Elmo PMPS 234.....what is going on ????

Discussion in 'Feline Health - (The Main Forum)' started by Beth 73, Dec 20, 2016.

  1. Beth 73

    Beth 73 Well-Known Member

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  2. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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  3. Beth 73

    Beth 73 Well-Known Member

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    I don't know... I am totally confused....
     
  4. Beth 73

    Beth 73 Well-Known Member

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    I don't know what to give tonight.....holistic vet said it didn't sound like he had a uti...urine output was normal today...that number shocked me...I am a bit shaken
     
  5. Beth 73

    Beth 73 Well-Known Member

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    So glad I have you all ....
     
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  6. Beth 73

    Beth 73 Well-Known Member

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    Only out of ordinary thing was about 5am this morning I checked on him and he was sound asleep...didn't respond to,petting and when I picked him up he was a little limp but came fully awake....that was scary
     
  7. Beth 73

    Beth 73 Well-Known Member

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    My holistic vet said to only up thy dose by 1/2 for a 3/4 pill dose
     
  8. Beth 73

    Beth 73 Well-Known Member

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    He is laying on couch now....been sleeping most of day , as usual....
     
  9. Beth 73

    Beth 73 Well-Known Member

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    Should I increase dose tonight????? I will feed him in 30 minutes and shot in one hour
     
  10. Critter Mom

    Critter Mom Well-Known Member

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    How far along in the cycle was this, Beth?

    And how long after the thyroid med dose?

    .
     
  11. Critter Mom

    Critter Mom Well-Known Member

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    If he were mine I would not increase the dose - especially on a night time cycle.

    .
     
  12. Beth 73

    Beth 73 Well-Known Member

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    About +11 this morning.....about 9 hours after thy med....then gave it again at +1.5 this morning....it goes out of their system in 12 hours
     
  13. Beth 73

    Beth 73 Well-Known Member

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    In kitchen now meowing to be fed...
     
  14. Beth 73

    Beth 73 Well-Known Member

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    Could be combined stress and thy med increase
     
  15. MrWorfMen's Mom

    MrWorfMen's Mom Well-Known Member

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    Did Elmo eat his usual meals today or could he have gone lower at some point while visiting with Dr. Pat and is now bouncing? Also, I'm wondering if doubling the thyroid med has now slowed his whole system down and that cats do get the effect of a thyroid med increase faster than humans. I know Menace has sometimes sent me into panic mode just as Elmo did to you today but I have always found she was running high rather than low so it's likely he's off because of the higher number he's now unaccustomed to.

    I'm with Mogs. I never change things up on a night cycle unless it's a dose reduction. I'd go with the same dose as before. Better too high for the night and back to puzzling him out tomorrow.
     
  16. Beth 73

    Beth 73 Well-Known Member

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    So stay with the full .25 ????
     
  17. Beth 73

    Beth 73 Well-Known Member

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    I will be up regardless after this ...
     
  18. Critter Mom

    Critter Mom Well-Known Member

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    No. Needs to be lower. Let me look at Elmo's spreadsheet for a few minutes ...
     
  19. Beth 73

    Beth 73 Well-Known Member

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    Last time I checked was +4 and he was 130....let him be after long day yesterday....I knew in my gut to not double that thy dose and Dr Pat confirmed it today..to only go up by another 1/4 and test in a month...
     
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  20. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    This AM you gave 0.25 u minus small drop. I certainly wouldn't increase at night. Stay the same?
     
  21. Beth 73

    Beth 73 Well-Known Member

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    I did give .25 minus one small drop.....I don't know, Kris...I trust you alls judgement /experience right now ....
     
  22. MrWorfMen's Mom

    MrWorfMen's Mom Well-Known Member

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    I have to admit that I thought the increase in the thyroid med was a bit aggressive. My sister-in-law has hypothyroid and her dose was last adjusted by 0.112mg. I know this is the opposite problem to Elmo's but if humans can be effected by that small a dose adjustment, then one would logically think a tiny cat would need even finer dose adjustments whether hyper or hypo thyroid was involved. Given cat's higher metabolism though, that might not be the case.

    Beth, none of us are experts with hyperT (or diabetes for that matter because we are always learning!) so the next time your gut tells you not to follow the vet's advice, don't be afraid to raise that flag. You know Elmo much better than any of us or your vets. Our advice was based on not changing everything at once and muddying the waters making it more difficult to get a handle on things and I still think that is the best course of action.
     
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  23. Critter Mom

    Critter Mom Well-Known Member

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    Has Elmo been a bit sleepier than normal today - or possibly a bit 'wiped out'?

    Also, can you give me about 10 mins or so to look at his info and have a think?

    .
     
  24. Beth 73

    Beth 73 Well-Known Member

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    between you all and having that appointment today with DrPat(which I planned a week ago just cos) I am breathing deep and know everything is going to be all right!!!
     
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  25. Beth 73

    Beth 73 Well-Known Member

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    Yes yes yes....he is currently eating well...seems perfectly normal...
     
  26. Beth 73

    Beth 73 Well-Known Member

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    Not really wiped out...except for that scary brief weakness this AM he has been normal
     
  27. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Trusting your gut is usually the way to go. It rarely lets you down. He should be fine on that dose, Beth. You can relax.
     
  28. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    What time was that relative to the increased thyroid meds dose?
     
  29. Beth 73

    Beth 73 Well-Known Member

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    .25,or .25 minus one small drop???
     
  30. Critter Mom

    Critter Mom Well-Known Member

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    Thinking cap on. Back shortly ...
     
  31. Beth 73

    Beth 73 Well-Known Member

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    9 1/2 hours...3 hours from it being out of his system..
     
  32. Beth 73

    Beth 73 Well-Known Member

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    I've got my daughter texting me that her friends new puppy has parvovirus and is hospitalized...hopefully I can keep my conversations straight here;)
     
  33. Beth 73

    Beth 73 Well-Known Member

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    Take ur time, Mogs..it is well and everything is going to be well in Elmo land....bit confused but well:bighug:
     
  34. Beth 73

    Beth 73 Well-Known Member

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    :bighug::bighug::bighug::bighug::bighug::bighug::bighug::bighug::bighug::bighug::bighug:
     
  35. Critter Mom

    Critter Mom Well-Known Member

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    Just to confirm:

    5am = PM+11?? Is this correct?

    .
     
  36. Beth 73

    Beth 73 Well-Known Member

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    Yes
     
  37. Beth 73

    Beth 73 Well-Known Member

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    5AM is one hour before I take AMPS at 6AM and 2 hours before I give shot at 7AM
     
  38. Critter Mom

    Critter Mom Well-Known Member

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    So relative to the injection time it's PM+10. Helpful info. Still thinking ...
     
  39. Beth 73

    Beth 73 Well-Known Member

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    After I give his insulin I'm going to emergency text DrPat for thy med advice ...
     
  40. Beth 73

    Beth 73 Well-Known Member

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    Take ur time , Mogs
     
  41. Critter Mom

    Critter Mom Well-Known Member

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    Beth at what actual clock time did you do last night's PM+11 test for the spreadsheet?

    .
     
  42. Beth 73

    Beth 73 Well-Known Member

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    Yes
     
  43. Beth 73

    Beth 73 Well-Known Member

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    Actual clock time was 5AM
     
  44. Beth 73

    Beth 73 Well-Known Member

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    It was early this morning..about an hour before I get up at 6
     
  45. Beth 73

    Beth 73 Well-Known Member

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    Got ahold of Dr Pat and she said skip thy dose tonight....my gut feeling again but is nice when there is backup
     
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  46. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    That thyroid dose increase is the only thing different today.
     
  47. Beth 73

    Beth 73 Well-Known Member

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  48. Beth 73

    Beth 73 Well-Known Member

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    Yep it is...she is the best...gave me her own cell number for emergencies...
     
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  49. Critter Mom

    Critter Mom Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the info.

    Just to confirm I've got facts straight, you noticed the odd symptoms at 5am and you did the BG test at that time and the result was 177.

    Vetsulin's crystalline fraction typically kicks in at about +7 and may produce a dip in BG between +7 and +10. I was just a little concerned that Elmo might have had an uncharacteristic dip in BG which might then have had something to do with his being slightly out of it at 5am when you roused him. With the previous BG of 133 I think it unlikely that he went low.

    It's tricky when a new variable is introduced (the T meds) so it's always wise to be cautious.

    One possibility why PMPS is higher tonight is that Elmo had a slightly larger drop this morning - elevated AMPS and lower nadir without any food steering. I wonder whether there might be a bit of bounciness and a bit of med change in tonight's higher PMPS?

    Assuming that you're OK to monitor Elmo, I'd suggest doing the 0.25-small drop tonight, Beth.

    @Kris & Teasel, @MrWorfMen's Mom - will either of you be around to keep an eye out for Beth and Elmo? I'm absolutely hanging here so won't be online.


    Mogs
    .
     
  50. Critter Mom

    Critter Mom Well-Known Member

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    PS: Beth, perhaps give Elmo his little pre-nadir snack(s) if he drops fairly quickly from the higher PMPS.
     
  51. Beth 73

    Beth 73 Well-Known Member

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    Thank u, Mogs...we will be fine...Dr pat said to skip thy med tonight and give fluids so have all fronts covered.
     
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  52. Critter Mom

    Critter Mom Well-Known Member

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    Sub-q?

    .
     
  53. Beth 73

    Beth 73 Well-Known Member

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    Will do Mogs...u think testing hourly is enuf ??
     
  54. Beth 73

    Beth 73 Well-Known Member

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    Oh no just orally
     
  55. Critter Mom

    Critter Mom Well-Known Member

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    Cool. For info, sub-q's can sometimes impact BG (lowering effect).

    .
     
  56. MrWorfMen's Mom

    MrWorfMen's Mom Well-Known Member

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    I agree with you Mogs' re: dose recommendation and will be around to keep watch with Beth. Go rest up and look after the Noodler Mogs! I'm going to go "shoot" my little sugar and heat up some food. Will be back very shortly. :bighug:
     
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  57. Beth 73

    Beth 73 Well-Known Member

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    You all are the best....question on how often to monitor BG???
     
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  58. MrWorfMen's Mom

    MrWorfMen's Mom Well-Known Member

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    Beth, I'd check Elmo at your usual +1.5 and then play it by ear as far as testing and food is concerned. We have to watch his steps and listen to his directions right now because he's changed the steps a bit through no fault of his own. ;)
     
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  59. Beth 73

    Beth 73 Well-Known Member

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    He be dancing funky right now:rolleyes:.....that you, Kris and Mogs have done this dance for so long impresses and amazes me. You r women of steel !!!
     
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  60. Beth 73

    Beth 73 Well-Known Member

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    And thank u for Elmo sitting with me:bighug::bighug::bighug:....I'm praying and believing it will be a short night...glad Mogs could go rest because of you and Kris :bighug:
     
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  61. Beth 73

    Beth 73 Well-Known Member

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    Linda, could u give me some steering advice to stop him from bouncing??? Going to test at +1....what number should I respond to with 1 t low carb food ???
     
  62. Beth 73

    Beth 73 Well-Known Member

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    We need him to come down slow, correct ???
     
  63. Beth 73

    Beth 73 Well-Known Member

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    Guess I'm curious as to good downward movement numbers ....what would be best case scenario and how to achieve....I'm trying to lead in this dance, aren't I ?:rolleyes:
     
  64. MrWorfMen's Mom

    MrWorfMen's Mom Well-Known Member

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    Ideally, yes but until you switch over to Lantus, the definition of slow is a little more warped and unpredictable.

    Oh Beth! You don't seriously think you get to lead do you? Elmo is a CAT. Dogs have owners, CATs have slaves. You are Elmo's slave and you do HIS beckoning and he doesn't have to give you clues as to what his beckonings might be. He's leading this dance and you are following! Only when he trips on his own feet do you get to lead him back to a respectable position! :woot:
     
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  65. Beth 73

    Beth 73 Well-Known Member

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    So what would be a good + 1. +1.5 number ? And at what early number would I need to steer? Getting ready to get +1 , just for grins
     
  66. Beth 73

    Beth 73 Well-Known Member

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    +1......135.... steer???
     
  67. Critter Mom

    Critter Mom Well-Known Member

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    Big mistake. HUGE!

    I have to go shopping now ...


    ;)
    .
     
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  68. Critter Mom

    Critter Mom Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I have taken my sleep meds.
     
  69. Beth 73

    Beth 73 Well-Known Member

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    Mogs, take care of your self !!!!!!
     
  70. MrWorfMen's Mom

    MrWorfMen's Mom Well-Known Member

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    What! The little scamp has dropped 100 points already?!?! WOW! Ok yes I would say perhaps a little steering might be good but just LC and just a tiny bit.
     
  71. Critter Mom

    Critter Mom Well-Known Member

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    Just waiting for the dose to kick in. (Fnar, fnar...) :rolleyes:
     
  72. Beth 73

    Beth 73 Well-Known Member

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    As long as u r here at our Elmo watch party, should I steer at +1 135....100!point drop in one hour :woot::woot::woot::woot:
     
  73. Beth 73

    Beth 73 Well-Known Member

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    What's a tiny bit ???
     
  74. MrWorfMen's Mom

    MrWorfMen's Mom Well-Known Member

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    Check again in 30 minutes and we'll see what he's got up his sleeve tonight!:)
     
  75. MrWorfMen's Mom

    MrWorfMen's Mom Well-Known Member

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    A tsp or so.
     
  76. Beth 73

    Beth 73 Well-Known Member

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    No steer now ??
     
  77. Critter Mom

    Critter Mom Well-Known Member

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    Now you see why I really don't like the idea of sliding scale dosing for Vetsulin. It can really pull down unexpectedly high preshots.


    Mogs
    .
     
  78. Beth 73

    Beth 73 Well-Known Member

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    Oh oh...messages crossed... got it tsp low carb
     
  79. Critter Mom

    Critter Mom Well-Known Member

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    After a drop like that I'd be inclined to give 2 tsps of grub (LC).
     
  80. Beth 73

    Beth 73 Well-Known Member

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    BUT, you are currently under the influence of sleepy time meds , sooooo;):eek::rolleyes::woot:
     
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  81. Beth 73

    Beth 73 Well-Known Member

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    Ok, vetsulin is officially #~%€}#%. !!!!!
     
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  82. Beth 73

    Beth 73 Well-Known Member

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    Seriously, I am learning so much tonight....thanks once again to the Kitty Cavalry :bighug::bighug::bighug::bighug:
     
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  83. Beth 73

    Beth 73 Well-Known Member

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    Checking again at +1.5 in about 10 minutes
     
  84. Beth 73

    Beth 73 Well-Known Member

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    +1.5.....132......steer ? One tsp LC ???? Test again in 30 minutes at +2 ????
     
  85. Beth 73

    Beth 73 Well-Known Member

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    Gave one teaspoon at +1.5.....test again at +2?????
     
  86. MrWorfMen's Mom

    MrWorfMen's Mom Well-Known Member

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    Yes m'am! Sorry was off on another thread for a couple of minutes.
     
  87. Beth 73

    Beth 73 Well-Known Member

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    No biggie...u all have taught me well :)......testing at + 2 in about 10 minutes..;)
     
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  88. MrWorfMen's Mom

    MrWorfMen's Mom Well-Known Member

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    Ok. I'm waiting with my fingers crossed that he's slowed down! ;)
     
  89. Beth 73

    Beth 73 Well-Known Member

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    I heartily agree....and u r so right about cats....takes great self confidence to be their " slaves"....dogs smile, dogs wag...then there's Garfield ;)
     
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  90. Beth 73

    Beth 73 Well-Known Member

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    +2...133....to steer or not to steer, that is the question ???
     
  91. Beth 73

    Beth 73 Well-Known Member

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    And test again at +2.5 ????
     
  92. MrWorfMen's Mom

    MrWorfMen's Mom Well-Known Member

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    Did you give him 1 or 2 tsps. at +1? I know you gave him 1tsp at +1.5. I'd test him again at +2.5 but hold off on feeding again just now. Let's see if he'll surf for us.
     
  93. Beth 73

    Beth 73 Well-Known Member

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    I gave 1t at +1and 1 t at +1.5
     
  94. Beth 73

    Beth 73 Well-Known Member

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    So don't test at + 2 ???
     
  95. MrWorfMen's Mom

    MrWorfMen's Mom Well-Known Member

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    Ok, 1 tsp. seems to be holding him for now so let's skip a snack right now and test again at +2.

    OHOH! I see I made a boo boo up there. I meant +2. Good catch Beth! See you got this girl!
     
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  96. Beth 73

    Beth 73 Well-Known Member

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    Mercy, if I don't write it down it floats away to Neverland...I am an obsessive note taker....even makes me batty sometimes but sure has come in handy during this Adventure with Elmo :cat:
     
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  97. MrWorfMen's Mom

    MrWorfMen's Mom Well-Known Member

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    Hold on, this time stuff drives me crazy. He was 234 at PMPS, 135 at +1, 132 at +1.5 and 133 at +2 so he's surfing for now. Test him at +2.5 and then if he's still surfing, give him another little snack and leave him until +3.5 unless he shows any signs of anything unusual.
     
  98. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Sorry ladies. Had to be away from my computer for a while. Is everything under control?
     
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  99. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    I can only read these numbers if they're in a vertical column ...
     
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  100. MrWorfMen's Mom

    MrWorfMen's Mom Well-Known Member

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    Yes Kris everything is under control except I think I just confused Beth about timing but I think we're good now.

    Just to summarize,
    PMPS 234
    +1 - 135
    +1.5 - 132
    +2 - 133

    She's going to test him again at +2.5 and see if he's still surfing. If so, I suggested she give him another tsp. and retest again at +3.5. Hopefully by then we'll know we warded off that major drop he threw at +1 tonight.
     
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