? Help! Smokys BG over 600, not sure what dose of vetsulin to give

Discussion in 'Feline Health - (Welcome & Main Forum)' started by Lisa and Smoky, Nov 9, 2016.

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  1. Lisa and Smoky

    Lisa and Smoky Well-Known Member

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    Smoky had a BG of over 600 for AMPS. He has a UTI and not sure what dose to give. I gave him 3 units last night. I have another thread going titled " Confused about BG numbers" but don't know how to create a link to it.
     
  2. Tuxedo Mom

    Tuxedo Mom Well-Known Member

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  3. Lisa and Smoky

    Lisa and Smoky Well-Known Member

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    He is on antibiotics since Monday night. I'm not sure how to post other link.
     
  4. Lisa and Smoky

    Lisa and Smoky Well-Known Member

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    I have to leave for work in about 20 minutes so I'm thinking maybe 2.5 for am dose? I can come home at lunch and test him again
     
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  5. Tuxedo Mom

    Tuxedo Mom Well-Known Member

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    I put the other link in my post above

    http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/...g-numbers-on-spreadsheet.167512/#post-1818955

    Antibiotics can take several days to kick in. The UTI could be causing the higher numbers, but you don't want the numbers getting too high while you wait for the ABs to work. The dose is hard to judge because you aren't able to get mid cycle tests at this point, but I would think the 2.5 unit would be safe even if the ABs are starting to work.
     
  6. Lisa and Smoky

    Lisa and Smoky Well-Known Member

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    OK thank you for posting link. I do need to learn how to do that. I will give him the 2.5 and check him again at lunch
     
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  7. Tuxedo Mom

    Tuxedo Mom Well-Known Member

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    To copy a link, just highlight the URL in the browser box from that posting and copy and paste it in your new post. There are fancier ways to do it, but that works well for people like me that are somewhat tech challenged ;)

    You will have to see what the numbers do today and tomorrow. By that time the ABs should be working on the UTI so if the infection is causing the higher numbers you should see an improvement.
     
  8. Lisa and Smoky

    Lisa and Smoky Well-Known Member

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    I gave smoky 2.5 units for his pm shot, he yowled loudly and jumped a little. I have never had that happen before with him. He normally just goes to his chair and waits for the shot, he doesn't even seem to notice it most of the time. Does that mean I hit a nerve or muscle? :( I hate the thought of hurting him, his BG is still high so worried about damage done by constant higher numbers.
     
  9. Chris & China (GA)

    Chris & China (GA) Well-Known Member

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    I just say your reply from yesterday's thread.....ProZinc isn't going to be any cheaper than buying Lantus....especially if you buy the Lantus from Canada

    ProZinc is a U40 insulin and is about $100 for a 10ml vial so that vial only holds 400 units

    Lantus is a U100 insulin so a 10ml vial holds 1000 units ....and if you buy it from Canada, you can get a vial for about $100 (plus $25 shipping) or the better deal is to get the pens (for a total of 1500 units) for about $150 plus shipping

    It's possible that you just hit a sore spot......don't beat yourself up over it....it happens to the best of us!!
     
  10. Lisa and Smoky

    Lisa and Smoky Well-Known Member

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    I'm not sure that I feel comfortable buying insulin that comes all the way from Turkey. I have bought meds overseas in the past and had a bad experience with that. I know that a lot of people have bought insulin from Canada for many years and it has been fine.
    I just don't think I can do it as it would cause an ethical dilemma for me.
     
  11. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    All I can add is that I think you can trust anything purchased from an accredited Canadian pharmacy.
     
  12. Lisa and Smoky

    Lisa and Smoky Well-Known Member

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    I had heard that it is illegal to ship medication of any kind across the Canadian border into the United States.
     
  13. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    You could be right about that.
     
  14. Tuxedo Mom

    Tuxedo Mom Well-Known Member

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    It is illegal for a private individual to ship medication from Canada to the US. Mark's requires a prescription before they will ship. If you have questions you can call Mark's directly at their toll-free number or e-mail them. I am in Canada so I can buy my product at any pharmacy with no problem but there are many US members on here that buy from Mark's with no problem.

    https://rxcanada4less.com/contact.html
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2016
    LizzieInTexas and Kris & Teasel like this.
  15. LizzieInTexas

    LizzieInTexas Well-Known Member

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    I just got the vile I ordered from Mark's this past Monday. Took one week to get here. The box/vile goes through customs and the box is clearly marked that it is medical supplies from a pharmacy.

    Give them a call and talk with them and talk with them about your concerns. They are extremely friendly and helpful.

    Rita

    Marks Marine Pharmacy
    Your neighborhood pharmacy in Canada.

    Toll Free 1-877-888-9265
    Phone 604-325-9265

    https://rxcanada4less.com/
     
  16. JanetNJ

    JanetNJ Well-Known Member

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    Once my cats dose was over 2.5 she reacts to it as well.... It probably stings. Nevertheless it's necessary. I personally would go with 3 u.... 2.5 isn't getting the numbers where you want them.
     
  17. Lisa and Smoky

    Lisa and Smoky Well-Known Member

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    I didn't want to go with the three units just yet. I can't really monitor all day until Sunday so can't keep a close eye on him.
    Smoky is being treated for a UTI since Monday. I was afraid his numbers might suddenly drop too low after he finishes the antibiotics and the infection clears up.
     
  18. Chris & China (GA)

    Chris & China (GA) Well-Known Member

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    The Lantus from Marks doesn't come from Turkey...it's Canadian manufactured

    A lot of those other "website" pharmacies use Turkey and yes, some meds from Marks come from other places, but their Lantus isn't one of them

    Please call and discuss your issues with them. They are really wonderful to work with and will take however long they need to.

    The pharmacy manager's name is Jordan....ask for him. I've sent them a lot of business, and he knows me well
     
  19. Lisa and Smoky

    Lisa and Smoky Well-Known Member

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    I would have to see if my vet will give me a script to fax to Canada. My vet is old fashioned and said they only offer vetsulin and prozinc at their practice. He doesn't hold much stock in human insulin.:(
     
  20. Lisa and Smoky

    Lisa and Smoky Well-Known Member

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    That is amazing to me that your kitty was able to get OTJ in such a short period of time.:smuggrin: I worry about damage being done to smokys organs with his constant high BG numbers.
     
  21. Lisa and Smoky

    Lisa and Smoky Well-Known Member

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    Can they be reached on weekends?
     
  22. Chris & China (GA)

    Chris & China (GA) Well-Known Member

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    I'm not sure (I don't think so) but they're on the west coast and are open until 5pm Pacific time
     
  23. Lisa and Smoky

    Lisa and Smoky Well-Known Member

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    Thank you, I am off work Sunday and Monday so could call them on Monday.
     
  24. Tuxedo Mom

    Tuxedo Mom Well-Known Member

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    On their website it says they are open Monday-Friday 8AM-5PM PST
     
  25. Lisa and Smoky

    Lisa and Smoky Well-Known Member

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    Update for smoky: I emailed his vet and also left voicemail to call me. Smoky seems to be showing signs of pain and his pre shot BG numbers have been between 450 and over 600 this past week. I feel so bad for my fur baby as I have to wait until Monday morning to call his vet. I hate to do a curve on him today as he seems so miserable whenever he is touched. I have been checking him for ketones which have been negative so far.
     
  26. Bernie

    Bernie Member

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    Is there an emergency vet you can take him to , his numbers are way too high,. DKA can set in quickly.
     
  27. Lisa and Smoky

    Lisa and Smoky Well-Known Member

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    I checked his BG at +3 and +6 after am shot. He has a UTI since Monday night and is on an antibiotic. I can take him to his regular vet tomorrow morning. There is an emergency vet near me but they are extremely expensive. See smokys spreadsheet.
     
  28. SweetAngel

    SweetAngel Member

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    Hoping things go well for Smoky at the vets and they can sort out what is wrong. Would the antibiotic have raised his bg?
    x
     
  29. Lisa and Smoky

    Lisa and Smoky Well-Known Member

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    I don't think it would raise his BG, this one has anti-inflammatory properties as well.
     
  30. Tuxedo Mom

    Tuxedo Mom Well-Known Member

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    Was Smoky given a shot of Convenia for the antibiotic?
     
  31. Lisa and Smoky

    Lisa and Smoky Well-Known Member

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    He had a shot of convenia but it was supposed to be for possible bacterial skin infections.
     
  32. Tuxedo Mom

    Tuxedo Mom Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the information. Convenia can be used for skin infections, but is not a good choice for UTIs.
     
  33. Lisa and Smoky

    Lisa and Smoky Well-Known Member

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    He was given metronidizole for the UTI.
     
  34. Lisa and Smoky

    Lisa and Smoky Well-Known Member

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    I think I will check with his vet to make sure the convenia was not given as an antibiotic as well. Are there bad side effects for that med?
     
  35. Tuxedo Mom

    Tuxedo Mom Well-Known Member

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    Metronidizole is one of the antibiotics that can be used to treat UTIs. The best way to find out which AB is best for a UTI is to do a C&S (culture and sensitivity test) which is sent to an outside lab such as IDEXX to find out which AB is most effective for the bacteria present. Unfortunately once a kitty has been on an AB you have to wait about 7-10 days after the AB is finished to do a C&S or the results may not be accurate.

    Convenia has caused a number of side effects in some kitties and dogs. The main problem with convenia is that if there is a side effect or allergic reaction you can't just stop the medication. It is already in the system and the effects can last a long time. Personally I don't allow convenia to be used for my kitties. A lot of people like the fact that they don't have to pill their kitty, but I much prefer the "hassles" of giving pills.
     
  36. Lisa and Smoky

    Lisa and Smoky Well-Known Member

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    All of those things you mentioned are all new to me. I am still new to being a "bean" to a sugar baby. I don't know for sure what has been raising his BG for the past week.
     
  37. Tuxedo Mom

    Tuxedo Mom Well-Known Member

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    I have been a bean to a sugar baby for 2 years now (he has other health issues so will always be diabetic) and I am still learning more as I go along, :bighug:
     
  38. Lisa and Smoky

    Lisa and Smoky Well-Known Member

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    Does anyone know if it is normal for insulin to take months to regulate a cat? Smoky seems to be getting worse on the vetsulin, not better.
     
  39. Lisa and Smoky

    Lisa and Smoky Well-Known Member

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    Same with me, smoky has other health issues too. it just gets overwhelming at times plus trying to absorb all that new info. :facepalm:Thanks for the hug, really needed it.
     
  40. Lisa and Smoky

    Lisa and Smoky Well-Known Member

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    I slept 4 hours last night so need to get to bed soon. I can't take care of my boy the right way if I am burned out from lacking sleep.
     
  41. Tuxedo Mom

    Tuxedo Mom Well-Known Member

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    If there is any sort of infection or inflammation that can cause the numbers to be higher. It is hard to judge at this point if Vetsulin is working well for Smoky or not. Sometimes a different insulin works better for different kitties, But first thing would be to rule out any sort of infection or inflammation.
     
  42. Lisa and Smoky

    Lisa and Smoky Well-Known Member

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    Right now he has the UTI and urinalysis showed a lot of white blood cells in his bladder. The inflammation in his liver, pancreas, and bowels was discovered a month ago. I have no idea how long he had that before i knew about it
     
  43. Tuxedo Mom

    Tuxedo Mom Well-Known Member

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    Hopefully the Metronidizole will have dealt with the UTI, although some UTIs are trickier than others and may require a further round of AB. Is he on a medication for the triaditis..usually a round of Ursodiol is prescribed to start. If the bowel inflammation is not responding well then sometimes budesonide is used. This is a type of steroid so it can affect the glucose levels as well. Budesonide has less systemic effects than other steroids.
     
  44. Lisa and Smoky

    Lisa and Smoky Well-Known Member

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    He is not on any meds for triaditis, I haven't been given an official diagnosis yet on that. I have to call my vet to see about a recheck visit and to get him some pain meds.
     
  45. Lisa and Smoky

    Lisa and Smoky Well-Known Member

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    He is on the antibiotic for 28 days though. My vet wants me to see an internist, he doesn't want to treat smoky for possible triaditis, doesn't feel comfortable doing that. I will pass your suggestions on to him. who knows, maybe he will listen
     
  46. Larry and Kitties

    Larry and Kitties Well-Known Member

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  47. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Teasel has been given Clavaseptin in the past for UTI.
     
  48. Lisa and Smoky

    Lisa and Smoky Well-Known Member

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    I will ask the vet about that med too.
     
  49. Larry and Kitties

    Larry and Kitties Well-Known Member

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    For information, Clavaseptin is just a another manufacturer's name for Clavamox for outside the USA
     
  50. Bernie

    Bernie Member

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    Clavamox is tough on the GI tract, much better options for UIT would be Zeniquin or Orbax tablets, if you are given a liquid it must not contain sorbitol and no ingredients ending in "ose" that is sugar. Many vets just prescribe without checking ingredients.
     
  51. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    I did notice that Teasel was a bit lacklustre (malaise) when he was on Clavamox (Clavaseptin) but had no major GI disruptions like vomiting or diarrhea. Every kitty is different though. :cat:
     
  52. Callie & Patches

    Callie & Patches Well-Known Member

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    I didn't notice any difference when Callie was taking it.
     
  53. Lisa and Smoky

    Lisa and Smoky Well-Known Member

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    I took Smoky to a cats only clinic but the vet there was adamant about using a pet meter. She said the only accurate one is the Alpha Trak 2 and all human meters can't be used to test animal blood. She also insisted that an at home curve isn't accurate, it has to be done in a clinic setting. She also wanted to do a full blood workup including a test for pancreatitis. My question is does he need that again? He just had bloodwork done 2 months ago except they didn't run a fPLI test.
    The only thing I agreed with was that Smoky should be on another insulin. She suggested Prozinc as it is more affordable than Lantus.
     
  54. Lisa and Smoky

    Lisa and Smoky Well-Known Member

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    I took him there for an exam and hopefully to get some pain meds for him. However, this vet won't give out any meds or a different insulin without doing a full blood workup, followed by an in-house curve. Denamarin was a med she had put down to give him.
     
  55. Chris & China (GA)

    Chris & China (GA) Well-Known Member

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    ProZinc really isn't cheaper than Lantus....even using US prices.....ProZinc is a U40 insulin so a 10ml vial only holds 400 units for about $100...Lantus is a U100 insulin so a 10ml vial holds 1000 units for about $285

    If you multiply the cost of ProZinc by 2.5, you get $250 for the same number of units so it's about the same price

    But, if you buy your Lantus from Canada like most of us are, it's a lot cheaper!! It's only $150 for a 5 pack of Lantus pens (plus $25 shipping)....that's 1500 units that will last most cats at least a year....sometimes 2 years
     
  56. SweetAngel

    SweetAngel Member

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    my vet said the curve would be more likely to be accurate if done at home as stress would be less of a factor. Angel did great on prozinc and hoping he does as well again. Good luck, you know what's best for Smoky, she may not be that familiar with the latest on treating diabetes. x
     
  57. Lisa and Smoky

    Lisa and Smoky Well-Known Member

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    I think she is pretty experienced in treating diabetes but gets frustrated if you don't follow her suggestions.
     
  58. Lisa and Smoky

    Lisa and Smoky Well-Known Member

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    How long is a vial of prozinc or Lantus good for? I prefer a vial to the pens. Don't they have expiration dates on them?
     
  59. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    I hadn't read this before I commented on your other thread about needing a new insulin. I hope this new vet's personality isn't a stumbling block for you. I completely disagree about an in clinic curve being more accurate, unless the vet is referring to how BG is measured in clinic. Their instruments are the gold standard and the AlphaTrak comes close. That's why they recommend it. As far as BG numbers go, less stress at home = more reliable BGs for dose determination. My vet encouraged doing a curve at home.

    Because Smoky would be a new patient the vet wants to exercise due diligence in getting a baseline profile before treating/prescribing. This is a professional standard of practice but also to avoid liability. If you can possibly find the funds and can tolerate the new vet's personality in order to tap into her expertise I'd encourage you to proceed so that you can get Smoky feeling better.
     
  60. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    ProZinc only comes in a 10 mL vial and will be effective for 2+ months if refrigerated and handled properly. There's an expiry date on the vial but that refers to an unopened vial. Lantus lasts longer. ProZinc will be more familiar to you in it's action, etc. because you've been using Vetsulin. It generally has a slower onset and longer action though.
     
  61. Tuxedo Mom

    Tuxedo Mom Well-Known Member

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    When I switched vets I had copies of all the blood and lab work that had been done as well as my own home-testing results. Since the BW and labs were only 1 1/2 months old, the new vet did not request new testing at that point. She did the basic examination and we discussed the treatment plan.
     
  62. Lisa and Smoky

    Lisa and Smoky Well-Known Member

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    Smoky had bloodwork done on Sept 1 except they didn't run the test for pancreatitis. I'm not sure if he needs bloodwork done again. This vet also suggested switching to prozinc or Lantus but won't switch him w/o doing bloodwork first. I could take him to his regular vet and get a different insulin w/o having to do bloodwork all over again.
     
  63. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Ultimately it's your choice. Are you still concerned about Smoky being in pain? Are you thinking of asking your regular vet for the pancreatitis test?
     
  64. Lisa and Smoky

    Lisa and Smoky Well-Known Member

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    I am still concerned about him being in pain. I do want to see if my regular vet will run a test for pancreatitis
     
  65. Lisa and Smoky

    Lisa and Smoky Well-Known Member

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    I will have to ask the vet at the cat clinic what she means by bloodwork, she just has down on the estimate complete diabetes profile
     
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