New treat: Need help with the label

Discussion in 'Feline Health - (The Main Forum)' started by Traci and Boomer, Jan 1, 2010.

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  1. Traci and Boomer

    Traci and Boomer Well-Known Member

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    Hello Feline Label Helpers :lol:

    I thought I made 2 really good treat choices for Boomer yesterday. After feeding him one of them I tested and his BG was higher than its been in WEEKS! Ugh. I'm thinking I messed up.

    Heres the info: (this is the one I think was HC)
    Wellness Pure Rewards for Dogs Turkey Jerky
    (grain free- that's what got me)
    Ingredients: Turkey, Dried chicory root, cultured whey, sea salt, lecithin, mixed tocopherols.

    Second treat-I didn't give him as many of these. These may be OK, but I want to check.
    Evo Wild Cravings (turkey and chicken) for cats
    "grain free, ultra low carbs, protein rich"
    Crude protien 48%
    The ingredients list is so long that I don't want to attempt to type it. I figure this treat may be known better. I know Evo was one of the brands that was considered good for diabetics on this board.

    What do you think?
     
  2. Spacey & Ella

    Spacey & Ella Member

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    Dec 28, 2009
    I cant calculate that stuff, cause I couldn't find the numbers (how much protein, fat, fibre, moisture, raw ashes etc).
    Sorry.
    What I do know is that even there is no grain in food, carb still can be high. I bought something with only fish in it, and still the percentage of carb was higher then 20%!
    So... I guess when you give me the numbers, I can calculate it for you.
    I also made a spreadsheet in Excel where you only have to enter the numbers and it spits out the carb percentage...
    Let me know if your interested...
     
  3. Nicole & Baby

    Nicole & Baby Well-Known Member

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    Mier..wow...if you can share that spreadsheet with me..I would be soooooo thankful!! :D
     
  4. Traci and Boomer

    Traci and Boomer Well-Known Member

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    Hi! Thanks for the offer to help Mier. I didn't realize that carbs could be calculated without calling the company or whatever.

    Here the info...
    Wellness treats:
    Protein not less than 28%
    Fat not less than 18%
    Fiber not more than 2%
    Moisture not more than 20%

    Evo Wild Cravings:
    Protein minimum: 48%
    Fat (min) 22%
    Fiber (max) 2%
    Moisture max 10%
    Carbohydrates max 9%
     
  5. Hillary & Maui (GA)

    Hillary & Maui (GA) Well-Known Member

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    Here are the evo ingredients:

    Turkey, Chicken Meal, Chicken, Herring Meal, Chicken Fat (Preserved with Mixed Tocopherols, a Natural Source of Vitamin E), Peas, Eggs, Turkey Meal, Pea Fiber, Natural Flavors, Apples, Carrots, Cranberries, Herring Oil, Tomatoes, Pumpkin, Dried Chicory Root, Cottage Cheese, Alfalfa Sprouts, Taurine, DL-Methionine, Minerals (Zinc Proteinate, Iron Proteinate, Copper Proteinate, Manganese Proteinate, Calcium Iodate), Vitamins (Vitamin E Supplement, Betaine Hydrochloride, Niacin Supplement, Vitamin A Supplement, Calcium Pantothenate, Thiamine Mononitrate, Riboflavin Supplement, Beta Carotene, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Biotin, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Folic Acid), Direct Fed Microbials (Dried Lactobacillus acidophilus Fermentation Product, Dried Lactobacillus casei Fermentation Product, Dried Enterococcus faecium Fermentation Product)

    I highlighted the questionable ingredients due to carbs and/or sugar. While overall the ingredient list is ok (I question the "meals" and what that really includes), it's the other items in red that could cause BG's to rise.

    The other product, from what you provided looks ok from an ingredient viewpoint.
     
  6. Traci and Boomer

    Traci and Boomer Well-Known Member

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    Hi Hillary-
    Thank you. Funny, it's the other treat that caused the rise in BG. I thought the evo treat was better. We'll see what Mier comes up with from her excel formula.

    PS-I miss the other pictures of Maui eating her food, :lol:
     
  7. Larry and Kitties

    Larry and Kitties Well-Known Member

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    Dec 28, 2009
    The only real questionable ingredient is peas. Pea fiber is fiber, not carbs. The apples, carrots, cranberries and pumpkin are way down on the list (after natural flavors) to be an insignificant.
     
  8. Spacey & Ella

    Spacey & Ella Member

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    http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key= ... utput=html

    If you want to,....

    Keep in mind that it is based on cans that are available in the Netherlands. So it doesn't calculate phosphorus or so...

    The treats give these numbers:
    Protein Fat Carb
    27.9% 40.3% 31.8%

    The other:
    Protein Fat Carb
    41.6% 42.9% 15.6%

    Also: the calculating is based upon Guaranteed Analysis.
    Is that what you have on your can??

    Pffff.... all those differences..
     
  9. Nicole & Baby

    Nicole & Baby Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the spreadsheet....now I can spend hours on something new LOL :D
    Anyway...yes, my cans here have Guaranteed Analysis - I am in USA.
    I do appreicate you sharing.

    **I do notice that your spreadsheet has "Raw" Portein, etc. My cans say "Crude" is that the same thing? Probably a stupid question - but I don't know & want to ask :?:
     
  10. Traci and Boomer

    Traci and Boomer Well-Known Member

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    Dec 28, 2009
    Yes, the info I gave you from the label is the "guaranteed analysis".
    It seems that the Wellness treats are a "no go" and the Evo are still too high carb too, but better.

    I'm wondering if I keep the Evo treats and feed them sparingly after a test - like 3 treats or something like that.

    Ella- I've been reading your posts about food with Jill. You are trying so hard - that's great. It can be very overwhelming and frustrating! Looks like I feed too much seafood myself and I'll have to cut back. Luckily I don't think Boomer is a seafood addict,but it's been hard cutting off the HC treats and trying to find new treats that are low carb that he'll EAT!!!! :x
     
  11. Hillary & Maui (GA)

    Hillary & Maui (GA) Well-Known Member

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    Dec 28, 2009

    Thought since it's a new board, new year and all that Maui was entitled to a dignified picture. Of course, the other pic may turn up -- maybe in the sig section, I have to still figure that out a bit.....:)
     
  12. Spacey & Ella

    Spacey & Ella Member

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    We are here to help each other after all. ;)
    And yeah... raw = crude.
    Good luck! :D
     
  13. Spacey & Ella

    Spacey & Ella Member

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    Dec 28, 2009
    Hi Traci,
    I have some treats that are high as well. Freeze dried chicken treats: 14,8% . I also keep them. You never know when the next 'almost hypo' comes around. And I don't give that much. So, I guess a bit is fine so now and then.
    I'm not sure myself what to replace all the fish food with. A lot of try and throw away and try again and so on I guess...
    Maybe make a punch with egg yolk. Whaaaa.... well, we will find something I hope.
    Or we have to buy a dehydrator and make our own snack. Cut a peace of a cow on the way to work or whatever...
     
  14. Traci and Boomer

    Traci and Boomer Well-Known Member

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    Dec 28, 2009
    Hi Ella-

    Are you Dutch or from somewhere else...your English is great. It's got to be hard to be in a different country than most of the other people here - when we talk about products mostly from the US or Canada. My brother lived in Paris for a year and when I visited everything was outrageously expensive and so different. How is it where you live?
     
  15. Spacey & Ella

    Spacey & Ella Member

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    Dec 28, 2009
    Hi Traci,

    To make a long story short: I was born and raised in the former GDR (Germand Democratic Republic, the country that doesn't exist anymore) and came to the Netherlands in June 1991, two years after the fall of the wall. So... I'm always everywhere a stranger/foreigner. I'm used to it :D
    Amsterdam is expensive. Yes. And the flats here are soooo small. Unbelievable. First I lived in The Hague. There my husband and I had 95 m2 with a tiny garden. The cat's loved it. I think in America that would still be very tiny?
    Now, in Amsterdam, we have a flat of 55 m2, including a very very tiny balcony. Still, we pay Eur 1200,00 mortgage (which is a lot here for this few m2). Somewhere in the south of Holland I would have an entire house for that money.
    I don't even have a kitchen, just a corner in the living room where we can cook. We live in 2 rooms with 2 people and 2 cats. ;)
    And the vet visits.... Well. Spacey was diagnosed Nov, 11th 2009 and we've paid somewhat around Eur 1500,00 already. That includes 3 days in a clinic due to an emergency.
    Is that a lot? I don't know. Would it be lesser in the States?

    I was saving money for a new second hand car, that went all to the vets. We do have to prioritize, and in that situation my kitty comes above all. :D
     
  16. squeem3

    squeem3 Well-Known Member

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    Dec 28, 2009
    1500 EU is about $2,155.95 US, which is not uncommon for an ER visit/stay and treatment. Does your vet offer payment plans or other financial assistance? Many US vet hospitals do.
     
  17. Nicole & Baby

    Nicole & Baby Well-Known Member

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    Dec 28, 2009
    Mier2006, I have been under the impression freeze dried chicken treats are good as snacks, which brand do you have that are carb/high?
     
  18. Carolyn and Spot

    Carolyn and Spot Well-Known Member

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    Dec 28, 2009
    Ok I see lots of confusion on this thread :D

    First, we never trust the Guaranteed Analysis as it doesn't measure anything worthwhile, in particular not with cats, so disregard it entirely with both treats and food. So here are some things I can quickly respond to:

    1. Beef is a known allergen to cats. That doesn't mean YOUR cat will be allergic, it just means why risk it? So.. no dehydrated beef.
    2. Freeze dried anything* (with ingredients listed as meat only) is absolutely safe and LOW CARB. Do NOT use these treats to intervene with a rapidly dropping number.
    3. *Do not feed freeze-dried liver.
    4. Read the ingredients. That's how we know what to treat our cats with. The only commercial pet food company "Cat" treat I have used is Wellness.. not sure what the chicory root is for, but it does not apparently raise BGs. I find them expensive though, so I go to freeze dried chicken more often than not.

    You want to avoid anything at all that has oat, wheat, rice, flours, starches or vegetables. EVO should be crossed off your list.

    Hope this helps! :)
     
  19. squeem3

    squeem3 Well-Known Member

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    Wellness does make cat treats: http://www.wellnesspetfood.com/cat_well ... ights.html But whether or not they are ok to give to a diabetic cat is questionable. Some cats may be able to eat them, others may have a spike in bgs.

    You can usually find some good low carb treats in the cat treat aisle. If not, check the dog treat aisle as some brands of freeze dried meat treats are also good for cats to have. Online stores such as PetFoodDirect.com and OnlyNaturalPet.com have good low carb treats. If in doubt, ask on FDMB before you buy it :)

    Carolyn, why no freeze dried liver as treat? Not even an occasional one or two pieces?
     
  20. Nicole & Baby

    Nicole & Baby Well-Known Member

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  21. Carolyn and Spot

    Carolyn and Spot Well-Known Member

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    They are great. Chicken as the only ingredient, can't be beat. I have used them successfully for at least 4 months now. :)
     
  22. Nicole & Baby

    Nicole & Baby Well-Known Member

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    Dec 28, 2009
    *sigh* of relief! Thanks, Carolyn.......have a fabulous weekend :D
     
  23. Carolyn and Spot

    Carolyn and Spot Well-Known Member

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    Ah I meant to add the word BEEF to my no freeze dried liver comment, due to my earlier statement about beef being a possible allergen. Sorry! LOL
     
  24. Spacey & Ella

    Spacey & Ella Member

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    Dec 28, 2009
    I am still using GA to do the math. Those are the only numbers on the can (in the Netherlands).

    1. Beef, fish... there is not a lot left this way that they can eat.
    I really don't get the beef. What else is there to eat in the wild. Okay.. the smaller ones eat also birds and rodents. But... I see lions hunt beefy things.
    Confused again.
    2. I do have freeze-dried stuff that's higher than 10% on carb. But heeee... maybe it is indigenous to the Netherlands. :lol:
    3. Why not?
     
  25. Spacey & Ella

    Spacey & Ella Member

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    Dec 28, 2009
    Well, then Amsterdam is not more expensive. Nice to know. :D
    We do have several Insurance companies that offer health insurance for cats. That all became available only a couple of years ago. My cat was already too old for a reasonable insurance and, honestly, there are so many restrictions that I never got any.

    But it's okay.
     
  26. Spacey & Ella

    Spacey & Ella Member

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    Dec 28, 2009
    I have PetPlus. But, again, it's possible it's a treat that's not available in the US.
     
  27. Lisa dvm

    Lisa dvm Member

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    Dec 28, 2009
    I can see where this can get very confusing!!

    Carolyn is right in that beef is one of the more common allegens in the cat but I would take this off of your list of worries given your limitation in choices for your area.

    If I had to pick one - I would pick beef to feed over fish. Fish seems to be even more commonly hyperallergenic than beef. Plus, fish has its other issues as discussed on another thread....(addiction, heavy metals, and PBDEs/possible link with Hyperthyroidism, higher in phos, etc.)

    Small cats, in the wild, tend to eat mice and birds....crickets and lizards.....not as much beef. That said, if your cat has no GI problems with beef, then take that off your worry list.

    We all have to pick our battles when it comes to feeding our cats and we really are not trying to make you crazy! :D
     
  28. Carolyn and Spot

    Carolyn and Spot Well-Known Member

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    That's what I'm trying to say.. you don't have to do math so much as you should just try to avoid certain ingredients. :) Less brain strain LOL

    You have to remember that the GA is reporting what percent carbohydrates are in the food, but NOT how many calories are derived from the carbs in the ingredients. It says there's 10% carbohydrates in the bag.. but that does not mean your cat is getting 10% of the calories consumed from carbohydrates. If there is no ingredient aside from meat in the product, you would in fact be feeding a very low carb snack for your cats.

    I personally try to stick with chicken or turkey. I know that's a good all-around, high protein, "safe" food and snack. I always warn about beef because my cats consistently vomit it... particularly the beef liver treats, and knowing it's an allergen, I try not to let people spend money on it and then wonder why their cats are having digestive upsets. :) It was like a synchronized Barf Ballet the day I tried them, with all 3 cats throwing up for an hour afterwards. :eek:

    Now, understanding you are in the Netherlands, like Dr. Lisa said, you must choose based on what you have available.. and if beef or fish is what you've got, then you've got to go with that. In order to weed through the info that will make you crazy, try to pick foods and treats that do not have ingredients such as:

    1. Wheat, oat, rice or any other grain or any variation of it such as "wheat gluten", "rice flour", "rice starch" etc - those are the biggest problems. They are filler material and you will almost always find some form of grain or multiple forms of grain, listed on any commercial dry treat for cats.

    2. Avoid vegetables. Pet food companies have recently decided that sweet potatoes, carrots, peas and blueberries (to name a few) are delightful things to put in cat treats. Apparently they have studied wild cats eating these vegetables and fruits LOL Avoid them, they will not only mess with bg's, but can interfere with the digestive tract.

    If you can not find any treats that are meat-only, you can make your own by boiling chicken or turkey breast and dicing it up. You can also use bonito flakes, which are found in Asian groceries (don't know if you have those in the netherlands). Basically bonito flakes are dehydrated fish flakes, which are used as a soup base.

    Bottom line: don't drive yourself insane with the GA's. Just look at the ingredients. If there's a plant product in there, it's automatically suspect. If you think it looks good, feed it to your cat. If you see bg interference, stop giving the treat and try another one.

    I'm sorry I confused you, I was actually trying to make it less stressful, not more stressful! :)
     
  29. Lisa dvm

    Lisa dvm Member

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    Have you reviewed my Commercial Canned Food page where I discuss both ingredients and composition?

    And....honestly.....Janet and I discussed taking the section out of that page that discusses using GA values but we both decided to leave it in.

    However, please see the example that I outline using Wellness' fat content as an example of just how worthless GA values can be. Using any value that is listed as a "minimum" or "maximum"....has no floor or ceiling and can, therefore, lead you down a very inaccurate path.
     
  30. Lisa dvm

    Lisa dvm Member

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    PS......please do try to make this simple and read what Carolyn wrote.

    Look at the ingredients and watch how the food affects that bgs.

    And...review my Commercial Canned Food page for a better understanding of this issue.
     
  31. Spacey & Ella

    Spacey & Ella Member

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    Dec 28, 2009
    It's not the area. It's my cats... :(
    They are very picky. I was so very happy to see them both chew on peace of beef. I thought I found something that could stay on the list of options.

    I will gladly do that. ;)
    But, of course, knowing that it isn't really good, I will try and find something else.


    Ah, well, now you tell me. :lol:
     
  32. Spacey & Ella

    Spacey & Ella Member

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    I've made a sheet for that, based on the cat nutrition info website. Basically, I did a lot of work for nothing :lol:

    Now that's very interesting and good to know!

    Thank God my cat's don't have that. I can understand why you warn people.


    Tuna with apple. My cat's loved it. I'm not surprised anymore.

    They don't like boiled chicken. I tried this today without any luck. But I will keep Bonito flakes in mind. We have plenty Asian groceries in Amsterdam.
    I found some treats today, which are all meat. Of course it's beef... whaaaaa

    Lady, you have stressed me out big time. :lol:
    No, of course not, I'm doing it myself.
    Thanks for your explanation.
     
  33. Lisa dvm

    Lisa dvm Member

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    But beef may be perfectly fine for YOUR cats!

    Many cats do just fine with beef.
     
  34. Spacey & Ella

    Spacey & Ella Member

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    Dec 28, 2009
    I did read the site/page. But obviously, I didn't understand it. I'm blond. All those math things made me decide to set up a spreadsheet that does all the calculating for me. And now it's basically useless. :lol:
    On the other hand, things here are not mentioned as minimum or maximum but as, well, numbers.

    But, you know, I've decided to stop making myself crazy. Spacey has eaten crappy food since 16 years. A couple of day's (weeks ?) longer wont make such a big difference. I ordered those nutritional supplements people mentioned earlier (from Feline Future I believe it was?) and now I'm waiting patiently to get it. And then I'm able to make balanced (as you pointed out) raw meat. So, it's just a matter of (a short) time and then I'm relieved from reading and interpreting labels. :)
     
  35. Carolyn and Spot

    Carolyn and Spot Well-Known Member

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    For you and Spacey, Beef is just fine! :)

    Hey you found a treat that is only meat, you're done searching and reading and calculating now! It's ok that it's beef, because your cats are not getting tummy problems. You can stop your search now, your treat discovery will be perfectly good! LOL (((hugs))) You are funny, glad to meet you :)
     
  36. Spacey & Ella

    Spacey & Ella Member

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    Dec 28, 2009
    They can't develop an allergy?

    Btw, somewhere you mentioned feathers and long ears. What about wild animals?
    Pheasant, wild duck, quail, pigeons are all fine I guess. And others like wild boar, deer?
    I bought some wild boar today and Chewie seemed to like it very much. But are they also okay to feed? I can't remember ever seeing a wild cat go after a boar. :?
     
  37. Traci and Boomer

    Traci and Boomer Well-Known Member

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    Wow - now we have more crazy smiles. I think this one goes with this thread :-c
    I still don't know if the treats I originally listed are good or bad. :lol:

    Ella, I enjoyed reading your life history information. I still can't believe what great English you have being German! Amazing. I've been to Germany too on vacation as it's one of my BF's favorite places. We drove all over the country. Saw a former concentration camp, some castles. Stayed at a cool hotel that allowed dogs in the restaurant and bar. Very funny. I thought the German people were very nice and lucky for us a lot of them knew English. I don't know a word of German but BF likes to try.

    Do you have a pictures of your cats?
     
  38. Janet & Binky (GA)

    Janet & Binky (GA) Senior Member Staff Member Moderator

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    Dec 28, 2009
    Not at all -- now you understand it better than you did. There's nothing like solving a math problem on your own to enhance your appreciation of it.

    I'm under the impression that in much of Europe, the numbers on the cat food labels are in fact average values rather than the "guaranteed" minimum or maximum values. If that's the case, you can use those numbers as they are.

    In the USA, we have the disadvantage that companies apparently have no legal obligation to tell us the actual nutrient composition of the food, and in fact can give numbers that have only passing resemblance to reality. Even something wholesome-sounding like "chicken" and "beef" can turn out to have 70% of calories from fat once you press for details. (And don't get me started on what we're just finding out about how ground beef for *human* consumption has been altered in the past few years -- but I assure you it's highly disgusting.)

    As for beef, unless running around like a fool randomly attacking things is an allergic reaction, we don't have a problem with it in this household either.

    -- Janet
     
  39. Spacey & Ella

    Spacey & Ella Member

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    I'm so sorry Traci. I kind a hijacked the whole thread. :YMSIGH:
    But as I understand things now:
    - If there is any other thing than meat in it: DON'T give it.
    - Just meat as ingredient: it's a GO.

    Lol... I learned English by watching a lot of Woody Allen films. My husband was so frustrated.. every other 2 sentences he had to stop the video and translate for me. :lol:
    In Germany everything get's translated. In the Netherlands subtitles are used. That's so much better! Anyway...
    Where have you been, East or West? Still a huge difference! Oh.. and your BF can always write me in German if he want's to learn. ;-)
    As of now I have two doc's with pictures of my cats. The link is in the signature.
     
  40. Spacey & Ella

    Spacey & Ella Member

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    Oh g... that explains a lot.
     
  41. Traci and Boomer

    Traci and Boomer Well-Known Member

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    Dec 28, 2009
    Hi Ella-

    Okay....I just looked at a German map because I couldn't remember all the places we visited in Germany. :oops: We stayed with his friend for a few days near the US Air Force base near Ramstein, as Dave knew him from work - he's in the Air Force too. From there we rented a car and drove to the Bavarian Alps to see the Neuschwanstein castle and a few others. We stayed at a very cute place (the one that let dogs in) called the Riessersee Hotel in Garmisch. Then we went to Munich and went to the concentration camp in Dachau. I really liked Garmisch- it was a cute little town (we went in the summer and it was actually quite warm) and everyone was very nice. After Germany we went on to Paris because my brother and sister in law were living there last year so we had a free place to stay. It was a fun vacation.

    I looked at your new photos. Your cats are very cute! And funny names too. Oh, and I FINALLY found freeze dried chicken treats for dogs. They were pretty expensive and Boomer isn't too thrilled. He'll eat them, but definitely likes his HC treat more.
     
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