Freya's ProZinc Saga

Hey there, first post, though I've been lurking a while. My cat Freya and I are in Scotland, and she was diagnosed with FD in late February, initially put on Caninsulin, but changed to ProZinc this week. I've tried to be as diligent as possible with her spreadsheet and was wondering if anyone has any thoughts on it. There's a US tab for those more familiar with those measurements. Note that she started the ProZinc on the 19th of this month.

I didn't give her any insulin for 24 hours prior to starting ProZinc. Interestingly, her AM pre-shot was lower than usual despite not having insulin. After the switch, it seems like while her numbers are overall much better, her pre-shots have been climbing up, and I'm not sure what to make of it. Or is it too soon to make anything of it? It looks to me like she could be bouncing.

I called to check in with her usual vet, who's apparently not in, and I kind of groaned because I knew it meant I'd have to deal with the other one who tells me not to check her BG. I just refuse to do that. As you can see, her numbers are still erratic, and I am just not comfortable shooting blindly and leaving it to chance. Needless to say, I got no guidance from there. No wonder that particular vet goes on about how long their other diabetic patients continue to be unregulated.

Anyway, Freya seems to be feeling much better than she did a few weeks ago, and it's encouraging to see the insulin finally lasting a bit longer for her. I think she's a lot closer to being sorted out, but there are still some issues. Any guidance would be appreciated!

 

Welcome Freya and her Mum! Still a little early on East Coast NA and it's a weekend . I'm glad you are refusing to not test . Prozinc is a longer lasting insulin than Caninsulin and we'll definitely help you with her! Don't worry about the U.S. numbers, just fill in the World tab and it automatically converts, use the mmol/L .
Love the top line of your SS! Since you're familiar with SS, one small thing that can be helpful to notice, and more obvious, add a row with merged cells indicating the switch to Prozinc, if you don't mind . If you could also add to your signature you are using human meter too . I'm so demanding, aren't I? LOL

Looking at her initial week of Prozinc, I think those are very good numbers. I think you should hold this dose for a while longer, it seems pretty ideal (although the ideal dose can change). The most likely reason for her PS numbers rising is mild bouncing. Her body is still getting used to being in the normal BG ranges that fall within 2.8 - 6.7mmol/L (50-120 mg/dl) on human meters like the one you are using.

Kris & Teasel wrote this up to help explain the bouncing phenomena:

1. BG goes low OR lower than usual OR drops too quickly.
2. Kitty's body panics and thinks there's danger (OMG! My BG is too low!).
3. Complex physiologic processes take glycogen stored in the liver (I think of it as "bounce fuel"), convert it to glucose and dump it into the bloodstream to counteract the perceived dangerously low BG.
4. These processes go into overdrive in kitties who are bounce prone and keep the BG propped up varying lengths of time (AKA bouncing).
5. Bounce prone kitty repeats this until his body learns that healthy low numbers are safe. Some kitties are slow learners.
6. Too high a dose of insulin can keep them bouncing over and over until the " bounce fuel" runs out and they crash - ie., have a hypo episode. That's why we worry so much about kitties that have had too high a starting dose prescribed by the vet and the owner isn't home testing.
7. Many vets have little/no understanding of the bouncing phenomenon.

Lastly, I will leave you with this just to be safe: http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/how-to-treat-hypos-they-can-kill-print-this-out.15887/
Feel free to ask us anything Keep doing a great job with Freya!

 

Hi Freya, and Freya's parent, and welcome! Ignoring vet advice already? You'll fit right in here!

Normally we suggest a starting dose of 1.0u, and then slowly working up, but I have to say, your curves look just about perfect on the 2.5u. The prozinc curve should look like a smile, which yours do, and you want the nadir numbers to be low blues or greens, which you have. What I've been told is that when cats are in those low blue/green numbers, their pancreas can heal. So right now, I would say to stick with this dose for awhile and keep monitoring. If the mid-cycles keep looking like this, it is likely that those pre-shot numbers will start to come down. It does take time though.

I'm curious what others will say when they get here.

You've done a great job of getting everything going with your spreadsheet and home testing. My only other question would be food. Do you know the carb content of the food you're feeding? Is it a wet food? I also see some notes that your kitty is hungry. Diabetic cats can't properly absorb their food, so they are starving. If your kitty needs to lose weight, then you do need to restrict it. However, if Freya's weight is okay, I would suggest that you give her more food. Many of us feed several small meals throughout the day which seems to help our kitties.

 

Welcome! You win the prize for most attractive spreadsheet! You've met two very good advice givers already so I won't add anything. Ask any/all questions you have.

 

@Yong --

Sure, I can add some of that info to make things clearer. And yeah, I'm from Florida myself, so pretty familiar with the more annoying aspects of time zones between here and there, hahah. (Freya actually came over here with me -- car, plane, taxi, chunnel, train, in four countries, she did it all because I didn't want her left in the cargo hold.) I do have the hypo page bookmarked to my phone, honey on hand, and some contraband food squirrelled away in case she needs it. I've been trying to get a feel for her mid-cycle levels because sometimes she'll drop so drastically out of nowhere, but so far it looks like the peak pattern is fairly predictable. I guess I'll see how bouncy she gets and reevaluate after a while.​

@Djamila --

Actually, the vet wanted her to start at 3u since she'd already been on Caninsulin. I wasn't comfortable with that, so the 2.5u was a compromise, I guess. As for the voraciousness, she had lost weight and was feeling like skin and bones before switching her food and getting her numbers down. (Edited to add: It is a low-carb wet food.) She's actually gained weight since then and is close to her ideal weight, but she needs to get her muscle back again. I stopped feeding her so much extra once she seemed to be staying the same weight, and am a little worried about feeding her too much and getting her too fat. She's never been obese but has a tendency to get too chubby. The past couple days, I've been giving her tiny snacks to see if that might help calm her down about it.​

@Kris & Teasel --

Hahah thanks, I'm a little particular.​

Thanks for the responses, all! Freya has some opinions about this whole thing herself:

 

Great photo!!

 

Love the photo! Hopefully the snacks will help her feel better, and they also seem to help with the bouncing a bit by evening out the curve. Although again, your cycles are looking pretty good already. Sam tends toward the chubby as well. He's at 11 pounds right now, but the vet says he really needs to lose another half pound. I tend to disagree and think he's plenty skinny already!

You shouldn't see those drastic drops as much on Prozinc. They can happen, but not as much as with Caninsulin. And really, from the prozinc data you have so far, she doesn't look particularly bouncy to me. Her pre-shots are all in a pretty close range. Even those two yellows are within the error allowance to be virtually the same as the pinks. This morning's PS is a little high, but you've had higher on the Caninsulin, so I think even that is consistent with Freya's normal ranges right now.

Is there something you'd like us to call you? Or just "Freya's human"?

 

Hello and welcome! I'm so glad to hear that you're testing at home and your SS is beautiful! That's also a great photo of Freya!

Yong and Djamila have given you great info already so I'll just add let us know if you have any questions at all! We'd love to help in any way we can.

 

I'm glad nothing seems to be out of the ordinary. Just hoping it doesn't trend higher as the days go on. It is nice not seeing those freaky steep drops like with the Caninsulin, the biggest problem with which was that they were unpredictable.

Yeah, your guy doesn't look too fat to me. Freya could maybe gain a tad more, but I'm sure she doesn't need as much as she wants. She tends to be greedy. With smaller meals she gets all wound up and restless, I guess because she doesn't feel full. If she had her way, she'd probably have six huge meals a day, which is why I'm just trying some little snacks in between. Her food stress is kind of annoying alongside her tendency to gain weight. Last thing I need is for her to get too fat for the insulin to work as well. She's a smallish cat -- at least to my American sensibilities; I've noticed British people think she's bigger. The typical cat here seems smaller overall than the typical American cat. She's around 9-ish pounds. I remember once I had her in her carrier on a train, and this little old lady peered in and said, "Oh! It's a big black cat!" And I'm just wondering what she'd think if she saw my parents' 20-pound boys back in Florida.

And whoops, my name is Blair, but I guess in my haste to register for the forums I just put in the cat's name, hahah. I'll have to edit that.

 

The food stress is pretty normal. As she gets better regulated that should help her feel less hungry.

 

Do they know about Maine Coon's and Savannah's?

 

I wondered the same about the Maine coons, hahah.

Well, I am back again with a conundrum. Tomorrow will be Freya's seventh day on 2.5u of ProZinc. Her daytime nadirs have been in the yellow for four days, which is a step backward from the Caninsulin. I understand yesterday being higher because I gave her some extra food, but looking at the numbers around it, I don't think it likely to have made that much difference. I even tried a fat 2.5u today, but that doesn't seem to have helped much, and she didn't get anything extra to eat. I am also waiting on a delivery of more test strips, so trying to conserve what I have for the next couple of days in case of a hypo or something like that. I blew through the last 50 pretty fast!

Do you guys think I should try tweaking her dose? Those numbers at the start were so nice, and it seems like she's backtracking for days now, sometimes in quite a striking way, such as that 265 at her supposed nadir yesterday when it was 95 a few days prior. Ugh! Not sure exactly what is going on with it or the best way to proceed.

 

I'd stay with 2.5 u for now. She gave you some lovely green overnight a couple of days ago and now she's bouncing, as we call it. Here's something I wrote for someone else about bouncing. Maybe it'll help:

Here's how it works:

1. BG goes low OR lower than usual OR drops too quickly.
2. Kitty's body panics and thinks there's danger (OMG! My BG is too low!).
3. Complex physiologic processes take glycogen stored in the liver (I think of it as "bounce fuel"), convert it to glucose and dump it into the bloodstream to counteract the perceived dangerously low BG.
4. These processes go into overdrive in kitties who are bounce prone and keep the BG propped up varying lengths of time (AKA bouncing).
5. Bounce prone kitty repeats this until his body learns that healthy low numbers are safe. Some kitties are slow learners.
6. Too high a dose of insulin can keep them bouncing over and over until the " bounce fuel" runs out and they crash - ie., have a hypo episode. That's why we worry so much about kitties that have had too high a starting dose prescribed by the vet and the owner isn't home testing.
7. Many vets have little/no understanding of the bouncing phenomenon.

 

@Kris & Teasel --

I guess I wasn't sure how much time could pass before more elevated numbers were considered out of bounce response territory and into needing an increase. There were certain days when I could definitely see it after a lower cycle, but I guess I was confused since it's been pretty flat and higher during the AM for days -- so I wasn't sure what she would be bouncing from, if that makes sense. I am beginning to think she's doing this on purpose to get me back for all the ear jabs.​

 

I sort of agree with both of you. The dose seems good in that you got some nice numbers on it, and got some nice drops from the pre-shot to the mid-cycle. During the AM cycle, it's possible she's going to need a small increase, but I wouldn't do it until you have more test strips and can maybe grab a second mid-cycle during the day just to be sure you aren't missing something.

 

We generally say a bounce can last up to 6 cycles after the precipitating event. She was down to 5 overnight on 21 Apr. You're now on the 5th cycle since then so I'd wait to see what she'll do today, tonight and tomorrow AM before changing the dose. Djamila is referring to a sliding scale dosing method where you tailor the dose to the preshot number. It works very well in some cats but I couldn't do it with mine because he's extremely reactive to dose changes and it would have created chaos.

 

Maybe she knew I was complaining earlier, because her pre-shot just now was 166/9.2?! (Yes, we're on a bit of a weird routine for GMT due to late work hours and such.) I even tested a second time to confirm because it was such an anomaly. I wonder if the fat dose earlier made some difference, or if it was just coincidental. I guess she's not getting a shot. Or is it possible to give one a little later? She's already eaten because I didn't think stalling for 20 minutes was going to make that big a difference to be shootable. Plus, she was seriously freaking out to be fed -- getting into everything, sniffing around the floors, and jumping onto counters looking for anything to eat. I'm hoping it wasn't a mistake to feed her now but she was just going mental.

I've also been looking into automatic feeders that can take wet food, but if she knows there is food in something, I'm convinced she wouldn't quit messing with it until she managed to break it open! The things look so flimsy too.

Edit: Or wait, is that an okay number to shoot a reduced dose? I feel like I'm not familiar enough with her response to this insulin yet to figure out what to give her. Sometimes it brings her down so low.

 

Bounce has cleared in 5 cycles. No shot at a number like this until you have more ProZinc data.

 

Oops. Sorry for the lack of clarity! No, I didn't mean to suggest a sliding scale. I am not a fan or those either -- (at least until you start reducing doses, that's a whole different mess). Chasing the pre-shot around is almost always a losing game. Some cats need a slightly different dose morning vs. evening because their nadir is lower at night. So I was thinking you might possibly need a slightly higher dose AM than PM, but again, there wasn't enough data to know, and your dose was looking pretty good already. Glad to see the bounce clearing and it didn't matter anyway!

 

Freya hasn't felt so well!

She seemed fine and happy yesterday, playing, acting cute with her toys. Her BG even came back down to blue at nadir again, closer to how it was at the start of her ProZinc. Then she vomited at +1 past her PMPS, which is unlike her. She's not a finicky eater, has never had problems with new foods, never had any sort of reaction to any food, and in general isn't puke-prone the way a couple other of my cats have been. She's always had a healthy GI system, so this was very odd for her. Anyway, she ate another meal right after the vomiting and had no appetite issues. She wasn't acting like normal though and kept going off by herself to sit in empty rooms, seeming subdued and just not feeling well. As you can see, her BG stayed high. Could that just be from feeling sickness/pain? Last year when she was still eating dry, she had a period of throwing up, I think because she was wolfing it down so fast. That was the only time I ever really recall her throwing up until last night. Once we got a big mat and spread out the dry food, that stopped. And the times it did happen, she'd puke very shortly after eating and never appeared to feel sick. Last night was different because more than an hour had passed since eating, and she looked out of sorts and unwell.

I did speak with an emergency/out-of-hours vet, but ultimately decided to wait until morning for her regular vet since it was so late anyway, and she improved some as time went on. My husband stayed up to watch her while I got a few hours of sleep, then we traded off so I could take her to the vet first thing. She was much better by morning. The vet examined her, but didn't run any tests and instead sent me home with stuff to test for ketones given her weight loss and flaky coat, and some raniditine in case she feels sick again. I was told this might help if she was having some pancreatitis issues or other things like that? (She isn't diagnosed or anything.) As for the ketones, that was between negative and trace. I had a hard time telling for sure, but it looked like it leaned more toward negative. I do plan to get more strips, though.

She was shaking a little at the vet's office, I'm guessing from stress. When we got home this morning, she ate just fine and kept it down. By an hour or so later, she was acting 100% normal again. I went to test her at +5, and her BG was 61 (3.4). As I still expected it to drop and she's been unpredictable, I gave her some wet food along with a little dry. No vomit. At +6, BG was 56 (3.1), so I gave her more food with a little bit of honey mixed in. Still no vomit. That brought her back up to blue. Now, during all this, she hadn't been acting sluggish or anything like that, but she was getting frantically hungry. She didn't seem to feel bad or sick, just hungry and gobbling up whatever I put down.

The vet (which yet again, wasn't her usual vet) advised me to give her 1.5u for her PM shot tonight (assuming it's shootable), then try her at 2u in the AM.

How does that sound to you all, and do you have any suggestions?

And a note about foods (on the UK food lists): The Smilla canned food seemed okay for her on certain days, but I feel like looking at the overall trend, she stayed higher on it than on the Whiskas 7+ jelly pouches. She's kept having Whiskas on occasion while eating Smilla and Bozita, but a few nights ago I put her back on the Whiskas as her primary food for now. And again she seems to be staying lower on it, aside from her bad time last night. I know for sure it's lower carb than Bozita. I also have some MAC's food to try her on in the coming days, and I'm hoping it'll be an improvement over Smilla and Bozita as far as her BG is concerned. I just kind of want to give her system a break for the moment and not start her on anything she hasn't had before until I'm sure she's better off.

 

I'm so sorry to hear Freya isn't feeling well! Sounds like you and your husband are doing a great job of taking care of her! I don't know much about tummy upset and pancreatitis in cats, so I'll leave that to one of the many folks on here who have experience with it.

As for the dosing, I think dropping to 1.5 and then back to 2.0 is too much movement on the dose. If your PMPS is in her normal ranges, I do agree that a slight reduction might be a good idea (3.1 is pretty close to hypo ranges), but I would say 2.25, and then get a couple of mid-cycle tests, of course. Because she was pretty low this morning, my best guess is that she'll be a bit high tonight.

However, if someone who knows something about stomach issues has a different recommendation, go with their suggestion as I'm not sure how that would impact things!

 

I agree with dropping the dose to 2.25 u (eyeballed on the syringe) because of those low greens. There's a drug called Cerenia often prescribed here (Canada and US) for nausea and vomiting. You might ask about it.

 

I was just thinking 2.25U too! Maury had a one time throw-up incident a little while ago. I made a Vet appointment but told them I wanted to monitor him for 24 hours before taking him in but ended up cancelling appointment. He had seemed a bit hungrier so I think he just ate too fast. He was getting 2.25oz of wet food for meals, so for the next few meals I gave him half. Waited about 10-15 mins, then gave the remaining. Hope this was the cause for Freya's and that she feels better soon You guys are doing great! Also, here is the UK Food list (I think) compiled by Eliz and Bertie: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1J5JpMe6TDXrHq_aTl9hUtHy6Gs9oRBqlz4nPGKxtySA/pubhtml

 

@Djamila / @Kris & Teasel / @Yong --

Okay, thanks! I know the sheet says they were fat 2s, but I wrote them as that mostly because while I tried to get 2.25s, I'm really not sure exactly what the hell they were on these u40 syringes... but uh, 2.25 was my intention? Hahah. Those 2.50 Fs may have been more like 2.75s. It's so hard to tell. I plan to get the u100s eventually, but just starting out, I wanted to get used to syringes without having to worry about the conversions. I could just see myself accidentally giving the completely wrong dose. I found those conversion charts on here though, so I'll have to make note of that.
​

She stayed relatively high and flat last night, but gave me a better AMPS of 304 (16.9) this morning. No more puking either so far! She still seemed to feel a bit puny yesterday morning, but is back to being herself now. Fingers crossed that she's through with that. If it happens again, I'll try the suggestion of taking away half for 10 to 15 minutes.

At some point this coming week, I'm going to try her on the MAC's food that arrived from the Happy Kitty Company. When I calculated the varieties I picked, they're 1%, 1.5%, 2%, and and 2.5% carbs. She's currently eating 3.87% and seems to be extremely carb sensitive. It really made a difference and brought her up when she tried a 5.5% carb food. Smilla, while also low carb, also seems to be too much for her, and just switching back to the 3.87% Whiskas seems to have made a noticeable impact on her numbers... but I'd rather she eat something better than Whiskas all the time if possible, especially with how the big multinationals are always changing recipes. Do you think when I try her on the lower-carb MAC's, I should give her a slightly lesser dose to be safer?

 

Maybe make the food changeover gradually when you can do some extra tests but leave the dose the same. If the very low carb food allows her numbers to drop significantly, you'll catch it with the testing. Then you can tweak the dose. Best not to change two variables at the same time.

 

It is true that some kitties are more carb sensitive than others and you're data will help verify

 

My kitty was super carb sensitive and we had to give her lower carb food to try to help that out. Making the food change gradual is a good idea to keep the variables the same and also to avoid any tummy upset that can sometimes happen!

 

Yeah, sometimes I'll check out the foods other forum members have their cats eating, and I'm amazed that their BG stays so nice because I'm used to Freya being so carb sensitive that anything higher than what she's on now seems to mess with her. I know all cats are different, but it kind of blows my mind, hahah. She definitely seems to be in the crowd that needs 4% or less.

She's a bit higher today as I figured she'd be, especially with the lowered dose, but she's still getting down into the blues -- better than those bouncy yellows last night. Of course I hoped she'd be a tad lower, but honestly it's better so far than I expected!

 

And Teasel who's a bounce champion isn't particularly carb sensitive ... truly ECID!

 

I guess I spoke too soon because now she's going higher and much flatter in pinks and yellows. 299 (16.6) at +6 the other night, not much better last night, and 272 (15.1) at +5 today! And the pre-shots were looking promising too. Ugh!

 

It could still be the bounce working it's way out. Bounces can last up to about 6 cycles. Complimentary patience pants are available

 

I think I'll take a couple pairs! Teasel might be giving her ideas.

 

@Rachel found this nice design:

 

Those look perfect.

And are we sure these are foxes and not just weird looking cats?

 

Hahah. I guess on the positive side, she was so high that I didn't have to stay home again or worry about her while going to town for dinner?!

 

Yes, that's the plus side of bouncing.

 

I guess I should edit this thread title at this point.

She had her second ever yellow PMPS tonight, which is nice. Granted, that number was barely different from her AMPS and nadir earlier because she's been so flat... but still!

I gave the same dose as I have been -- my eyeballed and probably poor attempt at 2.25u. I was tempted to give a little less, but in the past, I've regretted being overly aggressive about adjusting doses with marginally lower pre-shots. It has me a little on edge because with how she's been lately, it could either be high and flat again, or decent, or so low I have to watch her. Ugh, who am I kidding, I will probably watch her obsessively anyway, or at least check her at +4 and +5. It's a good thing she's cute.



One day recently, I went out looking for a container for her testing supplies. They just happened to have this tin at TK Maxx, so I'm pretty sure it was meant to be.

 

Purrfect! She's a cutie!

 

Classic bounce...that flat cycle!

 

275 (15.3) at +3. Really?! Argh! Glad I didn't give her less.

Think I'll try on those fancy pants now...

 

Annnd... 266 (14.8) at +5. Blah! I guess at least I can actually go to sleep for good now rather than napping.

Weird thing is, despite the higher/flatter numbers for multiple cycles, her polyuria was much better today. Like, improved enough that it wouldn't shock me for a non-diabetic cat, which is really saying something for her. Not sure how that makes any sense, but I'll take it!

 

There's often very little about this that makes sense!

 

The only thing that makes sense is that not much does make sense Apparently, I'm a little wonky today lol

 

Red pre-shot tonight, disappointing.

She's also lost a little weight since starting ProZinc... and after just having gained some back, too. So I think I'm going to have to feed her more for a while and will start on that tomorrow. I expect this means I might end up having to increase her dose after a few days? It was already looking to me like maybe I'd have to give the slightest bit more even before deciding to give her extra food.

She's been accustomed to eating twice a day and doesn't seem particularly bothered by that. She likes to eat large meals, so my intention is to give her the bulk of her food just before injections, with a smaller snack somewhere in between. If I give her some more food a couple of hours after her injections, should that be alright? I'm not sure how food in between shots generally affects things, so I don't know the best way to go about that.

 

You might need to increase...I'd wait and see, though. If you need to increase the dose to increase the food, that's what you do!

Several people give snacks on here. I know Caitlin gives a snack around +6 by using a pet feeder as her kitty would sometimes go kind of low during the day. As long as no food 2 hours before shot, you're good.

 

I like the idea of a timed feeder, in theory... but when Freya knows there's food somewhere, she can get obsessive. I have a feeling she'd break into a feeder unless it was very well constructed! If anyone has found a brand that can stand up to a particularly persistent cat, I'd love to know, hahah.

I ended up giving her extra food tonight since she was hungry, and she's settled down now. Looking at her, she still has a belly, but her little hips are too obvious for my liking. Kind of strange looking since she's not equally thin all over.

Maybe I'll use snack time to start to introduce her new foods, since they're even lower carb than her main meals at the moment. Assuming her BG doesn't disagree with some random ingredient, it should interfere less with her levels. I feel very fortunate that at least she's never been a picky eater or prone to sickness from food changes.

Oh, something else I've mentioned to the vet before, but they haven't really investigated: her legs. She will thump her back leg(s), like a rabbit, or like something is on her foot, but nothing is there. She'll also shake her front paws and lick at them. Her front legs tremble slightly when she stands. Is this likely to just be the diabetes, or could it be some other undetected thing? She thumped just now which made me realise I hadn't posted about it. She doesn't act like she's in pain with this, and she still jumps up on the bed, chairs, and window sills regularly. But I sure don't like it.

 

Seems typical weight loss in diabetic cats with neuropathy lose muscle mass. May be why she looks thinner in the back end / hip area. Maury's loss is more obvious there too.

One of our GA cats used to do that, most of his life, so his nickname was Thumper. Never found a reason but thinking with Freya, it could be the nerves "Firing" or sending partial signals that trigger. Maury has also done the shake and lick on his front paws, even saw him kick the air with a back one. For him, and hopefully Freya too, I think it's his nerves healing so some signal is getting through again. I haven't done any of my Librarian work, just lost in my head thinking from my own nerve experiences.

 

Poor Maury. Has he fattened up any? Freya's state bothers me because just six months ago, she felt strong and muscular (or as muscular as these squishy animals can feel) when you'd pick her up.

She never had the unusal hock-walk that I know is indicative of neuropathy. Could the trembling/shaking/thumping maybe be a lesser degree of it, or is that not how it works? It's not something I noticed until relatively recently. I was out of the country for a couple months while Freya stayed here with my husband, and when I came back, she was showing symptoms of diabetes. (The weight loss was all the more noticeable to me since I hadn't seen her in a while, and suddenly she was weak and fragile skin and bones!) That was how she ended up diagnosed, but I don't recall when the leg stuff started. I just know she wasn't doing it when I left in December. The vet has asked if I can get it on video, and it's like... not really??? The thumping is random, rapid, and over in about one second. And the front leg trembling is so slight that I don't think it would show up on a video. Curiously, I haven't noticed either of these things happening when she's lying down. Hm. There was a period where she wasn't jumping on things as much, or running to play. I guess that could be related to this. I've just always heard of more dramatic neuropathy symptoms, so I started worrying it had to be something else.

 

Maury's muscle loss happened relatively quick, to me. Last I weighed him (my scale keeps yelling low battery and I keep forgetting to change it) he had gained almost 2 lbs. I won't be around to and confirm tomorrow but I do think it maybe a mild form. So the nerves are mis-firing, so to speak. Tendency to occur when weight is applied. If you sit straight up in a chair with your legs at 90° roughly, to the ground and push up from your foot so it's more on toes, your leg will probably start shaking too. Relax your leg muscles as best you can. Do it laying down and it shouldn't happen. Like I said, Maury does the front paw thing too and have seen mild trembling. When I saw him more on his hocks that's when I made the Vet appointment. First Vet (long time Vet) refused to do blood work. Said he was just fat and needed to lose weight. She was glad to see he lost weight and was eating less (for a period of time). I left with fire burning in my eyes.... That's another tangent and there was quite a few months before his diabetic signs started. Methylcobalamin B12 (Zobaline is popular here) can help speed the nerve healing process but I read and have heard the best thing is to still get BG numbers under control . Sorry for the mild rambling lol

 

What the @#$%?! That is infuriating and so irresponsible of the vet. Poor kitty. I'd have been mad too. Glad to hear he's gained some weight back though! Freya just felt so frail upon my return, like she might break if I held her wrong. I'd cry sometimes just from picking her up. She's not back to normal yet, but looks better now in so many ways. I think maybe the insulin switch has just thrown her off a little.

And yeah, I guess the best thing for everything is to control the BG, in the end. She's running/playing/jumping more readily again, so maybe that's what healing looks like for her, even if she didn't have it as bad as some do. I'd read that about the B12. Something I'll have to keep in mind. I wonder if a little of that might help since it's not severe anyway. She doesn't act like it hurts, but it's obviously uncomfortable for her.

 

They are tough when it comes to hiding pain. Maury would force himself to come upstairs to the bedroom cos I think he knew I knew something wasn't right when he stayed downstairs. I'd try to jump out of bed to catch him halfway and carry him the rest of the way. Then I'd wake up throughout the night seeing if he was trying to go down so I could carry him down again. Tough little guy

 

Could be some mild version of feline hyperesthesia syndrome.

 

Both are neurological disorders, so possibly still affected by diabetes. Will have to

 

Just wanted to chime in on the trembling. Chuck has this randomly in his front legs. It's exactly like Yong described with your legs shaking. He also kicks his back paws randomly but I chalked that up to litter bring stuck on them. Both have happened less since I started zobaline.
Very interesting. My civvie has pain in his front paws from being declawed before I got him. He shakes and licks his paws too but he usually ends up nibbling on them like they itch. ETA: He has a few symptoms that could possibly point to a mild version of feline hyperesthesia syndrome.
I use the petsafe 5 feeder. Chuck has yet to break into it... Knock on wood.

 

Interesting information here. Freya may have some discomfort in her front paws too as they're also declawed, though I wish they weren't. But again, none of this ever seemed to start until the diabetic symptoms appeared. She licks between her "fingers". The back leg thumping is a super rapid movement, like how a rabbit would thump on the ground. Her back paws aren't declawed, though.

I'll have to check out the PetSafe. That does look a bit sturdier than a lot of them. How do you handle keeping the wet food fresh in it?

 

It has icepacks .

 

Oh, hmm... the questions/answers part here said it didn't have a slot for ice packs.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/PetSafe-5-Meal-Pet-Feeder/dp/B000GEWHNS

I wonder if they changed the design or something?

 

Oh I was thinking this one: http://amzn.eu/bUS6L4P

 

I think we were both looking at the same one, but I was just not reading far enough down. I see now, I didn't fully expand all the questions/answers. It looks like it has a slot for a pack underneath the open food slot. For how many hours would that keep the other slots fresh? I've only ever used dry feeders, so this is a new concept for me, hahah. If we had Young Again over here, I'd probably leave a small amount of that in her old dry feeder... but alas.

 

Some people use a combo of no ice pack/ ice pack with fridge cool food/ ice pack with frozen food etc. to keep food fresh over the course of the day.

 

Sounds like I may have to experiment with how long it takes her various foods to thaw. Science. Least we have the benefit of being in Scotland where it's cool all year, and not back "home" in Florida where it's like the perpetual seventh circle of hell.

Also, @Yong , I just looked over Maury's sheet again and he really seems like he's doing so much better recently! Those reds are disappearing. Looks like we're similar in that we didn't start home testing until about a month into things. What a difference it makes.

 

Yes, there are some benefits to living in a cool climate! Here in Ottawa it's a climate of extremes - minus 30 C in the winter and +30 with humidity in the summer.

 

Yikes! When I got Freya's mixed trial pack of foods from the Happy Kitty Company, I picked a couple types of things she hadn't eaten before to see how she'd respond. After her lunch today, I'm thinking she's one of those beef-sensitive cats... good god, never seen anything like that before. Trial and error. Sigh.

She thought it was super tasty though!

 

I'm in Alabama, so I totally get the 7th circle of hell thing!

 

There have been summer days here Ottawa, Canada that feel like the 7th circle of hell ...

 

He's making me a little with his day cycles lol. Correct, I had planned to start after his first Vet curve (failed attempt) after second Vet said I could do it at home but I went and injured myself for a bout 3 1/2 weeks. May have healed faster if I hadn't pushed myself to get him his insulin but I knew I couldn't skip that for so long. Since I couldn't move much, I perched on my sofa and watched him like a hawk

 

Hahah, I think the average summer temperature where I am in Scotland is like... 50 F/15ish C. It does get warmer than that during the days, in the 60s. As soon as it hits 65, the Scots are lying on the grass in the city centre and talking about it being hot. There is the occasional (actual!) heatwave, but it's got nothing on Florida.

Yeah, Freya went and got diabetes at an inconvenient time for me too. She's so inconsiderate. But never had a curve done at the vet. They just told me to inject her the same dose every day, no mention of home testing until I found this site, and said she'd get a curve eventually. One of the vets actively discourages the daily testing and tells me it'll lead to overanalysis. Sorry, but I don't want my cat to be like the one the vet told me about at Freya's last visit. Apparently, this cat was diabetic for years, then suddenly had a hypo and was so near death that everyone was shocked it survived to go OTJ! But hey, he was getting fructosamine tests every X months... The thought of it freaks me out. I've wondered if that vet just thinks it will lead to me asking more questions or being more annoying. I feel like I'm contacting them a lot less than I would be without the data! But ugh, thinking of those odd days where she's below 150 and the vet would've had me just blindly shooting 3+ units... I don't get it. But I could rant about that for ages!

 

My Aunt's kitty had diabetes and other health issues for a few years. She did occasional curves and had frucstosamine tests, think I already said they tried to guilt me for testing Maury's BG "Aww all those pokes are painful" My thought (kept my smart@$$ mouth shut), Death from a hypo is more painful. Unfortunately, I think her kitty went DKA and she had him put to sleep. She loved her cat but her sister needs her and I think she was tired of living the 12hr life.

 

Aw, that's too bad. What frustrates me is the lack of vet instruction, and vets even being disagreeable to owners being proactive. The cats really do get used to the pokes, though. Freya doesn't even seem to feel them 80% of the time anymore. She gets more grumpy from being forced to sit still than from the pokes! The times she does feel them, it's because she's gotten impatient and decided to jerk her head just as I'm about to do it. But she practically sleeps through her PM ones now. Rather have a cat that's grumpy for five seconds than a dead cat.

 

Right?! I understand Vet's not pushing it on people but don't disagree if you have someone who is more than willing . I think Maury meows most times out of habit lol

 

Three yellow pre-shots in a row! This is new. Well, this morning's was literally as high a yellow as it could be without being pink, but I'll take what I can get to console myself as I try to work out her food...

Yesterday I gave her more at the +4s than I planned on doing regularly. She gets 1 1/3 pouches of Whiskas before each shot -- already above her suggested intake, but she needs to fatten up. I'm going to see how she does on an extra pouch per day, with 1/2 between each shot. I can try to do a different time, but +4 is doable for me usually, until I can get my hands on a feeder. Once I have a feeder, what time do you guys think I should set it for to keep her as low as I can for longer? She seems to be lower from +4 to +6/+7, without that much change during that stretch. She's a scarfer, for what it's worth. She'll be getting about half as much at snack times today as yesterday, so the spikes won't be as high. And after seeing her AM +6 yesterday, she's not getting any more beef! I'm still shocked. Totally demolished the nice greens that were coming. /sniff

Yesterday might not be the best representation. But looking at her recent pattern overall, I'm not certain what the best time to do it is. Should I maybe try giving it to her shortly after her shot, once her other food has settled? I don't have a zero-carb food, sadly... so whatever I give her will cause a rise of some sort. Now that I think about it, it sounds like that might be a good option? Assuming it's long enough after her other meal that she won't puke.

I think once I have some sort of workable pattern/solution going, I'll start trialling other foods. Really need an alternative to Whiskas that works for her. Argh.

 

You could do +4 or +5. If you could test it out on a weekend when you're home, you could see when she tends to go lowest and set the feeder up for that time.

 

Hurray for the yellows! One added suggestion about the feeder, and please forgive me if this has already been said - I was just skimming - but be sure to add some extra water to the food that will open later. Having the lid on those compartments does keep them fresher than being out in the air, but a little extra water helps too!

You're doing such a great job with Freya!

 

Thanks for the tips. I do add water to her food, but might not have thought about it if I ended up freezing a little of it for the feeder, so I'll remember that now! And thanks, I'm really trying with her. Hate seeing her lose weight again.

I found an Encore chicken pate that's supposed to be zero carbs, but of course the Asda near us doesn't have it, at least not today. Guess I'll have to check back another day, and try Sainsbury's. It would be great to get a hold of something like that so she could eat more if needed without it doing a number on her BG. Could even mix her Whiskas with it if I wanted her to have a little carb content but not too much. I was all excited to have her try some, but my husband bore the bad news of none being in stock... bleh!

 

I always add water to Maury's frozen portions too, make sure he gets the extra water . With the exception of today (involuntary cat nap) Maury gets his lunch at +4 and PM lunch after before bed test. The frozen one's probably thaw before the +4 but I'm not home to control that . Basically, I like to get it in him before his nadir, when the insulin is working at it's peak and hopefully the carbs are wearing out by that point

 

Don't mind the mess there but this is under the part that spins. I thought this was the spot for an ice pack.
I just put an ice cube on top of the food. It keeps it from drying out and keeps it cool.

 

That makes sense and is sort of what I was contemplating too, so it's good to hear of someone else doing the same. I may try that. Ideally I'd like to give her a tiny bit of Whiskas or something at +4ish with a small amount of carbs, and mix it with as large a portion of zero-carb stuff as necessary to get her chubbed up again. It would be so nice to be able to feed her larger amounts without her BG going berserk. Her carb sensitivity is such a headache, I swear. But watch, with my luck, some random and seemingly innocuous ingredient will spike her anyway. There's nothing dodgy on the ingredients list, but I'm sure she'll find a way...

 

Oh, I see! That's actually very helpful. Why don't they show these types of images on the purchasing pages?

Is it possible to weigh the feeder down with something on top without it affecting the mechanism? I ask because I am positive she'd push the thing all around the kitchen and dig at it trying to get food out.

 

Can you get these in Scotland? They are listed as 0% carbs on Dr. Lisa's list. Even when I calculated a few, highest I got was 3%. I like to have ranges compared to Dr.Lisa's values . It's with her formula so not like I don't trust her information

 

Apparently I can get them for like... £50 on Amazon UK, hahah.

I think the equivalent to Fancy Feast here might be Gourmet, but the varietes I checked so far had too many carbs.

 

£50 for one?? Or like a case? Either way that's crazy! lol
What about MAC's? Can be purchased from Happy Kitten Company

 

She has a couple varieties of MAC's to try still. The veal & turkey type was the one that spiked her so insanely, which was disappointing. I have a couple other very low-carb types from them, but am wondering if ingredients like banana and blueberry might spike her. She's never had that kind of thing before. I guess we'll find out.

 

Yes you can put something on top. Chuck sits on top waiting for it to turn, sometimes. Other times it startles him. Depends on what he's doing at the time.
Eta: my 19 pound civvie sits on it too.

 

With our timed feeder, it totally stressed Sam out the first couple of days, and he would not stop trying to break into it. I thought he was going to hurt himself. I kept picking him up and moving him to a different room, but he kept running back. After it spun the first time and he got some food, he settled down a little bit. Within a day or two, he didn't wrestle with it as much and his stress went back down. He knows exactly when it's going to open, and both cats are always sitting there staring at it by the time it opens. So all that to say: it will probably be a bit difficult at first, and it's hard to watch our kitties be stressed like that, but hopefully Freya will settle down too after a little adjustment period.

 

That's encouraging. I'm mostly worried she'd obsess and break the damn thing, hahah. She did come to ignore the dry feeder until she heard the motor at meal times, so I'd hope she'd do the same with a wet one. She's just so fixated on food these days.

She's currently sleeping off her dinner. I looked back to check on her and this was too cute not to share:





Black cats are hard to get pictures of, but you can kind of make out a cat-shaped blob if you squint. She has this thing about putting toys wherever she sleeps. She'll pick one up and carry it somewhere to nap with it, and often we'll wake up with one of her toys on the bed. Sometimes she does this weird meow at night, and after staying up a couple times to test her, I've realised it's her toy-carrying meow. Weirdo.

 

Oh my gosh!!! My civvie totally does all of that too!!! It's so crazy! He has this one mouse in particular that's like a toddler's security blanket - he has to have it to sleep if I'm not home. And I totally know that weird toy-carrying cry.

Also: those pictures are absolutely adorable! What a sweet baby you have!

 

How adorable she is!!!!!

 

I had a kitty in the past who would go get socks from my clean socks basket and drag them down the hall like she was carrying a dead antelope. She did that weird echo-y meow thing while she had the socks in her mouth. Cats are so strange sometimes ...

 

So cute!

 

The meow really is strange. I wonder if this behaviour is some kind of "hunting" thing.

I'm liking these recurring yellow pre-shots. I just wish I could keep her down more throughout the cycle. All of yesterday was pretty flat even before she had her +4 food. The day before, she had some blues, but not as low as I'd like to see. The little Sainsbury's by us didn't have any of the food I was looking for (only had Encore dog), and Asda doesn't seem to stock the pates. Even online they seem a bit scarce. So back to the drawing board. I might see what Morrison's carries if I end up down that way later, and for today's +4, I might try another of the MAC's. She never has digestive issues, but trying new foods is so intense now that she's diabetic. Those sugar spikes... Maybe I'll try Applaws or something if these don't work out.

I'll also be ordering her that feeder, today most likely. God, I have a feeling it's going to be hellish until she adjusts to the idea of there being food she can smell but not immediately gobble! Seriously no idea how grazer cats even work. She's always been a scarfer.

After I got home from the food search and sat down at the desk to check the forums, she jumped down from the bed where she'd been sleeping and came over. She put her little paw on my leg and squeaked, so I picked her up and she loafed in my lap for a bit. She hasn't "asked" to get on my lap while I've been at the desk for quite a while. She'll crawl onto or beside me if I'm sitting elsewhere, but that was kind of nice.

 

Ugh! +4 reading of 220 (12.2) before her food. Where did the blues go??

She tried some MAC's Turkey & Blueberry. The can is 400g but I did my best to spoon out approximately 50g. Looked like a nice quality, with recognisable meat. Smelled decent. As with everything else, she inhaled it. While I'm sure she'd have eaten herself sick if I let her, it did seem to fill her up enough to hang out on the window sill and purr about being scratched. I tested her just now, about an hour after she ate, and her BG has continued to go down! It's 162 (9.0). Obviously not ideal, but at least it doesn't look like she had any sort of crazy reaction to the blueberry. Compare to the 100-point rise on the Veal & Turkey! Granted, she got more that time, but that amount shouldn't have caused her number to double at +5 in any case!

I feel a little better that at least this food seems okay. It's a start. She'll finish off that can over the next however many feedings so it doesn't go to waste. I guess I may have to watch her a little more closely if it's having a lesser impact on her than the Whiskas. Which it should; I think it's around 1% carb. The Salmon & Chicken is pretty low too, so she'll try that at the next opportunity... but that one has banana. Hopefully we get a similar result with it. Looks like I may have to hit up the Happy Kitty Company again!

 

The PetSafe 5 feeder arrived today. I put her PMPS meal in the open slot to get her used to it, and her PM +4 snack in there with some ice to see how it holds up. I'll check tonight to see if it rotates when it's supposed to. She's been licking furiously at it, and when I last checked, she was sitting by it and staring. She's getting extra food as it is, the little hog. Doesn't feel like she's lost any more weight, so I'm pleased about that.

The (barely) yellow pre-shots continue! ...As do the flatter cycles. Yesterday was better, but not good enough. It's nice to see so many more yellows than pinks, but she's lost some blues and greens. I think she got a bit more food than she maybe needed at her pre-shots today (not used to how MAC's portions work for her yet), so that may be why she was a little bit higher. You can see the food isn't really doing much to her at the +4s though, so not sure how big a factor it was in her numbers today. She just seems flatter in general, and higher than she should be, with the exception of the 2nd. Prior to her food spike that day, that is... still mad about that.

I guess it could still be a bounce, but do you think I might need to do a slight dose increase if she doesn't go back down some within the next few cycles? Like maybe attempt a fat 2.25 or a normal 2.5 again?

 

It does look like bouncing to me...why not give it a cycle or 2 and let's see if she breaks that pattern or if she stays high and flat.

 

I had a black cat, Bubba, that NEVER meowed except for in the middle of the night with a toy in his mouth. First time he did it I bolted out of bed thinking he was dying or stuck/hurt.
I agree with the Rachel that it looks like she's bouncing.

 

The toy meow is really a horrible sound, hahah. And I have a soft spot for black cats thanks to her.

I'm glad you're both thinking that, because I thought it might be but talked myself into being on the fence about it. I'll see how she does over the next day or so.

 

I'm sitting on that fence with you. If I squint and turn my head one way, it looks like bouncing, but if I squint and turn my head the other way it looks like too little insulin.

However, I wouldn't recommend a dose change while you're still figuring out the food. @jbfrank did a great job of explaining the other day how diabetes craves consistency, and I've certainly found that to be true. Since you're only two cycles on a new food, I would think sticking with the dose for another cycle or two would help do both: clear the bounce and give the food change time to settle.

 

She's 241 (13.4) for her AMPS. What do you think I should shoot? Not sure if anyone on here is even up yet, hahah.

Edit: I stalled (which she was very angry about!) and she was back up to 295 (16.4) after twenty minutes. I'd have liked to inject at 241, but I'm really not certain what I should do at that range. I haven't managed to figured out a scale. Does anyone have any suggestions on that?

 

That's a good point. The Happy Kitty Company has also been out of half of the foods I was going to get for her, so I'm not able to order more yet. She's back on the Whiskas for now and will try MAC's Salmon & Chicken once some more time has passed since her last fish day. HKC is now out of MAC's Duck/Turkey/Chicken, Poultry/Cranberry, and the smaller cans of Salmon/Chicken that I was wanting. WHY.

 

Based on the blues you've had recently I'd try 2.5 u if you can monitor. I find that focusing on how low a dose has taken a kitty can be the deciding factor even though you have to give a nod to the PS. You could probably use 200 as your NS given the amount of data you have. That can be lowered over time too.