HELP!! Scared Confused Lost Worried

Discussion in 'Prozinc / PZI' started by Irish Pat, Mar 19, 2020.

  1. Irish Pat

    Irish Pat Member

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    Mar 14, 2020
    My wife and I are totally new to this as nobody in our family has diabetes and now our baby (Brady, 10 yr old male short hair tabby) has diabetes and we are trying to learn as much as possible by reading and reading and reading. I think the more we read the more confused we get. We are very scared, worried, and lost. He was diagnosed last week (Tuesday). He lost about 2lbs of weight, has pancreatitis, he is on cerenia for that, had ketones in his urine, a trace on the first test, none on the second and had a 495 sugar reading. He was in the ER for a day and then the vets for two days getting fluid. They started him out on 1U of Prozinc, his numbers were pretty steady in the mid to upper 300's from home testing on the ReliOn prime, he dropped down to 218 one day. He went back in for a weekly check up and his sugar was 331 on the alpha trac at the vet and our meter read 291, so about a 40 point difference. So due to the numbers the vet wanted to raise him to 2U of insulin. We waited until the next morning to start the 2U's, I took his sugar before he ate and his shot and it was only 190 and dropped throughout the day to 95. That evening before being fed and his shot it had went back up to 335. So we started the 2U as directed by the vet. This morning, he read 405 and now this afternoon he went up to 415. We have him now on a strict feeding scheduled, 6 in the morning and 6 in the evening with low carb Friskies moist food. I know this takes time but we are so confused, can anyone shed some light on whats happening and why his numbers are all over the place? Is this common, should we be concerned with the numbers all over the place? Any help what so ever will be extremely helpful. I have read quite a few posts, you are all great people and wonderful cat lovers. Thank you
     
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  2. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

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    Jan 31, 2013
    I hate to ask this Pat, but we are really shorthanded with people to help in the Prozinc ISG group.

    Would you please repost this, start a new thread, in the Feline Health (Welcome & Main) forum.

    More people to see your post and help you there. Thank you.

    p.s. Helping someone now with a potential hypoglycemic episode. Please bear with us as we prioritize responding.
     
  3. Irish Pat

    Irish Pat Member

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    Mar 14, 2020
    Sure can and yes you help those that need it immediately
     
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  4. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

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    Jan 31, 2013
    Thanks for understanding Pat. Really short handed now, with the covid19 virus upending so many lives.
     
  5. Irish Pat

    Irish Pat Member

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    Mar 14, 2020
    I understand, im working from home, which makes this even tougher to handle..I really am struggling with this but I know our Brady will fight thru this. I hope you guys can help ease our minds.
     
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  6. Olive & Paula

    Olive & Paula Well-Known Member

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    Sep 6, 2015
    Pat.

    Welcome. I'm not familiar with Prozinc anymore but I can help answer a few questions.

    First here some reading and a few things you can do so we can help you.

    Spreadsheet. Reading ss. Profile

    We rely on data here, so the spreadsheet is very important. The profile (signature as we call it) has pertinent info so we don't keep asking same question over and over).

    It is great your home testing. There could be a number of reasons the number went higher after shot. It depends when it was in relation to the shot time. A cycle is the 12 hr period between shots.

    Pancreatitis. Is kitty getting any pain meds for it? My Ollie is chronic p'titis. Pain can increase glucose in kitty. In addition, feeding smaller meals more often is more beneficial for p'titis and diabetes. Is that an option for you.
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2020
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  7. Irish Pat

    Irish Pat Member

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    Thanks Olive and Paula for responding, I will take a look at the information you gave me and try to set up a spreadsheet, give me a little time on that one but I will get it done. As far as pain, Brady doesn't seem to be in any pain at all, none...His Spec fPL test was 5.6 normal ranges are (0.0-3.5) so he was only a little high on that which is the test they run for p'titis, which im sure everyone knows that on here....Vet told us that number is high but not real high, they have seen some way higher than that, like 18 and above. Vet told us that he needs to be 100% regulated as far as food goes, his shots and food all given at 6 AM and 6 PM, she told us no feedings in between...Trust me that's hard, that's a complete change from what he was doing as far as eating, by the way we have two cats, Emma, is Brady's mom. Now she is on that same schedule with food. So many people have told us so many things, reading articles tells us so many different things as well....just so confused right now.....We are going to learn this, for our Brady and the help all of you give us will be extremely needed in this process...So thank you again
     
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  8. NicoleC46237

    NicoleC46237 Member

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    Feb 7, 2020
    Hi Pat! I am by no means a pro at this but I can tell you as someone still learning and not too much farther into it than you that you are already doing the best for Brady that you can and that matters! A few things I have learned so far -
    1. You are going to poke your cat A LOT - and he is not going to hate you for it. We are finally at a point where my Lou comes running for his test times so he can get his treat and cuddles.
    2. I have found that giving Lou his big meals before his insulin (test/feed/shoot) and half meals at his +6 am and pm makes him feel the best. I have 2 other civilian cats and they are all on the same diet now so I feed 1.5 cans at meal times and 1 can at snack times for them all to share. That way if Lou's BG gets low he has food to eat to bump himself back up and while his pancreas is still trying to heal and his body isn't using the food so well he doesn't ever feel like he's starving.
    3. My vet is really great and has my cats best interest at heart - but he also gives everyone the same suggestions for dosing and food for Feline Diabetes. One Size Fits All - but it doesn't. He knows I found this forum and that I am using the guidelines from this site to help Lou. He gives me his dosing suggestions and we play "don't ask, don't tell" about if I follow them or not. The majority of vets give a standard of care based on the easiest way to treat because if it's too hard there is a chance that people won't try or they will give up on the pet instead of going through the hard stuff. It's sad, but true. You just have to decide if you can let go of feeling bad if you stray from what the vet has told you and go with the experienced voices on here instead. That was my hurdle - and I'm so glad I made that jump.
    4. The SS and the signature are lifesavers! It is so handy when I have a question about dosing and I just have to give a basic question and everyone can jump on my SS and see what Lou has been eating, his tests lately, what changes have happened lately, what his doses have been, etc and then they are already ahead of the game when they help me make the next decision. There are so many factors when deciding to change a dose up or down so it's nice to not have to type up a novel just to get some help each time.
    5. There is a section at the end of each line on the SS for comments - I had no idea it was there until 2 weeks into filling it out LOL. You can put things you want to share, things you want to remind yourself and any little thing that you notice that might mean something later. I have referred back to it many times so I wanted make sure you knew it was there.
    6. There is a crazy amount of knowledge on here! It is overwhelming!! Take it a step at a time. Ask questions - there are no dumb ones! Truly - everyone here has been great and so helpful - it's so hard when you are trying to navigate this big life change and they have all been there, done that.
    7. Take time to celebrate the little wins! Whenever Brady has a good day, does something he hasn't done in a while that is like his old self, has a great BG test - celebrate it!! Spend time petting, loving, treating, etc just because. Don't forget to enjoy the moments not involving testing, shooting and eating. They are just as important.
    8. Take care of you! You can't take care of Brady if you are worn out! Take a break if you need to. Step back and remember why you are doing this. For the love of your boy. He trusts you to take care of him so make sure to take care of yourself so you can take the best care of him you can. Ask for help when you need it. We all were at the beginning of this journey at one time too.
    You've got this Pat!
     
  9. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

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    Jan 31, 2013
    Excellent suggestions from Nicole and her Lou. I help with looking at Lou's SS every now and then. Whenever Nicole asks.

    Good job Nicole, of summarizing what you have learned.
     
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  10. Irish Pat

    Irish Pat Member

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    Mar 14, 2020

    Nicole, what type of insulin are you using?
     
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  11. Olive & Paula

    Olive & Paula Well-Known Member

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    Sep 6, 2015
    The pancreas is probably just a bit irritated. That should get better when he starts getting contolled. The 2 meals a day is old school thinking. Should Brady go to low during a cycle he will seek food to boost himself up if your not home. Just like you would If your glucose goes to low. I don't know if you ever experienced a hypoglycemic episode. It's an awful feeling.

    We all understand about following vets advice. Most of us started that way. The associate in my vet practice wants Ollie on rx food for diabetes. Then on another for kidneys. Ollie's primary leaves the diabetes dosing, feeding, testing to me. She handles the chronic p'titis, constipation, medication for her Acromegaly, kidneys. We marry all issues and seem to have a pretty good plan now. She just left the practice and started her own so not totally set up yet. I need to see associate for some things still. Ollie is fed every 3 hrs around the click. Auto feeder for when I'm not home and overnight.

    Your question above to Nicole. If you look at bottom of post you will see light grey info. That's the profile, signature I mentioned earlier. When that is done, the info appears in all your posts. It is the place you link the spreadsheet to, so it can be looked at before giving advice.
     
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  12. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

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    NicoleC46237 uses Prozinc, as you can see in her signature. Those smaller words in light gray, at the bottom of her post.
     
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  13. Irish Pat

    Irish Pat Member

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    Mar 14, 2020
    Well I set up the SS but have no clue how to edit it and my information
     
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  14. Irish Pat

    Irish Pat Member

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    I got it....took a little bit
     
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  15. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

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    Ok, so you set up your spreadsheet as a "Google sheet". So you sign into your google account and update it from there.

    I can see it, blank for now. At least you did the permissions correctly, so it's shared on the web, but only available for you to update. What we see in your signature is a "view only" version. That's good, because you don't want other people to accidentally update the SS.
     
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  16. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

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    Did you put in any numbers yet?

    p.s. Please see previous reply, #15.
     
  17. Olive & Paula

    Olive & Paula Well-Known Member

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    I see numbers. Well done.
     
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  18. Irish Pat

    Irish Pat Member

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    Mar 14, 2020
    Did it...Wooo hooo….That 592 scares me, that was just taken about an hour ago!! This is what im not understanding...However, yesterday and today was the two days we went with only two feedings for the cats, Brady and Emma.....Brady wasn't to happy it about the last two days, napped a little in the morning then pretty much bugged me the rest of the day until the PM feeding....The cats were on a Hills Science diet dry food, they would free feed throughout the day, but it wasn't a lot of food put out...Then we would give them a little 1/4 can of Friskies moist around 3 pm every day. We are now just going with the Friskies moist, the low carb cans only. So I don't think the transition to moist only will be tough
     
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  19. Irish Pat

    Irish Pat Member

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    There is one thing I want to say to the group..I was never really a "forum" person so this is sorta new to me....Im trying to keep up, don't think I don't appreciate all your responses and I will read everyone of them, I promise....I am going to get a little dinner and spend a little time with my wife....Im sure I will be on in a little bit, if not everyone have a great night...
     
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  20. NicoleC46237

    NicoleC46237 Member

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    Feb 7, 2020
    We're on ProZinc as well. He started on 1U and is now up to 2.5U twice a day
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2020
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  21. NicoleC46237

    NicoleC46237 Member

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    Those big numbers scared me a lot at first too (they aggravate me more now) until I learned that the low number are a lot more scary. I would choose for Lou to have a high day over an under 50 moment any day. It takes some cats a long time to balance out, some even get into remission and some get finally get regulated. Our boys didn't get this way overnight and they won't be fixed that way either. Don't fret the big numbers - they are just some of the many that will be on your SS.
     
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  22. NicoleC46237

    NicoleC46237 Member

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    It's hard to keep up sometimes and we all walk away and spend time in our lives - it's expected. Enjoy your family time and welcome to this family too! :)
     
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  23. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

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    Past my normal bedtime. See you on the forum, later tomorrow. Got some chores to do first.
     
  24. Irish Pat

    Irish Pat Member

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    Mar 14, 2020
    Well this morning his AMPS level was only 67, he is only getting fed today, to scared to give him insulin with his sugar that low.....Really really really confused...but will figure this out eventually, hopefully.....
     
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  25. JL and Chip

    JL and Chip Member

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    Dec 28, 2009
    Good instincts to not give a shot with a blood glucose of 67.

    Sounds like 2u, especially with the food change, might be too high of a dose. Vets like to increase too much and too quickly — going from 1u to 2u is a 100 percent increase. We tend to do things around here in 0.25u (one-quarter unit) changes...Slow and methodical while collecting lots of data.

    Science Diet is a high-carb food so simply removing it from the diet and going with strictly low-carb canned can significantly reduce insulin needs. Pancreatitis also can increase blood glucose (BG) so resolving that can result in lower BGs as well.

    As others have said, restricting food to two meals a day is old-school thinking. Most cats like to“graze” and multiple small meals a day is easier on the system and less of a hit on the pancreas than two large meals. Human diabetics are told to eat multiple small meals and snacks for that reason. Plus you’ll have a much happier cat. :)

    If you haven’t read it, you might want to review the Prozinc “Sticky” posts at the top of this forum.
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2020
  26. Irish Pat

    Irish Pat Member

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  27. Irish Pat

    Irish Pat Member

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    Sorry my post didn't go thru....Yes we were very concerned about giving Brady his insulin this morning with his glucose reading that low....So we didn't, once again very confused because it was close to 600 yesterday fell to 402 and then this morning 67...I know its a lot to learn and adjust to, just wish this all made sense. We will get it I hope....As far as the feeding goes, we are going back to our original plan when we decided to make the transition to all moist low card Friskies. AMPS meal PMPS meal and a nice little 1/4 can for each cat around lunch time, so basically three meals a day. Brady seemed to like that and wasn't looking for food like he was the last two days. Starting that today so hope it goes well.
     
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  28. Olive & Paula

    Olive & Paula Well-Known Member

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    Sounds like a plan. The insulin needs food to work with. So to have no food between the 2 shots with meals, the insulin can drop them to dangerous territory. And with food change at same time....just keep monitoring. Maybe a small snack, like 1/8 can or couple of teaspoons put out when you go to bed would help. Most cats love to dive low overnight.
     
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  29. Juls and Billy

    Juls and Billy Member

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    Dec 28, 2019
    Hello Pat and Brady!

    I wanted to pop in and talk a little about Brady's readings so far. Might be a little of a long post, but bear with me, I think you'll understand what's happening with his readings by the time we're done. I am mostly going to talk to you about the Start Low Go Slow method of using ProZinc, because I think it would really help you and Brady out. I think this post will help with some of the questions you had in your other thread. For example, you asked if the dose should change based on pre-shot numbers. The answer is not unless he's too low, but let me try to explain why. Let me remind you that you are doing awesome so far. Don't fret if you made earlier decisions that went against what I'm going to recommend. You're doing great, you just need knowledge and practice.

    Prozinc dosage changes based on low readings, not high. Look at your spreadsheet day 6. You upped the dose based on that high pre-shot test in the AM. It didn't help. In fact, you had your highest reading that PM pre-test. And here's the reason you don't adjust to more insulin with a high pre-test number: Bounce. My best guess as to why Brady went even higher that day, is that he dropped too low sometime during that cycle. There's a funny thing that happens when a diabetic starts insulin and the sugar drops lower than the body is used to. The liver freaks out, even if that lower number is perfectly safe. "Help!" the liver shouts. "We're crashing! Release all the sugar!" Then the liver and pancreas release a ton of stored sugar and the BGL skyrockets.

    So, what do you do about bounce? Nothing. It will clear in a few 12-hour cycles. You don't give more insulin, because that could cause a hypo, or more bouncing. You wait for it to clear.

    Adjust dose based on the low readings. Now let's look at Brady's day 7. He had 2 units the day before, and his AM pre-shot was quite low. Low enough to have to skip his dose, which can be dangerous if he had ketone issues. If you haven't already done so, get some Ketostix at your local pharmacy, and test for ketones any time Brady has to skip a dose or isn't eating. They test urine, and they will help keep Brady safe. You did right to skip the dose. Brady's BGL was too low. He could have gone hypo, and that's dangerous.

    Prozinc dosing protocol. So, when do you adjust the dose? With prozinc and the start low go slow method, anytime the BGL drops below 90, you adjust the dose down by .25 of a unit. If your low readings are all blue and above, you might adjust the dose up by .25. Anytime you adjust, you hold the dose for 3 to 6 12-hour cycles and let the body adjust before considering another adjustment. The exception is if the pre-shot test is too low to inject.

    So, what BGL is too low to inject, and what do you do about it? Until you have more experience under your belt, and know better how Brady is going to react to insulin, it is suggested that with any pre-test reading below 200, you skip the shot. Better a day of too high blood sugar than risk a deadly hypo event. But Brady had ketones and skipping doses is also an issue. There are two other thing you can try. Stalling: wait 20 minutes without feeding, test again, see if the BGL has risen enough to inject. You can stall more than once, keep in mind this may effect the timing of your next shot, but with Prozinc, you have a little wiggle room. Reduced or token dose: Depending on the BGL, you can inject a partial dose or a token dose. Like this morning, you gave Brady a half unit dose, or you could give .25. Honestly, with his BGL under 100, I would have considered skipping again, or giving a token dose, which means a dose so small you can barely see there's insulin in the syringe.

    So, what's next? Here's my advice, and I'm not a dosing expert. My Billy was on ProZinc, and did fantabulous. Take a look at his spreadsheet. Take a look at how quickly we had to reduce his dose and switch from the vet's recommendation to the start low and go slow method. It's a good method. I think it's worth trying with Brady.

    I think you switching Brady to low carb pate is awesome and having a good effect. If I were you, I would hold Brady on a .5 of a unit dose for at least three days and see where he is. Don't worry about high pre-test readings. Get as many mid-cycle tests as you can, so you can catch his low readings. I'm basing this advice on your day 5. Brady dropped down to 95, which was close to having to reduce his dose, based on ProZinc dosing protocols. Instead, you raised his dose, and then doubled it, because the bounce numbers worried you. Start at .5 of a unit, hold for three days, if you don't see any green or low blue numbers, then raise to .75. Think about human diabetics. Doses are increased by tiny amounts. They never suddenly double the dose. If you change too fast, you can miss the perfect dose for Brady. You also risk him having a dangerous hypo.

    I hope this helps. Please ask any questions you have.
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2020
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  30. Irish Pat

    Irish Pat Member

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    Mar 14, 2020

    First off, thank you so much, I do have questions and I will get to this in the morning....The one thing I need to tell you is, I didn't up his dose by my choice, the vet upped his does to 2U based of the numbers I gave her from my home testing. I use the ReliOn tester and the vet uses the Alpha Trac one. I took my tester to the vet that day and she used both testers, mine was 30 points lower. So she based my numbers that I supplied her and then added 30 points to each of my numbers, so to her the conclusion of the results meant that Brady's insulin had to go up from 1U to 2U. She also told me that feeding him two times a day was a must because he needed to be consistent in his eating, once in the morning PS and once in the evening PS. I started that idea the day she told me to start 2U, not so sure if that had a role in his numbers jumping or not. She told me he would learn to eat at those times and to just stick to that schedule. Well she doesn't know Brady, he was literally driving us crazy with him wanting food, along with Emma our female cat. We decided to go back to the way we were going to feed them, which is on my signature and I think we will stick with that. I will have other questions in the morning, Thank you for all the advice.
     
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  31. Juls and Billy

    Juls and Billy Member

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    Dec 28, 2019
    I'm going to be frank, your vet gave you the exact same advice as my vet. If I had followed it, I would have lost Billy on day five. I would have given him 2 units of insulin when he was at a 52 BGL. My vet also said only feed twice a day, but I was briefly diabetic myself before I kicked it to the curb. Now, my Billy has kicked his diabetes to the curb as well, and he didn't do it eating two big meals a day. He did it eating multiple small meals just like I did, because that helps regulate blood sugar.

    The other issue with the two big meals only is that if Brady does drop too low, he won't have any food to help raise his BGL back up. Cats will naturally eat if their blood sugar goes too low.

    Like human doctors, vets are not often nutritionists. Most vets seem more knowledgeable about canine diabetes than feline diabetes. It's up to you whether you follow the vet's advice strictly or go with the protocols that have been developed specifically for cats with diabetes. If you continue with the two big meals and 2 units of insulin, well, I'd be prepared to do a lot of mid-cycle testing to keep Brady safe from a hypo event. I recommend going over the info on what to do in case of a hypo event and what to have in your hypo emergency kit. It's a good thing to do in any event. You want to know how to handle it before you find yourself in an emergency situation.

    Instructions to print.

    Building a hypo kit.
     
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  32. Irish Pat

    Irish Pat Member

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    Mar 14, 2020

    Oh trust me im not at all happy with my vet because of this. Honestly, I wasnt told anything about the disease by my vet. Even after I told her I know nothing about the disease. Even after spending a lot of money for Brady to be in the hospital ER and vets for 3.5 days. Im glad I found this forum to pull us thru the difficult times and hopefully get Brady on the right track. We are not feeding him twice a day only. Two midsize meals in the morning followed by "snack meals" about +6 hours after his shots. They both, him and Emma, seem to like that a lot better.
     
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  33. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

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    Jan 31, 2013
    Perfect! That is what you want to do with feeding a diabetic cat. Just make sure that Brady eats enough in that meal before his shot of insulin. Plus, the no food after about +6, when the insulin is used up is also what you want to be doing.

    Since Brady has had ketones in the past, it's very important that you test for ketones on a daily basis. With either the urine ketone test strips or there are special blood ketone meters you can use, with special strips that test for ketones.

    Keep asking questions. You are doing fantastic so far. "You are doing awesome" as Juls would say. ;)
     
  34. Irish Pat

    Irish Pat Member

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    Mar 14, 2020
    I’m a little confused I should be or should not be feeding at the +6?
     
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  35. Irish Pat

    Irish Pat Member

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    OK, I reread your post Deb, I see what you mean now, its ok to feed at the +6 not after that because I want Brady to eat prior to his shots....The one big question I have is, How much should he eat? That has really never been clarified, lets say he only eats a quarter of his food am I good to give him his insulin?
     
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  36. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

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    Jan 31, 2013
    Is it Patrick? Sorry for the pronoun misuse in your other post. My face is beet red with embarrassment. :oops:

    Let's clarify for you.
    Food at +6 is fine. Food at +7 or later is not. (Usually - see exceptions below)
    No food at least 2 hours before the pre-shot tests. So those pre-shot tests are not inflated by the food influence. That is so you don't give insulin with a BG that is too low, and risk your cat dropping even further into hypoglycemic territory. Because the food influence will wear off as the insulin starts to peak, somewhere in the middle of the 12 hour cycle. Unless your cat is eating more food later in the first part of the cycle. Say around +2 and +4.

    Plus, you want Brady to have an appetite before he gets his insulin. You want him to be a little bit hungry so he will eat at insulin shot time. So there will be something to balance out that insulin shot when it enters the blood stream in a couple of hours.

    EXCEPTIONS (and there are always going to be exceptions to the standard suggestions on feeding)
    1. If your cat is post DKA (diabetic ketoacidosis) or has had ketones, then you want to feed around 1.5 times the normal amount of food. Spread out the food into mini-meals, but with the bulk of the food at or before the +6 time frame if possible. If the cat is not eating well, you keep feeding during the entire cycle and you don't worry about higher BG readings at that point. The treatment for the post DKA is more important than getting your cat better regulated, in better BG (blood glucose) ranges. Achieving regulation can come later.
    2. If your cat has a low BG reading, < 50 or is showing hypoglycemic symptoms, then you want to feed and get those BG levels up to a safer level. To prevent hypoglycemia. Medium carb or high carb food and a simple sugar like honey or corn syrup should be part of your hypo toolkit.
    3. If your cat has pancreatitis or something else going on that is making him feel sick and not eating normal amounts.
    4. Vomiting up the food your cat has eaten earlier. A cat needs food to counteract the insulin. If no food in the stomach, then the blood glucose (BG) can drop too low.
    5. You or someone else in your home have accidentally given your cat too much insulin. You meant to give 1 unit but somehow gave 10 units instead. (Yes, we've had it happen here.)

    Well, how much does that 1/4 of his food consist of? An ounce or 2? More? Less? Is he a good eater? Does he graze, but graze consistently throughout the day/night?

    For example, I know my civie (civilian or non-diabetic) will always eat. At any time I put food out for her. I meal feed, but several times a day. But I'm able to do that, as I'm home most all the time. Retired. If I wasn't, I'd use a timed feeder.

    How much to feed in the course of a day is a different question. So I have a couple of questions for you first.

    Does Brady weigh too much, too little or is he at his ideal weight? Sort of like Goldilocks and the 3 bears.
    Do you have a human scale at home or some other sort of scale where you can weigh him once or twice a week?
    What did your vet say about Brady's weight?
    What did your vet say about Brady's Body Condition Score (BCS)? Sample here for you to review if your vet did not mention BCS.
    WSAVA Body Condition Score Chart

    You're getting a crash course in Feline Diabetes, nutrition and a whole lot of other things all at once. It can be overwhelming. Take your time, go back and reread through the threads and replies. We've thrown a lot of information at you and it can take time and multiple readings through things to absorb it all.

    p.s. You ask fantastic, clear, concise questions. Wish everyone did.
     
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  37. Juls and Billy

    Juls and Billy Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2019
    Excellent! You know, I was pretty wiped last night. I think I misread your post. Didn't mean to imply you were all "vet is the law!" That sounds like a great schedule. Now that my Billy is in remission, he eats every 6 hours. Do give him a little more food than you think he needs, and pay attention if he's begging for food. Diabetic cats don't utilize food well, so some of the calories are going straight into the litter box. Some diabetic cats can need as much as twice the amount of food as their non-diabetic friends.
     
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  38. Irish Pat

    Irish Pat Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2020
    First off thank you for the compliment on asking good questions, I try, lol...Yes it is Patrick, but I usually only get called Patrick when im in trouble so I try to limit that to a minimum, hahaha.

    Brady is 17 lbs, he is a big boy, I do have a human scale at home and have been weighing him regularly because initially he lost just about 2lbs at diagnosis. However, he is eating good now, he has NOT lost any weight, some days he gains .2 lbs, 17 to 17.2 on his weight. He had trace amounts of ketones in his body but after the treatment he got in the hospital it was negative. I do have ketone test strips, been reading a lot about ketones, and he has had trace amounts. One big thing though, he is not lethargic, he is eating, he has good bowel movements, no vomiting what so ever, he plays and appears to be doing good on all levels...EXCEPT BG, but you all are helping with that.

    As far as how much he eats, he does pretty well, now he sometimes doesnt clean the bowl but I would say on average he is eating about 3.5 ounces of a 5 ounce can PS. Some food flavors he likes better than others..However, right after his shot or even before, when he walks away from the bowl, we take it to him and he will continue to eat his food a little more. We have never given him a shot without some food in his system, ever...thats for certain. The vet said as long as he eats something we should be good...but thats why im asking here, ive lost a little trust in my vet, so trying to get an idea of what he should be eating is why I asked the group...She is a very good vet dont get me wrong, I just didnt like some of the short answers we are getting to a very complicated disease.

    I am a research analyst on the law enforcement side, civilian analyst, retiring soon hopefully. This is so different because im used to getting solid answers to my research, with this research its all over the place and no definitive answers. Its this one says this, that one says that and try to put it all together to get in the right place. I wish I could be home with Brady all the time during this but right now im lucky to be working from home because of this terrible virus...Now I use lucky very losely, I would much rather the world be in a safer condition and working from home for other reasons.

    You really have no idea how much everyone is helping....We are worried, it cost us a ton of money since this all happened and I do fear being stuck if something should happen again. We were just blessed with our first grandson which brings joy to us and worry if Brady starts to get sick again. The cost was significant and thats why im reaching out for all the help we can get to keep Brady as healthy as possible and hopefully, we pray everyday, that he starts to get his BG levels back to a normal steady level.. My wife and I are worriers and this has us all out of sorts, we wake up in the middle of the night worrying about him, worrying where this is taking us and so want our baby to be healthy, we are not eating like we should....We found Emma 11 years ago and she was pregnant, and guess who was born right in our house, but our little buddy Brady....He is very special to us and once again we, as a family, cant thank all of you enough.
     
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  39. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2013
    Parents and significant others do that, and when they pull out the big guns, the middle name gets used too. So glad I don't have a middle name!
    Yes, we do know how much we are helping, because we encounter people like you all the time. You cared enough to research and found this message board somehow on the internet. It's why we are still here, even though for some of us, our sugar kitties have moved on to the next world. Wink is why I'm still here, in his memory.
    That can be as simple as a full or empty bladder.
    A cat that has had ketones in the past, can be more prone to ketones in the future. It's the breakdown of body tissue that produces the ketones as a toxic byproduct. Not eating enough, not enough insulin, an infection/ inflammation (think bad teeth, UTI, etc.) is the classic situation for developing ketones. There is a link in the Health Links/FAQ's forum in the index that takes about ketones if you are interested.

    That's plenty to give him his insulin.

    Vets don't have the time to devote to the day to day ins and outs of using insulin and feeding. We do.

    Ask away.

    Congratulations on your first grandson! That must be exciting.

    Have you read this yet?
    Letter from your kitty to you during this time...

    Got to go. Looks like a member has a kitty with low numbers and needs help.
     
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  40. Irish Pat

    Irish Pat Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2020


    Deb don't take this the wrong way, but I love you, hahaha.....You have really took the time along with others to help us....And each day it does get better...That letter is amazing, and it really hits home......Thank you again...

    Please help that kitty with the low numbers...I hope its ok
     
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  41. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2013
    I did. Numbers got up to 112 at PM pre-shot using an Alphatrak, but then the poster did a disappearing act. Hate when that happens. Hope her kitty stays ok. Looks like her vet raised the insulin dose 1U per week, for 6 weeks straight! Can't tell, because she hasn't answered my questions. :confused:

    Not possible to take that the wrong way. I've had @JOJI and Kit give me the big old kiss a few times. :kiss:

    I've told people if they want to tell me to "go fly a kite", go right ahead. If it makes them feel better, do it. Get mad at me. I don't care. Rant in a post and let out your frustrations. Goodness knows, it can help to unload on someone, all those pent up frustrations. This is such a scary and frightful time, and I'm not talking about it's scary only because of the covid-19 virus. I'm talking about scary because your beloved furry family member is feeling sick.

    This disease is very manageable, but it is a marathon, not a sprint. It took time for your kitty Brady to lose those 2 pounds and show those subtle symptoms of diabetes. It will take time to get him better.

    We are a community here. I'm more of a "just the facts mam" type of poster and often forget to include those reassuring words that people need.
     
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  42. Morgan Williams

    Morgan Williams New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2020
    Hi Pat, I want to say I am NO expert at all. I'm here for help with my own weird cat issues haha. My reply is strictly based on my experience. Mu almost 8 year old female tabby was diane with diabetes in December. Preface: she got a rare blood parasite earlier last year and it lead to liver failure which lead to pancreas damage which lead to the diabetes. I had never had an animal with health issues before so I was at a loss and I just knew I'd do anything to help my baby. She had had all these symptoms after being released after the blood parasite. I had a suspicion she had become diabetic, but her vet said to give her time to recover since they thought she just needed time. They kept telling me this. One morning I noticed she couldn't walk well and was very sick so I immediately took her in a nd demanded her sugar be checked. It was almost 900, 879 I think. I know, "how could you let her get so bad?! You should be reported for animal cruelty", but every symptom leading up to it went along with her previous sickness. She's been on prozinc and a strict diet since. She started with 3 twice a day with a sugar recheck after 1 week. It helped bring it down to the low 800s. We gradually went up on her insulin and her sugar gradually went down. Here we are 4 months later at 11 twice a day, W/D prescription cat food, and no outside cat or dog food (she likes to steal my dogs lamb and rice food, weird right ?). We are finally within range. The vet kept talking about switching her to a different insulin brand to see if it would help because her sugar would occasionally jump back up after a week. I wasn't given anything to check her sugar at home so I have to pay close attention to her behavior. I've noticed when her sugar is out of wack (one day she pulled the needle out while giving her shot and she peed right in the floor that day and wasn't as verbal or affectionate). It is a SLOW battle. It is something your cat has to deal with for the rest of his life, and so do you. You may need to go back and talk to your vet again about a higher dose or maybe special food if you haven't already I'm new to all of this and I know it is scary as can be, but you obviously love your cat to be putting in this effort to try to learn more. Remember sometimes you need to step back, take a breath, and remind yourself you're doing your best. Good luck friend !
     
  43. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2013
    @Morgan Williams If you start your own thread, we can give you individualized recommendations too. Like on that cat food you are feeding.
     
  44. Morgan Williams

    Morgan Williams New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2020
    Deb, can you tell me how? I only discovered this site today. I'm not sure if it is because I'm on a mobile phone, but I can't seem to figure out how to create a thread. I actually need help with litter box issues right now and it's how I found this site.
     
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  45. JOJI and Kit

    JOJI and Kit Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2019
    let me take a crack at helping you start a thread

    1. go to the main part of the board
    http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/

    you will see all the forums

    2. pick the forum that best matches with what you need help with. for you litter box issue, the main forum could be a good choice
    http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/forums/feline-health-welcome-main-forum.28/

    you will see a lot of different threads. you want to start one for yourself so you need to

    3. look for the button in the upper right that says "Post New Thread"

    4. click that button

    you will see a form that asks you to fill in a thread title, descriptive is good.
    and then the large area of the form is for you to describe your question, issue, etc. you could copy and paste that from what you've written above if you like.

    when you've written what you need then
    5. click the button Create Thread

    that should do it. lmk ^jw
     
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  46. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2013
    So @Morgan Williams You'll want to be in the right forum. So go over to Feline Health - (Welcome & Main Forum)
    In the upper right hand corner, you will see a blue box that says "Post New Thread". Click on that box.
    A new screen opens up, where you will be able to enter a title. Do that. Make it relevant to your question. Let people know you are new by including the words New Member at the beginning of that title.
    There is a text box below that title area, where you start to type what you want to say.
    When you are done, click on the "Create thread" box at the bottom of the text box.

    Other navigation tips are in the
    Announcements & How to use the FDMB

    There is a "Sticky" or pinned post at the top of that forum.
    Sticky HOW-TO USE THE FDMB: The Basics

    That gives you some basics for navigating. Look at the #2 post in that The Basics sticky for navigation tips.

    It should have been part of your welcome email when you joined the forum.



     
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  47. JOJI and Kit

    JOJI and Kit Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2019
    @Irish Pat it's hard not to love all these generous, knowledgable folks. we are new here too, but working to learn from them everyday.

    @Irish Pat i work from home a lot too. in the first weeks i would jump up at every tiny sound and movement from our kit. or sometimes just because there was no sound or movement at all! but, you will adjust to it after not too long.

    as you will quickly learn, a saying around here is ECID (every cat is different) and that's usually why we love them so much ;)
    so keep reading and asking more questions. i'm sure we've asked the same questions more times than i have fingers and toes to count on. :rolleyes:
     
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  48. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2013
    Let me take a look at Brady's SS and I'll get back to you Pat.
     
  49. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2013
    Brady is high, he's hungry, he's begging for food.
    You want to feed him.
    He's bouncing from those low yellows last night.

    If you can feed him a little bit now, but not after +10, that may be ok.
    Expect his BG number to be high at PMPS pre-shot tonight.
     
  50. Irish Pat

    Irish Pat Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2020

    Thanks Deb
     
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  51. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2013
    You may need to increase the quantity of food you feed Brady and Emma.
    But feed it earlier in the cycle.

    Maybe another 1/8 to 1/4 can of the Friskies at +2 and then again at +4.

    From my read of your notes at the top of your SS, you are feeding Brady 3/4 or a can of Friskies at each pre-shot.
    So 1 1/2 cans a day with the pre-shot tests
    Plus 1/8 of a can at +6 each 12 hour cycle. So that is an additional 1/4 can a day.
    For a total of 1 3/4 cans per day.

    I don't think that is enough for Brady right now.

    Unregulated diabetic cats are very hungry. They can not properly process all the food they are eating.
    So it can be necessary to feed more until Brady is better regulated.

    I remember that Wink was eating around 10-11 ounces a day. Sometimes more. Plus some freeze dried treats. And he was a smaller cat, 10-11 pounds. But he did need to gain some weight back, as he had lost too much weight when I switched him from dry food to wet.

    Especially with Brady's ketone history, he needs to be fed a bit more food.

    Have you tested for ketones today?
     
  52. Irish Pat

    Irish Pat Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2020
    I did test for ketones, no change, trace to small amount from a CVS ketone stick...
     
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  53. Irish Pat

    Irish Pat Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2020
    Im thinking of adding in Fancy Feasts because I have been reading and looking at the protein/carb and they look pretty good. So at the mid day/before bed feeding add a can of that....any thoughts?
     
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  54. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2013
    Tagging you @Irish Pat so you can see if it shows up in your alerts when you are signed on.

    The Fancy Feast pate styles are good and low carb. Can be hard to find right now, with the panic buying. Get creative in where you shop. You want to look for the Classic Pate styles, or the roasted/chunky/flaked styles are all low carb and good for a diabetic cat. Don't know if your cats will like the different texture.

    The FF Roasted Chicken Feast is tiny pieces of chicken in a sort of gravy. But the gravy is made with just a little bit of wheat gluten and soy flour. Not enough to be a concern with a diabetic cat. Usually. Some cats are really carb sensitive. It's a bit of trial and error to find that out.
     
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  55. Olive & Paula

    Olive & Paula Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2015
    Fancy Feast Savory Centers are safe to use. It's more sauce/juice vs the gravy they state on cans.

    I only use the chicken and the beef flavors. All my cats love it. It certainly is more wet than typical pate. Great for mixing pills or supplements into.
     
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  56. Irish Pat

    Irish Pat Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2020
    Since they are both purina products do you guys feel it will be ok just to give it to them?
     
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  57. Irish Pat

    Irish Pat Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2020

    He only eats so much at a sitting...I wish he would eat 3/4 of a can, that's why we are doing this spread out thing so he does keep up his calories....Trust me he eats, just not a big bowl full in one shot. He really never did. Or Emma
     
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  58. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2013
    Yes.

    Not the Fancy Feast Gravy Lover's. Those are high carb, and something you want for your hypo kit.

    Have you seen this food chart? Not every canned food is on there, because the chart is from 2017, and manufacturers have introduced lots of new foods since then. Like the Fancy Feast Savory Centers are a newer product, but safe for a diabetic cat. Or Fancy Feast Naturals are ok too.
    https://catinfo.org/docs/CatFoodProteinFatCarbPhosphorusChart.pdf

    Look for foods that are <= 10% carbs on that food chart. Some cats even do ok on 12% carbs. Keep the protein levels up, above 40% is recommended for a diabetic cat. Unless there is advanced kidney disease. Then you want lower protein.

    In fact, the carb levels on the Fancy Feast are probably lower than the
    Friskies pates you are feeding Brady now.
     
  59. Irish Pat

    Irish Pat Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2020

    Oh yes now that's something I can research and get good results, lol....We are staying under the 10% carbs and trying to get just the higher protein foods in Friskies but thought we would now try adding in FF just because of the crabs and proteins. I wish this disease was all that easy on the research end of things.....
     
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  60. Morgan Williams

    Morgan Williams New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2020
    Thank you Debbie, I'm on a desktop now and it seems to be working, but it keeps throwing an error message up telling me my post is spam?
     
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  61. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2013
    Pat, have you found our
    Health Links / FAQs about Feline Diabetes forum yet?
    There is an Index at the top, with tons of links to information and articles when you open it.
    Sticky INDEX: Health Links/FAQs

    I don't usually point people to the entire index, but try to pick relevant links to answer more immediate questions.

    There are also the Prozinc ISG group "Sticky" or pinned posts at the top of this forum.
    Lantus ISG has their own set of "Sticky" or pinned posts. Not all relevant to Prozinc, but there are some things there that cross over and are good knowledge to have no matter what insulin you use.
     
  62. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2013
    @Morgan Williams When you joined, you should have received a welcome email that required you to complete a few steps to complete your registration.

    Did you do that?
     
  63. Morgan Williams

    Morgan Williams New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2020
    I did, it sent me a link to verify my account which I did to log in. Once I click it it brings me directly to the forum page.
     
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  64. JOJI and Kit

    JOJI and Kit Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2019
    joji has spent a lot of time with that pdf. not just for carb info, but also for phosphorus data since kit has urinary issues. we've tried a variety of combos to find something that meets the criteria and doesn't give her other gastro issues. even though kit is a pretty willing eater, sometimes we have to mix it up to keep her interested. we also mix water in with her wet food bc otherwise she doesn't really drink.
    ^jw
     
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  65. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2013
    We got Morgan Williams straightened out and she has her own thread going over in Feline Health now. Sorry things got sidetracked there for a bit Pat.
     
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  66. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2013
    Hi Pat, I hate to ask this, but when posts get long that can cause difficulties.

    Would you please start a new thread, and link this old one in at the top of the new thread?
    Thank you.

    p.s. Don't want the moderators to get mad at me for not asking people to do this. Don't want the database behind the scenes that runs this message board to have problems either. :(
     
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  67. JOJI and Kit

    JOJI and Kit Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2019
    hey there @Irish Pat
    hope you all are doing okay today.
    lmk if you need helping starting a new thread ^jw
     
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