My kitty doesn't seem to be getting better.

Discussion in 'Feline Health - (Welcome & Main Forum)' started by acsmith1972, Dec 19, 2016.

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  1. acsmith1972

    acsmith1972 Member

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    Dec 19, 2016
    Fluffer has been a family member for almost 14 years. I was there when he was born. He's been like a best friend to me. His normal weight was 24 pounds. His mother was a Tortoise shell, and he seems to be part Maine Coon. His mother was an outdoor cat. Anyway, his favorite activities were eating, sleeping, cuddling, eating, kicking the wall, and eating. I usually got him a hair cut every 6 months or so from the long hair and didn't really notice the weight drop till after his mosy recent cut. He had dropped to 15 pounds. The vet checked everything, it wasn't his pancreas, no tumors, but, obviously, diabetic. He's been on the insulin that starts with the letter V. Not sure the name right now. 2 units twice daily. In the week since he started he stopped peeing as much, stopped drinking crazy water, and gained 3 pounds. I checked last night and he's at 11 pounds and looks lethargic. He goes for a day of monitoring tomorrow, but I can't lose this guy. He and his sister are family. I'd do anything for them. The vet had said the dry food was okay, and for wet food, ironically, he only likes Pate. How do I ween him off the dry crap? They're both free-fed. I work crazy hours, 70 a week. Set meal times are hard to do. Is there anything I can do like today when I'm home tonight to help him? Would kitty milk be okay? I want to cheer him up and make sure he's okay for his visit tomorrow. I'm assuming stopping the insulin would be bad? Help! Thanks.
     
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2016
  2. Larry and Kitties

    Larry and Kitties Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2009
    Welcome.
    - Sounds like you are using Vetsulin. Vetsuli is reallu for dogs and does not work OK for most cats since it does not last 12 hours.
    Good insulins are the human Lantus and Levemir and the pet insulins ProZinc and BCP PZI. For those two human insulin it is best to get the 5 pack of 3 ml disposable pens via a 10 ml vial. Although per ml the vial is less expensive most cats will not use up a 10 ml vial before the insulin goes bad/becomes ineffective.
    - Most of us here test our cat's blood glucose at home using a human meter. We test before each shot and periodically between shots. We record our reading and other info in a spreadsheet. See:
    http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/fdmb-spreadsheet-instructions.130337/
    With home testing you can find out what is going on so the insulin dose can be adjusted as necessary.
    Vet stress can raise BG by 100 or more points (USA) so home testing is better and also saves money.
    - A low-carb canned is best. No reason for a prescription food. Here is a list of commercial low-carb canned
    http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/shortcut-shopping-list-all-8-or-less-updated.117688/
    Dry is the last choice, even for the low-carb dry foods like Young Again Zero Carb and Evo Turkey and Chicken cat and kitten food.
    - Here is a link to home testing blood sugar
    http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/hometesting-links-and-tips.287/
     
  3. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Aug 17, 2016
    The insulin is Vetsulin. It seems from your post that he's only been on it a week. Am I correct?
    This might be too high a dose and it could be causing his blood glucose to go too low. That can make him weak, listless and lethargic.
    You can easily learn to test blood glucose at home and we can help. A day of monitoring at the vet's is expensive and it can cause the cat to be stressed. This can lead to higher blood glucose levels and if the vet decides on a new dose based on those numbers it might be too high.
    You don't have to lose him. We can help you learn the skills you need to keep him safe and healthy.
    Wrong a hundred times over!! The wet pates like Friskies, Fancy Feast, etc. are what we suggest that people feed their diabetic cat.
    If you feed only wet pate, would he eat that happily? Doesn't sound like he's a kibble addict from what your post says. There are automatic feeders that can be used.
    Insulin is best given twice a day 12 hours apart. Some types have more scheduling flexibility than others.
    Feed him pate. Come back here and begin looking over the general info on home testing, etc. Take it in small bites because there's a lot to absorb. It's very overwhelming at first but you'd be surprised how quickly you can learn the skills and get up to speed. And you can ask any questions you have here. There's no such thing as a stupid question.
    I don't know its carb content.
    You shouldn't stop the insulin but I'm sure you'll be getting advice on here to lower the dose, learn to home test, and wean him off all dry food before any dose increase is considered. :)
     
    Sharon14 likes this.
  4. acsmith1972

    acsmith1972 Member

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    Dec 19, 2016
    The vet, not our regular (we had a coupon for a free VCA vet visit) said the other insulin is expensive and doesn't keep. Price isn't a huge obstacle, but it is this month. This new vet seems nice, but we'll go back to our regular vet soon. We live in Fairfield, CT so it's super expensive out here.
     
  5. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Aug 17, 2016
    If it's Lantus, it can be purchased with a prescription from a vet from Marks Marine Pharmacy in Canada for a much better price. It can last 3 to 6 months if properly handled and kept in the fridge. ProZinc is expensive on both sides of the border but will last 2+ months if properly stored and handled. It's my understanding that Vetsulin, the one you have, has to be replaced monthly.
     
  6. Olive & Paula

    Olive & Paula Well-Known Member

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    Sep 6, 2015
    Other insulin does keep very well if stored properly. Most people here get it from Canada as it is way more affordable than in the U.S. A box of 5 pens is the best deal and can last well over 6 months depending on dose and care. You will need a script for it. You would use regular insulin syringes and pull up your dose just like you would from a vial.
     
  7. Critter Mom

    Critter Mom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2014
    Welcome to you and your kitties.

    If the other insulin is Lantus (aka insulin glargine) it is expensive in the US but many members here order it from Canada for a fraction of the US price. See this thread for details (scroll down to the end of the thread).

    http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/insulin-from-canadian-pharmacies.49608/page-2#post-1344374

    After a vial or cartridge of Lantus is opened it is good for about 6 months provided its properly handled and refrigerated. Most cats need only a small dose so it can take several months to use up a single pen cartridge.

    FYI if Lantus is prescribed there's also a supply closet here where you can often get Lantus cheaper. Here's the link:

    http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/forums/supply-closet-for-sale-or-free.15/

    If you have a choice of insulin then it is helpful to know that doses of Lantus, Levemir or Prozinc are typically gentler in action and longer-lasting than Vetsulin in cats (and may significantly improve chance of achieving diabetic remission if following a suitable treatment protocol).

    Here's a link to vet Dr Lisa Pierson's tips for transitioning cats from dry to wet food:

    http://catinfo.org/docs/TipsForTransitioning1-14-11.pdf

    Because your boy has started insulin treatment then you need to be closely home monitoring his BG levels BEFORE AND THROUGHOUT the diet transition: BG levels can fall significantly and quickly during the changeover so care is needed with insulin dose. More important safety information about this from Dr Pierson here:

    http://catinfo.org/?link=felinediabetes


    Mogs
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  8. Critter Mom

    Critter Mom Well-Known Member

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    Jun 16, 2014
    The lethargy and additional weight loss are concerning. It is good that you're taking him to the vet tomorrow.

    Have you checked for ketones in the urine? (Keto-diastix or similar are available at pharmacies or other places where you can get diabetic supplies). Helpful links:

    Are you testing for ketones?

    Urine testing tips

    For information: if a trace positive ketone result is obtained call vet straight away for advice; if any higher than trace kitty needs to be taken to a vet immediately for emergency treatment to reduce ketone levels and prevent DKA.

    Check to see whether your little fella is properly hydrated. (Pull up the scruff of the neck and check the gums. If the scruff doesn't 'snap back' or if the gums are sticky these signs point to dehydration which can make a cat feel lousy and possibly lethargic.) If you need to encourage him to drink more, poaching a breast of chicken in water it will create a flavoured broth which may tempt him to take in more fluids. With the lethargy present, if he is dehydrated I recommend you give your vet a call to get prompt advice on how to proceed.


    Mogs
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  9. acsmith1972

    acsmith1972 Member

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    Dec 19, 2016
    The vet called. Fluffer is spending the day there getting monitored. Apparently his blood sugar has gone down some. But they'll watch him all day. One concernine thing is they told my wife his belly feels doughy. Same as last week when they didn't have an issue with that. They asked about his poop and pee, which from what I've seen looks normal. He is peeing less. They asked if he's vomiting, she said not as much now. In the last week one time as opposed to every other day before. I think that's from eating too fast. Anyway, now they want to do Xrays. This is a really bad week for this. We're already up to $800 in vet bills for the last week. Do you guys think he can go two weeks without the Xrays? If it's life or death I'll obviously do it now. If it's exploratory maybe it can wait two weeks till we have more money on hand? No idea what they'd be looking for now. Hopefully nothing serious. I would think losing 40% of his mass would be why his belly is doughy, but that's just me. I also noticed lots of dandruff this las week. His coat was looking better but now it's looking matted again. Maybe a bath is in order?
     
  10. acsmith1972

    acsmith1972 Member

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    Dec 19, 2016
    I hate this new vet. I'm bringing him back to our regular vet. Fluffer also has a cauliflower eat that gets infected and has dental issues. So this new vet''s solution? "He seems unhappy, so if we can't manage that we need to talk about euthanasia." I told her no, that's not happening. I'm not killing my cat because the vet doesn't have the answer. My baby still cuddles every night, puring like crazy, and he still comes down two flights of stairs when he hears us come home, he still loves his treats, he loves us and we love him. Bad vet, bad!
     
  11. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Aug 17, 2016
    Diabetes can affect coat condition. As blood glucose levels come down over time his coat will improve. If he's not urgently ill I think you could wait 2 weeks for Xrays.
     
  12. acsmith1972

    acsmith1972 Member

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    Dec 19, 2016
    He doesn't seem urgently ill, just lethargic. Hopefully he can wait for our regular vet.
     
  13. Critter Mom

    Critter Mom Well-Known Member

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    Jun 16, 2014
    Air is blue over here after what that vet said! :mad:

    Two things jump out at me:

    * initial weight gain after starting insulin followed by return to weight loss. (I am assuming that Fluffers is still eating well.)

    * initial improvement in coat condition followed by deterioration in coat condition again.

    This would point me to ask the vets to look closely at the Vetsulin dose.

    Did you introduce ANY lower carb food into Fluffer's diet since he started on the 2IU dose of Vetsulin? If yes, then the 2IU dose might be too high as a consequence of the reduction in carb load.

    Cats insulin needs change and if the dose isn't adjusted it can end up either too high or too low - and both too much AND too little insulin can lead to BG levels increasing. If it were my cat on Vetsulin I would look for BG checks to be run before giving any insulin (to make sure it's safe to do so) followed by blood glucose checks every hour for the next 4-5 hours to see whether the cat was going low (or having very large BG drops) very early in the cycle. Sometimes too high a dose of Vetsulin can really tank BG levels early in the cycle (sometimes as early as +1.5 hours after the dose was given) and if a curve is run where the first test is +3 hours after the injection such lows would be missed.

    Make sure the vets check Fluffers for ketones today!!!

    As to the lethargy, high blood glucose levels can make a cat feel depressed and lethargic. Wide swings in BG can make a cat feel lousy and lethargic. Low BG can sometimes manifest as lethargy. Vetsulin disagrees with some cats and can also cause low mood and lethargy (which typically resolves when the cat is switched to another insulin which agrees with it better.) Ketones can make a cat feel lousy and lethargic, as can pancreatitis (they can look really wiped out before treatment starts). Dehydration can make a cat lethargic. All of these can be addressed so I hope the vets will run appropriate diagnostics to determine whether any of these factors might be making Fluffers feel poorly at the moment.

    As a precaution I'd also suggest asking the vets to run another pancreatitis blood test today. If they offer the SNAP fPL test they should be able to get a Yes/No result today. (The Spec fPL needs to be sent to an external laboratory but it returns a numerical result indicative of severity of any inflammation present.)

    Rooting for Fluffers in the Shire.

    (((Fluffers)))


    Mogs
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    Last edited: Dec 20, 2016
  14. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Aug 17, 2016
    It's still early days in Fluffer's treatment. You need to find the right dose of insulin and have a routine of testing BG at home in a systematic way: before food and shot AM and PM and one other test at least during a cycle a few hours away from shot time. We also recommend setting up a spreasdsheet like we use here. It's viewable by other members and it's how we see what's going on with Fluffer so we can offer advice.

    This basic approach will definitely help you get your guy feeling better. Sound like a plan?
     
  15. acsmith1972

    acsmith1972 Member

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    Dec 19, 2016
    Yes, except I have two free-fed cats with different eating habits and I work 12 hours a day 7 days a week. I can definitely do the spreadsheet and shots twice a day but before meals is really hard. Also, would making their food be a better option than friskies pate and dry food?
     
  16. Critter Mom

    Critter Mom Well-Known Member

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    Jun 16, 2014
    If you treat Fluffers with a long-acting insulin like Levemir or Lantus it would be easier to accommodate a grazing-based feeding schedule. With his being underweight at the moment free feeding is actually recommended (per Vetsulin website). With Vetsulin typically hitting hard and fast early in the cycle you really need to make sure a cat has eaten quite a substantial feed about 20-30 minutes before administering each dose so the feeding schedule would be more restrictive.


    Mogs
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  17. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Aug 17, 2016
    You need no food for 2 hours before BG testing in order to have a valid number to determine whether a planned dose is too high or not. That has to be the case AM and PM or you're shooting insulin blind. This could have disastrous consequences. There are many people on here with schedule constraints who have found that timed feeders that respond to each cat individually via a chip in a collar work well. These feeders allow you to give meals at timed intervals and the only cat a feeder will open for is the one wearing the proper chip.

    No dry food is recommended. Friskies pates are fine. There are people who feed homemade food but you need proper recipes and have to add suppplements. Given your schedule, commercial canned is much easier.

    Looking after a diabetic kitty is doable but does require adjustment on your part and a willingness to try new ways of doing things. It can take some ingenuity, trial and error. You can always post on this forum asking how others manage with a very full work schedule. I'm sure you're not alone.
     
  18. acsmith1972

    acsmith1972 Member

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    Dec 19, 2016
    I can open his wet food before I do the shot then wait twenty minutes or so to give his dosage. He typically eats the wet stuff for 5 minutes then ignores it. He also likes fresh dry food on top of a bowl of fresh dry food. He's a silly one.
     
  19. acsmith1972

    acsmith1972 Member

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    Dec 19, 2016
    I called his regular vet and told them everything. His next visit will be there. This just all happened at the worst time for all if us. We'll be more careful to have a kitty emergency savings account after this.
     
  20. Critter Mom

    Critter Mom Well-Known Member

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    Jun 16, 2014
    Did the vets get a ketone check done today?

    It's really important to keep a regular check on ketones in general but especially when a cat is poorly and not yet regulated. Early detection of ketones greatly simplifies treatment and helps prevent DKA. (For information, DKA is potentially life-threatening and very expensive to treat.) A quick and simple urine test is all that's needed to help keep a kitty safe.


    Mogs
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  21. acsmith1972

    acsmith1972 Member

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    Dec 19, 2016
    His results today. I don't know what's what but the vet upped his dose from 2 to 3 units twice daily.
     

    Attached Files:

  22. Nan & Amber (GA)

    Nan & Amber (GA) Well-Known Member

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    Mar 19, 2016
    Did the vet give a reason for increasing to 3U????? That is a lot of insulin, and a big jump from the previous level (here, we recommend changing insulin doses in steps 0f 0.25-0.5 units).

    Have you already given tonight's shot? I'm hoping some of the experienced dose mavens can step in here, but if it were my cat and I were the one holding the syringe, I would be very very cautious about giving that much insulin if I weren't able to monitor blood glucose. Fluffers definitely needs some insulin, but you want to be sure you can keep him safe, too, and I don't think I understand the vet's logic about recommending that high a dose at this point.

    Hang in there, keep asking questions!
     
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  23. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    My opinion is that a jump to 3 units is far too large. Your lab report says the blood glucose was 454 as measured at the clinic. It might well be lower at home. You must eliminate all dry food and accumulate BG data going forward to see if the dose he's already on is correct.
     
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  24. Critter Mom

    Critter Mom Well-Known Member

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    @Kris & Teasel - Clarification: Labs show BG at 454mg/dL. Glucose in urine, too.


    Mogs
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  25. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    I saw that and corrected my post. Glucose in urine is to be expected at this point. I still think an increase to 3 u is too much.
     
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  26. Critter Mom

    Critter Mom Well-Known Member

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    Jun 16, 2014
    A 1-unit jump is very big for a cat. In the absence of a full glucose curve today at the vets to check nadir and without home BG monitoring I worry more about this increase, too.


    Mogs
     
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  27. acsmith1972

    acsmith1972 Member

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    Dec 19, 2016
    They did the complete check at the vet today. That was their advice. According to my wife he's really happy now, went right to the food dish. I have no more money this week to buy any of this stuff to do it myself. I'm going to follow what they said and see how it goes. I talked to the regular vet who asked for his blood work. They can do the follow-up there and x-rays are cheaper by $100 at our usual vet. I should've started this there.
     
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  28. Critter Mom

    Critter Mom Well-Known Member

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    Jun 16, 2014
    @acsmith1972 -

    Home testing before giving insulin and grabbing what mid-cycle tests one can manage is the only way to get a more accurate picture of whether an insulin dose is safe and whether it is actually working effectively to help the cat to get better. I recognise that we harp on quite a bit about home testing here but that is solely because we see every day how much it can improve insulin treatment outcomes because it takes guesswork out of the equation.

    We know how much you love and want to help Fluffer to feel better. As soon as you can afford it I suggest you pick up a Relion Micro or Relion Confirm glucometer* and matching test strips from Walmart. They're very widely used by US members because they work with a very small blood sample and the test strips are affordable (and far cheaper than pet meter strips). It is possibly the best Christmas present Fluffer could get this year! :)


    Mogs


    (* Note: Human meters are perfectly adequate for home monitoring a cat's BG. A cat-specific reference range needs to be used in conjunction with human meters. Details available here when you need them.)

    .
     
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2016
  29. JanetNJ

    JanetNJ Well-Known Member

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    Jun 8, 2016
    If you want to keep fry out all day for them to graze on, then consider young again zero carb food. You can get it online at Youngagainpetfood.com. They will send a free sample if you ask for it. Doesn't cause bg spikes at all. This food and Evo Cat and Kitten are the ONLY diabetic friendly dry options. I credit young again food with helping my cat into remission.
     
  30. Misterbeesmom

    Misterbeesmom Well-Known Member

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    Apr 25, 2016
    Good grief what is it with some vets!? So thankful you are on top of things!
     
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  31. acsmith1972

    acsmith1972 Member

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    Dec 19, 2016
    The vet said they don't have to stop eating dry food, just that it needs to be low carb. The Friskies they eat seems to be low carb. I've tried other better dry foods and they hate it. We recently did a taste test: ten bowls with the boxes or bags behind them. They ignored the stuff like Purine One, Iams, etc, and devoured the cheap stuff. The same applies to wet food. They'll ignore it if it isn't on par with the low end. Newman's, for example, they hate. They're strange. Our kitries just seem to like cheap food. Fluffer seems a lot better. He was chasing Luna the other night and the laser pointer. He's going up and down stairs a lot more and purring loudly when it's wet food time. In a few days I'll make an appointment with our original vet.
     
  32. JanetNJ

    JanetNJ Well-Known Member

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    Jun 8, 2016
    Friskies dry is not low carb at all. Ideally a diabetic cat's food should be under 10%. The prescription dm isn't even as low as ideal at 12%. The only low carb dry is young again zero carb at less than 1% and Evo Cat and Kitten which is believe (someone correct me if I'm wrong) is about 4-5%. Friskies dry is somewhere in the 30% range. Way too high to feed a diabetic.
     
  33. acsmith1972

    acsmith1972 Member

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    Dec 19, 2016
    It's actually Purine Cat Chow Complete that they love. I don't know how to get them to eat good food.
     
  34. JanetNJ

    JanetNJ Well-Known Member

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  35. Lisa and Smoky

    Lisa and Smoky Well-Known Member

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    The carbs in this food are around 34%.
    My mom gave it to her cat before he had kidney problems. It has too many starches in it and made her kitty worse.
     
  36. acsmith1972

    acsmith1972 Member

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  37. Critter Mom

    Critter Mom Well-Known Member

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    It's a good pet meter but the test strips for it are much more expensive than those for human meters, hence why the majority of members here use human meters to test their kitties.

    If you're in the US Walmart Relion Confirm and Micro glucometers are very popular with members here. The strips are affordable and they work with only a small sample of blood.

    (Note: Human and pet meters need to be used with different BG reference ranges. Both are perfectly acceptable for monitoring cats' BG levels.)


    Mogs
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  38. Chris & China (GA)

    Chris & China (GA) Well-Known Member

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    May 10, 2013
    The AlphaTrak is a great meter but there are some disadvantages you should consider....the replacement strips are often about $1 EACH .....and if you run low on them at 3am on a Sunday morning (when our kitties have a tendency to drop low), there's no way to get more of them until you can either get to a vets office or get them online and wait for shipping

    Most of us here use human meters like the Relion Confirm or Micro from WalMart (if you live in the US).....the strips are affordable ($35.88/100) and those two meters take the tiniest sample size (which is important on "new" ears)

    You can also get strips any time you need them!!

    All our protocols were written with human meters in mind so we're all very comfortable understanding how to use them and interpret the results.
     
  39. acsmith1972

    acsmith1972 Member

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    Dec 19, 2016
    So when you do the reading with the human ones are the numbers the same or do you have to adjust it for a cat? Like is a 400 still a 400?

    Also, do you guys test your cats every day? I already inject Fluffer twice a day now and he's starting to run away when he sees me get the needles. He does the same thing when I go to clean his ear, though. All he has to do is hear the water then hear a paper towel rip and he runs. lol
     
  40. acsmith1972

    acsmith1972 Member

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  41. Critter Mom

    Critter Mom Well-Known Member

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    The Prime has cheaper strips but it needs a larger blood sample to test.
     
  42. acsmith1972

    acsmith1972 Member

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  43. Chris & China (GA)

    Chris & China (GA) Well-Known Member

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    We also hear a lot of people get more error messages with the Prime than with the Confirm or Micro

    If you have to use several strips to get a reading because of error messages, the cheaper strips aren't so cheap anymore.

    The main number you need to know is the "too low" number.....On a human meter, below 50 is your "time to act".....on a pet meter, it's 68

    At low numbers, they're very close....as the numbers go up, the pet and human meters really don't compare...but "too high" is "too high" whether it's on a human meter or pet meter

    You always want to test before shooting.....it's the only way to know if they're high enough to get any insulin at all!!....and then if at all possible, it's important to get a mid-cycle test on the AM cycle (to see how low they're going) and a "before bed" test on the PM cycle. Most cats go lower at night, so it's really important to get that last test to be able to sleep well and not worry
     
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  44. Chris & China (GA)

    Chris & China (GA) Well-Known Member

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    May 10, 2013
    Here's something I wrote up for others that needed help with testing...maybe it'll help you too!

    It can be really helpful to establish a routine with testing. Pick one spot that you want your "testing spot" to be (I like the kitchen counter because it's got good light and it's at a good height....it also already blocked 2 escape routes due to the wall and the backsplash) It can be anywhere though...a rug on the floor, a table, a particular spot on the couch...wherever is good for you. Take him there as many times a day as you can and just give his ears a quick rub and then he gets a yummy (low carb) treat. Most cats aren't objecting so much with the poking..it's the fooling with their ears they don't like, but once they're desensitized to it and learn to associate a certain place with the treats, they usually start to come when they're called! Or even when they hear us opening the test kit!

    You also have to remember...you're not poking him to hurt him...you're testing him to keep him safe and understand what's going on inside his body. There's just nothing better than truly understanding what's going on inside your kitty's body and with this disease, the more knowledge you have, the more power you have against it. The edges of the ears have very few pain receptors, so it really doesn't hurt them. Also, if you're nervous and tense, it's going to make your kitty nervous and tense too. As silly as it might seem, try singing! It forces you to use a different part of your brain!

    It's also important to make sure his ear is warm. A small sock filled with a little rice and microwaved or a small pill bottle filled with warm water (check temp against your wrist like you would a baby bottle) works well.

    When you're first starting, it's also important to use a lower gauge lancet, like 25-28 gauge. Most of the "lancet devices" come with 33 gauge lancets and they are just too tiny to start with. The bigger lancets (that are lower numbers) make a bigger "hole". As you poke more and more, the ears will grow new capillaries and will be easier and easier to get blood from...we call it "learning to bleed"

    Finding the right "treat" will be a great help too!
    Freeze dried chicken, bonito flakes, little pieces of baked chicken...whatever low carb treat you can find that he really enjoys will help him to associate the testing with the treat! China's Achilles heel was baked chicken, so I'd bake a piece, chop it into bite sized pieces, put some in the refrigerator and freeze the rest to use as needed. It didn't take long for her to come any time I picked up the meter!
     
  45. JanetNJ

    JanetNJ Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2016
    I personally love my alphatrak meter because I like that in getting the same readings as the vet. It is pricy though but that trade off was worth it to me. If price is a concern then get a human meter but realize your reading will be much lower than your vet.
     
  46. acsmith1972

    acsmith1972 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2016
    I'm inclined to get the Alpha and maybe the other human ones like the one from Bayer, too. But what does it mean the reading will be lower with the human ones? Like do you have an example like x=y?
     
  47. Chris & China (GA)

    Chris & China (GA) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 10, 2013
    No....there's no direct correlation other than the one example of 50 on a human meter = 68 on a pet meter

    If you can afford the AT, then that's fine.....Most of us can't, especially with as often as we test....even if I only tested China 4 times a day (the 2 Pre-shots and 2 mid-cycle's), it would cost me $120 a month just in strips...and most of us test more than that!!

    What's most important is learning the "scale"....on a human meter, normal numbers are 50-120....on a pet meter they're 68- about 150.....at those levels, the pancreas can heal and (hopefully) resume working again!
     
  48. acsmith1972

    acsmith1972 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2016
    I don't think I'd test Fluffer 4 times a day, but I'm making a vet appointment soon to follow up with our regular vet and I'll see what he says. I trust him. he's a great vet. Fluffed is definitely happier since the increase. He's eating a lot more and gaining some weight and he's playing again, chasing Kuna around. I love when they play hide and seek. It's so cute. But he's still drinking lots of water. I want to talk to the vet about switching his diet. Maybe I can do a low carb food if I lower the dosage he gets of insulin.
     
  49. Meya14

    Meya14 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2015
  50. acsmith1972

    acsmith1972 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2016
  51. Critter Mom

    Critter Mom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2014
    For the food change it really is necessary to closely monitor blood glucose levels throughout the transition and a little bit beyond to keep a kitty safe. More on this here:

    http://catinfo.org/?link=felinediabetes


    Mogs
    .
     
  52. acsmith1972

    acsmith1972 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2016
    I'm not really sure how to use the glucose pen thing to test Fluffer. I tried using just the lancet before and I couldn't get it in his ear enough to draw blood. I tried his paw and he wasn't happy about that so I gave up. I tried using the device on a piece of paper set both high and low and it didn't make a hole. Is that because you have to press it into the skin so a tiny bit of skin goes into the hole? I didn't want to test it out on my finger since needles like that kind of stress me out. I don't know, maybe I'll try it tomorrow. I think it said it's 30 gauge. Is that the wrong size for cats?
     
  53. Lisa and Smoky

    Lisa and Smoky Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2016
    I use 26 gauge lancets on Smoky. I tried the 30-33 inch but they were too thin to pierce the skin. It's a holiday so board might not be as busy today. I'm fairly new myself and other more experienced members should be on soon to help you.
    Hope this helps.:bighug:
     
  54. Critter Mom

    Critter Mom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2014
    Try freehanding with just the lancet. Make sure the bevelled edge of the lancet is facing you (twist it around under a good light to see the bevel).

    Smear a very thin film of Vaseline or neosporin over the test site.

    Warm the ear really well.

    Put a 1" strip of kitchen paper around your index finger then place it under the edge of the ear.

    Curl the ear around your index finger.

    Hold the edge of the ear a little taut with your thumb and middle finger and prick with the lancet at a 45 degree angle.

    Hope some of these tips work for you.


    Mogs
    .
     
    Lisa and Smoky likes this.
  55. Sootyca

    Sootyca Member

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2016
    I cant help with blood testing as I'm really rubbish at it - but I do know that when Sky has been in front of the fire toasting herself she is much easier to get blood out of then when I try at other times.
     
    Critter Mom likes this.
  56. JanetNJ

    JanetNJ Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2016
    Don't bother with the Lancet device... But do get a thicker lancet. 28 gauge works for me... But in the beginning I would often have to poke 2 or three times in the same spot to get a drop. Even this morning I had to double poke because her ear was too cold and I didn't warm it up enough.
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2017
    Critter Mom likes this.
  57. Nan & Amber (GA)

    Nan & Amber (GA) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2016
    Hi--

    Just repeating what others have said: the 30 gauge may be a bit too small when you are first starting out with the ears-- if you can, try to pick up some 28 or bigger (smaller number) lancets. Later on, after repeated pokes have stimulated additional capillary growth, the thinner lancets work fine, so don't throw out the ones you have!

    It does take a while for the ear pokes to work reliably. Just be patient and keep at it. Don't forget to give treats and pets after every attempt, whether or not it is successful-- the whole process gets a lot easier with a willing patient!
     
  58. acsmith1972

    acsmith1972 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2016
    Yeah, I'll order some of the 28s later today. Fluffer's a really docile cat. So was his mommy and so is his sister. I give them lots of attention and never ever yell at them for anything and they're super relaxed because of it. I hate the idea of pricking my kitties for blood, but here's a question: when I give him his shots of glucose, couldn't I just use one of those needles to draw a teeny bit of blood? It's much easier to use those. I mean I don't like that idea much either as it involves sticking him more often but I know I can get those needles in no problem.
     
  59. Larry and Kitties

    Larry and Kitties Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2009
    Not really. To draw blood with a syringe you have to penetrate a vein but yo do not want to inject the insulin direclty into a vein.
     
  60. acsmith1972

    acsmith1972 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2016
    No, I meant with a clean needle, not injecting, using it just to draw. I guess I'll just keep trying with the lancets. At his next vet appointment I'll ask the vet to show me how to do it. I watched the youtube videos, but they haven't helped me thus far.
     
  61. Critter Mom

    Critter Mom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2014
    I don't know whether this will help but when I first started to home test I was really nervous about warming Saoirse's ears and it was really tricky getting a blood sample. When I had exhausted all other possibilities I tried warming her ear more, and for a lot longer. The difference it made to getting a blood sample was like night and day! I actually couldn't get over just how long I needed to warm the ear to be able to draw samples reliably; it felt like forever!

    As I continued to test and more capillaries formed at the test sites it became much easier to get a sample with the first poke (and somewhat less time ear warming!).

    It can be harder to warm the ear enough in the cold months of the year.


    Mogs
    .
     
    Jan Radar (GA) likes this.
  62. Callie & Patches

    Callie & Patches Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2016
    I saw a meter for pets on Amazon. it's called Advocate, I think, it wa highly rated and compares with the AlphaTrack. It costs about $20 for the starter kit and the same for the strips. It uses the same number system as the Vet uses I ordered one to keep for a spare. I did a test with both meters using the same drop of blood the result was just a few points differences I‘ve mentioned this before, but no one seems interested. It is accurate, inexpensive and uses the numbers that vets understand. What more could you want? Do you want it to do a dance act?
     
  63. Lisa and Smoky

    Lisa and Smoky Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2016
    I use a relion meter but I have an AT2 as a spare to do occasional curves. I was thinking about buying an Advocate meter to use as a spare once my FS light strips run out. Thanks for the info on it.
     
  64. acsmith1972

    acsmith1972 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2016
    The brand doesn't really matter to me. Just the cost of everything and the reviews. The one I got has great reviews, was a good price and has a really low price for supplies. All I have to do now is figure out how to get a sample.
     
  65. Fern

    Fern New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2016
    As a new member initially having problems with testing here is what I have found that makes the difference between a good test and a fumbling mess.
    1. I get all my supplies out and easy to reach also a second strip handy should the meter read error.
    2. I have 1/4 filled a sock with rice per the suggestion and warm it for 40 seconds in the micro wave. Very important.
    3. I have found the 'right' place for us
    4. I wrap her up in a thick towel and give her lots of love. Very important.
    5 . I place a cotton ball in her ear and use my finger to support it whilst finding a good spot using light to see the cappillaries.
    6. Prick, test.
    7. When finished give a little piece of dried meat cat treat.

    After a week of staying with the same routine fern is now purring instead of fighting and or biting me! Big relief......and it does get easier......good luck.
     
  66. Critter Mom

    Critter Mom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2014
    (((Fern & Judy)))

    Isn't it so cool when they let us know it's OK! :cat:


    Mogs
    .
     
  67. acsmith1972

    acsmith1972 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2016
    Can Fluffer miss one shot? I'm supposed to go to Vermont Monday and come back Tuesday. I can give him his morning shot before we go and come back 24 hours later but getting him the evening shot is the issue.
     
  68. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2016
    I've had to do that on one or two occasions. He should be OK. If you have a fur shot he misses a dose so it's no different.
     
  69. acsmith1972

    acsmith1972 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2016
    What's a fur shot? Anyway, I'm making an appointment with the vet Monday on the way to Vermont for some time during the week after we get back. My wife really wants to go to VT because her mom and sis are here from Peru. They haven't seen each other in 3 years and they want to go see snow....it just snowed 8 inches here today. I don't want to go, especially since I drive for a living but I'll never hear the end of it if I don't. Fluffer has Luna to take care of him, that's his sister. I might ask my sister if she can stop by and give him his evening shot, but you know how some families are, they don't like helping out. Oh, another thing: I know he drinks lots of water because of all of this but is water bad for him because of this? I just got a second automatic water bowl (looks like a toilet, made by Drinkwell) and put it in my room with food up here, too. He goes down a lot for water so I figured this would be better and my other cat Luna loves it.
     
  70. acsmith1972

    acsmith1972 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2016
  71. Critter Mom

    Critter Mom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2014
    What a beauty! :)
     
  72. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2016
    A fur shot is happens when you think you put the syringe needle into the skin fold properly but actually haven't so you end up accidentally injecting the insulin into the fur. The fur is wet of course and also smells of insulin - a strong "Band-aid" odour is the way some people describe it.

    There's no problem letting him drink water whenever he wants. The thirstiness will be reduced as BG numbers come down.
     
  73. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2016
    Beautiful kitty!
     
  74. acsmith1972

    acsmith1972 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2016
    I brought Fluffer to the local vet we normally use. He switched him from Vetsulin to Prozinc. He said it's a better insulin for cats. He charges the rate he gets it for without marking it up, so it was $85 for the bottle. Seems reasonable since the stuff seems to last forever. I found a mail order company for syringes. $15 for 100. I had to give them the vet's name and all. I had no idea you need a script for syringes. That seems silly. You can buy a machete without a prescription...anyway, go those. Right now he's on one unit of this stuff. I was supposed to do the curve when we switched but I just spent $1200 on vet stuff in the last month so I'm tapped. The vet said a curve would be ideal but we can start low and do the fructose test next week to see where he's at. He said we'll likely have to go up in units. He also gave me a nice list of all the wet foods and things like the carb count, protein, etc. He said ideally all wet food. Having two cats and both of us working twelve hours a day six days a week a feeding schedule is really hard so we have to stick to free feeding them. He kind of implied having some dry food out isn't the worst, but they should really be on wet food. And obviously monitor reactions between a high protein diet and insulin.

    The other thing the other vet noticed was Fluffer has several bad teeth. I was just petting him and scratched his chin and he yowled. I've never heard him do that before so obviously something hurts bad. Wt food would probably help with that, too. I have some wet food, and I give it to them twice a day but he still sits in front of the crunchies bowl, too. I'm not sure how he chews hard stuff. I've had a few of my own teeth pulled. Years of neglect, smoking, coffee, lots of junk food. It's weird, I was such a healthy kid. Anyway, eating with an abcess hurts so I feel really guilty about that. I'm going to talk to this vet about that.

    Does anyone know if it's safe for older cats to be put under to do extractions? I'm really scared about that procedure for him. Aside from my wife my cats are my best friends. I don't want him to be in pain, but I also don't want anything bad to happen getting it fixed. Also, if he's having teeth removed will he still be able to eat? They other vet said he needs three out.
     
  75. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2016
    Your best source of advice about anesthesia and dental work on a diabetic cat is your vet. There are many people here who get dental work done on their diabetic cats so it's definitely possible. There are also toothless cats here who manage to eat wet food.

    ProZinc is generally gentler in its action than Vetsulin and you vet is starting your cat off at a good low dose. He's given you good advice as well about feeding wet food. It should be low carb - eg. Fancy Feast or Friskies pate (no gravy or sauce types). Kudos to him for giving you the insulin at a very good price!

    Would you be willing to set up the spreadsheet we use here? We'd all be able to see it and it would allow us to give advice much more easily as you start going down the ProZinc road.
     
  76. Lisa and Smoky

    Lisa and Smoky Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2016
    I paid to have a frutosamine test done and all that does is give you a view of his BG levels over the past several weeks. I home test my kitty so I already knew what his BG levels were. My vet basically told me since I am home testing I don't really need to have one done. That's a great price on prozinc, I pay $125 to $130 for a vial of it.
    You're right though about it lasting a while. I've had mine for almost 10 weeks now and still have about 85-90 % left yet. Of course, Smoky has been on fairly low doses of it so far.
     
  77. Larry and Kitties

    Larry and Kitties Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2009
    Last December I just had a dental done on my recently adopted 17-year-old tortie
     
  78. acsmith1972

    acsmith1972 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2016
    I have to take Fluffer back to the vet for the curve asap. I still can't get the thing to prick his ear no matter how many times I try and I'm sure it's pissing him off when I do. Better to have the vet check than not get it done. Aside from the Diabetes if I read the report from the other place I posted the right way Fluffer seems to be mostly okay. I know he has dental issues, which I'll address when I see the vet. I'm hoping I can drop him off Thursday or Friday. I work 12 hours a day every day but Sunday when I work 6 hours so vet visits are hard to do. I can get out early or go in late if I need to, though, so that's good. I just weighed Fluffer and he's down to 12.4 pounds. For a cat that was 24 pounds it's quite a shock having such a skinny cat. I mean my other cat Luna is 10 pounds but she's always been tiny. Worst timing ever, but I have an abscessed tooth that's three quarters fallen out and I need to get that taken care of myself. I still have some Vicodin from last year's visit, but I'm really trying not to use it unless I need to. I really don't like taking pills other than antibiotics for something like this. Anyway, Fluffer has also started pooping outside the litter box. I'm not sure why. I did change the litter to the pine fluff stuff a few weeks ago but it hasn't been a problem till now. I love the stuff. I can't smell anything and it's super easy to scoop. But since Fluffer maybe hates it I think I'll get a second litter box with regular litter and see if that helps. I'll do the spreadsheet thing once I figure out how to test Fluffer at home. The vet said he'll show me how to do it when I bring Fluffer next.
     
    StephG likes this.
  79. StephG

    StephG Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2016
    You can also free hand the ear prick. You just hold the lancet and poke vs using the auto-poker contraption. You can poke his paw pad too. 24 pound cat! WOW. So he's half the weight he use to be! I feed my cat extra to try to get him to gain weight. He has gained a bit but due to the extra food he needs a higher dose of insulin. He gets 5-6 units twice a day! $85 for a vial of prozinc is an excellent price! My vet sells it for $110 now. First bottle I bought was $140! They usually do blood work to see how his body will do with anesthesia. At least that is the norm in my area.
     
  80. JanetNJ

    JanetNJ Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2016
    You have 28 gauge lancets? Poking the sweet spot? Put a pad behind the ear and in one determined poke, just go through it until you feel it touch the pad. Then pinch on either side of the poke spot and massage a drop out.
     

    Attached Files:

  81. Sootyca

    Sootyca Member

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2016
    Ear pricking does get easier and it is much easier if the ear is really really warm.

    I still struggle with Sky sometimes but she puts up with me as she knows that immediately after the test she gets food.
     
  82. acsmith1972

    acsmith1972 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2016
    I'll try again tonight. here's a question: can I use the needle to draw blood from the spot I give Fluffer his injections to test his glucose?
     
  83. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2016
    No, the injection syringe needles are usually too fine a gauge and the needles long enough to bend easily.
     
  84. acsmith1972

    acsmith1972 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2016
    After I gave fluffer his shot about half an hour ago. He just started walking sideways, lifting his leg and bumping into stuff. I gave him some kitty treats then some honey and am trying to get him to drink water. This is the first time he ate BEFORE his shot. Could that be it? Should I head to the emergency vet?
     
  85. JanetNJ

    JanetNJ Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2016
    Seems like a hypoglycemic event. Test and see the numbers. Do you have high carb food you can give?
     
  86. JanetNJ

    JanetNJ Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2016
    Get that test with determination...... It could be serious, and if you can't, emergency vet
     
  87. acsmith1972

    acsmith1972 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2016
    I wound up having to not only save Fluffer but stop my wife from freaking out. It's cool, though, she was expressing how I was feeling inside. She called her mom in Peru who's a doctor who recommended honey. I put honey on my finger and fed it to Fluffer, mostly against his will, but the more honey I gave him the better he seemed to feel. He also ate a bunch of kitty cat treats. Probably not the best idea, but I'm guessing they also have sugars or whatever he needed to some extent. About 15 minutes after the initial signs he was walking fine again. I was scared because at first it looked like he was stroking out. He was lifting his back leg up in the air like he was trying to climb some giant invisible step. Then his front leg. I flew upstairs and got dressed and was ready to go when my wife's om said try honey. I thought I was about to lose my best friend. He has an appointment 8am Friday for the curve so I'll bring it up then. I want to completely cut out the dry food, too, but i want to double check with the vet with the dosage if it's okay to do that. Both cats love the dry food more than anything.
     
  88. JanetNJ

    JanetNJ Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2016
    So glad he's ok. Please follow this link to our section on hypo. Read and print it out. http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/how-to-treat-hypos-they-can-kill-print-this-out.15887/


    And this is a handy list of things you need to stock just in case.
    http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/jojo-and-bunnys-hypo-tool-box.2354/

    This hypoglycemic event calls for an immediate reduction in dose!!! Do not give the same dose or you risk another hypo. Know that for the next 1-3 days the numbers may be elevated because of a bounce.... It's the body's way of protecting itself.
     
  89. acsmith1972

    acsmith1972 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2016
    I was just watching tv with him and he had another episode. I don't know what to do. I can't get him to the vet today, we have a big snowstorm. He has an appointment Friday at 8 am but how do i manage this till then? Now I'm wondering if this happened every day on the new medicine. I usually give it to him before work so I'm not here right after that. The vet said this insulin is better than the other one he was on but maybe not?
     
  90. JanetNJ

    JanetNJ Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2016
    Did you give the same as yesterday? How much vetsulin is this? How long ago was the shot? Do honey, give high carb food. Wet food hots the system faster than dry, but do hc dry if that's what you have.
     
  91. StephG

    StephG Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2016
    Have you gotten a test done? Knowing his number would help. Keep offering food. They can go higher from honey then go back down after a bit.
     
  92. JanetNJ

    JanetNJ Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2016
    Oh good, I was just about to tag you.
     
  93. acsmith1972

    acsmith1972 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2016
    He was on the Vetsulin, but now he's on the Prozinc. I just read the possible side effects of Prozinc and it's kind of scary. I just assumed that they always work like they do when people have this issue. Now I'm afraid to sleep.
     
  94. JanetNJ

    JanetNJ Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2016
    You are going to want to get a test and then keep getting bg in him and test every 15-20 min
     
  95. acsmith1972

    acsmith1972 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2016
    He's ignoring all his food. He doesn't want wet or dry, he's even refusing kitty cat treats. I'm gonna see if he'll eat one of those licky things. The pouches with the pieces of meat in the sauce. I think it's Fancy Feast.
     
  96. acsmith1972

    acsmith1972 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2016
    I haven't been able to test him once yet. I still can't get the thing to prick his ear. I'm wondering if his ears don't have any blood in them. Warm or cold nothing happens. I tried his paw pad and that didn't work, eitther. Maybe the lancet is the wrong size. I think they're number 30.
     
  97. JanetNJ

    JanetNJ Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2016
    Good idea. If nothing else keep putting honey on the gums.
     
  98. JanetNJ

    JanetNJ Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2016
    Yes that's the problem. Size 28 or 26 is bigger and will work easier. Listen, don't use the device.... Hold it in your fingers. Put a cotton pad or tissue behind the ear and just POKE THROUGH THE EAR ON THE EDGE until you feel it touch the tissue. Do this with determination as you are trying to help him here.
     
  99. JanetNJ

    JanetNJ Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2016
    Did you give a reduced dose? How much compared to last night?

    What time?

    Which insulin. This is important so we know how much longer until he reaches the lowest point.
     
  100. acsmith1972

    acsmith1972 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2016
    The Prozinc. He gets 1 unit twice a day. I'll try the ear thing in a few hours. I'm so tired I can barely type. I still haven't gone to bed, been watching him all night.
     
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