hypoglycemic behaviors??

My name is Amy and my cat is Scooby. He was just diagnosed with diabetes 5 days ago. When the vet did his curve on Wednesday, his BG was at 322 at 8am. The vet gave him a shot of 3 units (PZI) at 8am and then by 2pm Scooby's BG was at 50. So the vet determined that he would not get a shot that evening and on Thursday I would start with 1.5 units twice a day. I started the insulin on Thursday and observed him all day. He did pretty well.
As of yesterday, he has been very lethargic starting around noon and staying that way until about 5-6pm. This morning, he caught a lizard and ate half of it... he has always done this. But this time he threw it up; this happened about 3 hours after the morning injection. Because he also threw up his breakfast (Primal raw food diet), I fed him some cooked chicken so that he would have something in his stomach since he already had the insulin. He was very lethargic for the rest of the day and seemed a "little out of it". He did not eat the kibble I leave out (EVO) and did not drink water all day. His ears were very pale, not thier usual pink color. At around 5pm, he woke up from a nap and vomitted again, this time just brown liquid. Are these symptoms hypoglycemia?? I gave him some tuna water and he did eat a little of the kibble after that. My other question is should I skip the shot this evening until I talk to the vet tomorrow?
Thank you for any help/advice in advance.
Amy and Scooby

 

Are you hometesting or checking for ketones at home?

If you're not, I think I would call the vet and, personally, I would take the kitty in to be checked.

There's a sticky at the top of the page on hypos. It contains the symptoms and what to do, though I don't know if you kitty is having a hypo. If you are testing the blood at home, that would tell you a lot.

I wish I could be of more help.

 

The best suggestion I can make is to get a meter and test the blood sugar yourself. There's really no other way of knowing for sure. If you can't do that, I guess you could feed some high-carb wet food in the meanwhile. But I highly recommend getting a meter--it takes all the guesswork out and allows you to sleep easier....

 

amy echoing what the others have said. get a meter and test. i think 1 1/2u of pzi is still on the high side for beginning. if you are uncertain or hesitant about getting all the testing equipment might i suggest you lower your dose to 1/2u twice a day and order a newbie kit from me. the link is right below my signature. it will have all you need. all you need to do is pay for shipping and donate a few bucks if you can.
in the mean time we should talk about food.
your cat can have excellent diabetic care or poor diabetic care. stick with us and see that with a few simple changes we can help you be in total control of that decision. and it's not hard, and it's cheaper than going to the vet all the time to find out how your cat is doing.
if you go to my link, go to web store. in the message section of your order please just fill in your name used here on the board. i don't want you to switch diets until your testing so i'll hold off on discussing that.
lori

 

i would have skipped the shot...but it's probably too late as we are in different time zones.
vet's don't always like you taking charge of testing your cat (it robs them of the income)
you don't need your vet's permission to test ok amy.

 

Vomiting is not a usual sign of hypoglycemia. Do you have an ER vet clinic nearby that you could call and describe these symptoms to?

If he is extremely lethargic, not responding to voice or touch in a positive way such as opening his eyes , mrring or purring, he should probably be seen as soon as possible, especially since you don't have a meter and cannot test his blood glucose level.

Try to get him to eat something. Skipping the shot is probably a good idea. For food he needs something with a little carb in it if you suspect his blood glucose is going low, instead of cooked chicken and tuna juice. The EVO dry is fine at this time.

And bravo to you for also feeding a raw food! I'm not sure how a cat eating raw food, if that is his normal diet, became diabetic as a lot of cats become diabetic from eating a diet too high in carbohydrates such as grain filled dry foods (which EVO is not), so may I ask what symptoms you saw which caused you to take him in for a check-up that determined he was diabetic? Is he overweight or has he been sick before this? Has he been treated with steroids for anything?

Sorry for all the questions when he's not feeling well.

 

Vicky maybe he got a steroid shot? so many kitties arrive here due to that.
Marjorie and Gracie were on a great low carb diet...but steroids!!!
I'm also wondering if this diet is new due to the dx and therefore the dose really needs to be lowered until testing.
hope she comes back soon.

 

Everyone has been great with the advice and help! I love this site!!

Looks like I will be getting a home testing kit. Scoob is extremely finicky, he barely likes to be brushed for more than a few strokes before he gets annoyed. But, we will deal with it.
I did skip the shot last night. He did eat his dinner of raw food around 8pm and has perked up quite nicely. Now he is back to being thirsty, but I was going to call the vet this morning to see what I could lower his shot to... I was going to give him just 1/2 a unit this morning.
The diet was a change as of two weeks ago. When I googled his symptoms and diabetes came up, I imediately changed his and my other cat's diets. (My other cat won't eat the raw food but she likes the EVO). He is not overweight and he is only 7... so genetics may be the cause here was what the vet was thinking. He was on Iams Naturals before this diet and I made my own raw mixture(mainly just meet or quail eggs or seafood) that they ate 2 or 3 times per week. No steriods had been given.
This is a funny question but is it ok for him to be eating lizards still? I let the cats outside almost everyday for about a half hr. at a time. He is a BIG hunter; just loves it and since I live in an apartment this is most of his exercise for the day. He usually eats lizards about twice a week. If I see that he catches one I try to let it free, but sometimes its not always the case.

Thank you to everyone again!
Amy and Scooby

 

Lisa,
I just ordered a kit...
Thank you!
Amy

 

Amy,

Thanks for coming to FDMB and caring so much for your sweet kitty!

Simply changing the diet to lower carbs- especially spiecies apporpriate raw diet, can lower the blood glucose by 100 points over night ( happened in my own Paul-Kyle).

Additionally, glucose levels tend to show higher at the vets office due to stress levels there.

The lower carb combined with being at home and comfortable ( less stress) it is likley that the glucose levels have lowered considerably and the shot you are giving for the higher levels is now too much for the lower levels.

Does that make sense?

It is uber important that you test at home if it is at all possible.

There is a potential to have your cat diet controlled and no longer need to give bottled insuin...the easiest way to know this is ti home test.

I use the relion micro from walmart b/c it is cheap and the strips are available wherever there is a walmart ( every 2 miles, right?! LOL! ) and mostly 24/7.

Others here use Freestyle, True Track, Avivva and others....

check out www.catinfo.org for meter suggestions or ask here on the website what other people use.

Also advisable is to pick up ketostix to test for ketones. They are strips you hold under kitty while peeing or catch urine and dip strip...

I'm sorry to advise that many vets are not up to speed with feline diabetes treatment protocol. I think many of them believe that people won't put the effort into testing or that the vet will be liable if you make your own decisions...or as Lori pointed out- it relives them of income when you take charge.

In any case, you may meet some resistance from your vet over hometesting or lowering a dose...do what your gut says, you don't need your vets permission to practice proper protocols.

(((hugs)))

hang in there!

 

Just want to add that learning to test can be frustrating for both you and kitty, but it is SO worth it!

I have two diabetics. The first, Beau, was so patient with me while I learned to test. He didn't like it when I was all stressed and awkward about it, but he endured it. Soon, it because a time of bonding where he would come to be tested and purr the whole time. I think the keys are using a rice sock to warm the ear, getting the right lancet*, and giving treats afterwards. Beau is diet controlled now (no more insulin - just had his one year anniversary) so I don't test very often (about once a month now). I think he misses it and he was very jealous of the "new" cat getting all my attention - see below.

My second diabetic, Jeddie, I adopted because he was going to be PTS if no one took him. His former owner didn't want to deal with treatment. I had him diet controlled for about 3 months, but he is back on insulin. I did try to test from the beginning, but he was not having any of it. I got bit hard the first attempt, but that was the day after I got him and he was all discombobulated from being rehomed, etc. I had to use gloves at first and "burrito" him in a thick blanket. I got a cheap polar fleece blanket and cut it in half (it was actually cheaper than polar fleece fabric or I would have done that). You have to wrap them so you can access their ears, but they can't back out of it backwards or get there front paws out to claw at you. Now he tolerates it and I don't have to burrito him anymore, but he often protests and tries to get away.

The point is that you can get most cats to accept the testing and a lot of them learn to enjoy it.

*I have to stress that the only lancets I will use are BD Ultra Fine II ones-30 gauge (green, white and orange box). I have tried about 6 brands of "ultra fine" 30 gauge ones and none of them worked as well. I could not get blood from Beau, my testing prince, with them. It was like his ear turned to shoe leather, but the BD ones made his ear feel like butter. Also, I freehand the lancet rather than use a lancing pen. I feel I have more control over it and can see where I am aiming. The clicking bothered Beau and he learned to anticipate it and flicked his ear one time. Oy! I torn it! I felt so bad. For the same reason, I turned off the beeping of the meter with Jeddie.

Good luck! Ask any questions here. Someone here has solved whatever testing problem you might encounter.

 

hi amy, hope you check in in the next hour or so...sending out your kit, have a few questions for you. have you checked for ketones? what syringe type are you using u100 or u40, it's actually good to have both.
let me know...i'll send syringes both types if i don't hear from you, but i only have a couple of keto-stix vials and reserve those for untested or positive tested kitties.
you should educate yourself on both syringe types is why i'm sending both.
great that you ordered so quike :mrgreen:
lori
and tomtom

 

This site and everyone's experiences are so educational; i'm so grateful!

Hi lori, sorry i couldnt check, i was at work. I have u100 29 gauge right now for syringes...i only have the regular urine glucose strips, but nothing that tests for the ketones. which so far scooby hasnt let me near him while he pees, apparently he likes his privacy.
i spoke with my vet today and he wanted to use no insulin for the next couple of days since now he has been on his new diet (fully) for a week. he will check his urine on thursday (thats the first day i can get there), if glucose is present he said he would like to do another curve, but he feels that maybe since the change in diet that will be enough. if not he said we will start him on .5units friday after the curve. Does this sound like the right thing to do in your opinion? if i notice he is still drinking a lot of water and urinating a lot, would i need to do another curve? could i just start him on .5units anyway? just for the sake of saving money on vets bills i would like to avoid that $100 charge if i could use common sense...

 

amy you are going to be doing your own curves from now on. your kit is in the mail. the real urine test he needs is for ketones. you should recieve your package by wed. i think.
i'm going to link you to the best utube that shows one of our memeber doing the test. brb

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zE12-4fVn8
amy watch and learn...your cat will likely grow to love the routine of this...this is exactly what you'll be doing.
as for not dosing...i don't really know for sure.
i suppose waiting for the kit is the smart thing to do.

 

actually if he is drinking and peeing alot go ahead with the 1/2 unit.
if you ask me your vet is ummm, i'd better not say. a glucose urine test should not determine if he needs a curve or not. sheesh.
the $ you will save and the peace of mind you will have doing this yourself is priceless.

 

lori,
we will see how this will go when i get the kit! and as far as vets go... i think i will probably be looking for another that may be more experienced.

 

please keep us posted even now about your kitty, before kit arrives. certain behaviors will indicate you will want to shoot. even a micro dose is better than nothing. and we often find it difficult to find a vet who is as up to date as this board is on feline diabetes. wish it were'nt so.
did you watch the video?

 

btw, lizards are carb free so he can eat them if he must :lol:
and are you certain you know how to find a unit much less a half unit on the U100? is your insulin a u40 insulin, it should say so on the bottle.

 

pzi 100, u100 syringe, yes i watched the video... scooby will never sit that still but i will just have to figure something out. right now scooby is pretty hungry. he ate a good breakfast this morning, but didn't really eat any kibble during the day. i just fed him 1 biscuit of the raw food and 1/2 can of EVO... its not a full serving but he hasn't eaten that much in a couple days. he has wanted to drink a couple times at the sink but it wasn't as much as he had been drinking since before the insulin. he did chase my other cat around the house... he hasn't done that in a week!

 

yes, since i have been doing 1.5 units, .5 isn't hard to read.... i think i got use to it

 

oh wait, the syringe is 3/10cc... sorry

 

ok, hope your syringe has half unit markings.
how is your furry doing?

 

He is doing ok- hes been pretty hungry and a little thirsty, but not as bad as it was before we started the insulin.

 

i bet the diet is really helping too.

 

Any tips on collecting urine? I have the strips and was going to test him right when i get home (or whenever he gets into the litterbox)...

 

Calliope would not allow me to enter her space during her very private litterbox moments. I had to improvise. I got a disposable litter box which I put inside a liner/garbage bag. I put just a wee bit of litter in it and I stalked it every time I thought she was headed that way. When she peed, it puddled in the box and I was right there with my testing stick.

Others have been able to collect it by sticking the stick in the urine as the cat peed or collected some in a ladle or spoon as the cat peed. That was not possible with Calliope.

Hope this gives you some ideas!

 

I will try that... thanks!

 

or if kitty allow, once they start peeing they cannot stop so just stick the stick in the stream.

 

well scooby would not go in the litterbox with the bag in there (neither would my other cat) and by 11 last night, I gave up and took it out. He is drinking less and peeing less, he is eating normally, but his third eyelid has come back across his eye 1/4 of the way. I know this means that there is still something wrong, so we will be going back to the vet tomorrow. :YMSIGH:

 

How was he diagnosed? Did your vet run a fructosamine test or do a simple blood glucose test?

Personally, I wouldn't wait another day. I'd consider giving a token dose (eg 0.5 units) and doing whatever I could to get a urine test for ketones. It is highly likely that the 3 units was too much but that doesn't mean he doesn't need insulin. When Squeak was on insulin, he needed very little. I tried taking him off of insulin too quickly and he got sick again, and so I resumed a small dose until he was finally off of it altogether.

Jen

 

You could try it without the bag if the bag is the problem. I used the bag for easy cleanup. You can do the same thing without the bag with very little litter. The real point is that the urine can puddle so you can test. I didn't let my other cats go to that litter box while I was waiting for Calliope to give me a sample to make sure I got Calliope's pee and no one else's. I just had Calliope in the room where one of the boxes is always located with her food and water until she went. It was the only way I could get it done.

 

hopeing kit arrives today...this will add so much more to the discussion.

 

I happened to catch him going pee and got a sample... i told the vet. he wanted me to bring him in, which is what i did today. he said he is in the middle group which means he has ketones present but it isn't completely at the unhealthy phase. so vet said to start him back on insulin- 1unit twice a day. does this sound like too much? i asked if i could start him on 1/2 unit but he said because of the ketones present he would thought we should start at 1.
I was off from work today so I am not sure if kit arrived there today (had it shipped there). Is the meter one that also takes a ketone reading? if not, i think i may purchase that special litter box to make it easier.
also, vet wasn't familiar with the food i am giving him- EVO. I was told and read that this is a good choice for cats with diabetes. Vet uses Purina DM (i think is what he said). EVO is fine for him or am i mistaken? I kinda feel that vet is pushing the sale of his food since he sells it in his office.

 

So he has moderate ketones, has been off of insulin, and the vet sent him home? Yikes!

Any chance you can call another clinic for a second opinion?

meantime...he needs food, he needs some insulin, and he needs fluids. And you need to keep checking his urine whenever possible.

 

vet wanted me to take him home where he wouldn't be stressed, give him food and give him insulin. i will keep testing for ketones. he said that if you still test for ketones by saturday that i would have to bring him back in. his test from last wednesday did not show any ketones. we took him off insulin from monday morning until this morning so those days without the insulin probably led to the ketones. vet said we didn't need to be too concerned yet as long as within the next couple days the ketones diminsh/diasppear. but i am researching for another vet that may give me a second opinon.

 

I haven't had any experience with ketones, but I'd be very concerned about having moderate ketones and the cat not at the vet's. I think I'd call another vet's office for another opinion. I wish I could help more.

 

amy i don't know for sure if i sent you a vial of keto-stix....i don't normally unless i talk to the person about it.
you are feeding the correct food, vet wants to make a buck, you were right.
did vet get a bg reading

 

no, just did urine strip bc scooby was not having any of the things they wanted to do to him. it was a very stressful visit. i took him in at 9am and they had to keep him so they could try to get urine and blood. they could only get urine, but stip indicated a high amount of glucose

 

omg, it would have been sooo easy for vet to get blood for bg test. wtf? 1u based on urine sugar which is not current bg.
hope you still only shot 1u as we have not data and no #'s
no kit yet so def. tomorow.
just make sure your ready to test immediatly. do your homework now k.

 

ok-yes only did 1 u-thanks.

 

Tomorrow, could you PLEASE call around for a new vet? They sound like they do not know what they are doing and it is scaring me!

 

yes, i'm with jen...only i went to 3 vets so far and never found one i trusted.
i like taking care of his dire beasties on my own with knowledge here on the board.
hopefully you can too.
i really meant to say 1/2u but accidently said 1u.
morning 1/2u
do we have any #'s on this kitty at all?

 

i mean besides the 320 he was dx'd at ...then practically hypo'd on 3U's.
vet's office doing that! 320 is not a high dx at the vet's #...always higher at vet and now you've changed diet.
1.2 u ok
till meter comes.

 

wonder if that vet even knows how to read a glucose/ketone stick?
when you get the vial you'll see it has to be read at exact times...glucose at EXACTLY 15 seconds and ketones at EXACTY 30 seconds. if you wait longer the color just gets darker and darker indicating higher amounts which are not accurate.

 

How is everything today?

 

Scoob is doing ok, thanks for checking in! i had already given him the 1 unit injection (against my better judgement) before lori suggested (and confirmed my thought process) just 1/2 unit. in the middle of the night i got up to check on him. he seemed a little out of it so i brought him a small handful of kibble which he ate right away... so i feel that 1/2 unit is the way to go, which is what i gave him this morning. I have been trying to have him drink more water as well, so I have been flavoring the water with either a little tuna juice or the juice from the canned food.
He did eat pretty well this moring. I found a new vet (a girl which scoob prefers anyway) we will be visitng her tomorrow morning. I still haven't recieved the home monitor kit and if I can't get a urine sample this evening (I work tomorrow)I don't want to go to panic mode over the weekend if the ketone reading isn't decreasing by sunday. So i figured the new vet will test his blood and help me at least with an answer so I am not left wondering until Monday. Lets keep our fingers crossed!

 

I'm so glad you found a new vet and will be going in, tomorrow! I can't help but mention that I'm concerned that you haven't been able to test the ketones at home. Be diligent about any symptoms between now and the vet visit. We'll be so anxious to hear bout that!! Good vibes until then!

 

P.S. was there any way for the new vet to work y'all in today? Does she know there were ketones present? I meant to ask that.

 

She couldn't get me in today because she was actually doing an emergency surgery on two dogs that got into something... I a, still trying to test urine again tonight, hopefully now that we have a full day behind us of more liquids he will have to go more often

 

Hang in there!

 

i just got a urine sample... high glucose but ketones were between negative and trace i am content with that for now as the glucose part will be a work in progress

 

Good news on the ketones! I feel much better now. Hope the glucose will come down. You can talk to your vet, but if the glucose remains elevated, you should keep testing for the ketones. I'm so happy to hear that you got that test!

 

it was actually much easier to sneak up behind him when we went outside than in the litterbox. maybe that will be our method from now on... looking forward to getting his bg test tomorrow morning just to see where it is relative to last week.

 

Whatever works! Just so glad you go it!

Hopefully, your kit will arrive and you can start hometesting, too! Then, you'll really be set.

 

vet visit a little diappointing. she wanted to do blood work for a complete work up... check his liver, thyroid, etc. i'm not sure if the other vet did a complete workup (still waiting for them to fax the chart). i'm sure its a good idea but she wanted to charge $240 for the blood work- i thought that was ridiculous. she said she wanted the complete workup bc she thought that it was strange that even on 1 unit he was still crashing/acting disoriented. I told her that since we have been doing 1/2 unit now for a full day and a half, he has already been acting much more chipper, and that i thought it was the right dosage. she acted surprised but said... "well whatever works"

then she wanted to put him on antibiotics becasue he has a mild case of gingivitus. i told her that for a mild case i would rather not put him on antibiotics (since we are still in the first few days with the new dosage of insulin regulations). i have a teeth cleaning kit that i will use more regularly on scooby to solve that issue. she also wanted me to buy her food (hills d/m) and she wanted me to buy these teeth cleaning bricks that would be used as treats. she said they were low in carbs so it would be ok for him. i chose not to do any of those things.

bottom line- not compeltely happy with her and i will continue the search for another vet. but as long as scooby is acting better than he was (and then i can learn to incorporate the home testing) i am going to be staying away from the vets office.

 

and most importantly she doesn't test onsite for bg??? i find that weird. that was what i was mostly there for...

 

i'm not even kidding amy, she should be reported. thank god you have us to walk you thru this. i fear what may have happened otherwise. kit yet?

 

Amy,

I'm so very sorry after all this wait that your vet visit was disappointing, to say the least. You do need to find a vet, though, for any issues that arise which would require a vet and for the RX for your insulin. I see that you're in FL, but I don't know where. If you post your city/town, there may be a mbr who lives near you and has a vet recommendation. In the meantime, I would call some vets and see if you can find out from the vet or vet tech or whoever about the vet's approach to treating FD.

******BEFORE you put your city or town, though, I think it's a good idea to take the name of the place where you work out of your profile info. This is a public message board and anyone can read it besides those of us who are here to help kitties.

Start a thread asking for vets in or near your city in the subject line. Then, we can see if we have some folks near you, who can help you out.

The sooner you can put some info in your signature of the profile, the better. Include your insulin, the DX date, food your feeding and that ketones were present. Also whether you are hometesting yet, so folks will have that and stop asking you the same thing over and over.

So sorry this vet was not a good one for you and scooby.

 

no kit yet. yes, i looked ont he members list and someone that lived near me was listed, but when i searched for them they did not come up... maybe they are inactive?? I got some other recommendations from people on facebook, but posting that is a good idea. I will update my profile tonight when I get home. Until then, Scooby seems to be doing better than the other day!

 

do i need i a complete blood work- up? i'm not sure if it is necessary? I got the chart fromt he other vet and they hadn't done one...

 

A complete blood workup may not be necessary. I'd just show that to the next vet.

Hopefully, some folks will come along and give some vet suggestions. Bump your thread is you need to for a few days, if you don't get many responses. Weekends can be slow.

I don't know how up to date that member list is. Could be someone who was a member when we were on the older board.