New to the forum and confuse

Discussion in 'Prozinc / PZI' started by Bobi, Jul 13, 2019 at 7:41 AM.

  1. Bobi

    Bobi New Member

    Joined:
    Saturday
    Hi everyone

    My cat Bobi was diagnosed with diabetes last April and since then together with my veterinarian we are trying to regulate him.
    He is an 8 years old big cat but not overweight.
    I would like to say that I have other cats and they all eat grain-free dry and once a day wet food also grain-free or Gourmet or Sheba.
    It has not been easy because his values are varying a lot. It was done several blood works and everything is fine except for low potassium that after taking some pills for a while became normal again.
    I started giving Prozinc and from the beginning, I started with dry food for diabetic - just 1 tbs a day because he is really addicted - please do not judge, I'm trying my best to kept him far from dry -
    https://www.farmina.com/us/cat-food/farmina-vet-life-feline/84-diabetic-feline.html
    I even bought 2 microchip feeders to stop him to steal the food from others. He also eat wet food whenever he wants except for 2 hours before is shot (yes I've been reading your forum and site exhaustively).
    From the first day on the advice of my vet I have been testing at home with a human meter.
    All changes in insulin doses are made by the veterinarian to whom I send by mail Bobi’s SS every week.
    All the curves have been done at home by me.
    He also has a mild diabetic neuropathy and is taking vitamin B12 + folate – I made a mix with Solgar vitamins because we do not have zobaline.
    At the moment he is no longer always hungry and he doesn’t drink lots of water as he did in the beginning.

    I would like to ask if you can take a look at his numbers and give me your thoughts about it because I really can’t understand them.

    Thank you so much.

    P.S. I also post this one the main forum so please just advise me which one should I use?
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2019 at 9:38 AM
  2. Sharon14

    Sharon14 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2015
    Welcome! Sorry you haven’t had any replies. Weekends can be extra slow here. Is Bobbi still getting dry food? No judgment, I have a kibble addict myself, so I know how hard it can be to transition some kitties to wet only. Also be sure the vitamins you’re using do not contain any sugar. I’ll tag a few prozinc users that can help you see what’s going on with Bobbi
    @Djamila

    @Rachel

    @MrWorfMen's Mom
     
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  3. MrWorfMen's Mom

    MrWorfMen's Mom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2015
    Welcome to FDMB. I struggled to get my kitty off kibble too (she would not even touch wet food for years!) so I completely understand how difficult it can be. Bobi has to eat and all you can do is keep trying to wean him off the kibble. You've done a good job of reducing so far!

    The improvement in clinical signs is encouraging and while there are some high night cycle pre-shot tests, his morning readings are looking better.

    So happy to see you are home testing and thrilled to know your vet recommended it. Your vet is a keeper! I would suggest randomly taking mid cycle tests in the 4 to 7 hours post shot period. You've been testing at 6 hours post shot many days and might not be catching the lowest point in the cycle which is information you want to help make dosing decisions. I'd also suggest getting a test during the night cycle...otherwise you are missing half the picture. While it might not be possible to test in the 4 to 7 hours post shot period at night, grabbing a test before bed every night helps to see where Bobi is heading for the night.
     
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  4. Bobi

    Bobi New Member

    Joined:
    Saturday
    Hello good morning

    Thank you so much from the bottom of my heart for the encouraging words and I am sure that Vovi also thanks for them.
    I think his neuropathy got worse.
    We have a kind of ritual for his shots: I usually call him and he comes to me (very slowly now :(), I usually give him his shots in our bathroom that I have in my room where I have all the stuff.
    He usually jumps up the toilet (he's such an angel because he lets me do all the things so easily) and today he could not jump anymore – I had to help him.
    But anyway we are in the fight and my boy will improve I am sure. It breaks my heart to see my big love like that.
    Yes my vet is great - poor woman I call her so many times and she is there always for us - she is a vet by love not for money. She is our vet for almost 20 years.

    Today I'm going to make a curve and let's see how it goes.

    Thank you again for your precious help :cat::cat:
     
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  5. Sharon14

    Sharon14 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2015
    My kitty had bad neuropathy too. I bought some pet stairs so he could get on the bed and sofa. I hope today’s curve goes well
     
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  6. MrWorfMen's Mom

    MrWorfMen's Mom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2015
    The neuropathy will improve as you get Bobi better regulated. Make sure the Vitamin B12 you are using is methylcobalamin rather than cyanocobalamin.
     
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  7. Bobi

    Bobi New Member

    Joined:
    Saturday
    I use this: - with it I tried to make something similar to zobaline
    3 pills of this:
    https://www.lambertshealthcare.co.uk/vitamins/vitamin-b/vitamin-b12-1000ug/
    it's methylcobalamin.
    and 1/2 of this:
    https://www.lambertshealthcare.co.uk/vitamins/vitamin-b/folic-acid-400g/

    :):):)Today I'm really happy because his values at +7 are 152 :):):)

    He was asking for food at +6 and I gave him some wet Yarrah.

    With this values I don't think that my vet is going to change his dose. What is your opinion?
     
  8. Sharon14

    Sharon14 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2015
    Nice numbers today!:cool:
     
  9. MrWorfMen's Mom

    MrWorfMen's Mom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2015
    Very nice numbers today! There is still a bit of room to bring numbers down a bit but those numbers are encouraging. The vitamin mix you are using seems appropriate. It takes some time for the neuropathy to clear and the vitamin support will help that healing.
     
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  10. Bobi

    Bobi New Member

    Joined:
    Saturday
    Yeap I'm so happy:):):) but at the same time nervous because I'm so afraid of hypog... :nailbiting::nailbiting:

    Now +10 he is 164 but in two hours it's insuline time - imagine that he is less then 200, should I gave him his dose?
    My vet said me once that I should not change the dose to less and then in the morning give the normal dose.

    What's the No-shot number for you?
     
  11. MrWorfMen's Mom

    MrWorfMen's Mom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2015
    Normally we suggest 200 (human meter) as a no shoot number. If Bobi is right around 200, don't feed him and stall for 20 minutes then test him again to see if his BG is still rising. He dropped about 150 points today and kitties quite often go lower at night so if his PMPS is over 200 but lower than this morning and you give him the full dose, you definitely will need to check him around +3 to see how fast and how much he is dropping so you can intervene with food if it looks like he is having an active cycle.
     
  12. Bobi

    Bobi New Member

    Joined:
    Saturday
    Hi
    Now I'm nervous...

    At shot time - 22 h he was 213
    Then my daughter (25 years) who was with him (I needed to go out) feeded him and after phoned me telling me what she did and his values - at this moment we could not do anything because she already gave him food - but she tested 10 minutes after he eat and he was 234 (she didn't do the right thing but she didn't read this forum) and she give him the full dose.
    I will check him during the night and I pray for a calm night - I will check him at +3, then +6. What do you think?
    When you say he dropped 150 points today - how do you found this number?
    Hope that in the morning he will have good numbers to give him his dose without this stress.
    (sorry my english)

    TY once more for your help
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2019 at 5:07 PM
  13. Bobi

    Bobi New Member

    Joined:
    Saturday
    So we had a "good" night all in "pink" :rolleyes:.
    He was begging so much for dry food that I gave him a little bit - less of a tbs. Farmina grain free diabetic but at leats his AMPS was 291.
    Our vet is in holidays and the vet who saw his curve didn't make any changes.
    What do you think of his dose?
    He is with diarrhea (I think that was a fish wet food that made that) - I gave him Fortiflora and the vet gave me 1/4 of pill twice a day of Metronidazole for 6 days.

    :bighug::bighug::bighug:
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2019 at 12:17 PM
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  14. Bobi

    Bobi New Member

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    Saturday
    Oh god this is such a roller coaster now at PMPS he is 469... :banghead::(
     
  15. Peacock

    Peacock Member

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    Mar 4, 2019
    Did he have some more of the Farmina dry food, which apparently has a carbohydrate content of 17.5% ? My kitty had high numbers every time she ate even a little dry food. I am not judging, just acknowledging that the numbers might bounce a bit. I am not sure how long the effects last. FD is a scary roller coaster for sure!
     
  16. Bobi

    Bobi New Member

    Joined:
    Saturday
    Hi Peacock thanks for your answer.
    I understand that you are not judging :cat: my problem is that even after he eats wet food he wants dry (meowing non-stop) because it was the food that he had all day all his life (but I always give wet food all my cats at dinner).
    Here I can't find the dry food that you "recomend" here at the forum (YG and Dr. xxxx), we have Orijen, Acana, Natural greatness ... and a couple of others but I don't find any below the 18% I guess.
     
  17. Bobi

    Bobi New Member

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    Saturday
    I really would love to have your opinion about my Bobi's numbers. Because when my vet returns from vacations I'm going to tallk with her.
    Do you think I should increase the dose? Reduce?
    I'm trying so hard to keep him from dry food - I'm sure he doesn't eat the others dry food because I have the microchip feeder. And the one that I only have for him I put wet and a tiny bit (less than a tbs) of dry just to stop him for begging.

    Thank you in advance for all your answers. I don't know if this is the correct way but I'm going to tag some of you like someone did before.

    @Djamila

    @Rachel

    @MrWorfMen's Mom
     
  18. Bobi

    Bobi New Member

    Joined:
    Saturday
    Ok he was PMPS 151 so I decided not to give him any insuline :(.

    I hope someone can see my latest posts and help me decide what to do in the morning... :nailbiting:
     
  19. Sharon14

    Sharon14 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2015
    Nice blues today! Sometimes tags don’t go through for some reason. I’ll tag @MrWorfMen's Mom again for you
     
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  20. MrWorfMen's Mom

    MrWorfMen's Mom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2015
    Loving those blues. Not sure but it looks like Bobi is either bouncing or getting a significant temporary food bump from the dry food and then dropping back into his "normal" BG range fairly quickly or it could be a combination of both. The fact that he is so low at the end of the cycle and has had some late nadirs make me seriously wonder if what you are seeing has anything to do with when he is consuming the dry food. Is the dry food being given for free feeding or is it being fed with meals around mealtime or as specific timed snacks? I'm not sure what to tell you right now so let's look at the food situation and see if we can figure out what might be going on.
     
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  21. Bobi

    Bobi New Member

    Joined:
    Saturday
    Hi all thanks for your answers. It's not being easy this days that I'm trying to keep him from dry - his numbers are driving me crazy

    The only time that he eat dry food today (a tbs) was right after I tested him at +7. But he ate several times wet food something like a half can (40g) with water in each time.
    As he is always wanting food I still don't have any fixed schedule - I gave him wet when he asks but always take food out 2 hours before shot time.

    During the night I leave him a bit of dry (diabetic farmina) otherwise he meows all night.
    If I put wet when we are going to sleep he eats it right after I put it...

    Should I stay with the 3.4 tomorrow morning?

    @MrWorfMen's Mom
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2019 at 5:46 PM
  22. MrWorfMen's Mom

    MrWorfMen's Mom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2015
    None of Bobi's BG readings have been going too low but the lows are occurring late in the cycle which could indicate the dose is a bit too high. As long as AMPS is 200 or more, then perhaps try backing down to 3.2u of insulin and see if that evens Bobi out at all. Ideally you want to be able to shoot twice daily with the same dose so right now it's a matter of trying a little reduction and see what Bobi does.
    Don't know where you are located but if Nature Variety Ultimate Protein is available to you, it's a little lower in carbs (14%) than the Farmina. I know how frustrating it is to have a kibble addicted kitty. Mine took over 2 years post diagnosis to even touch wet food so kudos to you for getting Bobi to eat wet food and for keeping the dry food to a minimum!
     
  23. Bobi

    Bobi New Member

    Joined:
    Saturday
    Thanks for your words and I followed your advice and gave him 3.2 U.
    Sorry I thought that in my first post I had wrote it - I'm portuguese.
    Giving him wet it's not a problem because he loves it - the problem is that he also wants the dry... :banghead: has we say here he is a good fork ;)

    Here in Portugal we only have the Nature variety - True Instinct Original
    https://www.zooplus.pt/shop/gato/racao_gato/true_instinct/high_meat/670790

    I think that the most high meat that we have is Orijen

    :kiss:
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2019 at 4:39 AM
  24. JanetNJ

    JanetNJ Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2016
    How much wet food are you giving him per day? Maybe he needs a little more of he's begging for dry. I would cut him off from the dry and find a different treat. I have freeze dried chicken that my cat loves. It might satisfy his desire for something dry and crunchy. Not sure what is available by you.

    Keep in mind that grain free is not low carb. Instead of rice they put in peas and potatoes. It's still carbs.

    Is Epigen 90 cat food available there? That food is about 8%

    I would also try to eventually push the numbers to just below 100. Those healing dark green numbers. Since you are using a human meter, he's not too low until he's under 50.

    You are doing a wonderful job! It is a marathon. I didn't even see a number under 300 for over 2 months in the beginning.
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2019 at 4:34 AM
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  25. JanetNJ

    JanetNJ Well-Known Member

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    Jun 8, 2016
    How much does he weigh? How many calories of wet food are you feeding each day?
     
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  26. Bobi

    Bobi New Member

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    Saturday
    Hi Janet

    He weights 7,7 kg he is not fat he is just a very big cat.
    In fact I can not tell you how many calories he eats a day.
    But it eats at most 4 cans of wet food of 85 or 100 g (gourmet chicken pate, yarrah, animonda, sheba fine flakes jelly, etc ...) all of them low carb and at most 3 tablespoons of Farmina Diabetic dry.

    Yes I also use freeze dried chicken treats.
    We don't have Epigen 90. Yeap I know that the grain free food is not conpleatly out of bad things

    Is there any chart of dry food here at the forum?
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2019 at 5:11 AM
  27. MrWorfMen's Mom

    MrWorfMen's Mom Well-Known Member

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    Feb 18, 2015
    Your Instinct Original guaranteed ingredients aren't identical to ours in North America but are very close so it may run around 15% and might be slightly lower than the Farmina. Orijen here in Canada and the US is about 17% carbs if memory serves. Unfortunately, because dry food isn't optimal for our diabetics, there is no listing of the carb values. Those of us with kibble addicted kitties have accumulated some info on our own by writing to the manufacturers for "as fed" values for protein, fat, fibre, moisture and ash and then calculated the carbs ourselves.
     
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  28. Bobi

    Bobi New Member

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    I understand you.
    Maybe I can write to Nature varieties and ask for those data to the food available here in PT.
     
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  29. JanetNJ

    JanetNJ Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2016
    At that weight he will need about 340 calories to maintain his weight. Sometimes diabetics need extra calories because they can not properly utilize the nutrients in the food. How many calories are in the cans? It should say on the lake. Try feeding a can morning, mid day, dinnertime and before bed.

    https://www.youngagainpetfood.com/assets/cat-food-comparison-chart.pdf
     
  30. Bobi

    Bobi New Member

    Joined:
    Saturday
    Thank you so much.
    This Nature Variaties Instinct on your chart is the Ultimate Protein correct?

    I'm gonna study all this things about calories and so on.

    Because I always read the labels of all my cats food - but I simple do that stuff withdraw the other components to 100% to have the Carbos
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2019 at 8:23 AM
  31. MrWorfMen's Mom

    MrWorfMen's Mom Well-Known Member

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    Feb 18, 2015
    No the one being compared on the chart Janet linked seems to be the Instinct Original. The Ultimate Protein has no fish meal in the ingredients and is slightly lower in carbs.
     
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  32. Bobi

    Bobi New Member

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    Saturday
    So this Instinct could be a "not so bad" choice for my boy since it is 8.47% until I wean him completly
     
  33. MrWorfMen's Mom

    MrWorfMen's Mom Well-Known Member

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    Feb 18, 2015
    I thought the Instinct Original was 15% (reported since 2015) and if memory serves, that figure came from the Nature Variety folks directly. I am not sure how the Young Again folks calculated to come up with 8.47% when they say the fibre and ash content were not available and that chart is from 2011. If I had to choose between the Instinct brands available, I'd pick the Ultimate Protein (your High Meat version) over the original even if the carb level is only 1 or 2% different.....it's still lower and therefore closer to appropriate for a sugar cat. Every bit helps when carbs are that high. Of course it also will depend on what Bobi thinks of the food! :rolleyes:
     
  34. Bobi

    Bobi New Member

    Joined:
    Saturday
    I'm gonna give it a try (at least until i wean him from dry completly) - I think that I have a store near me that sells it

    I was looking at the chart (2011) given by Janet and numbers are a little diferent:
    https://www.youngagainpetfood.com/zero-formula.html
    https://www.instinctpetfood.com/cat...e-protein-grain-free-cage-free-chicken-recipe
    https://www.instinctpetfood.com/cat...e-protein-grain-free-cage-free-chicken-recipe

    It's normal that brand change their formulas :mad:

    Gonna try to make a kind of chart like the one given by Janet for Farmina and the Nature Variety that is sold here in Portugal.
    Because for example that Farmina formula is not the same in Portugal and Brazil. Kind of stupid thing...

    Btw Bobi's numbers today are so "sad" but I supose is because that I didn't gave him insuline last night and today I reduce it - I think that he needs to
    stabilize again isn't it?
     
  35. MrWorfMen's Mom

    MrWorfMen's Mom Well-Known Member

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    Feb 18, 2015
    It's quite possible he doesn't need the reduction but only a few cycles of trial will determine that. Skipping last night would definitely have had some impact on the AMPS but he may also be bouncing from those lower numbers yesterday and that you just have to be patient and let it clear.
    It would also be really helpful if you can grab a test before bed at night. Kitties often go lower at night and without any testing half the picture is missing. Filling in a some info at night, gives you more information to make informed dosing decisions on. :)
     
  36. Bobi

    Bobi New Member

    Joined:
    Saturday
    I will do it tonight.
    Our PMPS is at 22 h (10 PM) so do you think that I should do at what hours?
     
  37. MrWorfMen's Mom

    MrWorfMen's Mom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2015
    What time do you go to bed? What time do you get up in the morning? If you can grab at least a +2 or +3 during the night cycle sometimes or first thing when you get up in the morning which might be late in the night cycle, it helps fills in some data. Also, if you happen to get up to use the washroom during the night, grab a test then. The idea is to slot in a test when you can without needing to stay up till all hours. Perhaps shifting the shot time to 9am/9pm would make it easier to get a +2 or +3 before bed. That test can be particularly useful as it often tells you whether kitty is going to have a more active cycle and then you can leave more food out to keep them safe through the night so you can rest. Work it around your schedule and do what you can.
     
  38. Bobi

    Bobi New Member

    Joined:
    Saturday
    Usually I go to bed around 1 AM so I can do +2 or +3 and I get up at 9 in the morning so +11. But I don't mind to put the alarm sometimes to test him during the night if that it's necessary ;-) I have a very light sleep so I wake up easily and I usually sleep a little more in the morning.

    My poor boy is going to hate me because I'm pricking him so many times...

    But tell me - when I decided to change the hour - I do it at once or gradually?

    Many thanks <3 for being patients with me and all my questions
     

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