group thought?

because Rebecca is going to be changing the 'sticky' situation, can anyone either agree/disagree that the 'please read BEFORE you post' on the pzi info sticky be taken off. don't know about you all but i came here stressed, nervouse and in no mood to read an encyclopedia before i posted and got the human contact and support for tom and myself. it might be a good reference for when you have time and desire to read it but it should not be mandatory or even suggested that folks read it before posting.
come on...who's gonna read all of that before really wanting to post.
when we get here we are in survival mode, not research mode.
i don't like the direction the room takes when it is expected you be a scholar to post...or even that you should understand before you post. is'nt that what WE are there for?

 

AGREE!! I did some research before finding the message board, but I didn't read a lot of that info before I posted. I read as I went along. I think most people would be the same way. I also would suggest that the "experienced users only" clause on the isg main page be removed. I think newbies should be allowed to come to an isg before being invited. It's a "support group" for goodness sake! Who in the world needs support more than a newly dx'd bean?!?!

 

I have to admit, I glanced at it, but then posted anyway, because I too was stressed and needed an answer. I did go back and look thru it all later

-donna and asher

 

Well Claudia I think there is actually a good reason for that. Maybe a couple of good reasons.
In a small room like ours sure a brand new out of the womb newbie can be treated like they would on health. Info like testing, diet etc is something we can teach in a room this size. On the other paw, becuase of the size of our room the support is not always here. Starting out in health for a week or three is a good idea. And believe me there are plenty of experienced insulin people there who do not like posting on isg's for various reasons.
And don't even get me started on the bigger isg rooms. They really cannot be bothered to walk a newbie thru the basics 101. They will usually invite them to go right on over to health and get that warm welcome and good start they need.
Health is really a good, busier, and more newbie oriented room for the beginners. If they have a pzi question someone can't answer they immediatly come on over here and post a link.
But yes, I am not one to read first and ask questions later and I'm guessing I'm not the only one. Don't want a newbie on pzi to feel 'less than' becuase they don't want to read first...don't know the jargon, and don't know the insulin inside and out. We learn as we go...this is not a college course, it's one bean helping another bean.

 

What Donna said. :mrgreen:

 

I agree.

 

I'm the opposite. I don't like to post unless I have an understanding of the environment and a better idea of what to ask. I really hate posting something just to have an avalanche of insider knowledge/politics blindside me. I came here knowing that my vet didn't know everything but knew more than I did. I don't know what "you" knew so I didn't know whether the advice heard here had merit, let alone more merit, than my very capable veterinarian.

Just some food for thought....

 

Oh, for what it is worth... I have never been to the "Health" forum because, orginally, the sheer volume of posts was overwhelming but subsequently, I wondered if a "generic" poster really understood what I was dealing with.

Now I know that most likely the information is valid/accurate but as a newbie, no way would I trust it.

Again.. another two plinks in the pot....

$0.02....

 

Excellent point dragon, the post could say "PZI info, start here or jump in and ask questions' that way there is room for both types of people.

 

Cindy if you read a thread somewhere on community called 'who was your first responder' you'll see hundreds of us posted affectionately about our first days here and the one's who jumped in first.
It's like a first kiss....you never forget your first responder.
I know Sue and Oliver do the majority of that now...back when I joined it was Cindy and Mousie. I just knew instictively they knew what they were talking about. They told me to bring back the PM food and Glipizide I was sold at the vet and get a script for PZI. They kinda had me at 'hello'

 

Well I'm obviously in Dragonnns camp. For various reasons I was very mistrusting of the info here too [and time has not helped that].

I think "encyclopedia" is quite hyperbolic. It takes all of about 5 minutes [max] to blast though the Newbie Checklist and I'm not saying that because I know the material. The request is that they read it not understand it. Maybe many people get too hung up on lingo because they read phonetically whereas if they read linguistically they have to deal with words they don't know and to put them into context later. So maybe there is a way to approach those who have a hard time with jargon?? I have tried at every step to address the jargon in the Newbie Checklist and take suggestions on that. I'm open to more. Also if they read it they will understand what to do if they have an emergency rather than waiting for our little motley group to be able to handle it in time. I just don't see how reading the newbie checklist is a problem here. Maybe we should say "please at least SCAN before posting" or something like that.

Lastly, the reading here [all the reading on the board] is critical to success. The whole process is about learning as much info as possible and synthesizing that and applying it to the specific situation of the cat and bean. There is no one size fits all and thus synthesis is critical. Often what one person recommends is not right - simply because they are not there with the cat.

I think that since we have asked people to read the Sticky BEFORE they post we have had way less questions about where to get PZI or how much it costs or any of the basic material offered in the sticky [except for the links which are not mostly not basics]. Before when the info was there and we did not ask they read it we were still getting a lot of those questions. I'm not saying people shouldn't ask those questions of they have them, but it cuts down on them having to ask the question because it has not been asked to read it. If we are getting complaints from newbies then those really need to be raised. Kristen was instrumental in raising a huge issue when she came on about one of the items in the newbie checklist. ;-)

And I disagree that Health is a good place for the PZI newbie for the reasons that are known about my positions on things. At least here they will find safe harbor and help with their current sitch and not made to feel worse about their sitch. Anyway, I don't need to go on about this well-worn path.

I did not post on this board for dosing advice because I did not want to hear it. This is probably why my approach frequently differs from many of the old schoolers. My first posts were primarily concerned with dispelling the PZI is ending myth. :roll: After a discussion with one of the mods here a while back in PZI I think the suggestion was that PZI people who didn't want to hear it should say so or maybe put something in their signature. :lol: Kind of sad. Things turned out really well for us. So I'm not suggesting that people not post or ask for dosing advice, I'm just suggesting that if people did the reading they might be able to avoid some crazy here and get faster results. One of my goals with the Newbie Checklist was to help people who want to avoid getting preached to.

PZI is not Health but thankfully we are currently able to field basic questions. Things were not looking as bright a few months ago and might change in the future.

Finally, I'm 100% open to changing the Sticky title. I'm just voicing my opinion.

 

:lol: gator i could'nt even read all that! true if you don't open each link you put up it's not an encylopedia phonetically or otherwise...but if you open the links..which is i'm supposing is why they are there it becomes an encyclopedia.
just don't let newbie's think it's something they should read and or know before posting is all.
i like my information handed to me in short sentences not novels, and easy to understand.
honestly, you can take something so simple and when your done with it my head is spinning gator...i always tell you that. simple language. we are not stupid, we just don't want to talk in incredibly over the top language and length when a simple how many points did you cat drop would do. kwim?

 

The reading that is recommended for Newbie is explicitly set forth in the Newbie Checklist. If need/advised I will gladly edit the Checklist to be firm that they do not need to immediately read/scan or other any of the advanced, nutrition or other links. I would suggest reading it and you might discover it is not quite the monster you take it for.

About the reading - it is a marathon and not a sprint.

Peoples' pets deserve more than grunts and short Twitter 140 character thoughts. There are no "right" answers here. Nuance, thoroughness and thoughtfulness are important too.

 

ok gator, there is room for everyone here. if you talk over peoples heads or at great length you may lose some of them...but some may love you for it. and the other's may go for the 'grunts' and 'twitter' like responses...as if you've ever seen those here! honestly!

 

and we don't 'expect' anything from the newbie's. who are we??? we give what we can, compassion is as much a part of it as technical support...sometimes more.

 

I should stay out of this but .... I am a newbie who read everything before I posted but because
my cat was dying of DKA at the time, most of it didn't stick. When I did post here I was told to go
to Health because even though I use PZI, I didn't fit into certain perimeters. I now only post in health
although I do read this forum. Even when newbies do read ... the emotions are so high with such sick
animals, we are just looking for a life preserver.

 

Thank you Nancy - your input IS appreciated. Did you find that the request to read the PZI Sticky before you posted interfered with you getting help in the way you needed it?

I think another issue with Health is that as long as one says they are using "PZI" and not "ProZinc" they are likely to get more help. :roll:

Well I'm probably hoggin' the convo here but I think there is room for all of our styles [especially in PZI]. I have a certain style and I think the success of the kitties here depends on everyone coming together and voicing their encyclopedias and Twitters. Some people respond to Twitters and some to encyclopedias.

I don't think I've ever critiqued anyone here [in public] for the brevity of their response. And then only the ones that suggest the insulin change thing without painting a fuller picture.

I'll ask that the PZI Sticky be changed to say "scan/read" instead of just read unless we can come up with a better suggestion.

 

maybe just leave out the capitalized BEFORE is all...it makes it stand out and seem more of an order instead of a request. how's that?

 

Or both

[youtube]T8jvEJngh4M[/youtube]

There's a place for Country and Rock 'n Roll here.

 

Not sure if I can follow South Park but here goes. I did read all the stickys, all of them but when
I found all of you, my cat was dying.

The emotions the newbie feels are overwhelming and it is only now, three months later with a cat
that is doing well but still with high numbers, that I am going back and re-reading lot's of stuff.

The first thing that I do remember about this group is you must be an experienced caretaker to post,
what does that mean? And by the time I become one of those, I won't need to post .... seems you are
telling newbies we are here for you but not at this moment because you don't know enough?? BUT it
is at this precise moment we need you, the people who are using the insulin we am using.

I went back to re-read this sticky and there it is right at the top, newbies not welcome .....
you must be an experienced caretaker. So I am a newbie, I need help, you all use the insulin I give
my cat but I can't post because I am not experienced enough ..... so we go to Health, and hopefully
some of the nice people there take to us, help us but USUALLY they are not using our insulin.

Even now, with my Payne doing well and everything I've learned, IT IS A LOT TO TAKE IN!!!! and my
emotions are not revving in total fear at this moment like they were before. Just the basic concept
that the vet you trust may not be giving you good information, is hard to get by. Then the great
food you have been feeding, is totally wrong, and it goes on and on and on .....

I have been lucky, I did not get lost in Health because I wrote and wrote until someone responded
and I could begin to learn because people there took the time to guide me, for which I am
forever thankful. But I knew the answers were here somewhere but how many people leave? I believe
if I would have left, Payne would be dead now, I firmly believe that. And lot's of people here have
helped, so I am not gripping, I just thought a newbie should jump in, now I'll jump out.

 

Nancy, please note these are the words of the Webmaster Rebecca not me or others in PZI. You will note her edit in blue. You point to this chicken & egg precisely in her unannounced edits. Maybe there is some liability reason she did this, I don't know. As far as I go, newbies are welcome here in PZI, but I cannot overrule or change her words. And they should post in Health too if they are not getting answers in the ISGs. Thank you for pointing this out. I encourage everyone to read, read, read, trust little [here or anywhere], ask the difficult questions and make their own decisions.

Usually 'they' have used PZI [PZI Vet or BCP] which is very similar to ProZinc. I've noted how some like to talk negatively about "what they have seen" of ProZinc without having actually tried it or trying to learn advising for it. So that is why I say to ask for help with "PZI" and not "ProZinc." One of the problems is I'm the only regular here that has both success with PZI and ProZinc. And I think they are both very similar [maybe even unnoticeably different]. You should ask your specialist at the certain institution about his views of the similarity between PZI Vet and ProZinc. Though I disagreed with much of the diabetes advice I got there, I think he is probably one of the more knowledgeable about PZI vs ProZinc. There is a clear bias towards other insulins here - so you have to measure where you are getting your advice from. Just like IMHO there is a bias towards PZI at that institution. The other insulins are great too and very appropriate in many situations, just unfortunately the bias infects the advice too much here. PZI was the right choice for us, but is absolutely not for everyone. One just has to take the source into consideration always.

South Park is that there's room here for varying styles and those styles together is what makes us better. Just trying to have a light hearted kumbaya moment. :smile:

 

The most important thing for me when I first joined this board (when I was in a similar boat to Nancy in that Sam had just gone though DKA) was the responses I got to my posts, not anything I read. At that point, I was reading, but I didn't have the practical knowledge of daily experience to understand a lot of it. At that point, it was just a lot of info. A LOT of info. And I wasn't about processing info then so much as I was about finding out what the best thing I could do for Sam in that moment was.

I wanted to know what dose I should be giving him, not read an essay on nutrition, you know what I mean? The newbie info eventually became helpful, but never as helpful as the responses other members gave me.

All those stickies are overwhelming. I know from running another forum (with approx 4k members) that people almost always ask questions before they read stickies. It's human nature to want answers right away and to be given those answers as opposed to digging for them ourselves. There's something much more soothing about getting a response to your post in 5 or 10 minutes from someone else who's been through what you're going through vs. reading long, sometimes confusing threads full of info you're not even sure applies to your situation.

 

I agree with you Kristen. But I am guessing you are right brained like me, my left brain barely twitches. I am numbers challenged. I can absorb tech if it pertains to something I care about and if I am not too stressed.
This board I am sure sees lots of both kinds of people, left and right brained, so prob has to have something for all.

You guys are the best. Keep on keepin on! xoxoxoxox

-Donna and Asher

 

I have been reading this thread with great interest. I am one of those people who hate conflict and just want "everyone to get along"....

I hang out on Health because I really feel for newbies who are so overwhelmed and scared. I try to make my first post easy - just "we have this protocol that works - wet lo carb and insulin and hometesting and we would love to help you help your cat" with a few urls to look at. IMHO, I think there is no way to avoid the idea that newbies have to do some reading and research. I do see some urging for a specific insulin sometimes but not often. I think it is just that people are so excited when things start to work, they want everyone to have that experience so they figure it is going to happen with their insulin.

Gator, I think the PZI information here is great. I do think it is best used to answer a specific question. I like that you can provide the url when someone asks "what do I do with this low amps number?" or a question like that. I think it might be best if it didn't say Read before First Post. That may be intimidating as it is a long document with a lot of (wonderful) information and it might overwhelm someone who is just trying to decide whether to give 10 units of insulin or not! I feel the same way about the stickies on Lantus; I think they would be overwhelming to most newbies.

There is no way around it - there is a lot of information that needs to be digested by a newbie and in enough of a hurry to protect the cat. I help newbies with spreadsheets because I think that is complicated but necessary. I am concerned that newbies are not only overwhelmed by information, but by the technology of the site. I do think Rebecca is trying to make the whole site less intimidating by asking newbies to go to Health first. That way, they can get some general info and get their basic, first question answered - if not by the first responder, then by the second or third......

Don't know if that helps any.......

 

Sue as the resident newbie first responder I feel your input is of the most importance. There I go with that word "feel". The very first time I met Gator (Who by the way is a friend, still I hope?) I said 'we are woman, your are a man...you don't get it!" in response to a post going on about my wanting to shoot a cat who was terrorizing Tom.
First impressions...still the same.
The Feelings here are a tremendous resource to a newbie. If all they wanted was info they could just google it and never even come to a message board. The first thing I'm guessing a grand majority of beans want is 'contact'. You see it all the time with posts literally screaming for HELP or the crying tone in so many posts. They are comforted to know we care. That we can 'walk them thru'
That aspect of who we are can never be seen as something you have to earn by reading information before accessing us.

 

.........

 

I will take out 'before' and take a day to try to come up with something creative.

Even it is just "PZI STICKY: Please scan/read - newbies & oldbies! Links/info"

Now taking creative submissions too.

Beth your brief response there actually made great sense to me. :smile:

Sue, a little bit to your point I love the Sticky as having something to point to as well. A) it is established material and it is something we all basically agree with [hopefully at this point??] for the issues it addresses. Also I thought it was really great when it was in draft form and a newbie or two started to actually ask about "no shoot" proactively rather than after the fact.

 

Gator the work itself is wonderful, fantastic. It was the read BEFORE you post that I felt uncomfortable with. I am certainly glad it's there. And it will be used countless times. Just not on day 1, or 2 or even 3 for that matter.

 

Rebecca,
In your edit of the PZI Sticky here:
viewtopic.php?f=24&t=32799
you state

"only" I think being the primary word of concern in that sentence. As a point of reference the main Lantus sticky does point people to Health without saying it is only for experienced users.

Lori,
Yes the work is wonderful and fantastic and it was only though the input and help of many here that it was accomplished. It's a good team effort.

 

you are kidding, right? This is possibly the most consistently rude and disrespectful I have ever seen anyone on this board be to the woman who owns this website and provides it for anyone in need of help with feline diabetes.

Do you have absolutely no respect? Do you need to be told how to behave in someone else's home?

 

Can everyone be nice please? I think we are trying to refine the wording of everything to give newbies the best help and best experience here that we can, which I think is a good thing. I can't speak for anyone else, but as far as I know we are all on the same side, and all trying to help newbies as well as everyone else. There may be some semantics to be ironed out, or sticky revisions we may want to consider (I thought stickies were going away anyhow? guess I'll have to reread that...), maybe after a cooling off period. ohmygod_smile

 

I am puzzled by the idea that newbies should post in Health because the demands of PZI ISG can cause people to leave. My experience has been quite the opposite. I can't really remember how I got from Heath to PZI, but once I did, I found the group to be responsive, supportive, and compassionate---quick to answer my questions even when I asked things that I could have found by myself in the stickys. I am glad that I was too overwhelmed to read the stickys---so I did not see that it said the forum was only for experienced users ! That might well have intimidated me and maybe I would not have posted, and would have missed out on all the invaluable help I got from this forum (most especially from Gator and Robin ). And I don't think that taking out the word "only" would have made the difference. It seems to me that it is helpful for newbies to come to PZI ASAP. What could be better than getting advice from people much more experienced than yourself in your particular insulin? If you wait till you are experienced to post, then you probably are much less in need of the advice! Unless you are thinking that the PZI forum should be primarily for difficult hard to figure out patterns?

 

Judy when I joined fdmb like 4 years ago I think the ISG forums were a fairly new addition.
The idea was to get your basics in health.
A lot of folks, myself included, not even having made the decision to shoot.
I had not yet been given a script or even knew that was a realistic option. I did'nt know a single thing about fd. I had ALOT to learn. I thought it was a death sentence.
Sooooo, if your a newbie out of the womb (my little phrase) meaning your just dx'd without a vet's advice on food, testing, even how to test, what can happen when you switch to a diabetic diet, and the kinds of things that don't always involve using insulin...those are the folks who needed a room like health. they need to be calmed down and told they can help their kitty. It really is that basic.
Unless you hang around with newbie's on health you might not realize the type of help and support they get there.
And i can assure you that altho' pzi may be able to do it, it's not gonna happen on lantus or lev or the other ISG rooms.
Long story short, Health is a good start if your really really new. If you already are shooting...and testing, I guess this would be the next indicated step. isg's were supposed to be insulin support groups and not the welcome to the world of fd groups.
Things have changed since then...but that was the standard and it was good.

 

Lori,
Conceivably if said newbie didn't have a script for PZI that newbie will not be in PZI [but we would still welcome them with open arms].

I'm not going to object to what Lev or Lan ISGs do - that would be crazy talk. :lol:

Many of the helpers in Health are cautious about giving dosing advice on ProZinc. So where are they going to get input on this insulin if not PZI?

To your point about "they need to be calmed down and told they can help their kitty," I agree and IMHO the last thing they need to be told when they first show up is that they should change insulins [or myriad of the other less direct ways it is addressed] which is a Health de rigueur. It was pretty clear when I was new that Health was not going to be the place I felt comfortable seeking PZI input in. Maybe that's something that has changed in 4 years?

I also think for the continuation of PZI and the progress of PZI users it is important [and perhaps vital] to have newbies in PZI. It helps put things into perspective and provides good peer assistance and catalyzes growth. We are learning from each other, this is not a top-down process. The process is a continuum.

There might be a point where PZI cannot handle newbies - I don't know. Today it seems OK and it seem fairly healthy to me - but maybe I'm not seeing things with proper perspective.

 

I agree with Lori. There are lots of newbies that arrive with a vet telling them they should feed dry and/or prescription food and come back in a month for a curve at the vet. They need the basics, explained often and clearly and with patience. I don't think that is likely to be done here, because we just don't have enough people and they can't be here at all hours during the day. The other insulin support group that may have enough people is Lantus, but they are dealing with dose questions from at least 20 or most posters a day, and don't have the time/manpower either.

Once the basics are done - hometesting (maybe after many posts with ideas and reassurance and maybe a visit from a member who lives nearby) and diet change (sometimes after many ideas on brands and flavors of food) and a spreadsheet (often done with help) - no question that a insulin support group is the place to be.

Allie is a great example of this. Although she did all the prework on her own, she is here ready to absorb advice about different ways to dose PZI.

Gator, I know you get unhappy sometimes with the posts on Health. I post there daily and I can tell you that the posters who advise an insulin change (without being asked first) are few and far between. Just doesn't happen much.

I think there is a definite place for both kinds of forums and I do think they meet very different needs.

 

Gator if there is a question about dosing that a pzi user is not dealing with on health (and yes alot of us hang out on health) than it is quickly linked to our page...no one does or should give dosing advice other than the basics on health...for example..you got your insulin and the vet says 3u bid not testing? STOP, 1u bid and get that testing equipement.
Not dealing with the womb newbie's Gator as Sue and I often have you don't realize the level they come in here at. And frankly :lol: you of all people are NOT the first person they should talk too :lol:
You laughed at my.....most horrid moment of my life once...remember? I won't even mention it here!
Hang out on Health and start working with the real fresh one's and see if you think they are ready to read your work and listen to your explatations. Many of these folks are on the ledge as it is...and this is no put down of them. My god their babies are dying (or so they believe) and I was one of them! Back then it was very clear cut. the isg's talked dosing, the health talked you thru your black days getting started and a wealth of other health issue's.
If things have changed so be it...try spending a week working with newbie's on health and see. People like Sue and others are Angels that will never be forgotten by some beans. I still get pm's from beans I don't even know thanking me for 'all my support'.
I think, you want a newbie,,,go over to health...you ARE NEEDED THERE!