HELP 10u ProZinc

Hello,

I am brand new to both this site and feline diabetes, and am feeling a bit overwhelmed by it all. I have a few questions and would be most appreciative of any advice you can give me!

My Meatball is about a year and a half old, and was diagnosed with diabetes at the end of December. Looking back I believe he was showing symptoms for quite a while before that, and I just didn't realize what was happening.

In the beginning of August, Meatball got a UTI. I took him to the vet, who prescribed antibiotics. At that point weighed in at a whopping 17.5 lbs. He is a 'big boned' cat, but he was certainly a bit chubby, too. So, in addition to the antibiotics, which were given as a one time slow release shot, I left the vet with a bag of diet cat food for Meatball, and his litter mate, Boss to share to help them lose a few lbs. At this point, Meatball started to lose weight, and I thought the food was having the desired effect. However, Boss was NOT losing any weight, in fact, he was GAINING weight on the diet food. Honestly, I remember thinking this was weird, but Meatball did not seem at all sick, he was very playful, and acting like his crazy self. It was only in November when I looked at him, and looked at Boss, and could see there had to be five lbs difference between them, when I realized something was not right. At this point, they were also due for vaccinations, so I made an appointment with my parents vet in upstate NY.

While at the appointment, the vet told me that had I not told him that Meatball had lost so much weight - he was down to 12 lbs, a healthy weight for a cat of his size - he would never have known anything was wrong, as Meatball was his usual curious, friendly self. So, he did a complete blood work up, and discovered that Meatball's BG level was 500! He was somewhat surprised and said he had not seen a cat this young with Diabetes before.

At this point, the vet prescribed Glipizide, 2.5mg 2x/day. I got started with this and a new diet, Hill's m/d food. He told me to have Meatball back at the vet in 3 weeks to be retested.

At this point I started doing tons of research about Feline Diabetes - which I really knew NOTHING about. I learned the benefits of home testing, went out to CVS to get a meter and started testing regularly. He was consistantly testing around 200-225 and it seemed that the Glipizide was working. However, I was noticing real changes in Meatballs activity & strength level and the amount he was drinking and urinating. These things were not changing in accord with the lower BG readings.

So, back to the vet I went. This time, to a new vet in Washington, DC, where I live. A few more tests later, we discovered that the BG meter I had been using was not calibrated properly for cats, something I had never considered, and Meatball's BG again tested at 500. We also know that his thyroid is working just fine. The new vet decided to stop the Glipizide and Hill's m/d and start a regimen of Purina DM and ProZinc Insulin. I left with a bunch of new supplies, and was excited that Meatball would soon be feeling better! We started at 3 units 2x/day. I purchased an AlphaTRAK meter, and began testing before giving the insulin, 2x/day. This is where things get even crazier... 3 units seemed to have no effect. To make a long story short, I have been increasing the dosage every few days all month long, and am now up to 10 units 2x/day (20 units total), which seems like a really huge amount from the information I have been able to find. But let me show you why by giving a snap shot of some of his more recent BG test results:

FEB 01 9:00am 526 8u
FEB 01 7:45pm 178 8u
FEB 02 8:00am 590 8u
FEB 02 7:45pm 570 9u
FEB 03 7:45am 65 8u
FEB 03 9:30pm 505 9u
FEB 04 7:45am 461 9u
FEB 04 9:30pm 545 9u
FEB 05 8:00am 584 9u
FEB 05 8:00pm 394 10u
FEB 06 8:00am 702 10u
FEB 06 8:45pm 618 10u

Is it just me, or is this crazy?

Meatball is more active in general. He was kind of weak after the weight loss, but he does seem stronger now. He still drinks lots of water, and urinates frequently. It's just not adding up! I know that all cats are different, but how much insulin is too much? Is the insulin just not working? Are there any other treatment options?

I will try to bring him back to the vet early next week, or at the very east give her a call to see what she thinks about this, but I would love to hear from people who have been in a similar situation!

Thanks so much for reading this crazy story, and thank you in advance for any help you can provide!

Best,
Molly

 

Re: Mysterious Meatball

Hi Molly
I am new on this board and my cat isn't even on insulin but from everything I have seen so far the knowledgeable people here are probably going to tell you that you may be giving to much insulin and that you should have started much lower.
In reality I am just jabbering....please wait till the insulin gurus see your message and start responding.
YOU HAVE COME TO THE RIGHT PLACE!

PS You might want to edit your title saying something about I NEED HELP!!!

 

HELP 10u/ProZinc

I agree, please edit your subject line: HELP 10u ProZinc will help catch attention

has ur vet tested Meatball for Acromegaly?

Going to link your thread to the High Dose forum for back up

 

TY! - How do you get to the "High Dose" Forum?

 

u might want to stick around here in the health board for now - we have alerts in the High Dose, PZI forum and the Community board to get u some attention...the High Dose forum right now is a little quiet.

hang around here ok? Others will come by to help.

 

hello there and welcome

personally my gut says you were started at too high of a dose so you might have missed the ideal dose and what you are doing now is actually overdosing, causing rebound buttttttttttttttttt by chance do you have any other numbers from thruout the day? or if not, could you try to do that tomorrow if you are home? try to get numbers roughly every two hours. that would help see what is truly going on.

btw, that 8 units on that really low number (february 3rd) nearly stopped my heart. did the vet ever tell you what are normal numbers or what number not to shoot at? just so you know, 65 is towards low normal so you never want to shoot a number like that on this insulin.

i'm hoping some of the medical people or high dose people come along because i am curious as to their thoughts on a kitty so young possibly having another condition that indeed would require these large doses

 

Hi Molly,
Is the DM dry or canned?
Your dose was pretty high at start, I suspect too high. Your cat is awful young to be diabetic in the first place, though it's not entirely unheard of.
Alphatrak.. I don't have a politically correct answer about what you were told that it wasn't calibrated for animals. Blood is blood. Probably 99.7% of us are using human meters. The alphatrak is just another abuse of human caregivers already stretched to their financial limit. Your other meter was more than likely fine and you can return to it at any time.
Testing. We'd need more tests to find out what's going on. I recommend that you start back over at 1u BID because I think his dose may be lower. An overdosed cat will have numbers increasing much like yours. In order to do this safely, I'd recommend you pick up ketostix or ketodiastix so you can keep an eye out for ketones in his urine as a preventative measure.
(((hugs)))
..Carolyn

 

Re: Mysterious Meatball

Hi Molly,

While some might go directly to the thought that Meatball might have acromegaly or some other high dose condition-- viewtopic.php?f=12&t=375 --I am going to go the other direction and suggest that you might be overdosing your cat.

An old standard for treating a diabetic cat is "start low, go slow." "Low" usually involves starting at 1U twice a day (BID), and slow usually involves waiting 10-14 days before upping the dose, and doing that in 1/4 or 1/2 unit increases.

Too high a dose of insulin can result in chronic rebound. A discussion from the Pets with Diabetes wiki http://petdiabetes.wikia.com/wiki/Rebound.

I also note that on February 3, Meatball was 65 when you gave him 8 units. 65 is a DO NOT SHOOT number on PZI. Perhaps this is a typo, but if it is not, that shows that Meatball responds to the insulin. That is, he is not insulin resistant, adding more evidence to my suspicion that he is being overdosed.

You have done a fabulous job treating Meatball. You learned early on the single best thing you could do for Meatball--hometesting blood glucose.

If this were my cat, I would do four things.

(1) Start posting daily with his numbers to get help from the numerous people here on the Board. You can post here on Health or in the PZI forum. viewforum.php?f=24.

(2) Start over with the insulin at 1U BID.

(3) Test his urine daily (or more frequently) for ketones. A cat running numbers this high is at danger of developing ketones, which could end up in a medical crisis--diabetic ketoacidosis (DKA) http://petdiabetes.wikia.com/wiki/DKA

(4) Transition Meatball to a low-carb, wet food diet. You don't say whether the DM he is getting is the wet or dry. Many of us use a commercial (not prescription) food such as Wellness, Iams, Fancy Feast, or Friskies. This page has links to two tables of nutritional values for wet food. We usually recommend something that is 10% or less in carbs.

Best of luck, Molly, and scritches to Meatball.

Venita

 

mine too!

 

Welcome to FDMB --

I'm from the High Dose area - my Norton had a special condition called Acromegaly causing Insulin Resistance - aka - he needed a high dose of insulin to control his diabetes.

We can help you figure out what is going on with Meatball.

You need to check his blood sugar in the middle of the cycle - like 6 or 8 hours after injection, to see what affect the insulin is having.

Blood sugar naturally goes up and down all day long.
Things that make it go up: food, stress, illness, poor dental health / gum disease
Things that make it go down: exercise, insulin (both naturally made by the pancreas and injected)
Testing is important to know that it is safe to inject, and also to check the dose is not sending him too low later in the day.

With ProZinc, I would estimate that the low point would be between 6 and 9 hours after injection. I have not used ProZinc which is NEW, but did use the older PZI formulation from BCP.


You need to check his urine for Ketones as a painful condition can flare up requiring hospitalization - Diabetic Keto-acidosis. This can occur when the blood sugar is high.

 

Wow, this is great information, thank you! I am doing some reading from the links you all have sent, but wanted to answer some of your questions and ask a couple more of my own.

First, I feed Meatball dry DM, it seems wet is better though? Why is that? As a general note, since December when he was diagnosed, he has ALWAYS been a very good eater. 1/4-1/2 cup of dry food at each meal.

Second, I did a curve a week ago on JAN 30, and this is the result of that:
8:45am 627 gave8u
10:45am 402
12:45pm 276
3:15pm 472
6:00pm 614
8:00pm 511 gave 8u

I can do another tomorrow if that would be helpful for you all to see.

Third, if I am overdosing him, and I should start again at 1u, should i just give him 1u tomorrow, or do i need to gradually move back down to a lower dose?

And Fourth, my human BG meter was truly not working correctly. It could have been that specific meter, but it was off by nearly 50%. I actually took it with me to the vet, and seconds after she drew blood, I did a test from Meatball's ear. My result was 225, the vet came back with over 500. It could have been a cheapo meter?? Just a CVS brand. I would love to have one that uses less expensive strips... if you have suggestions of specific models that are more reliable and have less expensive strips, that would be great.

 

On the meter front, maybe it was just that meter. I have tested a one touch against my vets and been very close. I've tested subsequent meters to that one and the variable is within normal variance acceptance (all meters can vary to lab testing....I think it is 25%?) However if you have the alpha track, like it and have strips, no reason not to use it. Other wise, you can trust other meters. They are largely for gathering trend data.

You don't have to wait to bring a dose down. You *do* have to be a little patient, especially *if* this has been too much insulin and your kitty was in rebound (that's where the body defends itself against too much insulin by dumping it's own glucagon into the blood. That keeps these really high blood glucose numbers. One day it will come crashing down though, if so, and it won't be a good thing) it may take a few days to see what is really going on. The dry food will also keep blood glucose levels high. HOwever, lets kind of see what is going on before you start to switch over. At least you are already testing! That is HUGE and will help greatly.

 

For this one, I will give you another link, to Dr. Lisa's website. http://catinfo.org/. Dr. Lisa is a vet and one of our resident nutritionists. Cats are obligate (strict) carnivores. Think about what a cat would eat in the wild--mice, voles, birds, lizards, and then look at the ingredient list on your dry food. Wet food gets much closer to a cat's natural food. Also, cats are desert animals and do not have a thirst drive. They need to get their water in their food. Dry food is dehydrating.

But be careful with a food change. A switch off dry often leads to a drastic reduction in blood glucose number and insulin needs. The dry food is likely doing a lot to protect Meatball from the effects of overdose. You need to cut the dose before you change the food. Also, it may take several weeks or even months to transition a cat to wet food. Some are real dry food holdouts. Dr. Lisa's site discusses transition.

You are getting a curve (as opposed to a flat line). More evidence that Meatball responds to insulin. I would think that tomorrow you don't need to do a full curve. Maybe just a couple spot checks, say at +4 and +6.

By the way, +# is how we refer to time in the 12 hour cycle between shots. For example, your curve would read.

AMPS (morning preshot) 627 gave8u
+2 402
+4 276
+6.5 472
+9.25 614
PMPS (evening preshot) 511 gave 8u

Excellent question. With the idea being to go back to the beginning, then you would go straight to 1U. It may take a couple of days for his body to adjust to the lower dose and to clear the biochemicals that have resulted from the overdosing. That's why the ketone testing is especially important right now.

I am sure someone has a link to past studies of various meters. I don't have that link. I use the One Touch Ultra, but the strips are pricey. I get my strips at auction on EBay. I also use the Maxima, and the strips are much cheaper. Alot of people like Walmart's Relion meter. You might want to consider getting a "newbie kit" from Cindy... viewtopic.php?f=3&t=6. She has various types of meters and I'm sure that you can ask for a specific meter (except Relion, I doubt she has those).

 

link

Consumer Reports meter reviews (does not include the Alphatrak)

http://docs.google.com/View?docID=dd5ck ... on=_latest


other link from old FDMB board
http://www.felinediabetes.com/glucometer.htm

 

That curve looks like a decent response to the insulin.

Are you using U40 syringes from the vet? Or did you get U100 syringes from a human pharmacy?

And also -- is the ProZinc U40? (40 units per ml)

If using U40 insulin in a U100 syringes --- the dose is off by 2.5x
U40 is more dilute than U100

Caution should be used when making dose changes.

If you suddenly reduce the dose back to 1 unit, you need to test for Ketones in the Urine.

 

That table is really helpful - Thanks!

ProZinc is U40, and I am using the U40 syringes I got from the vet.

 

This might seem like a silly question, but how do you test for ketones? I understand you need the strips and that it is a urine test, but how do you actually get the urine on the strip?

 

With my cat, I stick the strip in the stream as he pees. He's not shy, and once he starts peeing he can't stop, so I wait around the corner until I hear the stream.

Some people catch the urine in a dedicated ladle, spoon, or small cup.

If you can't get urine from him one of those ways, some people cover the litter with plastic so that the litter doesn't soak up the urine.

(I can see your face now. It's really not that bad.)

 

just got a chance to check back in and one thing popped out at me, the old meter test at the vet vs. the vet's test. you tested from the ear. where did the vet test from? if you took a test from the ear and the vet drew blood from a vein, that is why there was such a big difference in the numbers most likely. the way to comparison test at the vet's is for both of the parties to test the same blood sample

also want to mention about getting the urine sample for ketone testing. my diabetic is a rescue from the streets, albeit she was pretty young when we trapped her. she is growing to like us humans but is by no means a lap cat so for me the only way i can get a urine sample is to hang out around the corner and as soon as i hear her stream stop, i dive in with my ketone strip into the puddle of pee before it soaks into the litter. if i try while she is actually in the box, she WILL run away from me, streaming pee as she goes and to be honest, i'd rather not get a sample than have pee all over the place :lol:

and about the food, yes, wet is best but as Venita i think it was said, you CANNOT make any diet changes while you are giving the dose you are giving. get all your ducks in a row as far as reading, asking questions, feeling somewhat sure of things, and making out a gameplan, then make your changes as far as food goes.

now, off to bed for me.

 

I have a high dose kitty, but I just don't see enough in the numbers you posted that say you have a high dose kitty. Albeit, we don't have days and days of numbers to look at but the mere fact that your posted numbers have steadily increased as your doses have increased is fairly much a big red flag to me. The 1u increment increases are a bit abrupt as well. I honestly think I would start all the way over at 1u and work back up. You can at that point switch your food to all canned/wet to assist. Please do not switch the food before dropping that dose. Can not stress enough that you are ketone testing when you do this. ANY tests that show even trace ketones should be considered an emergent situation. Get as many spot checks as you can, within reason, and we can help you ascertain when you need to go up.

This is a HUGE learning curve so if you forget something don't hesitate to ask. We've all had our first day on this site and most of us probably retained 20% of what we read during the first couple of days, so we're not gonna act like you're dumb or anything if you ask a question. Ask whatever you want to know!

 

Hi Molly!

I, too, have a kitty with acromegaly and at times he needed massive doses of insulin. At this point I just don't see that your kitty needs as much as he's getting.

I have to agree with the others: you need to start over. Given the lower numbers you got 12 hours after the morning shots on 1/1 and 1/3, it makes me wonder just how much lower Meatball went. The super high resulting bgs following those readings hollers rebound pretty loudly to me. Yes, it may be frustrating to see him in higher numbers when the dose is lowered, but you're seeing high numbers right now, too.

So definitely test for ketones, change the diet (you don't need prescription food-- Fancy Feast, Friskies, 9 Lives, Wellness, Merrick, etc, all are actually better) while monitoring his bgs, and I'm betting you see a positive change in less than a week. Let us know what we can do to help.

dancing_cat

 

A year and a half old is really young to be diabetic. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but it's infrequent. You said that he had a UTI in August. Has he been rechecked since then? Sometimes UTIs can hang around as low grade infections (same with dental problems) that mimic diabetes.
I would take him in and ask for a urine check using a procedure called cystocentesis: http://www.petplace.com/cats/urinalysis ... page1.aspx

 

Just a couple of comments here...

Did he get steroids at some point? It seems that most young diabetics are the result of a steroid overdose.

I agree with the other high-dose people - it seems more likely that he is overdosed. Acro is caused by an extremely slow-growing tumor. He doesn't seem old enough to have it.

There is an awesome vet clinic in D.C. called Southpaws: http://www.southpaws.com/ I'm not sure if they do "normal" medicine or just specialty.

 

I cut Meatball's dose back to 1 u this am, and will recheck in a few hours to see what his BG level is. Will let you all know when I do that!

Thanks for recommendation on the vet, but I actually do not have a car, so getting to Fairfax is a much bigger deal than you might think .

Meatball he never been on steroids. The only meds he has ever taken other than Glipizide and Insulin were the antibiotics for the UTI.

 

What was his preshot number?

 

It would not surprise me to learn that your meatball was turned into a diabetic by the very foods you put him on to help with the UTI condition.
I think this is exactly what put my Harley onto that path. He was tested frequently for diabetes and other things during a couple of bouts of UTI and first went on Hills CD dry requested by the vet. That caused his coat to be in such bad condition that after about 6 months I refused to feed him that and changed him to Wysong Uretic. His coat looked better but after about a year on that he begins to show odd signs, excessive thirst,lots of peeing, lethargic etc. We took him in and his first BG at the vet was 431.
I have taken the route of just changing my cats totally off dry food and onto wet food with very good results so far. Have a look at my spreadsheet for Harley. All his changes thus far are without insulin! I haven't counted that out for sure but I am hoping to regulate him with a food change only.

 

Real ProZinc [the stuff in the green/blue/white bottles] - not the crazy stuff that I've seen called "Compounded ProZinc" or "Compounded PZIR" - is absolutely U-40. It NEVER comes in U-100.

 

WOW

10u twice a day????????????

I believe, in my opinion, the only way this cat is still here is because you are feeding the evil dry food. confused_cat confused_cat

He is very, very young to have developed diabetes already. I think it may have been a combination of the evil dry food and the meds for the infection. Sometimes, infections can increase bg levels and certainly trips to the vets increase them also. That is why hometesting is so important.

You need to start testing more throughout the cycle, start back at 1u and switch to canned food. PLEASE cut back to 1u and switch to canned food AT THE SAME TIME

I unfortunately have been through the glip dance waste of time also...........



Welcome to our FDMB family and be patient with yourself. You sound like you really love your cats, so you have come to the perfect place. Get some chocolate, sit back and get ready to read. Also, remember Every Cat Is Different. (ECID) Also, remember opinions may vary sometimes on this board, so you may get different views. Unfortunately, that is human nature.

Sorry this is very long, but there is a lot to say! Also, remember we were ALL newbies once and are feeling just like you are right now! OK……..breathe………. :RAHCAT

You do not need any type of prescription food or “special” diabetic food. Use Janet & Binky’s chart for canned food at http://binkyspage.tripod.com/canfood.html. . Low carb is best for diabetics. I try to stay around 10% or under. I feed Whiskas, 9-Lives and mostly Friskies canned food. Diabetes is very treatable and does not cost as much as you would think. If you are giving a high dose of insulin and feeding dry, be careful with switching to canned food. You MUST reduce the insulin at the same time you switch to canned food.

Please create a profile if you have not already done so (viewtopic.php?f=6&t=531). It will help us to help you. We need to know what kind of insulin you are on, what needles you are using (U-40 or U-100), what are you feeding, how much insulin you are giving and when, BG test results, etc. There are many people on this board from all over the world, so it will be helpful to know what area and time zone you are in.

Remember that your cat is YOUR cat, and YOU are paying your VET to help you take care of him; diabetes was probably a day or two worth of notes when the vet was in college; it is probably NOT a day-to-day existence with his own cat trying to maintain a quality of life. Sorry to say, but I would have overdosed my guys on insulin if I followed my vet's advice. Vets, unfortunately are not as knowledgeable as they should be on diabetes.

Sometimes, as I did, you have to take a leap of faith and trust these people on this board who deal with diabetes day in and day out. Trust me. You will not be disappointed. OK………..breathe again……….get some chocolate…….. cat_pet_icon

Also, please realize that it takes insulin about a week to settle. START LOW AND GO SLOW!! The usual starting dose from our experiences is 1u twice a day for at least a week. Insulin in cats is NOT and I repeat NOT based on weight. This is a misconception that a lot of us have gotten from our vets here. pc_work

You have to be patient, as I also had to learn!! Do not adjust the dose upwards based on one test. Don’t freak out based on one test result. As long as the levels stay on the high side, keep the same dose twice a day for at least the initial week period and you should see improvements. When you have some time (hee hee), read my profile doc at http://docs.google.com/View?id=dfqss8sg_1cpgwhbd9 .

If you are not hometesting already, you really need to start!! Hometesting is VERY important. Most of us here use any human meter. Think of it as a human diabetic does. *If it were you or a child of yours, you'd be testing blood glucose levels at home prior to each shot; you'd be working with your doctor to determine a proper dose based on those shot results, correct?* Some vets do not agree with hometesting and I cannot for the life of me understand why. Most vets, sadly are not knowledgeable enough in feline diabetes. Insulin is a VERY powerful drug and you NEED to hometest before giving a shot. This is very important. The vet would rather have you bring the cat to them, stress it out more, which may spike the levels anyway and then they can charge you $$. Hometesting saved me a lot of money and it is VERY important for you personally to know the cat’s levels and how it is reacting to the insulin before you shoot so you do not pass up your ideal dosage.

Thanks to everyone's help here I learned to home test 2 cats and they both got off insulin within 3 weeks with diet change…but of course, they reacting both DIFFERENTLY with the process. If I can do it with 2 cats twice a day (and more on curve days), ANYONE can do it. It does NOT hurt them as much as you think it does. It just stings for a moment and then it is gone, you can try it on yourself. Also, put pressure on the ear after poking and it should minimize the nub. They won't mind it once they start feeling better. I use the True Track meter (CVS or Walgreens brand) which I love. And, the strips are also reasonable. Also, remember to give them a treat after the test. Here is a link to a member videos on hometesting:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zE12-4fVn8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZ6iXetR398

I would not feed DRY food if at all possible. Of course, it is better than nothing – you MUST get them to eat if you are giving insulin, but if there is any chance, get them off the dry. I took my guys off dry and within a month they were off insulin. Again, remember that switching from dry to wet can cause a drop in blood sugars, so you MUST reduce insulin at the same time to make sure you are not giving too much insulin. I truly believe also that I saved some of my many others from developing diabetes. I also saved so, so much money changing them all to regular canned cat food.
When Blackie and Jackie got diagnosed, I was afraid to start shots. The people on this board made me realize it was no big deal. (They went on PZI insulin around 3-25-06 and went off on 4-18-06! Please also realize that diet plays a BIG, BIG part in insulin needs. I switched my cats off dry food to all wet and I was never so happy. It was a challenge to try to regulate 2 cats at once.


Welcome to the Sugar Dance. flip_cat
Welcome to the Vampire Club.

If I can do it, ANYONE can!!!
It does get easier. Trust us.

You need to test BEFORE you shoot. It usually goes: Test, Feed, Shoot



There's a saying something like "better the sugar level is too high for a day than too low for a minute".




Let us know what readings you get.

 

Today (FEB 07):
AMPS 436 gave 1u
+6 452

What do you think?

 

to be expected in my opinion. if you stick with the lower dose and change diet in the next couple days, i bet those numbers are much better by next weekend.

just remember to get your ketone tests in and make sure he likes whatever you change his diet to

 

Did he eat between the time you gave the shot and the +6? Normally, the +6 should be lower than the preshot. Did you start changing his food today also?

 

Yes, I took his BG then fed him, so he ate a few mins after I tested. I am still feeding him the dry DM for now.

Also, I will be picking up some ketostix tonight.

It seems there are mixed views on whether I should switch him the wet food now, or after I get him settled into a lower dosage of insulin? I'm confused about what to do about this. FYI - I didn't realize I could buy 'normal' food or that he should be eating wet food until yesterday when you all responded to my post. I will certainly buy wet food from now on, but I just bought bags of the DM which I received in the mail yesterday - would it be okay to use this for awhile? It's quite expensive... I'm not sure what I would do with it if he doesn't eat it. A bag seems to last about 5ish weeks or so. I don't want to feed it to him if it is bad for him, but if it's possible to keep him on it for a month I'll feel less like I flushed $100 down the toilet.

Ahh. Wish I had posted on here a week ago!

 

Hi Molly,

Usually pet food is pretty much guaranteed. I would call the company I bought it from and say that my cat refuses to eat it. They should refund your money.

If you have cut back to one unit and are hometesting, you can start feeding wet food. BG levels can come down fast with wet food, and you want to be on top of this so you need to test before every shot. ( Oliver's bg levels came down 100 points overnight when we made the switch.) Some kitties love the switch and never look back. Oliver was thrilled with the wet food. Sometimes cats have sensitive stomachs or just don't like change.

So you might start mixing half and half. If he is excited about the wet and doesn't have any digestive upsets, then you can quickly decrease the dry. If he is stubborn about the wet, come back on. We have lots of ways to get kitties to eat.

The important thing is that he needs to eat if he is getting insulin. If he fights the change, you can do it slowly. But, yes, it usually makes a big difference in their bg levels.

 

Just hang tight. This will be a waiting phase. If it's rebound, it will stay high a bit anyway. You could start to phase out any dry at this point too, since you are testing. Don't be tempted to up the dose yet.

 

Molly I know what you mean about the cat food. I had just bought a shipment of Wysong Uretic when I realized Harley's problem. It is expensive but I wanted to get Harley onto wet as soon as possible. Once I realized he would eat the wet if I insisted I gave the dry food to the local humane society. They are always happy to have anything donated and that got it out of the house so my cats can't smell dry food and ask for it. You can also claim donations on your income tax if you itemize!

 

The caution was to continue feeding the dry food until you reduced the insulin dosage. Now that you have made the reduction, you need to know whether the 400s you're seeing are the result of insufficient insulin or too many carbs. I understand not wanting to waste $100 but until you take away the dry food, you can't know how much insulin he really needs.

Would your vet buy it back from you?

 

Purina offers a 100% satisfaction guarantee. Call them and they will let you know how to get you money back. This is not about the money because Purnia should make it right.

Read Janet & Binky's list and get your kitty going on a wet food only diet with less than 10% carbs as %Kcal - like yesterday, don't look back. :smile: It does not need to be prescription diet which have very average ingredients anyway.

http://binkyspage.tripod.com/canfood.html

Also the food will keep. So if you go buy wet food right now and you can decide what to do about the dry food later.

 

thats a really good point. I have returned OPENED food to my vet based on the satisfaction guarantee. A possible idea which may soften the blow could be to exchange it for canned DM (silver top cans) which has 5% calories from carbs. I don't think Janet has it on her list, but this is the "as fed" info about the SILVER top canned DM.

the new DM contains
35% of calories from protein
60% of calories from fat
5% of calories from carbohydrate
262 mg phosphorus/100 calories

My kitties also really like Fancy Feast, it doesn't have rice or other vegetables/fruits, just stay away from the gravy flavors.

If you want to see how long dry food carb "poisoning" can affect bg, take a good look at Cody's spreadsheet. (Cody has acromegaly, so he doesn't respond to insulin like your cat does, so remember that when you are looking at our doses. Most here don't think your guy fits the bill for that, thats why they want you to reduce the dose.) Cody was doing pretty well for several weeks, then got into dry dog food (CARBS!!) a week ago. His numbers are still not back down where they were, almost a week later.

PS my heart stopped as well when I saw the 8u shot 65. Please keep reading and checking back. this FDMB can help you SO much just as it has helped many of us. WELCOME!

 

Today's numbers:

AMPS 626 1u
PMPS 517 1u

Switched to wet food tonight. So far have not had any luck with the ketostix. I'm going to try putting plastic over the litter tonight, see if that works!

 

I know how tough this is Molly, continuing to see Meatball in higher numbers, but give it a few more days for her system to clear from the high dose.

 

I am so glad you decided to drop the dosage :razz: :razz:


Yes, you can switch to wet food now that you are on 1u.

Also, please realize that it takes insulin about a week to settle. START LOW AND GO SLOW!! The usual starting dose from our experiences is 1u twice a day for at least a week. Insulin in cats is NOT and I repeat NOT based on weight. This is a misconception that a lot of us have gotten from our vets here. pc_work

You have to be patient, as I also had to learn!! Do not adjust the dose upwards based on one test. Don’t freak out based on one test result. As long as the levels stay on the high side, keep the same dose twice a day for at least the initial week period and you should see improvements.

GOOD JOB - it will get better. :RAHCAT

 

Molly, you came to the right place - please keep letting us know how you progress. My gut tells me I am in a similar situation (new ProZinc user). My vet has all my faith but is new to ProZinc himself and his recommendations went against the conventional wisdom of this board. After never being close to regulated on Vetsulin, Shyloh started at 2 U ProZinc on Jan 15 and is currently at 7 U BID and #'s still high, higher than they ever were on the Vetsulin. Each increase in dose registered practically the same results. Very frustrating so I hope to gain some confidence through your experience.

 

To PLF303 - 7 units BID after just less than 1 month is A HUGE DOSE. please, consider starting a new thread!

 

PLF303,
I second what Jen just said [thanks for catching that Jen!!]. For some reason I did not catch the 7u! Please DO start a new thread here or in the PZI group [ProZinc is considered "PZI"]. There are several cats that have joined recently in similar circumstances with very high doses of ProZinc. Please start home testing ASAP and get your numbers in a spread sheet [the instructions for this are in the Tech Support Forum].

 

Today's numbers:
AMPS: 468 1u
PMPS: 446 1u

I can actually tell that Meatball is doing better. He was incredibly playful today, like I've not seen in months! I am not having any luck with the Ketostrips. Both cats got really freaked out by the plastic in the litter box... Will keep trying to catch him in the act.

 

Another way to catch a urine sample is to alter the litter. You can put him in a room alone with a litter box with just a little litter in it. Or you can buy some of the aquarium gravel and put it in the box.

With these higher numbers, it would be nice to have some ketone testing.

 

or adding fresh litter to a new box (dishpan, storage box, etc) then put him in it, most cant resist marking it! be ready with the strips.

 

:RAHCAT Looks like you're on the right track w/ Meatball! Don't worry you've got lots of good people watching out for you. :YMHUG:

I saw a really big difference in Tess when I got her off the dry food and eating wet. I started putting out a little more wet every day next to her dry, the more canned she ate the more dry was left. It wasn't a big shock to her system and it took about a week. I was lucky, some cats just really like dry though. One trick I learned here is using crushed freeze dried beef liver dog treats on top. She will eat anything with that on it. I was also encouraged to add water to the canned food. Actually I add a lot of water now, the food is easier for her to eat and doesn't stick to the bowl, which she hates. cat(2)_steam They're all fussy i some way , but you'll learn how to get Meatball to do what's good for him.

This is a site often recommended her for info on feline nutrition. There is even a page on getting finicky cats to switch. http://catinfo.org/

 

Molly, I split your last post away into a separate topic here: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5916.

This one was getting a little long and I wanted folks to be sure to see the new issue.

 

Thanks!