? Going on extended vacation soon - need dosing advice please!

Discussion in 'Prozinc / PZI' started by Panic, Sep 29, 2019.

  1. Panic

    Panic Member

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    Apr 10, 2019
    I am just under two weeks out from a 10 day vacation. A friend of mine will be caring for Panic, and while she already knows my friend, she will be in a new environment with strangers, kids, and dogs. To put it bluntly, I imagine she'll be upset about it and assume we'll be seeing elevated numbers, but I would still like to prevent any emergencies while I'm away.

    All of her diabetic tools will be with her - glucometer, auto feeder, emergency kit, etc. and my friend has agreed to at least test her before every shot, I'm not sure if she will be able to consistently test throughout the cycles but let's assume not.

    Aside from the different environment, I'll also be leaving slightly higher carb food for her. Normally she eats FF at 2-3% carbs during the day and 5% carbs 9 Lives at night. I'll be giving my friend only 9 Lives both for simplicity and an extra safety cushion.

    Since my vacay is going to be so extended I was wondering what dose she should be on while I'm gone. I'm also hoping to get advice on a preshot dosing guide for my friend. I know the rule for newbies is below 200 no shoot, but Panic has a lot of data so I'm not sure if this still applies. This is part of the guide I have typed up so far to give my friend:


    Below 200 – Stall feeding about 20 minutes and retest. We want to see if she’s rising on her own. If she’s over 200 after the 20 min, I would recommend a token dose of maybe _____ units. If she’s holding, give _____ unit, if dropping just skip the dose. Expect a high number at dinner time either way.

    201 to 240 – Good preshot numbers, but maybe lower the dose to ______ units to be on the safe side.

    241 and above – Full dose


    I'm being very cautious about this because I want Panic to be safe but I also don't want to be too conservative. Could anyone help me figure out what her dose should be while I'm away, what my friend's no-shoot number should be, and fill in the gaps depending on her preshot above? I'm open to changes on my preshot number advice to my friend, like if I should extend the full dose allowance, etc.

    Tagging some people who have helped me with Panic's dosage in the past. If you're unable to help just ignore!
    @FurBabiesMama
    @Djamila
    @MrWorfMen's Mom I know you're not a PZI expert but if you have any advice please share!
     
  2. FurBabiesMama

    FurBabiesMama Well-Known Member

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    I don't want you to think I ignored you, but I do not really feel comfortable giving you advice on a dose for while you are gone. Panic's numbers seem to be running pretty high to me, but there have been no mid-cycle tests the last few days (in AM cycle) so it's hard to say for sure. I am also not a fan of changing the dose on a pre-shot by pre-shot basis. All I can say is to get as much data as you can between now and then and wait until closer to time for you to leave to decide anything - a lot can happen in a week or two.
     
  3. Panic

    Panic Member

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    It's okay, that's why I said to ignore if unable to help. :)

    Since my friend probably won't be getting mid cycles in I thought changing dose on a preshot basis would be best. I've never left her alone before though so I don't know what protocol is.
    Her numbers have definitely been bugging me, I had to be out the door at the crack of dawn and back right in time for her PM shot the past three days so I hesitate to increase since I don't know what's going on yet.
     
  4. MrWorfMen's Mom

    MrWorfMen's Mom Well-Known Member

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    Feb 18, 2015
    While I am not usually a fan of changing doses based on pre-shots, I have to admit to doing just that with my girl when I went away and with an insulin that craves consistency more so than ProZinc.

    Like FurBabiesMama, I am a bit confused as to what to suggest right now.
    Part of my confusion comes in where you wrote you thought you gave a fur shot but BG actually went to blue on the night of the 28th.
    Then it appears you gave a reduced shot of 1.4u on the 30th (not sure why you reduced?) and got the lowest PMPS in a while.
    The night cycle of the 30th and the low AMPS today, appear to suggest that Panic went lower last night on the full dose of 1.6u last night.

    While it's ok for Panic to sit in slightly higher numbers while you are gone, you don't really want all those pink and certainly not red pre-shots if at all possible. Right now it's unclear what dose works best for her.

    When exactly do you leave? Do you have a couple of days to experiment a wee bit?
     
  5. Panic

    Panic Member

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    Apr 10, 2019
    Okay, let me see if I can fill in some information gaps.

    The 28th I know I definitely messed up her shot because her fur was wet after I administered her insulin, so I was also surprised with the blue.

    The 30th she was given 1.4u partly as an accident - I meant to give her more of 1.5, but the reason for the reduction at all is because yesterday I was out of town essentially sun-up to sun-down, her preshot was lower than usual and I felt I still wasn't sure what has been going on in her cycles enough for me to be comfortable leaving her alone full-dose.

    I essentially do BCS whenever I'm not home if the preshot is lower than the past few cycle preshots since I won't be there to monitor. I don't like reducing her shots like that but since I'm not home to check and offer extra food I get paranoid. Every Saturday I'm gone right after her shot until right before her next, and every Sunday is similar. The thing with Saturdays is there is no one home and Panic stays outside with her auto feeder. I don't like it but I am not allowed to keep her inside while we're gone, and every once in a while when I get back I see she hasn't eaten all of her scheduled meals. So I get antsy about whether she's getting enough food during her cycle. I'm totally open to alternate ideas, I know it's not ideal, I just get nervous about her being alone.

    I'm very confused with her dosage right now in general, it was clear that 1.75 was too much for her, 1.5 wasn't enough, and now 1.6 is giving her bad pre-shots. I don't understand all the random reds and blacks when she isn't particularly dropping low or fast enough for a bounce.

    I will be taking her to my friend's house next Thursday night (the 10th) and staying the night to help her out, then leaving Friday morning on the 11th. I have at least a week for experimenting!
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2019
  6. MrWorfMen's Mom

    MrWorfMen's Mom Well-Known Member

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    Ok. I think I understand at least most of that info.;) Just not clear on is why Panic has to spend her time outdoors on Saturdays just because no one is home but it is what it is so we work around it.

    How about trying 1.4u for a few cycles and see what she does? I have to wonder if 1.6u is too high if you really did give a furshot which it sounds like there is little question about. A dose reduction might be what she needs to bring those pre-shots down. These little monkeys have a habit of doing stuff overnight we don't always see and it leaves us scratching our heads and thinking numbers aren't making sense.
     
  7. Panic

    Panic Member

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    Apr 10, 2019
    *sigh* They don't want her peeing in the house. Which I understand, but since she has a history of doing it they won't give her any more chances even though she's improved immensely. They allow her in when I'm home "watching" her. She is technically outside on Sundays too when others are home but they at least keep an eye on her and encourage her to eat on time. Quarantining her to my room was a flop when the dog got mad and ripped off the door frame, so I'm out of options. I can only do so much while I'm here. :/

    You think so? I can definitely give it a shot (no pun intended!), I'll start tomorrow since she already had her PM shot (another pink).
     
  8. MrWorfMen's Mom

    MrWorfMen's Mom Well-Known Member

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    So this outside stuff is just temporary while you at BFs place but will continue while you are away? Does Panic get stressed out about being outside?
     
  9. Panic

    Panic Member

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    She is an indoor/outdoor kitty, she enjoys being outside. :) She is outside a lot of the time but I have her come in frequently to test or feed or just hang out. When I take her to stay at my friend's house she'll be staying strictly inside. Saturdays I'm at church all day (it's very far) and Sundays I work long.
     
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  10. Panic

    Panic Member

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    @MrWorfMen's Mom Her preshots are finally going back down into the yellows! Good call :D
     
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  11. MrWorfMen's Mom

    MrWorfMen's Mom Well-Known Member

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    Yeah! Good to hear/see! I'd hold the 1.4u for the next few cycles and see if things stay stable or improve further, then start planning for your vacation based on the lower BGs.
     
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  12. Panic

    Panic Member

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    Thank you, will do!
     
  13. Panic

    Panic Member

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    @MrWorfMen's Mom Well we were doing better...but now she's going back up into the pinks and red. I'm not sure what to do now.
     
  14. MrWorfMen's Mom

    MrWorfMen's Mom Well-Known Member

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    HMMM! Panic is a tough one to figure out. Is there any way you can get a test around +6 or +7 tonight? That's when she has often hit nadir. Just want to be sure she is not bouncing. I think it's unlikely but better to know for sure what she is doing overnight.
     
  15. Panic

    Panic Member

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    Apr 10, 2019
    Well yes I can, but I just pulled her head out of a bag of kibble someone left open :arghh: I left her alone about 10 minutes with her wet dinner so not sure how much she's been munching. How long will that affect her BG?! Will it ruin the entire cycle? Ugh >.<

    We never have open bags lying around btw in case you suspect that might be a factor, we keep it shut up in a container but they just got a new bag and didn't put it away yet.
     
  16. MrWorfMen's Mom

    MrWorfMen's Mom Well-Known Member

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    Well depending on how much Panic nibbled on, it could take a cycle or more to completely leave her system. I assume this was not low carb kibble! Are you absolutely sure kibble couldn't have been pilfered in any fashion in the last couple of days? I have one very stealthy little one that despite my trying to keep watch, often manages to get into stuff she shouldn't. 2 seconds of opportunity is all they need.
     
  17. Panic

    Panic Member

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    Apr 10, 2019
    Unfortunately not! About 40% last I checked. I can't say for certain since dry food is a part of the household. We're pretty diligent about picking up any dishes with food still in them before we let her outside but I won't say she hasn't found a piece or two we've missed. I can say for certain that TODAY (aside from just now) there is no way she got into any dry, because we ran out the day before. Hence the new bag. xD All the kitties got to share Panic's yummy food last night and this morning.

    Should I still test her at +6 or +7 tonight or would it be a waste?

    Edit: oh, and nine times out of ten we still feed the cats on the railings. I know Panic can get up there now if she wants but usually she just stares and pouts if she sees a bowl up there.
     
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2019
  18. MrWorfMen's Mom

    MrWorfMen's Mom Well-Known Member

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    Check her at +3 and see if she is down at all. If she is then yes I'd do the 2nd check. If she's up or the same, then forget the later test for tonight. It really depends on whether she gobbled 5 pieces or 25+ pieces as to how much effect it will have.
     
  19. Panic

    Panic Member

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    Apr 10, 2019
    Can do, I'm glad I at least caught her in the act so I know to expect it lol. Our cats sure have great timing to mess up their cycles!
    If tonight's cycle is a bust I'll do it tomorrow night for sure. Lucky me has the week off before the trip so work won't get in the way of some sleep-deprived nights. xD

    I really appreciate it <3 hope you're having a good weekend x3
     
  20. Panic

    Panic Member

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    Apr 10, 2019
    PMPS 390, +3 was 342, +6 was 511

    I figured +3 wasn't much lower than PMPS but got the +6 anyway... That's a really high number, could that have entirely been due to the kibble? :eek:
     
  21. Panic

    Panic Member

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    Apr 10, 2019
    AMPS 318

    Crazy how I would have never known how high she got last night if not for checking :eek:
     
  22. MrWorfMen's Mom

    MrWorfMen's Mom Well-Known Member

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    I suppose it could have been the kibble but who knows. That is just plain unexpected. Not sure what to tell you. How about increasing back to 1.6u and see what she does?
     
  23. Panic

    Panic Member

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    Apr 10, 2019
    Okay. I'll keep her at 1.4 tonight and get a late reading in just for kicks since I don't want to increase in PM cycle then bump back up in the morning. Thank you Linda.
     
  24. Panic

    Panic Member

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    @MrWorfMen's Mom if we weren't already confused... 1.4u last night, 359 PMPS. Tested at +6 and she was 215. This morning I was going to do 1.6u but she tested 189.
     
  25. MrWorfMen's Mom

    MrWorfMen's Mom Well-Known Member

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    OYEEE! Panic you are a puzzle! I wonder if that is the contraband finally being out of her system. Some cats take longer than others to clear those high carbs.

    Are you able to check Panic mid cycle today? If so then I'd stick to the 1.4u. If not, since you haven't shot a blue for awhile with anything other than a VERY reduced dose, I'd shoot 1u. In either case, leave food for her to eat as needed.
     
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2019
  26. Panic

    Panic Member

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    I know!! That little booger is really waiting last minute to throw me off for this trip! I did give her 1.2 because I was really unsure how much to give, I'm about to leave for groceries but I'm planning on being back by +3 to test.
     
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  27. Noah & me (GA)

    Noah & me (GA) Well-Known Member

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    Dec 3, 2016
    This is what I did when I boarded Noah plus a few extra thoughts.
    >If your friend is comfortable with this give her access to the board and hopefully a few people that will reply to her. Cut the lingo and speak in plain English.
    >As with others I won't give dosing advice and Noah was on Caninsulin. What I did do was cut Noah's PM dose to 2/3. The reasoning was that Noah was unregulated, bounced and always ran high. There was no in between, he either ran high or flirted with HYPO. Higher numbers in the short term are easier to deal with than one sleepless night of near HYPO.
    >Strangers, kids, and dogs. Noah ran into the basement when the wind blew so I can't guess what Panic's behavior will be. I respected the vet who boarded Noah but to his staff I was just another talking head. I took the lead tech aside and read her a polite version of the riot act, inspected his kennel and asked about noise levels and dim lighting. Noah was beyond nervous and I half expected a 12 year old cat not to make it. The vet understood when I gave him a cat version of a DNR. This is not meant to scare you, just to make you think of every possible scenario and what it will take to make Panic as comfortable as possible.
    >In the end I caught an early flight home fighting back tears, I had an agreement with the vet not to be notified. There was Noah as calm as I'd ever seen him and a 1/2 pound heavier. My primary vet doesn't board so this all happened at my backup vet. Boarding seems to get a bad reputation but it worked for me.
    We all deserve a vacation, cut the guilt and think positive thoughts.
     
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  28. Panic

    Panic Member

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    Apr 10, 2019
    Whooo 60 at +3.5 !
     
  29. MrWorfMen's Mom

    MrWorfMen's Mom Well-Known Member

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  30. Panic

    Panic Member

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    Thank you so much Dickson! I have already set up a second account w/ signature for my friend to use here if needed and gave her the login details and a quick run-down of using 911 flair, etc.
    Panic unfortunately is not a very friendly kitty - definitely the type to run and hide the second a visitor comes. I'm going to advice my friend to give her maybe a special room to stay in if she feels better separated. That is so sweet about Noah being alright when you got back, I totally relate to not wanting to know while on vacation. I really wish my vet had a boarding situation, I called around and there was only one place that accepted diabetic cats...would have been $350 and while I've used them before I hesitate to think they'd be willing to not only accept her auto feeder (they refuse any personal items like blankets/toys) but even feed her throughout the night etc.
    I like the cutting PM dose to 2/3, I'm going to keep that idea in mind. I plan on texting my friend every day to get her PS numbers so that's a good suggestion if needed.

    ----

    +4 is 82 after giving her a little bite. :) Linda, do you think this means she should stay at 1.4u both now and during my trip? If she does need a hair more juice but we also are recommended to lower for trips, would 1.4 be good? I know I don't leave til Friday and a lot can happen between then lol.
     
  31. MrWorfMen's Mom

    MrWorfMen's Mom Well-Known Member

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    She will be in a strange environment even if she knows your friend well. We usually suggest a small reduction for vacation time because many cats won't eat quite as well as they do in their usual surroundings and their normal routine disrupted to some degree. I'm thinking maybe 1.2u right now, but let's see what she does in the next day or so although she may bounce after seeing that green again too. :rolleyes:
    I know when I went away, I left my friend an epistle of instructions but I still stayed in touch everyday twice a day for dosing instructions just in case. I felt better and I'm sure my friend did too.
     
  32. Red & Rover (GA)

    Red & Rover (GA) Well-Known Member

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    A special room would be a good idea even at the beginning of her stay. She can acclimatize safely, smelling and hearing what's what and who's who.
     
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  33. Panic

    Panic Member

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    Apr 10, 2019
    She did bounce last night and this morning was down to 235. :)

    Haha yes, I made this little brochure with all basic FAQs and vet numbers and insulin prep guides but then I was like no, I need more space! So I also make a 6 page spiral bound book with BG test instructions and all kinds of stuff XD She'll be a pro overnight LOL.
     
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  34. MrWorfMen's Mom

    MrWorfMen's Mom Well-Known Member

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    Love it! Don't forget to provide vet telephone # and let vet know that she is sitting and has permission to make treatment decisions in your absence. Not that she'll need any of this BUT I am a firm believer in being ahead of Murphy! ;)
     
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  35. Panic

    Panic Member

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    Apr 10, 2019
    Yes! I mentioned it to the vet assistant last week when I took my dachshund in for her cytopoint shot. Said they didn't even need my CC number, they would just call me and work it out. :) Knock on wood of course!
     
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