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Kitty Quit Grooming

Discussion in 'Feline Health - (The Main Forum)' started by fluffles5178, Aug 15, 2019.

  1. fluffles5178

    fluffles5178 Member

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2019
    Hello,
    Fluff was diagnosed in June and he has completely stopped grooming. I guess I’m just wondering if this is something that will return once his numbers are better? Thank you
     
  2. Idjit's mom

    Idjit's mom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2018
    Hi Fluff's parent, welcome to FDMB. Perhaps Fluff just doesn't feel very well yet, but if you are working on getting better BG numbers hopefully this will turn around.

    Maybe we can help with that too and if you would tell us what the treatment so far has been, we can offer some suggestions. It would be helpful if you would create a signature that provides his info that will display with each of your posts.

    Setting up your signature (light grey text under a post). Here's how:
    click on your name in the upper right corner of this page
    click on "signature" in the menu that drops down
    type the following in the box that opens: kitty's name/age/date of diabetes diagnosis/insulin you're using and dosage amount /glucose meter you're using/what (s)he eats/any other meds or health issues (s)he has. You can add your name, and a geographic location (sometimes the country/time zone matters) Be sure to SAVE when you are finished.

    Diet may also be a big component here and when we find out what he's eating and how much, we might be able to offer some suggestions on that score.

    Are you testing Fluff's blood sugar at home? It's the best way to see how the insulin is working for your sugar cat and is invaluable information if you would like experienced members' input about current dosing and how they see it working.
    We use a spreadsheet here on the board to record that data and the insulin dosing data also, you can take a look at other member's spreadsheets to get an idea of what that looks like. Idjit's ss is pretty sparse, as he is in remission and we don't have to test every day or multiple tests per day, so it's not a great example for you right now. Just look at some other threads and select the spreadsheet link in the signature at the bottom of the post.
     
  3. fluffles5178

    fluffles5178 Member

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2019
    Thank you!!
     
  4. Idjit's mom

    Idjit's mom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2018
    You are very welcome Mel. I love the avatar, what a beautiful kitty face! That signature information is very helpful and he's on a low carb diet, and that's great.

    Has Fluff been on the 2.5 Units of Prozinc since diagnosis, or have there been increases or decreases? We have a support group just for Prozinc users that you may be interested in reading. http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/forums/prozinc-pzi.24/

    When I first discovered this board, Idjit was just diagnosed and I was really upset, lost and confused. He was on a different insulin and when I began reading through the information here, I found that the instructions from the vet weren't what was recommended here, and I began asking about it. Turns out my vet was not well educated in Feline Diabetes and I was really not helping Idjit as much as I could have been. Somehow with the diet change and a very short period of insulin therapy, Idjit went into remission, very much in spite of me floundering around still depending on vet advice and not following experienced board members advice. I was administering the insulin wrong, I wasn't testing like I should have been, and Idjit began to go into hypoglycemia. I just happened to test at the right time, and members here walked me through intervention, averting any critical results. I tell ya, that was the game changer for me! Since then, I have tried to learn as much as I can, and have read so many threads and posts, again trying to learn. I still don't know enough yet, that's a work in progress, but I do know I can depend on the information and advice found here.

    With that in mind, I suggest you look into home testing Fluff's blood sugar, setting up the spreadsheet and recording data so you can see if the insulin dose you are currently using is a good dose or needs to be adjusted.

    We can help with recommendations for home testing supplies, provide videos and tips for learning to test and support you while you and Fluff learn the process.

    I just find it concerning that Fluff has been on insulin for two months, and now has lost interest in self grooming. I can't tell you the reason, but there may be clues you will find with testing and checking the insulin dose performance.

    I would be happy to provide you with links to the spreadsheet as well as home testing. Tell us how we can help you help Fluff.
     
    Panic and Gypsy's Parent like this.
  5. fluffles5178

    fluffles5178 Member

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2019
    Thank you so much! He was on 1 unit twice daily at diagnosis, then upped to 2 units twice daily when he had his follow up (BG has gone from 800 to 700.) Now she wants to do 4 units twice daily, and I just thought that seemed like a lot, so we’ve been doing 2 1/2 for two weeks now. Neuropathy is getting a little better with the Zobaline once a day.
     
  6. Idjit's mom

    Idjit's mom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2018
    @fluffles5178 Mel sorry for the late response, I don't seem to be getting notifications of replies to threads I have posted on or I missed it because it was so early in my morning. You didn't mention if you are testing his blood sugar at home, or if these results are from individual tests at the vet. You can test Fluff at home and know what the BG is "real time", preventing elevated BG from vet and travel stress.

    We can help you with suggestions for testing supplies and how to learn to test. It's the best way to keep Fluff safe, and to help find the best dose and get those high BG numbers under better control.

    You were quite right in not increasing the dose by that much, we recommend small increments of 0.25 U at a time, just so you don't pass by the best dose. Most vets see that one number and up the dose..and sometimes too much insulin can seem like not enough..it's a vicious cycle. Here's what may be happening, "bouncing":

    A bounce happens when numbers drop quickly, drop a lot (like from 454 to 91) or drop low. Your cat's liver and pancreas
    react to the change in numbers by dumping a stored form of glucose along with counter regulatory hormones
    into the bloodstream. These cause numbers to spike upward.

    The vets sees only the one number at that visit and bases the insulin dose on that, it's not enough data to make that recommendation. I have read so many posts with this story, it seems that most vets are just not well educated in feline diabetes. It's great that they can diagnose and prescribe, but effective treatment seems to be lacking, from proper low carb diet to even suggesting home testing, not to mention those big insulin dose increases.

    Human diabetics are sent to classes on proper nutrition for the condition, and taught to test their blood sugar to track and try to avoid very high or low blood sugar levels. Same things apply to our cats.

    Depending on where you live we can point you in the right direction for a glucometer and strips. I think if you are willing to test Fluff's BG you are going to make some headway in reducing those high BGs and get him feeling better.
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2019
    CandyH & Catcat likes this.
  7. Gypsy's Parent

    Gypsy's Parent Member

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2019
    I encourage home testing. Cats are stressed at the vet and this can affect blood sugar levels. You can test at home frequenty (every couple of hours) and the experienced people here can help interpret the results and recommend actions. A lot of vets don't have experience managing diabetes and provide incorrect advice. Diabetes in humans and cats is not at all straightforward to deal with. The pancreas reacts in unexpected ways to insulin as in "bouncing".

    Do you have an update on Fluff?
     
    fluffles5178 and CandyH & Catcat like this.
  8. fluffles5178

    fluffles5178 Member

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2019
    Hello,
    I’m not home testing yet, but I’d like to. There are Walmart’s close by, so I’ve been told the Relion Prime is a good one available here. Thoughts?
     
  9. Idjit's mom

    Idjit's mom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2018
    Yes, the ReliOn Prime and strips at Walmart..very affordable and available. Lancets 26 or 28 gauge to start with, lancing device is a personal choice. I don't use it, I freehand.

    Here is a link to testing videos and tips: http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/hometesting-links-and-tips.287/

    Home testing is the very best way to see, real time, if it's safe to inject each time and how the insulin is working. Then in consultation with vet and with experienced members here increasing or decreasing (in very small increments is best so you don't pass by the best dose) as needed.

    Please set up the spreadsheet and link it to your signature so that we can see the insulin and testing data you collect.
    You will see how the trends and patterns emerge, and members can review his/her progress before offering suggestions or advice:
    http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/fdmb-spreadsheet-instructions.130337/
    http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/understanding-the-spreadsheet-grid.156606/

    You can start a new thread about starting testing to get more members' methods, tips, tricks and support. It's a process of patience and practice. Here is something I just saw that Chris & China (GA) has prepared on the subject and I think you will find it interesting.

    Here's something I wrote up for others for testing...maybe it'll help you too!

    It can be really helpful to establish a routine with testing. Pick one spot that you want your "testing spot" to be (I like the kitchen counter because it's got good light and it's at a good height....it also already blocked 2 escape routes due to the wall and the backsplash) It can be anywhere though...a rug on the floor, a table, a particular spot on the couch...wherever is good for you.

    Take him there as many times a day as you can and just give his ears a quick rub and then he gets a yummy (low carb) treat. Most cats aren't objecting so much with the poking..it's the fooling with their ears they don't like, but once they're desensitized to it and learn to associate a certain place with the treats, they usually start to come when they're called! Or even when they hear us opening the test kit!

    You also have to remember...you're not poking him to hurt him...you're testing him to keep him safe and understand what's going on inside his body. There's just nothing better than truly understanding what's going on inside your kitty's body and with this disease, the more knowledge you have, the more power you have against it. The edges of the ears have very few pain receptors, so it really doesn't hurt them. Also, if you're nervous and tense, it's going to make your kitty nervous and tense too. As silly as it might seem, try singing! It forces you to use a different part of your brain!

    It's also important to make sure his ear is warm. A small sock filled with a little rice and microwaved or a small pill bottle filled with warm water (check temp against your wrist like you would a baby bottle) works well

    For new kitties, using a heavier gauge lancet is also really helpful. A 25-28 gauge lancet pokes a bigger "hole" than a 31-33 gauge lancet does, so look for "Alternate Site testing" lancets that are usually a lower number

    Finding the right "treat" will be a great help too! Freeze dried chicken, bonito flakes, little pieces of baked chicken...whatever low carb treat you can find that he really enjoys will help him to associate the testing with the treat! China's Achilles heel was baked chicken, so I'd bake a piece, chop it into bite sized pieces, put some in the refrigerator and freeze the rest to use as needed. It didn't take long for her to come any time I picked up the meter!
     
  10. fluffles5178

    fluffles5178 Member

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2019
    This one?

    931ECABE-BE46-48B6-BD4F-5D6B55C12777.jpeg
     
    CandyH & Catcat likes this.
  11. Idjit's mom

    Idjit's mom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2018
    Yes, that's the one. :)
     
  12. fluffles5178

    fluffles5178 Member

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2019
    I just did our very first test! He was at 563, poor guy. We’re on the Dr. Elsey’s Clean Protein and Friskies Pates, but he’s still not acting himself at all, and we have been at this since June 1st. Is it normal for regulation to take so long?
     
  13. Idjit's mom

    Idjit's mom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2018
    Mel, are you still dosing 4 Units twice a day? Since June 1st? If you would please set up the spreadsheet and start recording the insulin and testing data we can see better what's going on. My concern is that this huge dose is actually too high and Fluff might be bouncing just to save his life.

    Here's an explanation of what we call "bouncing". It explains why a kitty's BG can go from low to sky high: (possibly contributing to your kitty's high BG at the high dose he's on)
    BG goes low OR lower than usual OR drops too quickly.
    Kitty's body panics and thinks there's danger (OMG! My BG is too low!).
    Complex physiologic processes take glycogen stored in the liver (I think of it as "bounce fuel"), convert it to glucose and dump it into the bloodstream to counteract the perceived dangerously low BG.

    These processes go into overdrive in kitties who are bounce prone and keep the BG propped up varying lengths of time (AKA bouncing).
    Bounce prone kitty repeats this until his body learns that healthy low numbers are safe. Some kitties are slow learners.
    Too high a dose of insulin can keep them bouncing over and over until the " bounce fuel" runs out and they crash - ie., have a hypo episode. That's why we worry so much about kitties that have had too high a starting dose prescribed by the vet and the owner isn't home testing.

    There are cats who do require a high dose but that has to be determined with specialized tests. I would like to get some experienced members input on the 4 Units 2X a day, frankly this scares me and I'm sure you want to help Max feel better.

    http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/fdmb-spreadsheet-instructions.130337/
    http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/understanding-the-spreadsheet-grid.156606/

    @MrWorfMen's Mom
    @Bron and Sheba (GA)
    @Chris & China (GA)
    @Nan & Amber
     
  14. Bron and Sheba (GA)

    Bron and Sheba (GA) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2015
    Hi Mel and Fluff and welcome to FDMB.
    You have been given lots a great advise from Lou @Idjit's mom
    Well done getting the BG testing started! That is great and is one of the best things you can do for Fluff.

    I'm not a Prozinc user but I think going from 2 units to 4 units is not a good idea at all. That is a huge jump in dose for a little cat.
    I would first of all set up the spreadsheet and start getting some data in by testing and then see if you need to increase the dose. When you do increase,do it in 1/4 unit increments
    Test before every shot to see it is safe to give the insulin and then test during the cycle to see how low the insulin is taking Fluff. Test at different times such as +3, +5 one cycle and then +2 and +4 and + 6 another cycle etc. this will give you an idea of how he is handling the insulin.
    If you see a dropping number always test again to see that it is rising again.
    Keep asking lots of questions.
     
    Nan & Amber and Idjit's mom like this.
  15. fluffles5178

    fluffles5178 Member

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2019
    He began at one unit twice daily in June, then at vet visits, his numbers still weren’t coming down, so it was increased to 2, then 3, now 4 (which he has been on for a few days) - that’s why I was shocked that tonight’s reading was 563! I just don’t know what to do as far as dosing, because 4 absolutely scares me too.
     
  16. MrWorfMen's Mom

    MrWorfMen's Mom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2015
    First of all congratulations on your first test and for being proactive and deciding to do home testing. It is by far the best tool we have to get our kitties on the road to better health.

    Regulation can happen quickly or it can take awhile. Every cat is different. We have a saying here that this is a marathon not a sprint because the majority of cats take a while to get regulated.

    While your vet started off at a good starting dose, the increases have been too big at one time and chances are good you have skipped right over the best dose for Fluff. 4 units while not unheard of, is larger than most cats need and that may very well be what is causing the high reading you got today.
    Has Fluff ever had ketones or DKA?

    We really need some data to tell what is going on but if you feel Fluff is feeling worse on 4 units than he was on 2 or 3u, and there is no history of ketones or DKA, then you could back the dose up a bit to see if Fluff feels better while you gather some data.

    Get a test before every shot making sure Fluff has not eaten for 2 hours prior to the pre-shot test. The get some tests in the +4 to +7 hour timeframe post shot as that is when the peak of the insulin's action usually occurs and the lowest BG of the cycle will occur. The lowest point (nadir) moves around a bit so test +4 one day, +5 the next day and so on. Also make it a habit to get a test before bed every night. Our kitties quite often go lower at night and tests in the earlier part of the night cycle can provide clues as to what the cycle will look like and fill in a picture of what is happening with Fluff's BG throughout each 24 hour period.

    If you need help setting up the spreadsheet, just let us know. It is a great tool to be able to visually see how Fluff is doing.
     
    Nan & Amber likes this.
  17. fluffles5178

    fluffles5178 Member

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2019
    Thank you!
    He has never had ketones or DKA. I was wondering how much I should back off the insulin, because last night’s 563 was followed by a 319 just a few minutes ago
     
  18. Nan & Amber

    Nan & Amber Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2016
    Congratulations on test #2, now you are rolling!

    How long before you are due to shoot? I am not a ProZinc user. With no DKA in the picture and still gathering data, I'd be inclined to back off quite a bit on the dose (down to 2U or less) but again, I do not have any specific experience with this insulin and will defer to the experts in this insulin if there is time for them to weigh in before your next shot. Just didn't want you to go completely unanswered on this if time was running short.
     
  19. MrWorfMen's Mom

    MrWorfMen's Mom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2015
    Was that 319 reading a fasting BG (no food within 2 hours of the test?
    If so I'd drop the dose back to 2u. Can you get a mid cycle test during the day today?
     
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  20. fluffles5178

    fluffles5178 Member

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2019
    Yes - the 319 was a fasting BG. I am home today, so yes - I’ll be doing a mid cycle. Thank you
     

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