or who may have just started testing to hold off on shots for numbers below 200 and to stall and see if it's a rising number and post here first for advice. Once you've gotten more data on how he reacts to the insulin, then this "no shot" limit can be gradually lowered.

 

There has been no history of ketones. Although, his initial BG reading at the vet was 400 (stress? different scaling? blood draw rather than ear prick?). Last night he was at 203, which is why I went ahead with the shot. At 149 today, I knew for sure to hold off. I'm just wondering now how far above 200 I should be before restarting insulin?

I'm a bit of a night owl, and my sleep has been extra funky lately, which is why I tend to be testing later and gave the dose later. If need be I'll see how much I can shuffle my schedule. Edwin and I tend to keep similar schedules anyways. Plus, it's probably better for him if I do the ear pricks when fully awake. The shots I could do half asleep, but for time being I want to be awake to monitor him afterwords. Since its been suggested I test at +6 also, I'll probably move shot time earlier. If his BG doesn't go up by this evening we'll probably just skip today and consult with the vet again tomorrow.

Still looking for an answer to how far above 200 I should be before resuming insulin.

 

We use 200 because it is generally a "safe" cutoff. If you're going to be around to monitor, I would suggest giving just .5u, whether it's 203 again or 253.

If his BG is still lower than 200 tonight after the skipped shot from this morning, then you might very well be looking at a kitty who is trying hard to go into remission.

 

Okay, Mr. Edwin has apparently decided he doesn't want to be diabetic anymore. Test tonight was 183. My vet said to give him the shot no matter what the number was, but that just seems plain goofy to me. I'm not giving him a shot. Any dissenting advice about skipping this shot too?

We'll see what tomorrow's number says and maybe double check at the vet that my meter is not just way off. I'll also order the control solution for the meter, but that won't get here for awhile. When I tested myself last night I was 66 after a long nap and not eating much all day (however, I've had blood sugar strangeness in the past). I just tested my mother and she is 110, 4 hours after eating. She's perfectly normal and has no blood sugar issues so the meter seems to be performing fine. Do you know if they'll check your meter at the Walmart pharmacy?

 

Yep, no shot tonight. Did you also change diet recently? Any chance he might have had an infection of some sort or a steroid shot?

 

Same diet as always (same for about 3 years). Only other meds are Adequan and Tramadol. No infection that I can tell, eating fine, eliminating fine, no watery eyes or sneezing or coughing. Urinalysis and blood tests a week and a half ago showed no infection. Acting happy and normal. Even his hair pulling seems to have stopped. I'm confused too. Maybe the special Bach flower treatment mix I started giving him last week is magic? Beats me, but I'm not complaining.

Also is there some issue with the spreadsheet template? As far as I can tell it's zero bytes. No data.

 

Actually, come to think of it, the only the I've done differently in the past few days was change the yogurt in his Tramadol mix back from vanilla to plain. Could 2 ml a day of yogurt with some added sugar make that much of a difference?

Just calculated it. The difference between vanilla and plain yogurt for 2 ml/day is only about 0.17 g of sugar/day. Pretty small. Of course the cat is small too.

 

I've read recently that just one or two bits of kibble can cause the blood glucose level to go by over 100 points so I am going to say yes I think it cat here is a thread in the technical section about spreadsheet problems.

 

BG up to 197 today. Gave 0.5 u. Will test at +2 and +6 and watch closely.

 

Looking good on 0.5 u Lantus.

PS 197
+2 107
+6 105

I'll see what the evening PS looks like.

 

He seems to be holding steady. Good job on getting those tests in!

 

Evening PS 152, so no shot since we're still begining and don't have enough data yet. I'd try to do 0.25 u, but it's just not possible to measure that. Does any one know of needles that go smaller than 3/10 cc? Any other suggestions? I guess for now I'll just stick with 0.5 u once per day. How much data should I collect before even considering dropping the Lantus shot limit to 150?

The spreadsheet template is still showing 0 bytes. Am I the only one having this issue?

 

I think for now, even though it's not standard, just keep doing what you're doing and only give shots when he's over 200. It really seems he has a sputtering pancreas that is helping keep his numbers down (a great sign that remission might be in your future), but it's also preventing you from being able to give shots BID (twice daily).

There are no smaller syringes or smaller increments besides .5u markings. Do your current syringes have the .5u markings or are you having to eyeball it? If they do have .5u markings, then it's easier to get that syringe halfway between the 0 and the .5u for a .25u dose.

The key is not accuracy, but consistency. As long as you consistently have the same volume for each shot, it doesn't have to be exactly .25. Some people use dosing calipers, some people count drops, some people use a ruler, some people use a comparison syringe with colored water to help them keep the dose consistent from shot to shot (and all of these also help to counteract any line discrepancies on the syringe itself). I use a combination of all the above, depending on what dose Mikey is at. Play with it for a bit and figure out which method is easiest in helping you draw up the correct dose every time.

 

And I'm not seeing your link to a spreadsheet. Is that what you mean is 0 bytes or are you trying to still create a spreadsheet?

 

I do have syringes with the half unit markings. I guess I'll get out my magnifying glass and see if I can eyeball a 0.25 u dose. That and counting drops might be my best bet. I'll also give the colored water comparison syringe a try if I think I can regularly get a 0.25 u dose. I'll look up dosing calipers. I have regular calipers, but I am unfamiliar with dosing calipers. (Just looked it up, dosing calipers and regular calipers are the same thing. I'll go find my digital pair. I'll bet that's easier than counting drops.)

For the zero byte spreadsheet sheet, I mean that when I go to download the spreadsheet template the file says it contains zero bytes. There is nothing in the template file at all. No template information or formatting to start from, just an empty file. I'm wondering if others are having this issue too or if it's just me and I need to try to download it from somewhere other than my tablet. I posted this issue in the tech forum too.

Thanks for all the good ideas. This forum has been incredibly helpful.

 

We eyeball 0.25 units; no retail syringes measure that minutely. You'd need an autoclave for the research/lab syringes that do.
If you have a couple of nadir period values which show the lowest is above 150 mg/dL, start by dropping your no shot limit to 175 mg/dL (9.7 mmol/L) on a human glucometer.

Just checking: You need to have a Google Drive Account and be logged in.
You download the file to your device/computer; then you immediately upload to your Google account. Do not enter data on your local device/computer.

Understanding the spreadsheet/grid:

The colored headings at the top are the ranges of glucose values. They are color-coded to clue you in as to meaning.

Each day is 1 row. Each column stores different data for the day.

From left to right, you enter
the Date in the first column
the AMPS (morning pre-shot test) in the 2nd column
the Units given (turquoise column)

Then, there are 11 columns labeled +1 through +11
If you test at +5 (5 hours after the shot), you enter the test number in the +5 column
If you test at +7 (7 hours after the shot), you enter the test number in the +7 column
and so on.

Halfway across the page is the column for PMPS (evening pre-shot)
To the right is another turquoise column for Units given at the evening shot.

There is second set of columns labeled +1 through +11
If you snag a before bed test at +3, you enter the test number in the +3 column.

We separate day and night numbers like that because many cats go lower at night.

It is merely a grid for storing the info; no math required.

 

Last night's PS 152 (so no shot), this morning's PS 281! Gave 0.5 u Lantus. 281 is way higher than anything I've gotten before. I think his pancreas took the night off.

Figured out the spreadsheet issue too. On a mobile device make sure to use the desktop version of the Google docs website, not the mobile version of the website.

 

+3 test down to 170. Good to see as 281 was higher than I've ever tested him. Spreadsheet figured out and posted in signature. The spreadsheet sheet instructions are a bit different if doing it from an iPad. I can post them in tech if anyone is interested.

 

Ohh, my goofy cat. AMPS 281, 0.5 u Lantus,+3 170, +6 88. PMPS 317 and gave 0.5 u Lantus. Where are these high numbers coming from all of a sudden? No changes to diet unless this is the change from 1/4 can of Friskies (chicken and ocean white fish with cheese) to Friskies (ocean white fish with cheese), which I changed to last night. However, there was no spike after feeding last night. Prefood BG 105, fed 1 hour later, prefood +6 152. Tonight prefood BG 88, fed then, prefood +6 317.

So confused. His pancreas is acting like the alternator I once had in my car, which was only "alternately" bad. It would act up until I took it into the shop and then it would work and test just fine.

Here's the real question. Going down to 0.25 u is obviously out of the question now. However, should I try going back up to 1 u, from 0.5 u, when his BG tests this high? The only thing that I worry about is how reactive he is to the Lantus. When I previously gave 1 u, I had to not dose for an entire day and a half before his BG rebounded enough to safely dose again. Also, today he went from a PS of 281 to 88 at +6 after giving 0.5 u.

Any suggestions? Any other changes that I should be looking for (he's eating, drinking, eliminating, and acting normally)? Have you seen this type of behavior in other cats?

Thanks

 

It could be the seafood spiking BGs. IIRC, @MommaOfMuse has a kitty that can't do seafood for that very reason.

No, hold the .5u for a minimum of 5 days/10 cycles. You've been having to skip shots up till now so the depot hasn't had time to build. Because of this, you won't see the full effect of the dose for 5-7 days initially.

 

In fact, if you get a BG under 50 at any point, you will want to decrease the dose further to .25u. That 88 today is a lovely nadir.

 

I've been wondering about him and fish lately. In the past few months he's seemed less into it. The canned food that was associated with the lower numbers had fish too, but less of it. I'll try a canned food with no fish tomorrow and see if that helps. I had not heard of fish spiking BG before. Very good to know. If this is what it is, some other kitties will be getting a nice donation of canned food with fish.

 

AMPS back down to 161, so no shot again. Last night he only ate half of the ocean whitefish and after KPassa's good insight I took the rest of it away. We'll go with no fish tonight and see what that does.

 

Looking good! Hopefully it is something as simple as seafood spiking those BGs.

 

Got rid of the ocean white fish with cheese and Edwin's numbers dropped dramatically. Gave 0.5 u Lantus last night, but no Lantus today as his numbers were not high enough. Also, I just noticed that the Friskies beef and liver dinner with cheese, which I started after stopping the fish, has fish as its 5th ingredient. That must be what makes it "dinner." I'm going to have to start reading the fine print on the labels.

At least he didn't really eat his canned food tonight. He ate it last night and afterwords his numbers were high enough for a shot. Tonight he just licked it a bit and took a bite or two. He's eating his dry food fine, but sometimes he's just not into certain wet foods after the first night. This isn't unusual.

Let's go to the canned food stock. Okay, three cans without fish and one of them is the shredded type he doesn't seem to like lately. Well, I was going to switch him over to Friskies special diet canned for his kidneys, as suggested by others here, anyways. I guess I'm just going to do that sooner than I thought.

I'll go give him some Friskies mixed grill and see if he'll go for that. Any other food suggestions for no fish canned foods for cats with kidney issues?

 

Also, I just noticed that fish meal is the 8th ingredient in the Hill's dry k/d. I may have to talk to the vet about this after seeing how his BG numbers react after feeding canned food with no fish for a few days.

 

My Mikey is allergic to red meats and I only feed them seafood once in a while so I created this sorted food list from the Catinfo.org list and separated out the protein types in separate tabs: foods that contain "red meats," poultry only, and foods that contain seafood. It might help you get started on narrowing down the options.

 

Mixed Grill runs about 11% calories from carbohydrate.
By the way, having a CRF cat doesn't automatically mean you must feed a prescription diet. Pop over to Tanya's Feline CRF website and cross check the food list there with the one at Cat Info for foods that meet the low phosphorus, low carb criteria.

 

Wow, that's a lot of info to sort through. The one good thing about the dry k/d is that Edwin really likes it. It is pretty high in carbs though. With the mixed grill, I was just going with what I had on hand at the moment. Trying to avoid fish is tricky as they sometimes slip it in when it's not expected, like in the beef and liver with cheese. It's also 1/4 can. The majority of what he is eating is the k/d.

Thanks to all who have sent links and other ideas.

Just looked at his test results and it looks like mixed grill may be spiking him a bit, but maybe not. When I look at his food I gave it to him at AMPS+6, PMPS up to 226, but when I look at the food at PMPS +2 almost none is gone. It's licked at bit and maybe 1/4 - 1/3 gone. Hmmmm... Befuddling. Still can't get him on a schedule where I can dose twice a day even though I've gone down to 0.25 u at a time.

 

Another no insulin day. AMPS 137, AMPS +6 159, PMPS 161. I've been through the food list and hope to talk to the vet and then be able to go out to get the foods that qualify as low carb/low phosphorus/no fish. Hopefully Edwin will eat them.

I'm not sure how my vet will feel about me wanting to take Edwin off Hill k/d. I'm thinking of changing to Hill Senior 11+ Indoor Age Defying. Slightly higher phosphorus % (0.60 [senior indoor] vs 0.50[k/d]), but lower carbs % (30.7 vs 44) and higher protien % (35.2 vs 27.8), and no fish. (Except for fish oil. Does that make a difference?) The dry food data is taken from Tanya's felinecrf.org page. (Please note that there is a Hill Senior 11+ Indoor Age Defying and a Hill Senior 11+ Age Defying listed there.) I'm still sorting through canned foods.

Any opinions on the dry food change? Is it a good trade off - slightly higher phosphorus for lower carb and no fish? I'm hoping, given his trend towards days where his BG is too low for insulin, that a diet change may make the difference.

 

Young Again is developing/has developed a low carb "senior" dry food with fewer of the problematic minerals. You might check them out.

 

Thanks. I checked out their website, but it does not seem that they are offering that product yet. Thanks also for all the links and information you've sent my way. You've been very helpful in sorting through all this new (to me) cat health information.

 

I have been communicating with a Young Again rep, and she says the the Senior formula will hopefully be available next week. I received a sample of it. My cat initially went at it, but now he is not so interested. He's just been extra picky lately, so who knows? You should contact them to get a sample.

 

Thanks for the heads up. I'll contact them about a sample. It's good to know it will be available so soon. Do you know if it contains fish?

 

You should be able to ask them directly; just tell them your cat is "allergic" to seafood and they should be able to help. From everyone who has contacted Young Again directly, I've only heard fantastic things about their customer support.

 

No, they didn't send me an ingredient list, only the nutrient composition. They have been very helpful every time I've contacted them.

 

In the nutrient composition did they give the % of phosphorus? Edwin is in stage 2 kidney failure already, so that's important. Do you know of any good review sites that look at YA? I've been googling about a bit.

I'll give YA a call tomorrow. I'm trying to figure out what the price difference will be between YA and Hill k/d. YA says an 8 lb bag lasts a month to a month and a half. The k/d 8.5 lb bag lasts 2 months or so (I think). I always seem to have vet receipts about, but they all seem to have mysteriously vanished. I bet Edwin took them. Always blame the cat. I'll have to call the vet and get them to look at their records.

(Edwin' sister Irene, who passed, used to love to shred paper. I didn't need to buy an actual shredder. I'd just put the papers into a specific box and she'd take care of them for me. Worked well, except for that one time my cat really did eat my homework.)

Edwin continues to not really want to be diabetic. No shots at all yesterday, today's AMPS 258 (gave 0.25 u), tonight's PMPS 149. I'm really hoping that some food changes might sort this out. Even if the YA food is pricier, it would still be cheaper than 10 ml Lantus vials, needles, and test strips. Plus, it's way less work. I'm all for the lazier option if it works.

 

My cat is picky about food and I just got some Evo in yesterday and convinced her that they were treats. She knows the word 'cookie' so this has now become her cookie after ear pricks.

http://www.chewy.com/cat/evo-turkey...lkW4ETqM7jG4V7r_0DNI6NRgxf4rIjTuPcaAqSX8P8HAQ

 

The YA Mature has .58-.65 of Phosphorus in the dry matter analysis. My Colby is showing signs of early renal failure, as well, so I've been looking for foods w/ the lower phosphorus. I hope this works for you. I think I might be able to get Colby to eat it as an alternative, but he will always crave the high carb kibble that the other kitties get. Poor guy.

I'm attaching the file for the YA analysis. I hope it works!

 

It works. Thanks! I'm wondering if I should try a food that is lower in carbs than his current k/d before trying to take him down to "zero" carbs. Maybe that would make the transition easier. However, if there is no fish in this, still haven't called, I might just get a sample and see if he goes for it.

 

I emailed them just now to ask about the fish, in case you don't get a chance to call. I've been communicating with one of their salespeople, Jen.

That's funny about your shredding cats. My sister has a cat who chews on everything! She has to wrap all of the electrical cords in thick plastic. He also ruined a book collection when he was staying at someone else's house--chewed all the corners.

 

Thanks for emailing. I was out all afternoon. I finally got some canned food that meets the low phosphorus/low carb/no fish specifications.

As far as the shredding, I have a very expensive leather bound book whose corners are all missing. Mmmm... leather. At least my cat stayed away from electrical cords. We had a friend's dog locked in the garage for a bit, while we went out briefly, and he chewed through all the live wires by the garage door. Didn't bother the dog a bit, but he wasn't a terribly smart dog to begin with.

 

Finally got Edwin started on friskies special diet low carb no fish canned a week ago. Tonight started mixing in Hill's science diet senior 11+ indoor age defying in with his regular Hill's k/d. His numbers tonight have been through the roof. Way higher than ever before.

PMPS 355
0.25 u Lantus
PMPS +2 411
Must have been fur shot another 0.25 u Lantus
PMPS +4 349
PMPS +6 344 (edited post to add PMPS +6, 2 fur shots? 2?)

What in the world is going on? He's acting fine, so at least there's that. Is this a reaction to the new dry food? I started switching him to the new food because it's lower in carbs, but still very low in phosphorus for his kidney failure issues. The age defying doesn't have fish, but does have fish oil. The k/d has actual fish meal as an ingredient.

Is there an issue going on also with the Friskies special diet beef and chicken entree? His numbers have been higher the past four days I've been feeding it. No fish there. Some other ingredient? Has his pancreas decided to go on vacation? I'd think about upping his dose, but sometimes 0.25 u drops his numbers like a rock.

And what's with all the fur shots I've been giving all of a sudden? I even gave one with his Adequan the other week. At least with 0.2 ml you know immediately that you missed, as the meds go geysering all over.

 

Might depend on the glycemic index of the carbohydrate source(s). Some carbs are more easily digestible than others and can shoot up the glucose quickly; others are a bit slower.

 

The glycemic index could definitely make a difference. I hadn't thought of that. Do you know of a place where glycemic index data on cat foods is available? Tanya's CRF site doesn't include that data and neither does the Cat Info site. Is there somewhere else to look for that information? I've goggled about a bit, but you have all the good links.

In addition, he hasn't had access to the possibly offending food for over 7 hours. His AMPS was still 386. The vet said that as long as he continues to act normal that there is no need to bring him in. I'm just hoping that his BG drops soon.

At AMPS gave short 0.5 u, a bit more than normal, AMPS +2 215, will watch closely and test at +4 and +6 to make sure I haven't tipped him over.

 

I finally called Young Again and asked about the Zero Carb Mature Health. No fish, as they are concerned about iodine levels. They're sending me a sample. Let's see if Edwin likes it and if it spikes his BG numbers or not. Thanks again for that spreadsheet.

His numbers are continuing to come down AMPS +3 189. So much better than those icky 400s.

 

That's good. For some reason, they never got back to my email question about the fish. Colby loved it at first, and then didn't want any. But that's just the way he's been lately. Who knows....

 

Cat's can be so goofy about food. Edwin has done that with a number of canned foods. One day it's his favorite. The next day he won't touch it. Same thing with toys and scratching posts. That's why I now only buy toys that I'll enjoy playing with after he's done with them. That'll learn him.

 

Exactly! I give up on toys. Milk jug rings are the favorite around here!

 

Update on Edwin:

BG numbers have finally returned to the levels they were at before trying to switch food. I received the sample pack of the Young Again Zero Carb Mature Health food and will try it as soon as he's been stable a bit longer.

I went to the vet today as something else strange started right after the night I tried to switch his food. His stomach has been swollen hard and distended. He's also been doing that crouch that cats do when they're uncomfortable. Just in the past day or two his belly has started to soften a bit and he seems less uncomfortable, but it's still a bit worrisome. The vet did an ultrasound to check for fluid or masses. (After losing his sister years ago to FIP I'm a tad paranoid. I totally didn't wake up last night and shake him a bit to make sure he was still breathing. I thought I got that behavior stopped years ago.)

Anyways, no fluid or masses on the ultrasound or felt by the vet. He has lost some weight so maybe just the loss of some muscle tone around his belly? Hopefully the forti flora will get him eating a bit more. He's still eating, but perhaps a bit less. That and his breath smells like rotting garbage (starting at the same time as the swollen belly). I checked in his mouth and the vet checked too, but neither of us saw anything strange.

Hopefully he'll continue to be stable and possibly put on a bit of the lost weight. I'm also considering starting him on B12 (methylcobalamin) supplements for appetite and his kidneys. The vet is double checking to make sure that B12 won't interfere with his other meds and issues. Edwin is still happy and seems to be enjoying himself. He is 16 1/2 years old, so I'm just looking to keep him feeling happy and comfortable a bit longer.

 

I'm sorry to hear that Edwin is having trouble. I know that crouch you're referring to, all too well! I guess the vet ruled out pancreatitis? I don't know about the swelling, but that could definitely cause some discomfort. The forti flora has been a life saver at my house. My Colby gets an B12 injection every week, and I was giving the Zobaline (which has folic acid and methylcobalamin). May I ask, what is the Bach flower remedy for? Is Edwin a nervous cat? Or is there some other reason you are using it?

Hopefully, Edwin will be feeling better soon!

 

Edwin seems to be feeling better today. He ate well last night, his BG is looking good, and his stomach is feeling less swollen and hard. I assume the vet ruled out pancreatitis during the ultrasound, but she didn't do any blood work. He did have the full senior blood work up last month.

The discomfort of just a swollen stomach (no pancreatitis) is something I have personal experience with. It's very unpleasant. I haven't seen Edwin doing the pain crouch today so I think we're moving in the right direction.

Did you give Colby the the B12 injections or is that something your vet does? I have some capsules of methylcobalamin that I'll probably just add to his canned food.

As far as the Bach flower remedy, Edwin has always been a bit of a 'fraidy cat. I have a calming collar on him and sometimes use feliway spray too. A few months ago he licked all the fur off his front leg from pain. I started using Bach's Rescue Remedy regularly at that point.

When it became clear that I was going to be adding Bach's for a longer period of time, I purchased some of the individual remedies. It's advised that if you are going to use Bach's remedies long term that you do a mix of specific remedies instead of the broad rescue remedy mix. The information on what specific remedies address in pets can be found here. Crab apple, in particular, is very good for cats who are over grooming (after licking the fur off his arm Edwin started licking some othe spots) or have rashes.

Since using the specific blend of Bach's, Edwin has stopped licking bald patches. Making a mix is easy. A 30 ml dropper bottle, two drops of each remedy (up to 6-7 kinds), 1 tsp of glycerin, and fill the rest with water. I purchased some of the individual remedies from http://www.luckyvitamin.com . They sell them for half the price of getting them directly from Bach's. I also made a mix for myself using the human remedy references found here.

If you're interested in trying a specific mix for your cat, or you, let me know. Just give me a list of the specific remedies that address the issues at hand and, if I have those remedies, I'll mix you up a batch and send it to you. I've used Bach's Rescue Remedy for years (on myself, my cat, friends, and family members) and am a big believer in it.

 

I have a forum politeness question. Now that Edwin has been on Lantus for over three weeks, should I move to posting updates on the Lantus forum and stop posting here on the main forum?

 

I'm happy to hear that Edwin is feeling better tonight. Yes, I give Colby the B12 injections myself. The vet gave me a bottle of it. If I understand correctly, regular B12 is good for pancreas problems, but the methylcobalamin is good for diabetic neuropathy. I'm pretty sure the injections I'm giving are just regular B12, and that the other doesn't come in an injectable form.... at least that's what I think I read somewhere.

I read some about the Bach flower essences many years ago when I had an extremely shy dog. I never did try them. Both my sister and I have neurotic cats (mine is not the diabetic one) that tend to get picked on by the other cats in the household. Hers licks his fur off his legs and stomach. Both kitties have had idiopathic cystitis. I tried the calming collars and the Feliway spray once. I really couldn't tell if it helped, but may give it a try again. The thing is, I wasn't sure who to put it on... the cat who was picked on, or the cat who was doing the bullying! Thanks for all the info on the essences and for offering to send me some! I may take you up on that! I really think all 5 of my cats could stand some calming. My dog and Colby are about the most normal, well adjusted animals in the house (including myself!). Does the glycerin that you mix it with have any effect on Edwin's blood glucose?

 

I think the injectable form of B12 is usually cyanocobalamin. I would be using the oral methylcobalamin as much for his diabetes as for his stage 2 kidney failure issues and appetite issues.

Edwin's down almost a pound since his last checkup a month ago. It would be nice to see him gain some of that back. He's on the skinny side of normal at this point, but some of that might also be muscle loss from his arthritis. He's got old man butt now. You know how some real old guys look like they've worn all their butt off and it's now flat or concave. Same thing, but on a cat. Of course, Edwin is an old man himself so he's earned that butt.

For the calming collars I would try putting it on both the bully and the bullied cat. I would look for sales on the three packs. PetCo had a sale last month with $18 for the three pack. The three packs might be having a production problem lately as the price on Amazon has really spiked. Drugstore.com also sometimes has sales or coupons on settle down collars, which are the same thing.

The crab apple might very well help with your sister's cat's licking. In any case, any mixture won't harm any of your animals. It just won't work at the worst. The glycerin is 1/5 of the mixture, but you add just four drops of the mixture to about a cup of water. It's a really minimal amount.

(An aside: has your sister tried putting a long sleeve infant tshirt on her cat to stop the arm and stomach licking? That helped Edwin. I just bought plain infant long sleeve tees. You have to buy them in a larger size so they are not so tight in the armpits [only classic zombie babies keep their arms stuck out in front of them all the time and there's no zombie baby section in the store.] Then you just take the shirts in a bit in at the neck and shorten the sleeve length some. Don't buy the baby shirts with snaps. Cat's hate snaps.)

If you want to try the regular Bach's rescue remedy on your cats you can use the human or pet version. The human version uses brandy as the preservative, while the pet version uses glycerin. However, considering that you're just using four drops in a cup of water, either is fine for pets. All the other ingredients are the same and often the human version can be found at a lower price.

Check out the symptoms list for the individual remedies. Maybe one mix for your sister's cat (to address the licking) and one for your five cats (who just need some calming)? Since I've already ponied up the money for the individual remedies, each new mix is really inexpensive. I'm pretty sure I have extra empty dropper bottles somewhere.

 

Thanks, that gave me my laugh for the day. Now I can get on with it and have a smile on my face!

 

Chortle!
.

 

What brand of calming collars have you used? I can't remember what brand I used before, but I think I will give them another try. The bullied cat is peeing in places other than his pan! Petsmart has the Sentry brand ones on sale right now.

"Classic zombie babies...", you're too funny! Unfortunately, my sister's kitty would need a whole body suit, b/c he licks both his front and back legs, along with his stomach. We joke that he's trying to give himself a poodle cut....I will definitely tell her about the crab apple.

So, you really think the calming remedy helps Edwin? I would like to give it a try, if you really don't mind.

Oh, and I know what you mean about "old man butt", Colby has one too!

 

I've used the Sentry brand mostly and sometimes the Vetscription brand. As far as I can tell they're pretty much the same. They claim on the boxes to be lavender scented, but whoever thought that has obviously never smelled lavender. I refer to Edwin as "grape ape" right after I put a new one on him. Peeing outside of the pan is never fun, at least for the human. I hope a calming collar might help. One caution, the collars claim to be breakaway but they're not. Make sure it's loose enough that your cat can get out of it if needed.

As far as your sister's licking cat, they do make full body suits. Search for "pet clothing" on Amazon, but beware ahead of time that it's a long and scary ride. Did you ever think that all he really wants is to be a poodle? Get out the clippers, give him the poodle cut he so dearly wants, and then knit him a new sweater using this book (the reviews are great).

I think the calming remedy has helped Edwin, but of course every cat is different. He's always been a bit of a neurotic licker, but until recently he didn't actually lick to the point of thinning or bald patches. As far as the vet and I can tell, he's stopped the over grooming and the last spot he was going after is growing new fur. At the very worst, any mixture I make just won't work so it doesn't hurt to try it out.

I'm glad to know Edwin isn't the only cat in the "old man butt" club. He'll be so relieved to know he's not alone.

 

A bit of an update on Edwin. I think he's getting close to going OTJ! I received my sample of Young Again Zero Carb Mature Health a couple of weeks ago. Thanks to all of you who suggested it. I mixed it with his Hill's k/d and he loved it. I placed an order for the 8 lb bag and got it last week.

Switching foods has been a bit bumpy. His stomach got really hard again, like with the trial change to the other Hill's Science Diet, but at least this time he did not seem to be in pain. The hard stomach happened with the YA sample too. His stomach is just really sensitive. However, the YA did not spike his blood sugar like the Hill's Science Diet.

Just to let others know, the YA Zero Carb Mature does contain fish oil even though the rep I spoke to said that it did not contain any fish. I assume it is good quality fish oil as cats who have issues with fish sometimes do okay if the fish oil they do get is high quality. Another note on fish, I noticed on Hill's website that their new k/d formulation no longer contains fish meal. An interesting change.

So, after loving the sample of YA, Edwin decided that he no longer really loved it once I received the 8 lb bag. I ended up ditching the slow feed bowls and offering him a variety of bowls with YA and k/d mixed and bowls with just YA. I scattered the bowls throughout the house. (I may have garnished the edges of some of them with catnip and treats too. Fancy.) In addition, he also stopped eating his canned food and even forti flora didn't tempt him (it was my first time trying forti flora and I don't think he likes it). He was still eating a little bit of dried food, and the dried chicken and dried beef liver treats that he really likes, so it wasn't as if he stopped eating totally.

Anywho, his stomach has finally softened up (massaging it helped) and he's started eating more of the dried food and some of his canned food. I just started adding B12 (MethylCobalamin) to his Tramadol mix, which has perked up his appetite and, as a bonus, seems to make the Tramadol more palatable. His BG numbers are looking good, still a bit high, but not high enough to give him any insulin. He has not had any insulin for six days. I'm hoping that once we transition totally to the YA food only (no k/d mixed in) that his numbers will continually remain in the normal range.

I just wanted to check with others who have more experience that not giving him any insulin with his current numbers, even the slightly high ones, is appropriate. Edwin's always been so sensitive to Lantus that I never managed to use it properly, i.e., build up a depot, and he has a tendency to drop quickly even with only small doses. I'm still testing his BG twice daily, some days at his normal preshot times and other days at times near where his nadir used to be. Is this an appropriate way to be testing?

Any other suggestions on getting Edwin to eat more? I still feel that he is not eating enough and he's still on the lower side of normal weight. Of course, I should probably know better as in the past I've found that sometimes he eats a lot and sometimes he doesn't eat much. I may very well be worrying for nothing. Overall, this is excellent news!

 

Suggestions on How To Stimulate Kitty's Appetite

 

It might be worth posting a new question to seek advice on microdosing of Lantus. When Saoirse was coming close to becoming diet-controlled, I was able to keep her numbers a bit tighter by using such techniques. SID dosing helped as well.

 

Do you think I should post that question here or over in the Lantus section?

 

I think the other way to get your cat to eat better is just to post something asking how to get him to eat more . He ate much better today. I went through the section on appetite on Tanya's CKD page (I forgot about that section). I was able to rule out any causes for inappatince that would require vet intervention. I did raise his food bowls. Maybe that's what did it. I've tried many of the things suggested on the page you linked, but the oregano suggestion was a new one to me. I'll try that on his canned food since he's still not really eating that. Do you know if I have to powder the oregano or can I just use dried flakes?

 

I think it might be better to post the question on the Lantus board.

Re the oregano tip, I've not used it but I'd be inclined to powder the dry herbs before adding them to food: they'd probably mix in better.

 

Posted to Lantus board: http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/...le-microdosing-of-lantus.134914/#post-1391075

I powdered the oregano and got some up my nose, but it's still better than taking oregano oil straight. That oil burns and makes everything taste like oregano for days after. Edwin did show some interest in the canned food that I mixed the oregano powder into and ate some of it. Oregano, who would have thunk it?

 

Edwin's OTJ party http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/edwins-otj-party.135202/