Freya's ProZinc Saga, Vol. II

Discussion in 'Prozinc / PZI' started by Blair & Freya, May 22, 2017.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Blair & Freya

    Blair & Freya Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2017
  2. Rachel

    Rachel Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2013
    Give it time...she will!
     
  3. Yong & Maury GA

    Yong & Maury GA Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2017
    Patience young grasshopper upload_2017-5-22_16-43-0.png
     
    Blair & Freya likes this.
  4. Blair & Freya

    Blair & Freya Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2017
    She's back "down" to her usual PMPS range when there hasn't been any activity in the previous cycle. I'm hoping maybe this will mean some nicer numbers rather than the flat cycle this type of PS usually precedes. I'll get up to check her sometime during mid-cycle tonight.
     
    Yong & Maury GA likes this.
  5. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2015
    Depending on today's cycle, it looks like it might be time for another increase whenever you're ready.

    If you scroll back through your data, the beginning PS's were red, then solidly pink, now yellow and pink....she is making progress. It's slow, but headed in the right direction.
     
  6. Blair & Freya

    Blair & Freya Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2017
    She did have another fully yellow cycle today, argh. It seems like the yellow pre-shots happen when nothing is happening in the cycle. I'd guess maybe her "baseline" is in the high yellows these days?

    Do you think I should go ahead and try 3.75u when I can?

    Also, she's under 10 lbs. For future reference, if she keeps resisting and requiring increases, at what dose do I get her checked out for some sort of condition? I thought I'd seen 6u as the "cutoff" number somewhere, but others say it can be less. I just thought I should ask as she's approaching 4u here, and most cats I've noticed seem to be on sub-4u unless there's a comorbid thing going on. I'm not trying to imply that's what I think is the case here, but just to remember for my own reference.
     
  7. Yong & Maury GA

    Yong & Maury GA Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2017
    I'm thinking you are OK to try 3.75U tonight if she's similar PS numbers. I believe I read 6.0U was the time to ask about something else but it's so weird that when she started on 2.5U she was getting very nice numbers :bookworm:. Which makes me curious to try a lower dose too.
     
  8. Blair & Freya

    Blair & Freya Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2017
    Yeah it's very bizarre to me, and I had the same thought. But then when she was on 2.5u a second time recently, it didn't work. :confused:
     
  9. Blair & Freya

    Blair & Freya Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2017
    I keep coming back to this. It's always been interesting to me...

    After being off insulin for 24 hours for her switch, her pre-shots were significantly lower, especially when you look and that bad red before. And ALL those pinks. Then she responded almost perfectly to that 2.5u for like, four cycles. Then the dose changed.

    But after the dose changes, and when she was on 2.5u again recently, the results weren't the same. She resisted the hell out of it, and we went about two full weeks of almost straight yellow.

    Is there a chance I missed something and should start her over? It just seems so odd and I've never been able to shake the idea that I screwed up. What might this be? Could she actually be getting too much insulin? I don't know what that would look like, but I've always heard too much can look like too little.

    Anyway, those are just my possibly weird thoughts.
     
  10. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2015
    Too much can look like too little for a couple of cycles, but not for a couple of weeks. If it was too much, she would be hitting occasional hypos that would tip us off that it was too much. Also, the downward shifting pre-shots look to me like you're going the right direction -- but still have a little ways to go.

    A lot of kitties get into higher doses and then break through and start coming down -- or end up getting frustrated and switching to Lantus.

    I don't think you've screwed up at all. You're doing a really great job. Just keep pressing forward with the increases. She seems to have a pattern of getting a perfectly responsive cycle, and then settling into the flats again. I've seen that on a number of spreadsheets and the owners just kept increasing until they finally hit a dose where the kitty could have more frequent responsive cycles. Hang in there!
     
  11. Yong & Maury GA

    Yong & Maury GA Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2017
    Djamila is our spreadsheet enthusiast =)
     
    Kris & Teasel likes this.
  12. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2015
    Lol...Yes, I'm loads of fun at parties:

    -Do you have any hobbies?
    -Why yes! I study the spreadsheets of diabetic cats and look for patterns!
    -zzzzzzz
     
  13. Blair & Freya

    Blair & Freya Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2017
    Hahah.

    Well, that's good to know. It's just perplexing.

    I felt too tired to start her on 3.75u last night and monitor, so she got it this morning instead, following a red pre-shot. I tested her last night and she was still yellow at +5 with barely any difference from her PMPS, so that red can't even be attributed to a bounce. :mad: Maybe something will happen today.
     
    Yong & Maury GA and Djamila like this.
  14. Rachel

    Rachel Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2013
    Let's hope so!
     
  15. Blair & Freya

    Blair & Freya Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2017
    Well, so much for the hopes for the AM cycle. Maybe the PM... :blackeye:
     
  16. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2015
    Yes and no. The numbers are still too high, but the drop was about 50% which is perfect. Hopefully this afternoon you'll get a cycle where he isn't starting from quite so high up!
     
  17. Blair & Freya

    Blair & Freya Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2017
    No such luck really. :( Another red AMPS, and she only got as low as 198 (11) last night. The reds coming back concerns me.

    If this continues today, should I bump her up to 4u tomorrow?

    The last time this happened, she ended up needing a full unit more for any results, however brief.
     
  18. Rachel

    Rachel Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2013
    I think you could bump up to 4. She MIGHT need more than that, but I think you want to stick with those smaller increases. I know it seems frustrating, but you;ll get there! She's definitely responding to the insulin, not sticking in the highest numbers all cycle, and that's important too. :)
     
  19. Blair & Freya

    Blair & Freya Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2017
    Oh yeah, I definitely didn't mean for it to sound like I wanted to give her a huge increase all at once -- more that since it seems probable that she'll need even more than 4u, I don't want to keep her on ineffective doses for longer than necessary. I hate thinking of organ damage and other such things that can happen. :(
     
  20. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2015
    I agree about not waiting too long on the increases right now. I would just keep going up every 3-6 cycles until she either starts bouncing around (then slow down), or starts hitting some better numbers.
     
    Blair & Freya likes this.
  21. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2016
    Good advice!
     
    Blair & Freya likes this.
  22. Blair & Freya

    Blair & Freya Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2017
    She got 3.75u tonight and had a PMPS of 247 (13.7). After the red AMPSs the past two days, this was a good change. I got out of bed to check her before her +4 meal, and she was at 122 (6.8). So based on the way she sometimes continues to drop a good bit over the next few hours, I've moved out to the couch where I can keep an eye on her and will test her again in about half an hour. I'm hoping she gets some good numbers tonight. :nailbiting: This potentially complicates whether or not to increase. Guess we'll see soon.
     
    Rachel, Becky Jo and Yong & Maury GA like this.
  23. Blair & Freya

    Blair & Freya Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2017
    I tested her every hour last night until she started to come back up. She had a good run of greens, and I stalled her AMPS this morning since it was 180 (10) at first. She was 257 (14.3) when I tested again after twenty minutes. She was pretty pissed about having to wait for her food. I wish she hadn't risen quite that much during the stall, but then I look at last night and how she started only slightly lower than that and got into some ideal greens. So I guess it's for the best rather than shooting her at 180.

    I really hope this holds. And if she bounces, I hope it's brief like it was when she first started ProZinc. I don't know what to do if this pattern holds up where she has a good cycle, then goes up to almost two weeks with no results, where at first it looks like it could be a bounce before it turns out to be resistance. :banghead:

    Edit: Corrected "PMPS" to "AMPS" (I'm tired okay)
     
    Yong & Maury GA and Djamila like this.
  24. Rachel

    Rachel Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2013
    Wow!!! Look at those greens last night!!! :D:D:D:D
     
  25. Blair & Freya

    Blair & Freya Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2017
    Yeah, I was happy to see those, although I'd have also liked to sleep hahah. But like I said in my post two seconds before yours ;), I just hope this actually holds a decent pattern rather than the "respond for one cycle followed by several unresponsive days." It's hard, because when she gets a cycle like that, I can't feel safe increasing, but then she'll go so long with no response. It's so weird.
     
    Becky Jo likes this.
  26. Rachel

    Rachel Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2013
    Let's hope that doesn't happen! That's a classic sign of bouncing, so you may see it, but I'm keeping my fingers crossed for you. Either way, remember that any time she spends in blues and greens is good as those are healing numbers, allowing her pancreas some resting and healing time.
     
  27. Blair & Freya

    Blair & Freya Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2017
    [​IMG]

    Someone was pretty interested in my taking inventory of her food just now. Note the swishy tail action. Just before this, she had been plopped in the empty space in the cabinet by the food. :rolleyes:
     
  28. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2016
    This is a typical Teasel pattern, especially when he's at a slightly too low dose. He did it on ProZinc and he still does it on Lantus. Patience Pants are your friend. ;)
     
    Blair & Freya likes this.
  29. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2015
    Oh my goodness, she is adorable! Sam does the swishy tail/stare at the cupboard thing too. But Freya is prettier!
     
    Becky Jo and Blair & Freya like this.
  30. Blair & Freya

    Blair & Freya Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2017
    It is so frustrating. Why can't they be easy? I look at a lot of other spreadsheets and am like... how???

    I don't know, his little white nose is pretty cute. And I see he likes hanging out in sinks like Freya too. Too bad she hates other cats and punches them in the face or I'd suggest a sink date, hahah. That was what actually made her excessive thirst hard to recognise for a while prior to diagnosis. She's always been kind of water obsessed and a sink lurker.
     
    Yong & Maury GA and Becky Jo like this.
  31. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2016
    I know what you mean about some other spreadsheets. A few dose tweaks and kitty is regulated. I've been at this almost a year and a half with Teasel and have had to accept that he's very tricky. Acceptance brings peace of mind ... sounds trite or "woo woo" but it's true.
     
    Blair & Freya likes this.
  32. Blair & Freya

    Blair & Freya Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2017
    It's encouraging to see another "tricky" cat who seems to be otherwise healthy. The chance of DKA is what scares me. I see Teasel had a bout of that. What were the circumstances surrounding his DKA, and how did that go?

    I need to get more ketone strips and test more regularly.
     
  33. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2016
    Teasel's bout of DKA came after 2 months on Lantus just after his diagnosis in January 2016. I was following the vet's instructions - 1 u twice a day, do a curve after a week, let her assess results and give dosing instructions. Teasel bounced like crazy the first couple of weeks (20+ mmol/L down to 3+ mmol/L and back up again) so his dose was tweaked up to 1.5 u. That was too much at that point in time. It went back down to 1 u and the weekly curves continued but he stopped responding - ie., high and flat all the time. The vet wanted to try an insulin restart so told me to stop insulin for 48 hours. After 24 hours he was in DKA. He spent three very $$$ days in the ER ICU but recovered. It was several weeks before he was back to "normal".

    Upshot of all that: Teasel was switched to ProZinc and I continued doing weekly curves for months with no success. Finally, last August 2016 I came here to FDMB and started a SS. I quickly discovered his crazy bouncing patterns and learned why a weekly curve was useless because it captured bounce days most of the time. I worked at finding a good ProZinc dose with only moderate success. I kept my vet in the loop about what I was doing. This past February I felt I had enough experience and knowledge of Teasel's patterns that I thought it was worth trying Lantus again. I decided to make the switch on my own because I can buy insulin over the counter at a pharmacy in Ontario, Canada. I told my vet after the fact. Teasel has felt better on Lantus and I see brief periods of more stability but he's still very tricky as my SS shows.
     
  34. Blair & Freya

    Blair & Freya Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2017
    Poor Teasel. That must have been so scary. I have a feeling Freya would've been in the same situation if we'd kept doing only what the vet said. :( They told us the same, infrequent curves (at the office -- home testing was never mentioned) and fructosamine tests, with dosing increased by too much at a time. Ugh.

    Looks like Freya is on her high flats again. How long should I allow for this before increasing? This will be her third cycle after her low one. Prior to that low PM cycle on the 25th, more than six cycles had passed before she hit those greens, so that didn't appear to be 100% a bounce from the previous green on the 20th. That was why I was planning to increase her, then she all of a sudden had those greens. This is confusing. And the pinks are creeping back. I was so hopeful when she had that nice PMPS last night, too. :confused:
     
  35. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2015
    I am curious where she went after the +2 last night though. I really wish they would perfect a continuous glucose monitor for cats! It would make all of this so much easier!

    I think you can move up whenever you're ready. It does look like she's hinting at being a bit bouncy though, which maybe, just maybe means that we're getting closer to having some more responsive cycles. I might just be foolishly optimistic this morning though since the sun is shining again.
     
    Blair & Freya likes this.
  36. Blair & Freya

    Blair & Freya Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2017
    I guess I looked at other times she's been pink at that time (and not a particularly low pink either) and compared it to how much she tends to drop afterwards and figured she probably stayed yellow last night. I could be wrong but blues seemed pretty unlikely, and judging by past cycles, it looks like most blues don't cause her to bounce so bad. There have been a lot of times where she's had pretty regular and consecutive blues, but the greens seem to wreak some serious havoc. o_O Or that's how it looks to me anyway.
     
  37. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2015
    Last night and 5/17 are virtually identical, but we don't have later data on either of them (that's okay, by the way, I was just curious - I agree with you that blues/greens were probably unlikely). On the days that she's gone lower at nadir, we don't have +2 data to compare with it.

    Here's a thought: Is she hungry at the +4 feeding? If not, I wonder if you could bump it later in the cycle, like maybe feed her at +6 instead, and see if the reason she's staying so high mid-cycle is the snack? I'm all for multiple feedings, but it looks like she stays pretty high after the PS numbers and doesn't onset until around +3 or nearly +4 anyway, and gets another bump right around that same time from the snack? I would totally understand if that isn't a viable option at this point given her love affair with the timed feeder and her garbage scrounging and all.
     
    Blair & Freya likes this.
  38. Blair & Freya

    Blair & Freya Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2017
    Oh, she's definitely hungry! She plops by the feeder from the PS feeding to +4 waiting for it. I don't want to give her more calories though since she seems to be at a good weight now and maintaining it. She's a glutton to start with, so the diabetes exacerbates it. I am not sure what her garbage fascination has been lately!

    I can try moving it to +6. I guess I assumed the food wasn't making that much a difference since it seems like she often continues to drop a good amount even after the meal. But I can see if that helps for sure. Another possibility is that maybe it would help if I gave her less food at the pre-shot? That would require a third meal at some point in each cycle, maybe with a little more at the two post-shot meals to make up the difference, but to balance it all out more so she's not getting such a big portion at the beginning. Just a thought. What would folks suggest?
     
  39. Yong & Maury GA

    Yong & Maury GA Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2017
    Ok Blair, curiosity may be getting a little better of me but can you list the brands/flavours of food you are feeding Ms. Freya? :):bookworm::bookworm:
     
  40. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2015
    Please don't make her too unhappy if you do try to change the snack time. Sam being hungry is one of my weaknesses. I really can't stand it. If he cries it just breaks my heart (I'm such a pushover)!!! So I would never want someone else's kitty to be hungry just for curiosity!
     
  41. Blair & Freya

    Blair & Freya Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2017
    I think right now she gets:
    • Smilla Poultry with Poultry Hearts
    • Smilla Poultry with Fish
    • MAC's Duck, Turkey & Chicken
    • MAC's Salmon & Chicken
    • MAC's Turkey & Blueberry
    I also have UK Whiskas 7+ Poultry Selection in Jelly and UK Whiskas 7+ Fish Selection in Jelly (both pouch types) on hand. That's what she was eating when I was still trialling her on other things. It's been quite a while now since she's had it, but there's still some in her cabinet. I have a feeling I encountered a bad pouch of it once, so have been wary.

    I had done carb calculations on all of them, and they are all quite low. Smilla's labelling isn't exactly right with things adding up to more than 100%, as the UK food lists note. However, she seems to get some good cycles on it. There also didn't appear to be any questionable ingredients when I was initially researching the food options. They all have similar daily recommended amounts too.

    She doesn't seem frantic about it like she used to and doesn't scream for it anymore. Well, she does every morning starting at half an hour before her test/food alarm goes off because she knows it's coming, :rolleyes: but other than that, she's not pushy about it. She just hangs around the feeder and looks pretty relaxed usually. I think maybe she smelled her empty food cans in the garbage lately?! It might help if I rinse them out thoroughly first.
     
    Djamila and Yong & Maury GA like this.
  42. Blair & Freya

    Blair & Freya Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2017
    I decided to wait until tomorrow to increase her dose if needed since I desperately need sleep and should be around and awake to watch her in the AM. I can also try changing her feeding times around and see if spreading out the portions might help.

    Do you guys think it would be alright to feed her at, say... shot time, +4, and +8, to space it out pretty evenly? Or at what hours would you suggest? In any case, a third meal would make the pre-shot feeding a significantly smaller portion, so maybe she wouldn't stay so high for so long at the start of the cycle.

    And should I try the meal change prior to increasing to see if that will impact things, or do both at the same time? Just brainstorming here to eliminate as many potential complications as possible.
     
  43. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2015
    Usually one change at a time. Looking at your data, I could argue either way: dose first or food first. So I think go with whichever works best for your schedule.
     
    Yong & Maury GA likes this.
  44. Rachel

    Rachel Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2013
    I agree. Once change at a time means that you can hopefully isolate what causes changes so you can use that info.
     
    Yong & Maury GA likes this.
  45. Yong & Maury GA

    Yong & Maury GA Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2017
  46. Blair & Freya

    Blair & Freya Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2017
    Alright, she's on six meals as of now and getting about 60% of what she used to at the first feeding, with the difference moved to the third feeding. That might help! My reasoning was maybe it made sense to adjust the food first, as that's pretty easily and quickly done. Food stuff tends to show a pretty immediate effect with her, which I guess is good in a situation like this? The dosing is trickier, but after a couple cycles to see the effects of the meal change, I can just go ahead and increase if she needs it -- which I expect she will.

    I do think this AMPS may be a slight bounce from last night. I fell asleep, but I was pretty certain she'd hit blue for at least a little while after the last test of the night being a low yellow. Not 100% though.
     
  47. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2016
    More yellow preshots = progress, Blair. Just keep up the slow increases as needed. Bouncy, sticky cats (those who bounce to higher numbers and get stuck there) can't stay too long at an ineffective dose. You have to keep nudging them along. Teasel was/is exactly like this. A little nudge will create some downward momentum but if the dose is still a little lower than ideal they get stuck high and flat. Another nudge is needed then. Rinse and repeat. Patience in enormous doses is essential. :)
     
  48. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2015
    Well, look at that +2! That's the biggest +2 drop you've had. Might be onto something? Might just be a coincidence?
     
  49. Blair & Freya

    Blair & Freya Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2017
    The good news is that it looks like the meal change may be improving the situation already. I was cautiously optimistic at +2 but wanted to wait to comment until +4, which I just took. We have a blue! Barely, but hey. At this point I'll take what I can get. It's way better than yesterday and some of the other days. Maybe this combined with an increase will get her somewhere. We'll see what happens in the PM, but I somehow doubt it's completely coincidence. She did eat a fair bit less earlier.
     
    Kris & Teasel likes this.
  50. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2015
    Nice! Keep it up, Freya! Or should I say, down? :)
     
    Yong & Maury GA likes this.
  51. Rachel

    Rachel Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2013
    All right Freya!!! That blue is beautiful!
     
  52. Blair & Freya

    Blair & Freya Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2017
    Ugh, yellow at +6. :stop: I think that's more to do with her high flats than the type of food though, since she went from blue at +3 to green at +6 on the same type/amount of food just days ago. I will bump her up to 4u when I'm able.
     
  53. Rachel

    Rachel Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2013
    Hmmm, it may be that her nadir is just early today too. That does happen...I'd give the new feeding schedule a day or 2 and then bump up I think.
     
  54. Blair & Freya

    Blair & Freya Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2017
    That's true; I've noticed it often alternates between +5 and +6 or presumably somewhere in between.

    I have things to do in town today, so unfortunately won't be able to get as many tests. However, I realised she may have actually got yesterday's AM +8 meal an hour late since my clock was off! :facepalm: So that may not be an accurate representation. :rolleyes: Also worth noting (and I've noted it on her sheet) is that she used to get her pre-shot test about 25 minutes before her shot. This was to give me time to portion out her food for the day and give her time to eat it all, since it was a bigger meal. I'm sure her BG was rising in that time, so by the time she got her shot, it could have been notably higher than the PS showed, judging by what a difference a 20-minute stall can make. That could account for some of the appearance of unchanging numbers at +2 or whatever. She gets pissed if I interrupt her for a shot while she's eating and jumps all over the place as she gobbles, so that was never an option. But now that she's got less to eat, she's being tested, fed, and injected all within 15 minutes as of today. So that PS column should be closer to reality now.

    Her ProZinc vial is getting lowish. I called the vet last week since they typically need only 24-hour notice, but I guess with the bank holiday over here, the earliest they could get it in is tomorrow. Hopefully I can pick it up then. She definitely has enough left in the current vial, but this is my first one, and as it gets lower I have a hard time gauging how long what's there will last -- especially with the increases.

    Should I be cautious when starting a new vial? I don't know if the one she's been using may have lost potency or something. Not sure if there are things to look for with that. I've never actually had a vial last this long before, but it was first used on April 19th. There are no bits floating in it or anything like that.

    Edit: Oh, and thought I'd mention that since she ate at +8 last night, she was much less frantic this morning and actually let me sleep! :cat:
     
    Yong & Maury GA likes this.
  55. Blair & Freya

    Blair & Freya Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2017
    Ugh, sorry for another post, but I just remembered a random question as I was looking over foods to order as her supplies are dwindling.

    MAC's Mono Sensitive Turkey is very low carb but has carrot -- admittedly a low amount at 2%, same as the blueberry in the Turkey & Blueberry variety. I was just curious if anyone has noticed an issue with carrot in small amounts? I know carrots aren't supposed to be bad for human diabetics, but not sure about the feline ones.
     
  56. Yong & Maury GA

    Yong & Maury GA Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2017
    When I got my new vial, I had read many times to give slightly reduced dose, so for the first dose I slightly reduced and after not seeing noticeable difference resumed the previous dose next shot.

    :bookworm: Carrots and some other fruits and vegetables in small amounts, like they put in some foods, are listed as OK and non-toxic for kitties. But they're kind of in there for filler, and a little Vitamin A, since they are not needed for our little fur carnivores :cat:.
     
    Blair & Freya likes this.
  57. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2016
    I always approach a new vial cautiously even though nothing scary has happened. I keep the same dose but monitor a bit more on the day (never on an evening cycle) I start it.
     
    Blair & Freya likes this.
  58. Rachel

    Rachel Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2013
    Also if you're near the end of a bottle, you might start the new one and store the little bit left in the first one in your fridge. That way if you ever have an accident with your new bottle you have a bit to use while waiting for a new one...
     
  59. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2016
    I always do this.
     
  60. Blair & Freya

    Blair & Freya Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2017
    That all makes sense. I wouldn't have thought to save some of the old stuff. The vet I usually deal with is a small branch practice of the main practice, and they close for a few hours every afternoon. (Annoying.) I'm going to call them when they reopen today and see what the news is on her insulin order and keep everyone's advice in mind.

    She got 4u this morning, and Things Are Happening! That's the lowest +2 in ages -- a nice blue. I'll watch her closely. Plus, I'm home by myself for a few days with not much to go out for and deliveries to wait on, so my hope is that I can devote extra time to tackling this resistance.

    I ordered some more Smilla from Zooplus last night (and her Thrive treats, which she'll be pleased about). The bulk of the order was Tender Poultry with Poultry Hearts, less of Tender Poultry with Fish, and something new I wanted to try. I remember reading about a cat on here with a lot of food issues that did well on Smilla Kitten with Chicken, so I got her some cans of that to see how she does. :bookworm: The budget is really tight, especially since all at once she needs new insulin, more food, AND more syringes/needles. :facepalm: Smilla is by far the cheapest low-carb option over here, even cheaper than the sugary supermarket stuff, so the more of that she can eat while still getting some variety, the better.

    She really is behaving better since getting the six feedings, even though she's not getting anything extra to eat. She doesn't obsess over the feeder quite as badly and doesn't harass me in the mornings, sleeping at the foot of the bed rather than slowly creeping up to yell in my face. I hope it works for her BG because it sure seems to keep her more satisfied. If I have to shift the times around in the end, I'll try that, but I think she'll be happier with this arrangement if it can be managed.
     
  61. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2015
    That's great news! Lower BG and a happier kitty are both so good to hear!
     
  62. Yong & Maury GA

    Yong & Maury GA Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2017
    Yay don't look at US number then! :p
    Happy Freya = Happy Blair!
     
  63. Blair & Freya

    Blair & Freya Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2017
    Hahah yeah it's funny how that particular number is blue on one and yellow on the other. It's happened a few times before too.
     
  64. Rachel

    Rachel Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2013
    Happy kitties make for happy beans! I think it's great that the 6 feedings are working for her. :)
     
  65. Blair & Freya

    Blair & Freya Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2017
    Well, as it turns out, this is her third cycle with no notable response to 4u. I'm guessing it's okay if I go ahead and increase her at the next cycle? I worry the longer she stays at these numbers, the harder it'll be to break this.
     
  66. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2015
    Onward and upward! If you scroll down your spreadsheet though, you can see that the PS numbers are continuing to come down. Slowly, but still, every little bit helps. So hang in there!
     
    Yong & Maury GA likes this.
  67. Blair & Freya

    Blair & Freya Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2017
    I guess I'd attributed the lower pre-shots mostly to the fact that she's not getting low enough to even bounce from anything, so she's staying around the same level all day. It looks like the higher pre-shots tend to come when the insulin is actually having an effect. Do you think I'm off base on that? It's so hard to tell if anything is doing, well, anything. o_O

    I'll pick up her new vial this afternoon. Still no word on my Zooplus order yet, which is odd and a little concerning. I don't know what she'll eat if I run out of her usual. I guess the answer to that is Whiskas and the other slightly higher-carb foods, but ugh...
     
  68. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2016
    Her SS reminds me of Teasel's. Take heart - you'll get there! She might never be "easy" (my guy sure isn't!) but if she looks and feels good take comfort in that. She *might* settle down a bit when her dose is a tad higher but the the only safe way there is what you're doing.
     
    Blair & Freya likes this.
  69. Blair & Freya

    Blair & Freya Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2017
    Thanks. I've noticed her little legs trembling more in the past few days, and she hasn't been jumping up to her usual spots for a while. :( But otherwise she seems mostly okay. What's the highest dose Teasel has been on?

    This AM will be her second cycle on 4.25u. I'm disappointed with how the first cycle went. If she doesn't respond after a third, I'll move her on up to 4.5u. The higher it goes, the more I think I may have to take her in to get things tested or checked out eventually if she hits 6u, which seems more and more likely. Sigh. For most cats that would seem a large leap to assume, I know, but she can easily plow through a full unit increase (in small increments of course) with no change. I hope it's not certain conditions, the names of which I won't speak so as not to invoke them. :stop:

    At least I got an e-mail from Zooplus this morning, saying her food is finally on the way and should arrive tomorrow or Saturday. So that's one less thing to worry about.
     
  70. Rachel

    Rachel Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2013
    We've seen that lots of times where kitties can just go up and up and suddenly they break through! And she's actually not in bad numbers...yellows are nice, we just want it lower!

    There are high dose kitties, but I think for now, just focus on those increases. If she hits that 6 mark, you can look into it and we can get some folks who have high dose kitties to chime in. But for now, I wouldn't worry about it.
     
  71. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2016
    The highest dose Teasel had was 3.6 u of ProZinc and that was just before I joined FDMB. He dropped too low on that - then. Today I just boosted his Lantus dose to 3.5 u for the first time. I expect it'll give him a little jolt and then he'll settle back into bouncing. Que sera, sera.
     
    Blair & Freya likes this.
  72. Yong & Maury GA

    Yong & Maury GA Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2017
    A good thing :)! Was going to say "always a good thing" but thought of some causes where one less thing to worry about aren't so great o_O
     
    Blair & Freya likes this.
  73. Blair & Freya

    Blair & Freya Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2017
    Hahah that's true.

    After three blah cycles of 4.25u, she got her first 4.5u this morning. I've gotten to the point where I'm not optimistic about it working, but if it does, I'll be pleasantly surprised. Her pre-shot was a bit lower today than it has been lately though, so I guess that's good. I'm glad she rarely gets above 300 (16.7) when the insulin isn't really active. She does when bouncing, but if the insulin's going to be nearly ineffective, I'd rather have her lingering in yellows than pinks.
     
    Yong & Maury GA and Rachel like this.
  74. Rachel

    Rachel Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2013
    Lower preshot is good! I know it's tough, but hang in there. Remember that these kitties are rarely predictable...and that this is a marathon not a sprint!

    How does Freya seem other than the SS? Remember, she is more than just a number! Does she SEEM okay?
     
  75. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2015
    Maybe Freya is going to flat-cycle her way all the way down to the blues and greens? You're sure you're giving her prozinc, and not lantus, right? ;)o_O
     
    Rachel and Kris & Teasel like this.
  76. Blair & Freya

    Blair & Freya Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2017
    Well, she seems mostly okay, but there are things that tell me she's not feeling completely herself. She's been sitting in my lap and purring a lot lately, but she also doesn't want to play at all or jump too high, and her legs tremble. :( Appearance-wise she looks better than she once did, though.

    Ugh, she had a pink at her PM +4 just now. I don't know what in the world is going on here. I'd wager she didn't get lower than maybe 8 (144) in today's AM cycle, so I doubt this even qualifies as a bounce. In the morning, it'll be her third time at 4.5u, so I have a feeling we'll be on 4.75u by tomorrow night. I don't like where this seems to be headed.
     
  77. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2015
    Blair, you're really doing a good job of managing her, and it's so good to hear that you're seeing some improvement in appearance and affection. Those are important indicators. Sick cats tend to hide, so sitting on your lap is really good. I'm so sorry to see the doses creeping up there. Don't worry too much about the pink today - it's just one cycle, but I do understand your concern about how high the dose is getting. All you can really do is just keep giving her what she needs for now. Are you in contact with a vet? Is your vet good about all of this, or not so much?
     
    Bobbie And Bubba likes this.
  78. Blair & Freya

    Blair & Freya Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2017
    Thanks. And no, I haven't actually contacted the vet at all except to get her insulin. I don't have much confidence in their dosing advice, particularly since one of the vets at the practice was unsupportive of frequent home testing. I am wondering what they'll say or do if I bring her in and say I want her examined/tested to see why her insulin needs are high (if it gets to that point). I have a feeling they'll either be dismissive or not know enough about anything to be helpful. My vet options are limited, though; this is why I've just been dosing her myself. It adds an extra layer of frustration not having a vet you're super confident in. :nailbiting:

    Edit: Oh, another reason I stopped bothering with the vet was they are understaffed and slammed all the time and began sounding irritated with me when I called. So that was a fun thing.
     
  79. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2015
    Oh vets! Even here with more vets than you can imagine (I live in a VERY pet friendly city!) it can be hard to find someone who knows anything about the complexities of FD. The reason I was asking is that if Freya does need to be tested at some point, it might take a little looking to find a vet who can help you.

    Have you looked at the forum on here for high dose kitties? I really do think it's too early to call it that with Freya anyway - I've certainly seen spreadhsheets with kitties in these dose ranges who did come back down eventually. I'm just one of those nerdy types who likes to study before I need to know something. ;)o_O:rolleyes:
     
  80. Blair & Freya

    Blair & Freya Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2017
    I have read some yes, but as her dose continues to increase, I may look into things more closely. I recall reading a few things that made me wonder a little, but I'll hold off on assuming anything just yet.

    For the sake of experimentation, I gave her 4.5u from a new vial this AM. There's still insulin left in the old vial, so if there's not a marked difference in potency between the two, I'll probably use up some more of the old stuff before switching back. But I just want to eliminate the chance that the insulin is the cause, and wanted to do it before hitting 5u. Will keep watch on her today for sure. I'm stuck waiting around the flat for a Zooplus delivery anyway. :rolleyes: I hope it turns out to be okay to give her that dose...
     
  81. Blair & Freya

    Blair & Freya Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2017
    Oh, and she just had to annoy me by giving a barely-pink pre-shot this morning. It was ALMOST a yellow. :arghh:
     
  82. Blair & Freya

    Blair & Freya Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2017
    Sorry for a third post, but I realised I hadn't posted any pictures in a while. I got up to see what she was doing just a bit ago and found her on the bed in a food coma, with food on her nose yet again. I'm curious how long she'll go this time without noticing. :p She's a mess.

    [​IMG]

    And here are a few others from the past week or two. This pose is common:

    [​IMG]

    Annnd, lying on my lap yesterday while I played an MMO:

    [​IMG]

    :cat:
     
    Becky Jo and Yong & Maury GA like this.
  83. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2016
    She's lovely! Her eyes are mesmerizing. :) Teasel's brother often has a grain or two of clumping litter on his nose.
     
  84. Blair & Freya

    Blair & Freya Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2017
    Hahah. It looked like two little bits of fat from her food that had solidified in the fridge. One was still there an hour later, but by her +2 test both were gone. :p At least her AM +2 was lower than her AMPS today. :rolleyes: It's something I guess.
     
  85. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2016
    Keep doing what you're doing. Sometimes we worry that if a dose gets high-ish we're doing something wrong but a kitty needs the insulin he/she needs. That 6 u boundary where you start wondering about other conditions is just a guideline. @Bobbie And Bubba had to get up to 5.25 u to jumpstart Bubba.
     
  86. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2015
    Lol...you could have done a second test to see if the meter would read it a smidge lower ;)
     
    Blair & Freya likes this.
  87. Bobbie And Bubba

    Bobbie And Bubba Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2015
    Hi Blair! Yep, Bubba got all the way to 5.25 until he started coming down. That was on Lantus not ProZinc just to clarify.

    I like how you have steadily upped the dose every six cycles rather than doing a sliding scale. To me, it seems like more control and it's easier to see what is working.

    I noticed you changed you feeding schedule to 6 X day. Bubba gets fed 6 times /day also and it did give him better control with his numbers while he was on insulin. Just something to observe, when feeding some kitties after nadir (and it looks like hers is at +6), the food can act like brakes on the insulin and hike them up some. It's just something to be aware of and experiment with. If you think that is happening with her, you could try getting her 6 meals in before the nadir in each cycle to see if that makes a difference.
     
  88. Yong & Maury GA

    Yong & Maury GA Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2017
    And let's add another layer when you clash with them :rolleyes:.

    On a side note, what MMO were you playing and what medium? :)
     
  89. Blair & Freya

    Blair & Freya Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2017
    I've been upping them every three lately, when it's apparent it's just not doing anything at all. Looking through past trends, it seems like if she lingers too long in those flat yellows, she just ends up needing more and more. I had considered that about the post-nadir feeding and plan to experiment with it if necessary once it looks like the insulin is actually doing something, especially at +5 to +6. Part of the problem seemed to be that she was eating too much at the beginning of the day, so she wasn't starting to come down until later.

    Thanks for chiming in, and glad to hear your guy is OTJ! :cat:

    Yeah, I've already had a bit of a clash with the one who advises me against home testing. Ugh.

    As for the MMO, I've played a number (always on PC), but it's been FFXIV lately. I was leveling my miner while she hung out with me, hahah.
     
    Bobbie And Bubba likes this.
  90. Yong & Maury GA

    Yong & Maury GA Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2017
    OMG I played that too :woot:. Haven't played for over 6 months though. Are you Miqo'te? I am:p
     
    Blair & Freya likes this.
  91. Blair & Freya

    Blair & Freya Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2017
    Oh man. I play on Balmung right now. That server is a bit crazy but I like the high population. I've played a lot on and off, and was trying to catch up for the expansion after having taken a break. This character began as an alt and somehow became my main, so a lot of stuff isn't unlocked yet. Started as Highlander, switched to Keeper of the Moon (black cat obviously), now back to Highlander to be the tall person in parties full of tiny cats. It makes me feel like Gandalf with all his little dwarves and hobbits. This was my scrappy Freya-inspired cat before the race change:

    [​IMG]

    Sometimes I miss the ears and tail for the animations, and I get tempted to try being a man-cat. Then I could be a black cat minus the OTT cutesy emotes. :cool:

    My first ever MMO was Ultima Online, which I still actually play with a group of friends despite hating the dev team. :arghh: Man that game is like two million years old at this point.
     
  92. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2016
    This is exactly what happens to Teasel. I call it "dose complacency" but it's likely the beginning of glucose toxicity (which is reversible) setting in and that makes them less responsive to insulin. In my opinion some kitties are more likely to develop it quickly than others. The remedy is careful dose increases with no lingering at an ineffective dose. You're doing the right thing.
     
    Blair & Freya likes this.
  93. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2016
    I'm an old fart so this is what this conversation looks like to me:

    Snyo me tomffe sal vvlgeicllestin salovdeslzxvu eosaolvewus! Toespleic gkeothas ihqwiuhbvf owxvhwe. :D;)
     
  94. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2015
    Me too, Kris. o_Oo_Oo_O
     
  95. Blair & Freya

    Blair & Freya Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2017
    It's looking like she might give a decent PMPS unless she suddenly shoots up. Based on your experience, do you think I should try her at a fourth dose of 4.5u, or just go ahead and increase? Today's AM shot was from the new vial.

    Hahah. Well, the first online game I played turns 20 this year, if that tells you anything. I'm not particularly young, just a loser. :cool:
     
  96. Yong & Maury GA

    Yong & Maury GA Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2017
    I'm on Coeurl on NA server ^__^ I played a lot for almost a year. Last time I played back in the fall of 2016 my ilvl of 230 became slightly insignificant :(. Got bored quickly with the grind for new scripts, they keep changing them! lol. I'm a loser with you :cool:
    Here's my WHM - Miqo'te til the end! :cat:
    upload_2017-6-3_15-55-48.png
     
    Blair & Freya likes this.
  97. Blair & Freya

    Blair & Freya Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2017
    ...wtf. PMPS of 158 (8.8). o_O I was expecting lower than usual but uh, I wasn't expecting it to be LOWER than her +8. I guess we're stalling and seeing. Not sure what to do if she doesn't come up enough. In the past I've just not injected at all, but I don't know if I'm at a point where I can give a reduced dose in these situations?

    Update: She was 194 (10.8) after a 20-minute stall, so I guess I'll go ahead and give her the 4.5u again and see if that gets her anywhere good. I have carby food on hand if it becomes necessary, but looks like she's on the rise.

    Suncat I see. She's cute! I've heard Coeurl is very friendly.
     
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2017
  98. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2015
    Lol...I typed this and then fell asleep and forgot to hit "post":

    I'm wondering if she might run a little long tonight since she hasn't moved much in the past few hours. I'd say if she stays lower, keep the dose one more cycle, but if she shoots up at the end into normal PS numbers, you could go ahead with it.
    ------------

    I think you did the right thing to stick with the dose and monitor. I'm dying to see her +2 though! It looks like soon, right?
     
    Blair & Freya likes this.
  99. Blair & Freya

    Blair & Freya Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2017
    Hahah. Yeah, it'll be a little less than half an hour from now since the stall put us slightly off schedule. I'm curious too... :nailbiting: I almost expect her to randomly shoot back into the yellows or something. She got a decent run of blues today if nothing else. She was so pissed about stalling and screamed the whole 20 minutes! Very dramatic. :rolleyes:

    Afterwards, she took a liking to the Zooplus delivery box, despite not being a box cat by nature. That's the packing strap she has her face buried in:

    [​IMG]

    She was in there purring to herself and looked so pathetic that I took pity and made her a little fort with her blanket.

    [​IMG]

    The flash made her eyes look kind of freaky, but I promise they're not usually like that. :D Maybe a box fort will make up for getting her ears stabbed like crazy today, hahah.
     
  100. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2015
    What a loved (spoiled ;)) kitty!!! I've already confessed that knowing Sam is hungry just tears at my heart. Stalling is the worst!!! So hugs to you and Freya for making it through the 20 minutes and getting a rising number! I love the little fort - and the addition of the stuffy is adorable! While you're probably right that your next test will be yellow, it could also go the other way since it was a good dose on a low number.

    I'm wondering if you should hold the dose a couple more cycles to see if that long cycle is telling us anything. It's also entirely possible that it's just a random weird cycle. Ugh -- I wish we could look ahead to see if the dose is good instead of only knowing in the past tense!
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page