How to figure out protein/carbs/fat with food not listed on Dr. Pierson food chart?

Discussion in 'Feline Health - (Welcome & Main Forum)' started by Mimis mom, Mar 25, 2020.

  1. Mimis mom

    Mimis mom Well-Known Member

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    I have canned Dave’s formula but it’s the cats meow one and I don’t see that on her food chart. I chose that one as a back up for their raw formula because it has few ingredients, turkey heart and liver.
    But I want to make sure it’s still on a LC list
     
  2. Mimis mom

    Mimis mom Well-Known Member

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  3. Wendy&Neko

    Wendy&Neko Senior Member Moderator

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  4. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

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    Which is an absolute PITA to use.

    What were the "as fed" values Mimi?
    Not perfect, but running the "as fed" values through a simple on-line cat food carb calculator, can give you a rough idea.

    There is supposed to be a carb calculator somewhere on this site, but haven't found it.
    @Marje and Gracie says it exists, and the manual calculation formula in that thread that @Wendy&Neko pointed you to, was because Jill & Alex (GA) had requested something like that.
     
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2020
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  5. Judy and Freckles

    Judy and Freckles Well-Known Member

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  6. Marje and Gracie

    Marje and Gracie Senior Member Moderator

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    That’s not it.


    It’s not really a PITA :cool: It’s just time consuming. And yes, that post was done solely at Jill’s request.

    Here is the link and you just scroll down to the second question. Click on “excel spreadsheet” and save it to your computer. Then you can use it any time.
     
  7. Mimis mom

    Mimis mom Well-Known Member

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    DB0E3573-390D-4073-AEF3-F0C1775C1F34.png I don’t think I need the conversion calculator i believe it already lists it.
    Does this help at all?
     
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  8. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

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    That's great Marje, but how many members here do you expect have Excel on their computers, or tablets or smartphones? Not everyone for sure. So that makes this excel spreadsheet version you linked unusable for all those people that do NOT have Excel on their devices.

    A google version of that carb calc spreadsheet would be much more accessible to people here. Anyone that has a google account could use that shared version, just like they use the SS template. You would NOT have to download it to your computer or need Excel.

    Personally, I have used that manual calculation link that @Wendy&Neko pointed to. It's EXTREMELY time consuming and an absolute nightmare to make sure you did the calculations correctly. I did it for someone a couple of weeks ago, to double check their math for only 2 foods.

    If someone had to use that to check 20 or more foods, they'd give up in frustration in a heartbeat. Why bother? they'd ask themselves.
     
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2020
  9. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

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    Last edited: Mar 26, 2020
  10. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

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    @Mimis mom
    I ran the numbers of the "As Fed" values from your screen image, through "Binky's Original Carb Calculator" and came up with 6.7% carbs for whichever food that is you listed.

    Image is kind of blurry and hard to see.

    So the percent of carbs in the "AS FED" values are not the same as the amount of carbs on a "percent of calories" basis. That "percent of calories" basis is what Dr. Lisa Pierson switched to using on her catinfo.org food chart back in 2017.

    So if you want to do a similar comparison, comparing "apples to apples" as the saying goes, then you need to take the "AS Fed" values from the Daves Pet food website and run the numbers through Binky's calculator, that Marje pointed you to.

    "As fed" simply means moisture included in the calculations.
    DMA is dry matter basis, so the amount of moisture in the food has been removed from the calculation. DMA is not particularly useful, except when comparing a dry food to a wet/canned food.

    https://www.k9natural.com/guaranteed-analysis-vs-typical-analysis-whats-the-difference-2/

    You can get really serious about the carb percentage, or go with a more general calculation. Don't get too obsessed about the carb percentages, unless your cat is really very sensitive to the carbohydrates AND you are sure you have identified that as the case for your cat with increased BG (blood glucose) numbers.
     
  11. Mimis mom

    Mimis mom Well-Known Member

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    Deb, thank you for doing that. I don't know why I was so confused on how to figure it out, and by the time I found a calculator my phone wouldn't let me enter the numbers- probably needed my laptop.

    what is LC percentage again?-
    shoot, 6%? that's kind of high right? :/

    I still don't understand how to save content so I can find it easier- would I be doing it on here or do I bookmark a page?
     
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  12. Mimis mom

    Mimis mom Well-Known Member

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    I think she is pretty sensitive, because I had them on a raw diet for 6 months before she got diagnosed- but this diet had like 5% fruits and vegetables in it (high carb fruits and veggies too- its the brand Primal)
     
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  13. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

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    Low carb is <=10% here on this message board. AAHA guidelines are 12% or under.
    No, 6 to 7% is not high.
    Over 10% is usually too high for many diabetic cats.
    10-15% is medium carb, 16% and up is high carb.

    To save something for later reference, bookmark it in your web browser. I find that the easiest way.
    I've got separate folders within my browser bookmarks, for different topics. Feline diabetes, fun stuff, my local news and weather, other categories too.

    Within those bookmarks, I've created separate folders for sub categories. For instance, within Feline Diabetes, I have separate subfolders for food links, insulin and testing, some of my go to bookmarks for "INFO" threads here on the FDMB, etc. Do what works for you.

    Look what you have set up on your "Preferences."
    Look at what you have setup on your "Alert Preferences."

    To put a "watch" on your thread or someone elses, you need to have that set up in your user profile.
    Or go to the upper right of the thread title, and click on "Watch Thread" to get alerts when there is a reply to a thread.
     
  14. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

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    The Primal is freeze dried nuggets of raw food. So it looks like a dry food, but it's raw food.

    I calculated for the Primal Turkey formula only. Other flavors may be slightly different in carb percentages.
    Using Binky's Excel spreadsheet calc, I get 5.5% carbs.
    Using the Schyderweb cat food carb calc I get 6.5% carbs wet matter basis, 7% carbs dry matter basis.
    http://www.scheyderweb.com/cats/catfood.html

    That is using the min/max values for this Primal food from the Chewy.com website. No "as fed" values available.

    So even though there are fruits and vegetables listed in the ingredients for that Primal Raw food, it looks ok.

    p.s. The Primal Chicken & Salmon freeze dried raw food came out as 0% carbs, based on the min/max values or guaranteed analysis. May actually be higher than that.
     
  15. Mimis mom

    Mimis mom Well-Known Member

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    I used to get the frozen raw
     
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  16. Mimis mom

    Mimis mom Well-Known Member

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    I can't seem to save the excel sheet.. :-/ Does it not work on Mac computers?
     
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  17. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

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    Do you have Excel on your computer?
     
  18. Mimis mom

    Mimis mom Well-Known Member

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    No I don’t...
     
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  19. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

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    That is why you can't use that excel spreadsheet that @Marje and Gracie linked you to.
    It's useless if someone does not have Excel on their computer or tablet.
     
  20. Mimis mom

    Mimis mom Well-Known Member

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  21. Mimis mom

    Mimis mom Well-Known Member

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    If this is true... Then I for SURE know how Mimi got the BETES... :( Because the holistic vet gave me all sorts of supplements before she was diagnosed and after she got a bladder stone removed and I was putting them in these pill pockets.....
     
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  22. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

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    Yes, that on-line calculator gives you a rough estimate of the carbs in a food or treat.
    It's not as accurate as the one that @Marje and Gracie told you to use, but at least you don't need Excel on your device to use it.

    Yes, the Greenies pill pockets really are very high in carbs.
    So are the Greenies hard treats. There is someone in the Prozinc ISG that is constantly using the Greenies hard treats to bring his cats BG levels back up.
    Better to use something else, low carb, to hide a pill in.
    Or get a "pill gun" to give your cat a pill.
    Or learn how to get the pill deep in the back of your cat's mouth, so they have to swallow it, then immediately give a little bit of water via syringe, in the cheek pouch, to "chase the dry pill" and get them to swallow.
     
  23. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

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    Yes, you did the calculation right. Look at the ingredients in the Greenies Pill Pockets.

    Chicken, Glycerin, Wheat Flour, Wheat Gluten, Natural Salmon Flavor, Vegetable Oil, Dried Corn Syrup, Natural Flavor, Dried Cultured Skim Milk, Sodium Bisulfate, Mixed Tocopherols and Citric Acid (preservatives), Rosemary Extract

    The ingredients I've highlighted in red are all high carb sources. Look, it has dried corn syrup. What do you give a cat, that is in really low numbers, and you want to bring that BG up fast? Corn syrup.
     
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  24. Mimis mom

    Mimis mom Well-Known Member

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    I didn't realize corn syrup had that many carbs in it but I guess it would make sense!!!! No wonder its a SPIKE. well, that spike brought her only to 82, so maybe it was a good call saying she needed it.
     
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  25. Mimis mom

    Mimis mom Well-Known Member

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    I also just learned that the UT strength https://www.vetriproline.com/sellsheets/090056H.090.pdf Ive had her on ever since her cystotomy back in April last year could have ALSO contributed to her getting the BETES! And from years of being slightly overweight (she was 15 lbs from age 3-10, and now she's 11 and has been 10-11 lbs the last 6-8 months!)


    it says it has like 43% carbs???!!
     
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  26. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

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  27. Mimis mom

    Mimis mom Well-Known Member

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  28. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

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    You make a copy of it, just like you did with your spreadsheet. Save the copy on your google drive.

    Then you can change your copy and put in the numbers you get from the manufacturer. You call or email the manufacturer of a cat food, and ask for the "as fed" values. You need to ask them for Protein, Fat, Carbohydrate, Fiber and Phosphorus.

    The calculations are done for you, mostly. All you need to do, is enter the figures in the "Amount" column. For Protein, Fat, Carbohydrate, Fiber and Phosphorus.
     
  29. Mimis mom

    Mimis mom Well-Known Member

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    Oh I didn’t do my SS- Marje did it for me... :nailbiting:
    I’m not the best with this.
     
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  30. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

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    Then just use the simply basic carb calculator you found on-line. That is close enough.
     
  31. Elizabeth and Bertie

    Elizabeth and Bertie Well-Known Member

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    The difficulty with US foods is getting the data to do the calculation in the first place, since the 'guaranteed analysis' data isn't sufficiently accurate. Sometimes it's necessary to contact the manufacturer for the current 'as fed' data, or the 'typical analysis', but sometimes one or other of those will be on the manufacturer's website. (But even then, do be aware that pet food data isn't that accurate, and the best we can get is a good guesstimate...)
    Here's two more ways to do the calculation easily, so long as you have the %'s for protein, fat, ash, fibre, and moisture (or, you don't need moisture if the data is 'dry matter').

    There is this online calculator from 'Balance IT':
    https://secure.balanceit.com/tools/_gaconverter/index.php?

    Or there is this calculator created by FDMB member 'Hellolucy':If you click on the link below you can open with Google sheets and save a copy for your own use.
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/1NOyUfaKxNa580Wnz-0c0_kRQgvlMJgnu/view

    Eliz
     
  32. Marje and Gracie

    Marje and Gracie Senior Member Moderator

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    Any time you use guaranteed analysis instead of as-feds or DMB, the results will not be as accurate and I’ve seen some way off to the extent that I’d never use GA values.
     
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  33. Mimis mom

    Mimis mom Well-Known Member

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    So I need the “as fed”? I have to get that from the company right?
     
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  34. Marje and Gracie

    Marje and Gracie Senior Member Moderator

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    Yes although some good companies will have as fed or DMB values on their websites as well as GA.
     
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  35. Wendy&Neko

    Wendy&Neko Senior Member Moderator

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    About pill pockets, there is one that is carb friendly. It is the allergy free duck and pea ones. You get them in the dog section and just break off a piece you need. Sadly several years ago Greenies stopped making a cat version. No wheat or corn syrup in them.
     
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