I do not have a diabetic cat

Discussion in 'Welcome to the Group - Post an Introduction Here' started by TamanduaGirl, Dec 24, 2014.

  1. TamanduaGirl

    TamanduaGirl Member

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    Dec 24, 2014
    Wait don't throw me off the board yet. I have a diabetic anteater and the diabetic dog forum owner suggested this might be the place to get help since dogs are type 1 and cats or more often type 2. And no this isn't a prank this is us https://www.facebook.com/pages/Pua-Tamandua/107868115902036

    Looking at steps 3 and 4 on here https://www.facebook.com/pages/Pua-Tamandua/107868115902036 does that mean I should consider Pua's blood sugar controlled if it is <300 to 100+?

    She is currently getting <110 lowest daily value and mid 200's lik3 237-220 highest after meal value. We are achieving this with herbal supplements with the vets blessing because we are both a bit apprehensive of using medications or insulin on her since we would be flying blind with no cases of precedent to rely on and getting blood samples from her is a difficult and stressful event. I thought she needed to be lower but if we pretend for a minute she's a cat this range is considered okay?

    I am using an alphatrack with freestyle strip in it set at 24. I burned through a ton of strips to figure out what setting and combo got the most accurate readings for her. Before that I thought we had her reasonably controlled due to falsely low readings. Then she started having massive blood sugar spikes due to the exercise of going on walks/hikes. She looked poisoned which is what I thought happened the first time. Figured they sprayed the park grass with something. Disorientation, shaky movements, lethargy, puking, fear. The first time our regular vet was in surgery and the stand in couldn't manage to get blood to test sugar. Do you think her numbers are low enough to make taking her for hikes safe again?
     
  2. PumpkinsMom

    PumpkinsMom Member

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    Oct 5, 2011
    Wow, she is just the cutest!
     
  3. BJM

    BJM Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2010
    Well I'm game for a challenge!
    If you can get fresh urine samples, you might also use KetoDiaStix to test for ketones and glucose in the urine. It isn't as precise as blood testing, however ketones can be a danger sign. They form as a by-product of fat breakdown; too many may indicate diabetic ketoacidosis (DKA), a potentially fatal complication of diabetes.

    Ideally, you want to shift food away from carbohydrates, towards protein and fats. What are you feeding? It might be a matter of adjusting proportions of food types.

    Also, if you are meal feeding, it may help to break it up into mini-meals so that the glucose comes in at lower amounts more frequently, rather that spiking with meals. I have the impression that an anteater eats slowly, so this may be a non-issue.
     
  4. Vyktors Mum

    Vyktors Mum Well-Known Member

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    Nov 15, 2011
    Firstly - WOW!

    Can't say that I know anything about anteaters, e.g. what there normal blood glucose range should be, proper diet etc. so I don't know if you can follow the 'cat' treatment or guidelines.

    In relation to exercise - in cats, humans and dogs at least - exercise would cause the blood glucose level to reduce not to spike. Low blood glucose COULD be responsible for the symptoms you've noted. Don't know how knowledgeable your vet is about anteaters I would be consulting a specialist if your vet's just a regular 'GP'
     
  5. TamanduaGirl

    TamanduaGirl Member

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    Dec 24, 2014
    Thank you, PumpkinsMom

    BJM, I was just about to order the KetoSticks but the KetoDiaStix make more sense, thanks. She generally holds her pee all day then pees huge when she first gets up so testing that should be doable. DKA is a worry with her symptoms with the hikes but the first time I did rush her to the vet but since we live an hour away she was pretty much all better when we got there and was totally after being there a bit. The second time wasn't as intense and knew she recovered on her own the first time so let her rest but took her BG on the meter after she had rested some it was upper 300's but that was before I knew the meter was reading low so it was surely much higher.

    The diet is 3 cups ground beef 1 cup dried ants or silkworm pupae, 1 cup beef heart, 1 cup wheat bran, 1/3 cup spinach or fresh thyme(or 1tsp dried). 1 cup ground chia seeds, 2 tbls nutritional yeast.


    She gets blue cheese and soaked chia seeds for treats and to mix her supplements in. She will steal a bit of Aurora(other anteater)'s soup(same food but Pua eats hers semi-solid). I drizzle a couple spoonfuls of yogurt on top of that because Aurora will literally starve herself to death if I don't. I know some people say that without meaning it but it's 100% true. The yogurt is plain but eating a good amount of it sends Pua's sugar sky high(well 400+ on the old meter system) but she really just gets a tiny bit this way so that's pretty much the extent of her carbs and unavoidable.

    Anteaters get little to no sugars and fats in the wild so maybe lowering the fat content in the beef could help but most things say fat is good, but maybe for anteaters? She will get ants as treats again once we can get our hands on the kind she is willing to eat.

    They are basically free fed. I put their food out at night when they get up then they eat all night on and off since they are nocturnal. Aurora will only eat her soup when it's cold though so I'll change her bowl usually at least once a night. The diet would be 3tbls of chia seeds but I upped it to up the fiber, plus Pua loves them. Pua lost weight over the summer but she was also not getting sugary treeats any more(like plain yogurt, not like I was giving her candy or anything) plus the modified diet and her weight has now stabilized and is a good weight she was a bit tubby before.

    Vytors Mum, The species tested glucose levels are mean 72 low 33 high 175 These aren't exactly established norms but averages from zoo tamanduas that were tested but as close as we can get right now. Aurora has always tested low 40's at the vet but she has been tested so far just when off food. I hope to get her tested while well and eating in the spring once it warms up. I haven't tried any home testing on her since she is a rescue with title trust and lots of fear as it is and it's not needed for her just wanted for info reasons.

    My vet is not an expert but they are rare enough none exists. There is a vet about 4 hours from here that sees quite a few due to the Conservation center being near him but he hasn't dealt with diabetes in them so there's no point in making the trip with her. There is/was a group doing a study in diabetes in tamandua but they have failed to return any messages or offer any help and haven't published any findings yet.


    My vet was confused by her glucose going up from exercise too. Exercise should decrease BG but even in people it can sometimes raise it, it seems it's really rare and she's just unlucky. Due to either not enough insulin or insulin resistance the glucose doesn't get to the cells in enough quantity so the cells continue sending out signals that they need glucose since they are using it fast from exercise, even with high levels in the blood since it's not getting to the cells in enough quantity so the glucose keeps being released and so keeps climbing. Human sites recommend checking BG at intervals during exercise but that's not doable for her. Maybe checking before hand and if it's low enough even if it spikes up wont go as high.

    Edit: another thing that points to the episodes being high BG is when I had her out in the summer she did fine when I made sure to give her supplements shortly before but then when it happened again I had just been giving them at night. What she was getting has been adjusted since finding out she was higher than I thought based on the home tests and I have changed to giving them 3 times a day to get the results we are seeing now. Twice was still well over 300 on the highs. Will look into something else possibly being wrong with her though if it keeps happening and her BG is well controlled.
     
    Last edited: Dec 24, 2014
  6. Vyktors Mum

    Vyktors Mum Well-Known Member

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    Nov 15, 2011
    I found an article (about humans) that might be helpful for you at http://www.livestrong.com/article/57559-high-blood-sugar-after-exercise/#page=1 it talks about the levels you need to be below for safely exercising - you should be able to get a general idea from the urine sticks even if you can't test every time before you go and it also talks about doing less intense exercise if it's raising your bg - i.e. Maybe she should do shorter regular walks rather than long hikes.

    In relation to the fat in her diet - if it's not a natural part of an anteaters diet (and I dont imagine that ants have much fat on them) I would try to reduce it as much as possible. My theory for optimum health for all creatures is to make the diet as natural as possible.

    I really wish I had better answers for you. She's very lucky to have someone like you looking out for her welfare.
     
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  7. rhiannon and shadow (GA)

    rhiannon and shadow (GA) Well-Known Member

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    Jul 9, 2012
    Wow this is really interesting.
    I just happen to have a bag of Chia seeds and went to look up the carb %. It says 5g carb per tablespoon. You said you were giving 1 Cup.
    If this is just to add fiber, I would start looking for other resources.

    for cats, many here use pumpkin.
    And you might look for yogurt with less sugar in it. There are so many different ones available now.
    I know the one I prefer for myself has more sugar in it than the other brands.

    I agree with the others that you want to find a diet as close to their natural diet as possible.
    I hope you are able to get those ants soon.
    Seems like that might be something to stock up on.
     
  8. Marje and Gracie

    Marje and Gracie Well-Known Member

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    May 30, 2010
    I don't want to be a buzz-kill and especially not on Christmas, but we are not "equipped" here to offer advice on a diabetic anteater.

    As a wildlife biologist, I have to say that diabetes in a wild species is not normal. Second, we do not know how the metabolism of an anteater works in comparison to a cat. Third, we don't know a normal glucose level.

    Wild animals have very specific dietary needs and we, in the FDMB, do not have that knowledge.

    My suggestion would be to contact some zoo vets. I do wish you the best and hope you have a Merry Christmas.
     
    Last edited: Dec 25, 2014
  9. Hillary & Maui (GA)

    Hillary & Maui (GA) Well-Known Member

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    Dec 28, 2009
    OK you don't have a cat, you have an anteater - First that's way cool. Welcome to the group! We are all going to learn here and while yes we are cat centric, we certainly can offer you ideas and provide information that work for our cats that may be able to be modified/applied to an anteater.

    And our (ok my rule is) gotta see lots of pics of your family and stories about their antics! (no pun intended). Since none of us have any experience with anteaters. Although the more I think about it, there is one member (not sure if she is still on here or just on FB). that works at a zoo and may have experience/exposure to anteaters. I will alert her on FB and ask her to come here to see if she can help.

    Now for some observations and thoughts.

    1) Many of us have found that using the freestyle lite meters with butterfly strips, gives incorrect readings with out cats. Additionally, meters with TRU in the name also give false readings. These meters are typically the "store brand" sold in Walgreen's, CVS, etc.

    That being said, using an alphatrak with freestyle strips, you may find that you are not getting accurate readings.

    Many purchase the Relion brand (confirm, micro, prime) from Walmart. If that is not an option, I found that Bayer Contour is an excellent meter and only requires a small blood sample.

    2) You mention that you are feeding yogurt. Most yogurt has sugar in it, even plain version. Using any with the artifical or alternative sweeteners is not good cause of the chemical makeup of it. What I believe you want is the cultures and probiotics that is in yogurt.

    You could try some other products, one that comes to mind is something that we sprinkle on cat's food called Forti Flora - made by Purina. Not sure if an anteater would like this, but might be worth checking out.

    3) Not sure what the carb content of bran is, but thinking because it's a grain food, it may be higher in carbs than you want to use. Looking for an alternative may also help.

    4) How do you blood test on an anteater? We test our cat's ear, what body part are you testing? You mentioned that you have problems testing, can you describe your procedure and maybe we can help with other ideas.

    For example, we give treats, either food or in Maui's case a nice brushing after testing. what does your anteater like? we also find over time that the cat's are trained to come or know when testing time is and some even will sit in their "spot" and meow waiting for their test/treat.
     
  10. Sienne and Gabby (GA)

    Sienne and Gabby (GA) Well-Known Member

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    Dec 28, 2009
    Like Marje, I am very reticent to give advice. What may be a perfectly reasonable diet for a cat -- a species that is an obligate carnivore -- may cause nutritional deficiencies in an anteater. I haven't a clue how an anteater metabolizes insulin. Does your anteater require one shot a day? Two? We don't even know what insulin would be best recommended and we see lots of cats coming here on insulin that is really not well suited for cats so who knows what's appropriate for an anteater.

    The Columbus zoo is the largest in the country. It's also connected to Ohio State's vet school. They may be a place to start. Alternatively, Cornell has one of the best vet schools in the country. Either of those places may be able to best advise you. We can try to offer support and help you to sort out the information you're getting but I would hate to make a recommendation that might end up doing harm.
     
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  11. Amy&TrixieCat

    Amy&TrixieCat Well-Known Member

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    Feb 14, 2011
    Likewise, I have absolutely know knowledge on anteaters so I'm not comfortable advising you, but I do want to say that your dedication to your sweet girl is inspirational! She is adorable! I hope you are able to figure out what is going on with her, and if you don't mind keeping us updated, I think we'd all love to know how she is doing!
     
  12. BJM

    BJM Well-Known Member

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    Oct 6, 2010
    I'm wondering if plain Greek yogurt might have fewer carbs in it. Something to look up.

    Definitely search around zoos or wild life preserves for exotic species vets; look for those who deal with similar animals. (er, what are in the same family as anteaters?)
     
  13. julie & punkin (ga)

    julie & punkin (ga) Well-Known Member

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    Feb 17, 2011
    What an interesting situation. I agree that we really aren't equipped to help you, unfortunately. I'd hate for us to give you advice based upon what we know about diabetic cats and have it be wrong for anteaters. I think contacting a zoo is a great idea.

    I'm wondering what the basis is for her diet - in the wild they wouldn't be eating bran or yogurt. For any animal, diabetic or not, the diet should be as close to what they would eat in the wild as possible.

    Good luck to you. I hope you can find a source for accurate information.
     
  14. Hillary & Maui (GA)

    Hillary & Maui (GA) Well-Known Member

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    Dec 28, 2009
    The friend I mentioned is talking with her zoo friends - who I think is with the Columbus zoo actually to see what they know about this and how they can help you - will see if we can get you to connect directly with them. In the meantime, while we mainly only know about cats - we can provide you general information and what we do with our cats - whether that can transfer to an anteater, I don't know, but basic information may be helpful...hopefully the zoo people can help better! Paws crossed.
     
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  15. Ann & Tess GA

    Ann & Tess GA Well-Known Member

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    Jan 7, 2010
    This is a great site to find the nutritional values for foods. After you find the nutritional page for the food look down towards the bottom for detailed breakdowns.
     
  16. BJM

    BJM Well-Known Member

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  17. BJM

    BJM Well-Known Member

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    Oct 6, 2010
    Can you get grubs or mealworms, or fresh ants? Apparantly, anteaters are carnivors, with a slowish metabolism. Discuss with your vet the use in NPH insulin, which in dogs (slower metabolism than cats), can last for 12 hours per shot. If you were to consider it, you would want to use a tiny dose, such as 0.25 to 0.5 units
     
  18. TamanduaGirl

    TamanduaGirl Member

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    Dec 24, 2014
    Thank you all. So much to reply too.

    First off the big concern seems to be diet. I worked hard to get that as close to wild as I could though on the surface it doesn't look like it. Yes their diet is much different than a cat. They need only trace amounts of retinol for example or they get a type of MBD of the spine where as cats need a lot of it. Their phos:ca ratio is about inverse from what you would find in most species. If you just fed them local ants and termites it would not be a balanced diet since they would not be the same values as the wild species they would be eating. I formulated the diet recipe(which I posted and doesn't include the yogurt) to meet the nutritional values found in their wild diet as much as possible. She is 9.5 now and I had her spine x-rayed a couple years ago and it was beautiful. Many places started using the diet since or a close variation of it and had much more success than they once had. They slow their metabolism while sleeping and need lots of vitamin K in their diet because they do not recycle it like most animals. Despite the major differences the basic rules of diabetes would be the same, like lowering carbs and it helps to discus with people who understand the condition even if not the actual patient.

    I do beleive most of the source of her condition was an illness when younger that caused internal bleeding and effected her liver and probably other organs but there was obvious signs of her liver being affected. I know I didn't help with some of the treats she was allowed but didn't think of them as being high sugar at the time. The issue with the yogurt isn't anything added it's the left over lactose. Though Greek yogurt should be lower in sugars since it is drained a bit and the lactose is in the weigh I haven't found the store brands of Greek yogurt to actually be any lower in sugar than regular. One thing I had been doing was using goat cheese cultures but on cows milk and making cheese. Age 24hrs or more then strain for 24hrs. Then I blended it with some water to make it a better consistancy to be poured on top of Aurora's soup. This removes most of the weigh so should remove most of the sugar and is still sour milk tasting enough to make Aurora happy enough to eat her food. Recently I had just used yogurt though as I didn't see any BG benefits when doing that. I will go back to doing that though as it should be less stress on her system at the least by having less lactose. One other benefit was Pua didn't like it much so left Aurora's food alone more so she also got less of the cheese than she does the yogurt since she was less inclined to steal though still did sometimes.

    @Vyktors Mum that article goes into detail more on what is going on with exercise than I had seen before. Will have to work on the less more often. I would do weekly hikes before and she likes to go go go till exhausted. I can hold her back so she doesn't run as hard too.

    I can try using lower fat meat. It does raise the phos in the ratio doing that but others have chosen to do so with the diet and had no issues yet. Plus with her age it's not a real issue unless the ratio is thrown way off or the retinol went too high(that can cause major damage in just a month).

    @rhiannon and shadow That does seem like a lot of carbs. I added them for mineral content mostly but then upped them for fiber too. The wheat bran is the main fiber source. The wild diet is super high in fiber but it's insoluble since it's from exoskeletons.

    @Hillary & Maui (GA) I wasn't getting accurate reading with the freestyle or alpatrack. What I did was take 3 different control fluids and tested each meter with each type of strip and fluid combo. None seemed accurate as far as her blood goes. So I took the freestyle strip in the alphatrack meter(because it can be coded and FS can't) and coded it down till it was different enough from the base reading on each fluid to account for the difference initially seen when we tested the drawn blood at the vet with the meters compared to lab. This seems to have worked as the numbers were more what was expected and a test at the same time of day as one taken at the vet gave about the same number though different day and blood. 107 lab tested at vet and 109 at home. I'll try the meter as coded next time we have her to the vet to draw but it seems to be working for her.

    The yogurt is given for flavor as Aurora will not eat without it added at least a little bit on top. The best compromise I could come up with was soft sour tasting cheese instead like described above. Milk free alternatives still have comparable sugar as sugar needs to be added to have something to ferment with the cultures. It's possible she may react less strongly to one of the other sugars than lactose though. I don't think probiotics on their own have any real flavor.

    Wheat bran was about the highest fiber food I could find to add but looking now it does have a good deal of carbs. I thought of it as mostly fiber. I'm used to looking at the protein annd mineral content ect but will need to get used to looking at carbs too.

    It's not that much of a problem to test at home. I poke her feet and wait a moment them can get some blood out. Their skin is pretty thick. I meant it's difficult to get veterinary blood samples. It can only be drawn from the vein in the underside of the tail. It takes at least two of us to hold her as the vet draws blood. This greatly inhibits the ability for more invasive tests where they might want to keep her for a bit and draw more than once over a period of time. Pua got a bit depressed when I did a curve on her awhile back but generally she tolerates some spot testing well. They poke each others feet with their claws for fun so I believe she takes it as me playing too rough more than my being malicious and yes a treat does help a lot.

    @Sienne and Gabby That is why we were trying to avoid having to go with medications or insulin. It is really uncharted territory. Sometimes with such a rare animal you are forced to have your pet be the guinea pig, like when we used an appetite stimulant on Aurora. There was no record of it's use in anteaters but it worked great and now other anteaters can benefit from the knowledge. It kind of sucks to be first though.

    @BJM just anteaters. Sloths and Armadillos share the same super order as anteaters but that's as close as it gets. They are that unique.

    I use http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/search/ a lot for finding nutrient info.

    Living with Anteaters is us ;) Glad it looks useful though. I need to update that though I see it's not the most up to date version of the care sheet I have.

    A lot of good studies can be found in the Edentata newsletters http://www.xenarthrans.org/

    I could use mealworms if mashed up. She found them hard to eat given whole as a treat. I use dried silkworm pupae a lot since their nutrient content is very similar to ants. She loves soft bodied grubs when I can find them.
     
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2014
  19. BJM

    BJM Well-Known Member

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    Oct 6, 2010
    Had a thought - instead of wheat brain, you might see if you could use plain psyllium powder for fiber. It should be a lot lower in carbohydrate. We use it with our diabetic cats if they have issues with constipation OR diarrhea, as it basically holds water in and provides bulk. If you decide to test this, check the respective fiber content in the bran, then I would swap out slowly, maybe 10-20% per day or two so you have time to observe the impact on her and correct course as needed.

    Another thought is chitin, found in the exoskeletons of arthropods ... like ants. Sourcing that might be difficult, but I did find listings on Google.

    After reading how their mouths work, I understand about the meal worms. Using a blender to get them to a paste then adding to the sour milk/yogurt might make the consistency such she could eat it.
     
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  20. Maggies Mom Debby

    Maggies Mom Debby Well-Known Member

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    Dec 28, 2009
    Welcome! I think having anteaters as pets fascinating! Can I ask how that came about? Also, how much does she weigh? So many questions!

    It sounds like you are very knowledgable about Pua's dietary needs. The trick will be lowering the carbs while you keep all the necessary values in range. You also may have to take shorter walks if exercise is causing trouble.

    The keto-diastix may help a lot. Since you are unsure of the accuracy of your glucose meter on an anteater, the urine test will allow you to see when Pua is spilling glucose into her urine. So if your meter says seems to say the number is ok, but glucose is still showing up in the urine, you will know that the meter is wrong.

    PS: To those who are worried about Pua not being a cat, we have had at one non-cat diabetic members in the past. I seem to remember a diabetic ferret. So though we might not know anything specific about anteaters, we might be able to help out with general ideas, like cutting carbs. Even with cats, we acknowledge that we aren't vets and that every cat is different. Pua is just a bit more different!
     
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  21. rhiannon and shadow (GA)

    rhiannon and shadow (GA) Well-Known Member

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    Jul 9, 2012
    I'm wondering if you can't start an ant farm.... like you need more work. But that way you might be able to get the right ants.
    I guess I would be hunting out as much of the "natural " diet as I could and stockpiling.

    just like people who have lizards as pets, they often also have the food in another tank so they don't have to run find it at a store.
    my dd had crickets for a while and now has cockroaches ( superyuck)
    I sure wish you success.
     
  22. Hillary & Maui (GA)

    Hillary & Maui (GA) Well-Known Member

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    Dec 28, 2009
    One thing you will find here is a lot of information. Be it diet, insulin, whatever. It's here.

    We typically test cat's ears. Does an anteater have ears? Can you test them if the paw becomes a problem or too challenging? In cats, they have fewer nerve endings in the ear, which makes it an easy place to test. We test the ear edge (AKA the sweet spot).
     

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  23. TamanduaGirl

    TamanduaGirl Member

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    Dec 24, 2014
    I just checked Psyllium Husk and it shows as having 1.3g of carbs per 1.5g of husk which would actually be the worst ratio as most fiber supplements seem to be half carbs. I think wheat bran will have to do for now. It is less than half carbs. I had looked into Chitin before but at the time it was only available if ordering in huge quantities. There are now sellers on Alibaba offering to sell in smaller amounts so I'll see what they can offer.

    Interestingly one of her supplements is Chitosan which is Chitin with one molecule removed but I'd not give that in large quantities since a molecule can change a lot. I would need to consult a chemist.

    Ant "farms" are really just ant cages. It's not really feasible to raise ants. Cockroaches are a possibility, they genetically are much like termites, though I'm not sure I could raise them in enough quantity. The one issue still with insects is the gut-loading concept. What they eat can greatly effect their nutrient make up. So captive ants even of the same species could still be much different nutritionally from the wild ants so would require experimenting and testing to find out what the ants need to be fed as well. More insects in the diet is good in general though.

    I had been ordering ants off of Aliexpress but that seller became unrelable and along with losing shipments we got the wrong ants last time which they hate but I have been mixing into their food with acceptance instead of feed on their own. So I placed an order with a seller on Alibaba recently but not gotten a shipping number yet but I suppose Christmas break is a thing there too so will be patient for awhile.

    Oh I did try wild farming termites before with the forestry's blessing but it didn't work out. I only got termites too tiny to do anything with. I couldn't collect them out of the farms without obliterating them.

    Pua is about 15 pounds right now. I just weighed Aurora and she's 17 but she is unusually large for a girl 17-19 is more male size. I had worked with exotic animals and the more I learned about Tamandua the more I loved them. They are a huge challenge though.

    Their ears are kind of leathery. It's a no go on even trying with Pua though as her edges are scarred. First she had a staff infection of the ears when we first got her then her illness(streptecocal toxic shock) that caused internal bleeding also caused petecial hemorrhaging. This caused her skin to peel when she was getting better as the skin had died from the bleeding and this included her ears. She even lost the "tip" of one ear.

    [​IMG]I see you are awake by TamanduaGirl, on Flickr

    PS her foot though this is an old photo. They are smoother now.
    [​IMG]Pua foot by TamanduaGirl, on Flickr
     
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2014
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  24. rhiannon and shadow (GA)

    rhiannon and shadow (GA) Well-Known Member

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    Jul 9, 2012
    do anteaters eat roaches? do they like them?

    I know my daughter's lizard doesn't keep up with eating them fast enough. ( different needs)
    if Pua like them, you might be able to keep up with a couple of small aquariums of them.

    She tells me hers are different than the kind that pester humans.
    They are bred on purpose to be a good food source for whatever eats them.
     
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2014
  25. BJM

    BJM Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2010
    Some folks test on the paw pads of their cats. I do not know if that would work for you.
     
  26. Hillary & Maui (GA)

    Hillary & Maui (GA) Well-Known Member

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    Dec 28, 2009
    as long as she lets you take blood from the foot, that is all that matters.

    You really have done your homework and know what's best for them. Who knew there were differences in ants and termites and you could actually mail order ants.:eek:

    Do anteaters get along with dogs and cats?
     
  27. TamanduaGirl

    TamanduaGirl Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2014
    She found some wood termites out back once and loved them. I haven't tried any feeder roaches yet but they seem worth a shot.

    BJM Yes I've been testing on her feet. I did it on the pad of her hand once but then when I tried repeating that the blood kept running between the grooves of her skin instead of welling up. I guess I got lucky and poked a smooth spot the first time.

    It depends on the dogs and the anteaters but yes. (hyzzie dog and Pua)
    [​IMG]Caught sleeping together by TamanduaGirl, on Flickr

    Generally when the anteaters are down running around they will ignore the dogs. Pua isn't fond of the fact the new dog Beaker sleeps in my bed but is getting bolder about coming onto the bed with him there.

    Pua was terrified of the cat when she first got here but wild felines are one of their predators. She learned the cat wasn't a threat though. She was an old mellow cat. She and the young cat Jake get on fine. He loved her when he was younger but they don't spend much time together any more. The only thing is he will tease them sometimes when outside and jump over or near them which startles them. They don't like fast movements since sight is their weakest sense.

    [​IMG]Pua and her shadow by TamanduaGirl, on Flickr
     
    KPassa likes this.
  28. Vyktors Mum

    Vyktors Mum Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2011
    Thanks so much for posting the pix she is about the cutest thing I've ever seen :):):)

    p.s. ssshhh don't tell anyone but there's lots of cockroaches and termites around my place, and I'd be very glad to baby sit if you wanted to ship her over ;)
     
  29. Amy&TrixieCat

    Amy&TrixieCat Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2011
    I agree...absolutely adorable! I really hope you're able figure out the diabetes puzzle for sweet Pua.
     
  30. Maggies Mom Debby

    Maggies Mom Debby Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2009
    I don't know if it would help you, but some of us spread a very thin layer of vaseline on the area we are going to test to help the blood bead up and keep it from running into fur.
     
  31. TamanduaGirl

    TamanduaGirl Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2014
    Thanks guys.

    Been distracted with my more problematic anteater Aurora. She has developed a couple infected tail wounds. I have no real idea how she managed it but this is a critical situation in a prehensile tailed animal.

    The Vaseline sounds like it might work long as it gets down into the skin grooves.
     
  32. Lisa and Witn (GA)

    Lisa and Witn (GA) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2009
    I do not have any advice to offer, but she is beautiful.
     
  33. Amy&TrixieCat

    Amy&TrixieCat Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2011
    Sending prayers for your Aurora, too...you do have your hands full!!
     
  34. TamanduaGirl

    TamanduaGirl Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2014
    Thank you. Aurora sees the vet tomorrow. Been bandaging it and giving baytril in the mean time.

    So I had said I was giving yogurt but I was actually giving buttermilk most recently but though it was similar enough not to draw the distinction. I ran out and yesterday was crazy so I did give a bit of yogurt. She tested at 322 this morning which is the highest I've seen in a long time. So I got buttermilk for now but will start with making the cheese tomorrow instead. Buttermilk is not much lower in sugar and carbs than the yogurt though it is some so I'm not sure why yogurt seems to be the worst thing Pua can ingest for her BG.
     
  35. KPassa

    KPassa Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2012
    I admit, I've been lurking your thread because...come on! Anteater? So interesting! :woot: How was the vet visit yesterday?

    One other thing I was thinking about is instead of the buttermilk or yogurt, what about parmesan cheese? That's something else that works pretty well with cats because of its stinkiness and you don't have to use too much of it so it has a negligible impact on BGs (at least for cats).
     
  36. TamanduaGirl

    TamanduaGirl Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2014
    Aurora was very grumpy about the whole thing. Had to play country music in the car or she'd cry and she growled at me when I stopped on a Pearl Jam song. The vet said it looks like I have it under control. It's looking really good today.

    Could see if there's any interest in parmesan. Aurora is super picky but you never know they have odd tastes. She loves her yogurt/buttermilk sour cheese/sour cream sort of things. She used to love blue cheese, most do there is an ant where they live in the wild that smells and tastes like blue cheese, but after an illness she had she now only likes it sometimes. She likes some types of ants but seems to have trouble actually eating them most of the time for some reason. She's an odd duck.

    Blue cheese is a good treat for Pua since it is low in carbs and pretty much all traces of lactose are gone due to it being aged so long though fat is a bit of an issue with it. Pua LOVES her soaked chia seeds as treats. I may need to rethink that having learned about the carbs in them. Though they come out still fully formed much of the carbs are likely in the outer slimy(once soaked) coating so she would be getting that. They are less sugar than her old treat choices though. She also loves to suck the seeds out of small tomatoes. I usually let her have one a day. I figure most of the carbs are in the fruit rather than the seeds but I could not find a run down on them separately to be sure.

    Also I blend the cheeses with water or grape seed oil to make it a better consistency so that also cuts down on the percent of carbs in the final whole product consumed though water doesn't affect the count on a dry matter basis.
     
  37. TamanduaGirl

    TamanduaGirl Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2014
    So long as I'm here I had noticed the cat difference for home meters. Someone mentioned a chart but I don't remember what thread but I found a thing that says home meters test 30-40% lower for cats compared to what a lab test would say. Now it all makes sense. Here's my handy chart from when I tried to figure it out before.
    [​IMG]

    So some explanations of my notes the Pua column is directly from Pua's blood the others are the control fluids the contour is mega expired as they gave me that meter for free at the pharmacy then I see it expired in '09, gee thanks. Never could get enough blood from her to use that meter anyway.

    So the values to the left are meter and strip combos. The Alpha meter / AT strip is set at dog code the one that ends fs was set at cat code.

    So seeing that the freestyle meter with FS strip was 32 points below lab I set out to get a configuration that was about 32 points above what the control fluids tested at on the FS/fs combo. And Alpha/fs at 24 was close as I could get.

    I see now that was wrong and I should have been aiming for the percent difference of 70. So should have used code 23. I tried this gain with the new strip I just got and she should be 22.5 but that setting does not exist so 23 is still closest.

    I suppose I could save myself the trouble and just use the freestyle and do the math each time of upping it 70% Though I'll need a new battery for it. Was getting wild numbers tonight till I put the alpha battery in it then it got consistent numbers again. It needs some battery warning light so you know the accuracy is gonna go down.

    Geez I always do things the hard way first. FS/fs and so the math it is from now on.
     
  38. BJM

    BJM Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2010
    See my signature link Glucometer Notes.

    We do not adjust the test numbers to get pet-meter values; we use cat-specific numbers to use human meters.
     
  39. TamanduaGirl

    TamanduaGirl Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2014
    Thanks. Yeah that's what I will have to do, and was trying to here, though I still mathed wrong. It's 30% difference for her 75 on human meter to 107 lab, right? The 75 is 70% of 107 but the difference is the 3o, doh. Geez I really suck at this.
     
  40. BJM

    BJM Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2010
    Pet estimate = human meter / .65
    pet estimate * .65 = human meter estimate
    The .65 is the halfway point for 30-40%.
    Then there is the +/- 30% meter variance, which is why we don't bother converting - it winds up with a range of numbers that are useless for making decisions.
     
  41. TamanduaGirl

    TamanduaGirl Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2014
    Okay that helps but I was trying to get something to use to figure home values based on the lab value since we didn't now how the pet or human meters compare for an anteaters otherwise. Lab value the day we tested the meters on the same blood was 107 so taking 107* .70=74.9 and the FS metter that day was 75.

    So to get a home value on the FS meter I would take the value divided by .70 then right? So like in the chart I have a test of the Fs that was 192 so 192/.70=274 So that formula should get me at least a rough idea on account of the variability of the meters. This one using the fluids when the batter is good normally stays within about 10 points though.

    Previously I tried to recode the meter to make up for the difference but it doesn't work out well enough.
     
  42. TamanduaGirl

    TamanduaGirl Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2014
    PS the alpha meter that day was 99 so if I was trying to get pet meter number it would be much different from cat. 99 pet to 107 lab to 75 human. (edit roughly .76 to get pet meter value on human meter but would be pointless in my case)
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2014
  43. BJM

    BJM Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2010
    What you'll need to do is collect numerous pairs of tests on the same blood drop and put them in a table.
    Then snag me; I do statistics for a living.
    It'll be easiest if you set up a table as
    date, time, human meter test, lab test, any notes

    Also, the relationship between the 2 types of test may vary with how large the number is. Small numbers may be a smaller percent difference than large numbers.
     
  44. TamanduaGirl

    TamanduaGirl Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2014
    Thank you. That could take a long time since the lab test is an ordeal an the only test we know is accurate. I could try asking the conservation center if they could test all of their tamandua with lab and FS meter. That would be a huge favor if they actually did but it sure would be valuable to keepers of the species.
     
  45. BJM

    BJM Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2010
    If you provided the meter and strips, and maybe spent a day helping them do it, they might be willing to work with you. It would enable them to use less expensive testing for routine checking.
     
  46. TamanduaGirl

    TamanduaGirl Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2014
    Yes it would be a great little study to do. I just sent them a note asking if they do annual blood tests as if they do it wouldn't be that much more of hassle to do the meter testing at the same time so explained the idea. I also CCed the idea to another anteater friend who had been looking for a study idea though she only has 2 of her own. Maybe we could all come together and work it out.
     
  47. BJM

    BJM Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2010
    There you go - a nice little study on a possible cost-saving approach to monitoring the anteaters, possibly publishable in an exotic species veterinary journal.
     
  48. Larry and Kitties

    Larry and Kitties Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2009
    9-14-2014

    I just did two tests with my original AlphaTrak and my human Easy Gluco Plus meter. Both comparisons used same drop of blood from two different cats


    Dulce OTJ
    AT = 72

    Easy Gluco Plus = 54
    The AT is 133% of the EGP value

    Badgar
    AT = 377
    Easy Gluco Plus = 331

    The AT is only 113% of the EGP value
     
  49. BJM

    BJM Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2010
    @Larry and Kitties - it may be different in anteaters, hence the need for some major data collection.

    And to get a proper, statistical relationship determined, you need hundreds of paired samples, not just 1.
     
  50. Larry and Kitties

    Larry and Kitties Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2009
    While it takes a a lot of dat to prove a correlation it takes very little to disprove one.
     
  51. BJM

    BJM Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2010
    Sorry, Larry, but no; it shows error variance.
    You'll seldom find a Pearson correlation of 1.0, which is perfect.
    You need to acquire test data to get the distribution for both the home meter and the lab meter.
    To review it visually, you plot on a graph to see where the pairs of tests display; this is not a statistical test, however.
    You have to determine if each measurement tool shows the glucose as normally distributed or not, then determine if the Pearson correlation coefficient is the correct statistic to use (parametric) or some other statistic (non-parametric).
    In measurement science, there is always error in measurement. For well standardized tools, such as distance, this is usually quite small. We already know that home human glucometers, testing human blood, are allowed to read anywhere within 20% of what a lab would get. Lab equipment has much narrower allowances than that.

    BTW - I have over 25 years of experience in statistics and measurement science.
     
  52. TamanduaGirl

    TamanduaGirl Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2014
    Well the conservation center is out but the other keeper is interested and may be able to get a zoo on board if she can get a grant for a real study.

    In the mean time I'll use the .7 from the one comparison test since it's all I got. When things warm up then I can take Aurora in and test her(maybe drag Pua along too) and slowly compile comparison tests as I can.

    So I started Pua a SpreadSheet with one test this morning on there so far of 208 but was actually at +9 since supplement since it was late and probably around 4 hours since last eating.
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2015
  53. TamanduaGirl

    TamanduaGirl Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2014
    Okay got the ketodia sticks. The whole read at exactly so many seconds thing threw me a bit but think she was moderate keytones and 250-500 glucose but she had also tested very high that morning with the meter and it turns out when she broke into the fridge she had had some of the weigh I had drained when making their cheese, which is about the worst thing she could do for her glucose. That item has been moved to the fridge she can't get at now.

    Maybe anteaters are a bit better at dealing with keytones for some reason. She had those two bouts of what might have been ketoacidosis on her walks but recovered with some rest and drinking lots of water but seems a regular pet would have likely been in hospital for awhile. Doesn't make it okay though and will see how she tests when she hasn't been eating forbidden food.
     
  54. BJM

    BJM Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2010
    We generally encourage increased water consumption in cats showing moderate or higher ketones, to help flush them out. Maybe add a little bit of water to one of the things she eats.
    Ketones can turn into an acidosis, but if anteaters normally deal with an acidic diet (formic acid in ants, right?), that may be why they can tolerate it better than cats.

    You might set up a spreadsheet of any paired tests you get, separate from her routine monitoring. that way, it'll be easier to do an analysis.
    Use the columns I mentioned earlier. I can help with the statistical analysis.
     
  55. TamanduaGirl

    TamanduaGirl Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2014
    I can try adding more water bowls. Pua has an obsession with visiting and drinking out of every water source there is. Maybe related to a survival instinct to know where they all are in case things start drying up. I don't know though. Aurora refuses to even drink water and relies on the water in her soup food.

    Don't like that she still had a high number this morning. She started out lower on the first so don't think it's just the new conversion method. The only other thing I changed in that time frame was using the sour cheese instead of buttermilk, it should have less sugar but maybe I'm not doing something right. I can try buttermilk and see if the numbers go back down.

    And yeah getting more comparisons will require a better tracking method like the graph.
     
  56. TamanduaGirl

    TamanduaGirl Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2014
    Last night's pee was still moderate keytones but glucose read 1000. She just pees once a day when she gets up. I'm gonna try adding back the more chia seeds. I tried removing them due to the carbs as mentioned but she had trended down before when I added them.
     
  57. BJM

    BJM Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2010
    I think it may be time to talk with the vet about trying a bit of insulin; those numbers are really high.
     
  58. TamanduaGirl

    TamanduaGirl Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2014
    Yeah I'm not liking those numbers. I want to try running the strip through her pee stream to be sure it's not being effected by my method. She pees on a fresh pee pad and I dab it on that. She did not cooperate last night though.

    I was just thinking being able to give her insulin would be nice. My vet would like to run her through some insulin testing first to see if she actually has low levels or is just resistant but that probably wont be feasible. It's also a scary thought to not be sure I can home test properly as she has been in low 100s sometimes the once verified by lab tests.

    Making some changes to her supplements and see if we can get a change back down but we may be forced to do insulin despite the dangers. Maybe start her on a tiny dose just once a day and work up.
     
  59. BJM

    BJM Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2010
    Starting with a tiny dose is important. Check locally for what is available and what the concentrations are.
    Humulin/Novolin NPH may be available and do have diluents available, plus it should be inexpensive.
     
  60. TamanduaGirl

    TamanduaGirl Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2014
    Novalin is a slower acting one right? I think a slower acting one once a day would be the best to start since they literally sleep all day most days without getting up to eat, drink or even pee. I would fear insulin during the day could send her into clinical torpor from going too low.

    I added her labs but one row is showing colors. What did I do wrong?
     
  61. BJM

    BJM Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2010
    No, Novolin/Humulin (same insulin, different brands) NPH (means neutral protein Hagedorn), lasts about 6-8 hours in cats. In dogs, which have a slower metabolism, it lasts about 12 hours. Since anteaters have a really slow metabolism, it seems logical than NPH type insulin might work well. Or maybe even Regular insulin, which in cats, may last 4-5 hours max (those speedy, revved up kitties!)
    Its something to discuss with a vet.
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2015
  62. TamanduaGirl

    TamanduaGirl Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2014
    Saw the vet today got blood from Pua and Aurora for comparisons. Vet is really reluctant about insulin since we have no history of using it in anteaters to make her comfortable with doing it. Said animals can live along time with high glucose but a drop could kill her fast and that I should continue to try diet changes or natural means. I'm just not sure what else I can do since her companion is so picky about her food and Pua takes some of that. I switched to lower fat meat in the diet and Aurora went on hunger strike. I had to switch to around half old and half new recipe and then she decide it was food after all. Pua's keytones did come down to 15 on her last test though.

    I'll see about making a chart once I have the lab values but Aurora was 29 freestyle, 25 alpha cat setting and 34 dog setting. Using the .70 conversion for freestyle her lab should be around 41, which would be typical of her, though she has always been not eating when tested in the past so I had expected higher this time, guess not. If I convert based on the difference in dog meter to lab on Pua's old test it'd be 36 we could expect the lab but I doubt that.

    Pua was 170 freestyle, 195 cat meter and 233 dog meter. So using FS difference should be 242.8 lab or using the old dog difference could be 253 lab.

    I'm just curious to see which will wind up being closer but I know all tests combined will be used once we have a few for the data but choosing one meter over the other. So if FS is closer after conversion using the old number then it makes sense to stick with that for future compiling, I think, even though the alpha was closer non-converted. Also we used the vets alphatrack which was gray but mine's pink. I'm out of alpha strips so didn't bring it. We used the vet's alpha meter last time too though.
     
  63. BJM

    BJM Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2010
    They do make a diluent for the NPH insulins, I believe. That would permit the adjustment of the concentration to one the vet might feel was safe to test.
    NPH is normally a U-100, or 100 units per mL. Dilution could get it down to any concentration desired.
     
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  64. TamanduaGirl

    TamanduaGirl Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2014
    That could help. She also was eager to see glucose tests for other anteaters, besides the zoo value chart we have, so will see if my friend can do hers soon. If they test low 40's like Aurora then it will help prove Pua is way to high and not just kinda high like her numbers might be for other species.

    Here's Aurora being grumpy at the vet prior to blood draw
    [​IMG]Grumpy Aurora by TamanduaGirl, on Flickr

    Pua clinging to Aurora after her blood draw
    [​IMG]Pua clinging to Aurora by TamanduaGirl, on Flickr

    Couple peas in their pod ready to go home
    [​IMG]Two peas in a pod by TamanduaGirl, on Flickr
     
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  65. TamanduaGirl

    TamanduaGirl Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2014
    Okay got a sheet made up with their meter and lab tests. I'm scratching my head at Aurora's results. If she were a cat she'd be dead, right? Maybe she's a zombie anteater. She's fine mostly. She has some fur issues, taurine and botin helps her a lot there. Could be hypothyroid but no way to test for that in them yet. Lowest tested zoo tamanduas were 33 glucose, so not that much lower but probably lower than average. Aurora has noramaly been 40's but was always not well and not eating when tested before.

    Edit: after looking closer at Aurora's blood values it points to addison's rather than thyroid. She's been my problem child health wise since rescued.
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2015
  66. TamanduaGirl

    TamanduaGirl Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2014
    Okay I'm having math fail and know you can help. I thought Pua's old compare test was a 30% difference but I went to math them out now and it looks like 5% difference. I wanted to try and line graph it, even though I only have the three comparisons(my friends vet can't seem to draw blood from her's it is a difficult things, my vet is great at it though), so far just to get some rough idea of the sliding scale.

    So percent differences:
    lab: 107 meter: 99 (7%?)
    lab: 234 Meter: 170 (27%)
    Lab: 29 Meter: 28 (-3.5%?) Negative used just so I know which direction the difference goes.

    Are these right? If so I don't know how I got 30% before if not I must have forgotten all my schooling or something. I was wondering as I got 155 meter today and at 30% difference that would be still a bit high but if the 107 vs 99 difference is really 5% the the difference changes faster than I thought and that is likely a really good number somewhere in between.
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2015
  67. TamanduaGirl

    TamanduaGirl Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2014
    Okay I checked with Google and I'm doing it right now it seems. So made the chart. So using the chart today's 155 would be about 190(Wish I could add lines to the chart to make it easier to check) instead og 221 using the .70 conversion. I know you told me that all along but I thought it was a smaller difference due to somehow messing up the original difference. Really need some more mid range comparison values to be sure of better accuracy though but seems more accurate for when I get lower numbers like today.

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...PFC9_8HaVRipR2cTs4behkBlg/edit#gid=1056993474
     
  68. Vyktors Mum

    Vyktors Mum Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2011
    Chances are the differences are going to be different at different BG levels. The variance between an alpha trak and a human meter in cats can't be calculated by a flat percentage as the variance changes depending on whether the numbers are higher or lower, I think the variance is higher in higher numbers. That even applies between different human meters, eg the freestyle light meter reads significantly lower than most meters in higher numbers but with lower numbers the variance is less - percentage wise.

    Such cute photos, looks like neither of them were talking to you by the time they were coming home and just presenting bottoms, in fact that tail stuck straight out the back looks like a big up yours!

    So difficult trying to figure out the best thing to do when you're a pioneer, I feel for you.
     
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  69. BJM

    BJM Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2010
    It'll depend on the direction of your math - do you want to know the percent the human meter is compared to the lab, or the percent the lab is compared to the human meter? I'll assume the former.
    meter/lab*100, rounded to 1 decimal: human meter runs lower than lab

    -27.4% @ 170
    -7.5% @ 99
    -3.4% @ 28





     
  70. Maggies Mom Debby

    Maggies Mom Debby Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2009
    Don't forget that all home glucometers can have a 20% variance per FDA regs (I think they are in the process of changing this to 15%). That means that the real reading can be + or - 20% of what you see so the variance in numbers depends on how low or high the bg is. A 100 can really be anywhere from 80 or 120. And a 400 can be between 320 or 480. (This doesn't even touch on the fact that there is even an accepted percent variance for lab testing, too.)

    What this means for your tests is that the first and last are really the same number because of the variance of accuracy:
    lab: 107 meter: 99 (meter variance: 79.2 - 118.8)
    lab: 234 Meter: 170 (meter variance: 137-204)
    lab: 29 Meter: 28 (meter variance: 21.4 - 33.6)

    So my reading is that the lab and the home glucometer are reading the same, except for the second test. Once you get more numbers you can tell if that one test is just an anomaly.
     
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  71. TamanduaGirl

    TamanduaGirl Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2014
    Vyktors Mum, thank you. They are curled up in balls with their heads underneath so you are actually seeing their upper backs but I'd say the sentiment is about the same. And Yeah BJM had said all along I needed to graph it but I don't really have enough comparison tests yet and thought both the upper tests were in the 70% difference range so thought a formula would work for upper numbers but I finally saw my mistake so that was wrong.

    I thought I needed the % difference to do the graph but I went with a simpler graph instead so I can find her home test number on the graph then go strait up and that "should" be roughly the lab number assuming the current curve is right but it could be it more suddenly rises at some point or could be like Maggie said and an anomaly on the one, will need more tests to be sure. For now it would look like her reading of 155 would be roughly 190 lab(actual level).

    I've tested the meter on the control fluid a lot and it seems to be pretty steady in it's readings, like not getting a random high or low, the one time it was swinging more I changed the battery and it went back to normal but it's possible. Maybe should double check when I get a random higher or lower number though to be sure. I think over all even though it can be 20% difference from actual level it's likely always close to the same amount different. I guess the question would be if someone using the same brand and style of meter would be much different than mine? As that was the plan to try and get others to do comparisons with the same meter, only not literally my meter. But if mine is say 20% and others could be 15% or 10% using the same type meter that would complicate the results a bit but then that is also the goal to get enough results so anyone could use that meter on a tamandua and know what the results mean but necessitates even more results due to that possible variance.

    But it does make sense too that if the difference is within he possible variance it could be considered basically an accurate reading. But it does seem the percent difference goes higher with each higher test but there's not enough to know for sure yet.

    Oh I did find out that if I don't get enough blood and squeeze a bit more out to finish filling the strip it can falsely read high so I don't do that now. I just need a new strip if it fails the first try.
     
  72. Maggies Mom Debby

    Maggies Mom Debby Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2009
    I believe the variance is each individual meter, not necessarily by brand. But I'm not sure. And no, the variance is a percentage, not a number. It varies according to reading. The lower the bg reading, the smaller the amount of variance. The higher the reading, the larger the amount of variance.

    As BG numbers vary almost minute to minute and all tests have an accuracy variance, there are really no hard and fast numbers in treating diabetes. Just an approximate (but close) number that tells if she is too low, too high, if it's safe to give insulin. We look to patterns and trends.

    I understand you are trying to come up with a scale just for Tamanduras, as we have for cats using a human meter. The examples you have so far looks like the your Pua's readings with a human meter is very similar to the lab test and might not need to be adjusted. But as you said, more data is needed to be sure.
     
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  73. BJM

    BJM Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2010
    example of the 20% meter variance
    a test of 50 means the result is likely somewhere between a test of 40-60, a span of 20
    a test of 500 means the result is likely somewhere between a test of 400-600, a span of 200
     
  74. TamanduaGirl

    TamanduaGirl Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2014
    I understand that but what I meant is the control fluid is not changing how much glucose is in it and the meter reads about the same each time on it so not jumping around by 20%, or I thought it didn't but checking the records the highest vs the lowest is a 15% difference. Was thinking of the wrong meter it was the alpha track that got almost the same number each time, literally just a point of two difference but it was further off from lab so made more sense to use the freestyle. So what I was saying is if it was like my other one whatever amount it's off would be static but that others might be different amount off but since it does jump around that's not valid. I see what you mean now and I just got lucky with a meter that doesn't vary in the alpha, I guess. But with it not varying on tests it had me thinking the variance is just how much it can vary from lab not how much it can vary when used repeatedly on the same sample or control fluid.

    Okay so if I were to unadjust her numbers she's doing pretty good though would like to see her under 180 more often. It's been mostly under 250 non-adjusted but hoovering near 180 half the time. Still the little info I have seems to show it may be lower than lab more as it gets higher so really need some more info.

    She's gone up the last few days because the recent batch of food doesn't have silkworm in it due to running out because of shipping delays. I tried adding some more ants and fiber so will see if that helps tonight. High last night was 242 unadjusted (doesn't look as ugly that way but still not great).
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2015
  75. Larry and Kitties

    Larry and Kitties Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2009
    The +/- 20 is for the whole system of meters and strips. If you always use the same meter then you will experience less variation on test to tesif you tested blood with the same blood level.
    The test strips themselves are part of the overall +/- 20. Test trips are coded in order to reduce the contribution to the +/- 20% if you always use the same lot of test strips there will be less variation in BG value of you use blood with the same BG value.
     
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  76. TamanduaGirl

    TamanduaGirl Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2014
    That makes sense.

    Well seems there really are magical properties to silkworms that lower blood glucose. Guess I will be ordering them in bulk next time and feeding more of them. I upped the fiber and ants last night but her level was even worse today. The only change that correlates with the increase was no more silkworm pupae.

    And this verifies it's real: http://medicine-hygiene.idnwhois.org/article-13881.html

    How weird and frustrating as it will probably be a week or so as all my orders were delayed due to Chinese New Year, it's almost a 2 week holiday!
     
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  77. KPassa

    KPassa Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2012
    Hmm.... I wonder if Mikey would eat silkworms....
     
  78. Critter Mom

    Critter Mom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2014
    Exactly the same thought crossed my mind, Kay! :)
     
  79. BJM

    BJM Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2010
    Whenever you report the numbers, do so unadjusted. Track them vs lab numbers on a separate plain page of your spreadsheet for developing norms and reference values.
    Keep the date with them and sort them in ascending order based on both of the meters as you add them in - you may get some tests where a number on your meter gets 2 different numbers from the lab. This is normal due to the error allowed in home meters. It will help you see the range of variation along the continuum.
     

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