Hitchcock now has Diabetes

Discussion in 'Prozinc / PZI' started by dana moore, Jun 3, 2016.

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  1. dana moore

    dana moore Member

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    Hello everybody its been a long time since I've been on this website. Why Riley is doing great he's in remission but now my cat Hitchcock today was diagnosed with diabetes. I've got to try to remember the protocol for prozinc and what to do when I bring him home from the vet tonight. I do know that he has an infection and he was stressed out and his sugar was 550 at the vet but when I checked it at home before I took them it was 300. The vet is giving him two milliliters of insulin prozinc and he's going to send him home tonight.
    If I remember correctly my cat Riley had the same situation and ended up I was giving him too much insulin because the infection started to subside and he wasn't as stressed out and his number is shot down super low.
    Now I know when I bring Hitchcock home I need to test him before I give him any insulin and if it's below 200 I believe I do not shoot. I'm definitely going to be giving him soft food only this is new to him and I know this can also bring his numbers down but he was showing keytones in his urine today. What is your recommendation as far as giving him his insulin in the morning if his sugar is around three or four hundred? Should I give him 2 milliliters or should I cut it back to a half or 1?
     
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  2. billysmom (GA)

    billysmom (GA) Member

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    You may want to add the ? prefix to your post to get more immediate help. You definately want to be checking urine for ketones. You can get the ketone strips at any pharmacy that sells diabetic supplies.
     
  3. Sharon14

    Sharon14 Well-Known Member

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    Sorry Hitchcock has been diagnosed with diabetes. @Sue and Oliver (GA) @Rachel and @Robin&BB can help with the dosing. Please pick up some ketone test strips and check for ketones daily. Make sure to add lots of water to his food to help flush the ketones out of his system. @Bobbie And Bubba has some experience with ketones, maybe she can add some info.
     
  4. Robin&BB

    Robin&BB Well-Known Member

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    Hi, Dana - Welcome back (although I'm sure you'd rather not be here for this reason). Here is the link to the guidelines for using ProZinc: Protocol for ProZinc/PZI

    I'm glad you're already familiar with the routine, due to having dealt with Riley's bout of diabetes (so happy to hear he's still in remission, btw). If Hitchcock were mine, I'd make certain of what time today the vet gave him a shot of ProZinc and verify what the amount given actually was. I would also recommend checking his BG tonight, too - is always good for you to have more data than less, and I would really want to know how he's processing that shot of insulin the vet gave him, too.
    Could you please clarify this statement? I think you really meant that the vet gave two (2) UNITS of ProZinc - isn't that correct? (Because the entire vial of this insulin is only 10 mL.)

    You are wise to be concerned about whether or not Hitchcock's dose may be too high, as stress hyperglycemia can be pretty common in cats during a vet visit - some cats BG will spike more than 100 pts. higher at the vet's office vs. when they're at home and more relaxed. So my #1 concern would be that you do the following:

    1) Monitor his BG numbers a few times tonight after you get him home to make certain he's not dropping too low. It's important for you to get an idea of how his body is processing that first dose of insulin that the vet gave; this information is really going to help you determine in the morning how much ProZinc you should give him. Please let us know what time the vet gave that dose today, as this will help us tell you when you should be testing his BG levels tonight.

    2) Unless you would need to steer him out of a BG # that is nearing 50 or less on your meter, do not feed him in the two-hour window directly before your morning pre-shot test time. (We don't want his pre-shot BG # falsely raised by food before you decide on whether to shoot and/or what dose to give.)

    3) As soon as you get his morning pre-shot BG #, post this on this forum with the thread title: First Dose of ProZinc @ Home - Need Dosing Advice ASAP. That way you'll get a quick response from advisors. @Rachel and @Bobbie And Bubba are both in the Eastern Time Zone (I'm on California time here in AZ), so I know they will keep an eye out for you if your dosing time is early in the morning there in SC.

    I am glad you plan to keep testing for ketones; very important. If you have any questions about the ProZinc guidelines after you've read through them, please ask us!

    As for food, low-carb canned (less than 10% carbs) is best. Many of us use the Fancy Feast Classic pates; for example, I use the turkey with giblets pate as my cat's main food source - it's only 3% carbs. Keep in mind that if you're switching from a high-carb type food to lower carbs, your kitty's need for insulin may also be less. This is why closely monitoring BG #s when he's first starting on the insulin is so very important. Please print off a copy of the hypo instructions and keep it handy, along with higher carb food & Karo syrup - just in case you should ever need these for a sudden low drop in blood glucose. Here's the link for that:
    Hypo links - be prepared just in case!

    Again, welcome back to FDMB - we'll do everything we can to help you with Hitchcock!:) - Robin






     
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  5. Bobbie And Bubba

    Bobbie And Bubba Well-Known Member

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    Hey Dana ~ so sorry that you have to be back here again. But, as you know, the peeps here are great and so helpful. :)

    About the ketones : what level were the ketones at? Also, it takes longer for the ketones to show up in urine. It shows up immediately in blood. Because of that, I bought a ketone meter (Abbott's Precision Xtra) so that I would know ASAP. The meter is fairly inexpensive around 30 dollars on Amazon. But the strips are very expensive. The cheapest I found them were for about 2.25 /strip at a pharmacy in Canada. It was too difficult for me to get a urine sample as Bubba is very private in the box.

    As long as he is showing ketones, it will be important that you make sure he eats and gets enough water intake. I mix 1/4 cup of water in every 3 oz. can of food I give Bubba AM and PM because of him having ketones. Even though he doesn't have them anymore, I still do this and will continue to do so the rest of his life because he is one of the cats that just doesn't drink water. The water helps to flush them out. That amount of water will make the food soupy so I place it in a dinner size plate so I can spread it around and he eats it just fine. Plus, spreading it out over the large dinner plate slows down his eating.

    You will want to check the ketones at least once a day until there are no more ketones or whenever he goes above 300. Once they have ketones, they can be prone to them again.
     
  6. Sue and Oliver (GA)

    Sue and Oliver (GA) Well-Known Member

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    I remember you and Riley, Dana, (I have really been here a long time!). Sorry to hear about Hotchcock, but glad you know the routine.

    You have already gotten great advice. Let us know when you get some numbers.
     
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  7. Rachel

    Rachel Well-Known Member

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    Just wanted to stop and welcome you back! I know it's not what you wanted, but at least you are already versed in this somewhat.
     
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  8. dana moore

    dana moore Member

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    Okay I brought him home and no sugar was 350 instead of giving him 2 units like the doctor said I gave him only one and it's been 3 hours and it's already down to a hundred so I'm getting freaked out what should I do should I give him honey if it starts going even lower I don't have any gravy food I just have to say and hard food
     
  9. dana moore

    dana moore Member

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    Should I put honey on his gums? I just gave him some hard food cuz I didn't know what else to do
     
  10. dana moore

    dana moore Member

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    I do have key to Ketone testing strips the doctor said he's not really worried about that right now I don't know why butt I'm just concerned that his sugar was going to drop too low
     
  11. dana moore

    dana moore Member

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    Thank you everyone for your replies I love you miss you so much I'm just freaked out right now I haven't had time to read through all of the posts.
     
  12. Sharon14

    Sharon14 Well-Known Member

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    Dana, how is Hitchcock?
     
  13. dana moore

    dana moore Member

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    4+ 80. I did give him hard treats. I have honey ready.
     
  14. Sharon14

    Sharon14 Well-Known Member

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    So glad you didn't give 2u!
     
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  15. dana moore

    dana moore Member

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    I wasn't able to ask the vet all those questions because they close at 6 o'clock and I never even saw to ask if he was fed. The vet did tell me he gave him two units around11:30. He told me to go ahead and give him two more units at 6 o'clock which I thought was odd that's why I only gave him one.He did not give him prozinc. He gave him something else but I use prozinc.
     
  16. dana moore

    dana moore Member

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    How often should I check in now every 10 minutes or so?
     
  17. Sharon14

    Sharon14 Well-Known Member

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    Do you know what he gave?
     
  18. Sue and Oliver (GA)

    Sue and Oliver (GA) Well-Known Member

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    You're doing fine, Dana. Remember 50 is the time we start to seriously intervene. I'd just give him a bit of regular food and retest.in 20 minutes.

    Do you have some high carb gravy food? A teaspoon of the gravy off it would be a good choice if he nears 50.
     
  19. dana moore

    dana moore Member

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    Now 70 it's dropping fast.
     
  20. Sue and Oliver (GA)

    Sue and Oliver (GA) Well-Known Member

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    Do you have high carb food?
     
  21. dana moore

    dana moore Member

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    no I only have honey I can't believe I forgot to get gravy food at the store
     
  22. dana moore

    dana moore Member

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    I just gave him some treats I'll give him some more I don't know if they're high carb or not. The called party treats they were given to me as a donation.
     
  23. Sue and Oliver (GA)

    Sue and Oliver (GA) Well-Known Member

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    I don't know if you remember from Riley, but the process is to steer his numbers with food. So just give him a little bit of regular food and retest in 20 minutes. If he gets to 50, add a tiny bit of honey into his regular food and see if that brings him up or levels him off.

    Just don't let him get filled up. You want him to eat when he needs to, to rise.
     
  24. dana moore

    dana moore Member

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    He's not even interested in the treats anymore. He's an outside cat and I have him in the bathroom and he's more occupy about trying to get out.
     
  25. dana moore

    dana moore Member

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    What about milk he loves milk
     
  26. dana moore

    dana moore Member

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    Is need are different for every cat when is it normally around? And is that the midpoint or when his sugar is the lowest?
     
  27. dana moore

    dana moore Member

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    Nadar I meant
     
  28. dana moore

    dana moore Member

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  29. dana moore

    dana moore Member

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    If he doesn't eat how much honey should I give him
     
  30. dana moore

    dana moore Member

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    Is the human glucometer run higher or lower than the animal
     
  31. Sue and Oliver (GA)

    Sue and Oliver (GA) Well-Known Member

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    You signature says you are using a human meter. Is that correct? If so, the hypo range starts at 50. The nadir is usually around 5-7 hours after the shot.

    65 is still okay. How many hours since the shot?
     
  32. dana moore

    dana moore Member

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  33. Sue and Oliver (GA)

    Sue and Oliver (GA) Well-Known Member

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    Good! The rule is 3 rising tests before you relax.
     
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  34. dana moore

    dana moore Member

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    I gave him one unit at 6 o'clock and it's now 10:35
     
  35. Sue and Oliver (GA)

    Sue and Oliver (GA) Well-Known Member

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    Then he could still drop again. The higher carb treats could be a temporary bump. Keep testing. Paws crossed he continues to rise.
     
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  36. dana moore

    dana moore Member

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    82.
     
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  37. Sue and Oliver (GA)

    Sue and Oliver (GA) Well-Known Member

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  38. dana moore

    dana moore Member

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    92, can I sleep now!!!
     
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  39. Sue and Oliver (GA)

    Sue and Oliver (GA) Well-Known Member

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  40. Sue and Oliver (GA)

    Sue and Oliver (GA) Well-Known Member

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    Good night. Sleep tight.
     
  41. Robin&BB

    Robin&BB Well-Known Member

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    Wow, Dana! (I've been tied up with a local friend's crisis here, so missed all the excitement on your thread...) I am SO glad you only went with 1.0 unit of ProZinc, and that you effectively steered Hitchcock back up tonight (& that @Sue and Oliver (GA) was here to help guide you - she's the best!!!).

    Will be interesting to see what your AMPS # is in the morning - one thing's certain: Hitchcock sure doesn't need a dose of 2 units!

    You did a great job tonight, Dana!:) (When you get a chance, could you get a spreadsheet started for Hitchcock & plug in that dose you gave him tonight, along with all the #s from the BG testing you did? And please update your signature with Hitch's info, since he's the diabetic in the family now being treated instead of Riley.;))
     
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  42. Sarah Smith

    Sarah Smith Member

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    Great call on the lower dose and keeping your boy safe! :bighug:
     
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  43. dana moore

    dana moore Member

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    How do I start a new spreadsheet. His # were 453 amps. I still only gave him 1 unit??? I couldn't get him to eat his food so I had to give him some hard food this morning just so I can give him his insulin
     
  44. dana moore

    dana moore Member

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    Yes Sue is the best! :)
     
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  45. Bobbie And Bubba

    Bobbie And Bubba Well-Known Member

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    Hi Dana ~ what a night you had! I am so glad that you reached back out to this forum and didn't shoot 2 units! ?And I would stick with the one unit for now unless he shows that he needs less or more. Keep posting and everyone will help you with dosing.

    As far as the food, if dry is all he will eat, so be it to get the insulin into him. Some cats are resistant to switching over to low carb wet food. There are some tricks to the trade in making that transition. Just make sure you are giving the lowest carb dry you can find. One of them is Young Again and can only be bought on their website. Another one is EVO.

    This is the link on How to create our spreadsheet. If you have any trouble just yell and someone can help you.
     
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  46. Robin&BB

    Robin&BB Well-Known Member

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    Hi again, Dana - It's fine that you only gave him 1 unit this morning; it's better to "start low, go slow" until you have a clear idea of his nadir and how he's processing that insulin through the cycle. As for the AMPS of 453, it's possible that you're seeing a bit of bouncing this morning because he dropped so significantly during last night's cycle - this can happen if his body's not yet used to going into those lower numbers.

    Were you able to get a +3 test on him this morning? If not, please test his BG now & state which hour in the cycle that is so that we can see how he's doing so far. Thanks!:)
     
  47. dana moore

    dana moore Member

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  48. Sue and Oliver (GA)

    Sue and Oliver (GA) Well-Known Member

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    Robin,

    Dana has two threads going this am. Let's stick with this one.
     
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  49. dana moore

    dana moore Member

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    I do?? Whoops
     
  50. dana moore

    dana moore Member

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    I read that it's better to give soft food with gravy then to give hard treats because the dry food stays in their system longer is that true? I'm going to check his sugar again at 30 minutes
     
  51. Olive & Paula

    Olive & Paula Well-Known Member

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    Hi Dana, that's quite a drop. You might be in for another active day. Hitchcock is going to have you back into this routine very quickly. I can't help with Prozinc, just wanted to say hi and you did a great job last night getting him up safely.
     
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  52. Sue and Oliver (GA)

    Sue and Oliver (GA) Well-Known Member

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    What really works well is to give just a teaspoon of the gravy off the food, rather than the actual food. It has the carbs, but is less likely to fill him up.
     
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  53. dana moore

    dana moore Member

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    96
     
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  54. Robin&BB

    Robin&BB Well-Known Member

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    @Sue and Oliver (GA) - Yeah, see my last post above. Ha, I wasn't quite awake then ...
     
  55. Robin&BB

    Robin&BB Well-Known Member

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    That 96 is still a good number, Dana. And it appears that the drop is slowing down now, but I would recommend you test again in 25-30 so that you can catch him & steer back up a bit with a small amount of low-carb (yes, you could add a touch of gravy then, if you like) before he starts heading down around, say 65-ish. Sue is correct re: You don't want to fill him up with too much food, as you don't really know yet how often you'll be required to steer this cycle.
     
  56. Olive & Paula

    Olive & Paula Well-Known Member

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    I will make this quick. I don't want to clog up the info you need which is more important right now. In regards to Sheba food. Stick to the cans not the perfect portions. I know the cans were okay at I believe 2.5 carbs. I'm waiting to find out about perfect portions. They seem to be much higher (at least the beef is).
     
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  57. dana moore

    dana moore Member

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  58. dana moore

    dana moore Member

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    should I try giving him .5 tonight? Instead of one unit
     
  59. Robin&BB

    Robin&BB Well-Known Member

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    See how he's slowing down now? That's good news! Check again in 30 minutes, though, ok? (I promise you won't have to do quite so much testing in future, but today you need to.)
     
  60. Robin&BB

    Robin&BB Well-Known Member

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    You know, I think that would be wise. Two reasons:

    1) He's obviously dropping a little too much at the 1-unit dose (in terms of where he started at AMPS time), so this should help slow that down some.

    2) Also, you'll be able to see by AMPS tomorrow how that 0.5 unit dose worked for him, and then we can adjust dose from there, if needed.
     
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  61. dana moore

    dana moore Member

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    Awesome, thanks​
     
  62. dana moore

    dana moore Member

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    It's 82 at 4+ he's eating some low carb soft food right now.
     
  63. Robin&BB

    Robin&BB Well-Known Member

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    PERFECT!!! Just so you know ... still need to check in about 45 min or so to make sure that little bump of food has kicked in. There are some kitties whose little bodies will try to drop once again a little later in the cycle, so is a good idea to keep monitoring those BGs this cycle, just in case you need to do another tiny bump of low-carb a little later on.
     
  64. dana moore

    dana moore Member

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    109.
     
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  65. Robin&BB

    Robin&BB Well-Known Member

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    See how nicely that low-carb did the trick?;) You're doing a great job here, Dana. I think you can wait another hour from your 109 test before you check Hitchcock again. (Go put your feet up & relax for a little bit.:)You're earned it!)
     
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  66. dana moore

    dana moore Member

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    Thank you.
     
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  67. dana moore

    dana moore Member

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    It's crazy he's up to 239 already! at7+ is that normal?
     
  68. Robin&BB

    Robin&BB Well-Known Member

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    He's probably bouncing some now, Dana. The important thing is to not over-correct for that bounce, meaning I STILL think you need to lower that dose next pre-shot time. He will bounce until ... he stops. :rolleyes: Is not at all uncommon.

    You may have already told us this, but have you checked ketones today at all?
     
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  69. Robin&BB

    Robin&BB Well-Known Member

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    So even if he spikes you a high pre-shot # at PMPS, it's really better to lower the dose because we don't want too see such an extreme drop like we did today (AMPS = 463, +4 = 82.)

    You can thank your vet for starting this bouncing reaction you're seeing (because the dose he gave was too much), and now you're the one who has to deal with it until Hitch starts leveling out again. (Which he will do, as soon as his body gets more accustomed to the good effects of insulin doses.) But really ... if he were mine, I'd do 0.50 tonight for the dose. Because when you shoot more than it turns out he needs, you can't "un-shoot" that dose.;)
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2016
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  70. dana moore

    dana moore Member

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    No I have not. I will try he hasn't even gone yet as far as I know? Whats best way to test? I have the strips.
     
  71. dana moore

    dana moore Member

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    327 pmps. I only gave him .5 I'm getting ready to chk 1+ How is it that cats don't die all the time from the vets doing this????? This is the second time he's done this to me! I told him Hitchcocks sugar was 300 yesterday but of course when he got to the vet it was 500. He was stressed out. The vet said "This just shows you the difference between your glucometer and ours"!!!! I kept my mouth shut. How does he not realize its stress+infection that has the sugar so high????
     
  72. dana moore

    dana moore Member

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    very strange his BG went up to 435????
     
  73. dana moore

    dana moore Member

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    He did eat a little and I gave him his liquid antibiotic. I don't know if it has sugar or not. Clavomax.
     
  74. Robin&BB

    Robin&BB Well-Known Member

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    I don't know about it having sugar in it per se, but even if it does have some type of flavoring agent that contains it, the amount is probably minimal.
    (Does Hitchcock have a urinary tract infection - is that why he's on the Clavamox?) Bat had to take that for a UTI, and once she was cleared of that infection her #s went down considerably!
    No, actually doesn't surprise me, after that steep drop earlier today. He's "on the trampoline." (Bouncy-bounce.:rolleyes:) And that rise at +1 is part food-spike, too. I'd recommend you check his numbers in the +3 to +5 range, just to see where he's heading tonight at this dose.
    Beats me, Dana. Ha, you probably know a LOT more about effectively treating a diabetic cat than your vet does ...;) (What you just experienced with the vet is something so many of us can relate to!:banghead:)
     
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  75. dana moore

    dana moore Member

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    395 2+ What happened?
     
  76. dana moore

    dana moore Member

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    bouncing I guess. I hope they go down.
     
  77. dana moore

    dana moore Member

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    I gave him Sheba? hmmmmm. Next time I'll stick to Fancy Feast.
     
  78. Robin&BB

    Robin&BB Well-Known Member

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    Well he was at 427 PMPS, then you got 435 @ +1, then 395 @ +2. He's already starting to come down a little.
    I'm not sure exactly what the carb levels are on the Sheba pates ... all I know is that my cat is really carb-sensitive. If I feed her anything that's more than 3% carbs, I definitely see it in her #s later.:banghead: (She dropped into hypo-zone on me earlier today, at a dinky-dose of 0.05 unit - no kidding, that's not a typo - and I had to steer her twice with 5% carb. So I'm wondering how high her PMPS is going to be in about 20 minutes ...)
     
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  79. Carol & Murphy

    Carol & Murphy Well-Known Member

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    Oh no, I just got a few perfect portions
    Dana - welcome but i'm sorry you are back here and oh my, what an introduction - lucky you had experience
     
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  80. dana moore

    dana moore Member

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  81. Robin&BB

    Robin&BB Well-Known Member

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    Good, he's coming down gently. (It's possible that the +1 test was just one of those weird, wonky tests; that happens sometimes). Hopefully, at this smaller dose, you won't see him go "cliff-diving" on you again, as it would be nice for you to get a good night's sleep, wouldn't it?;)
     
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