Newbie....waiting to hear

Hi All,

Really glad I found this forum.

My 15 year old male cat Lamont started drinking/peeing more about a month ago. He also lost a little hair (near his spine and shoulder blades) and lost a little weight (not a huge amount--he was about a pound or so overweight to begin with). Took him to the vet and his glucose is high. She's doing another test and will find out tomorrow whether or not it's diabetes. Also, he has the very minor beginnings of kidney disease.

So, a few things:

1) I live in a teeny tiny apt with brutally hot heat that I can't adjust. This year, it's been worse (mostly because it's not super cold out). I finally got my super to help open one of the window (which had been stuck) so it's cooler in here. Since then, Lamont isn't drinking/peeing more. In the past week, he gained the weight back and is at pretty normal weight. His hair looks like it's growing in.

2) Lamont refused to eat wet food or raw food period (he ate Science Diet Hairball dry and greenies for most of his life--I switched to Blue Buffalo Mature Healthy a week ago which he loves) No matter how hard I tried, he wouldn't touch any canned food or raw or cooked chicken. Finally, yesterday, after my talk with the vet I was absolutely determined to get him to eat canned food at least for starters. Because he seemed to love the Blue Buffalo dry I tried the wet (the one for mature cats) and, unbelievably, he did and seemed to love it. I mixed it in with a little of his dry food (til he gets used to it). This morning, he's not as enthusiastic. He rushed in the kitchen to eat breakfast, saw it was the (mostly) wet food and started grousing. Yes, this will be a challenge.

3) Whether he's diagnosed with diabetes or not, I'm determined to have Lamont eat better. The vet said because of his age/kidney situation, he can't have a diet that's super high in protein (or in carbs!)

Any tips from people to help transition a formally dry food eating cat who's used to grazing 24/7 on dry food to (mostly) wet food eating one with specific meal times? Also, is it better to give him four small meals a day vs. two?

Finally, in the event Lamont is diagnosed with diabetes, I thought it would be a good idea to wait a few weeks before starting insulin so he can get completely transitioned over to a lower carb diet (the mostly wet food one). Then redo his glucose test so he's not given too much insulin (my cousin is type 1 diabetic so I know a little about it). I'm concerned about hypoglycemia. Does this sound like a good idea?

Any help/suggestions are appreciated. Thanks!

 

I am newbie also !!
I am also trying to wean cat off dry, I just cutting back on portion alittle daily and slowly increasing wet.. I have two cats
was only giving them 1/2 can each, now will do two cans and very little dry

I found this wet food called Tiki on amazon, they seem to LOVE hate Vet DM script food, they seem also to eat Friskies Classic also good for them..
my cat has high glucose just discovered 11/28, we are trying one month on new diet before needed to go the shot route which will be terrible
Best of luck to us all

 

Hi!
Thanks for the tip! I saw Tiki in the pet store--it looked healthy. If I can't get Lamont to continue with Blue Buffalo I'll definitely try it. FYI, after Lamont gobbled up the Blue Buffalo wet yesterday I called Blue Buffalo to find out what the carb ratio is and for a 5.5 oz can, it's 4.9. I would suggest calling Tiki to find out what the carb ratio is .

I'm hoping to ultimately get Lamont to either 1) do 2 cans of 5.5 oz wet and maybe mix in a little freeze dried chicken (I'm concerned about giving too much protein) or doing 1 can of 5.5 oz mixed in with about an 1/8 of a cup of dry (to help with dental plaque--he won't let me brush his teeth).

I think one month on the new diet is a good plan. Best of luck to you!!!

PS--are you thinking about home-testing? How old is your cat (the one with high glucose?) It's funny after finding this out yesterday I starting reading all of this stuff and was just shocked at how unhealthy dry food is (I never knew that--everyone from vets to pet store people told me not to sweat it if he wouldn't eat wet food and it was better for his teeth.)
PPS-I bought Lamont a remote controlled mouse to get and get him more active (since he's older it's harder to engage him in play).

 

Welcome to the board!
I am sure you'd have lots of suggestions shortly but here are my two pence
It is important to transition Lamont to the wet food and cats do adjust from whole day grazing on dry kibble to more or less set times for their meals of canned stuff. Bailey has diabetes and kidney disease (pretty advanced) and if it comes to choosing it is more important for a cat to eat then to eat just the right food. Bailey would be awfully hungry but would not eat prescription kidney food save for a few licks. Try still few other varieties of canned food, check out the food tables on this site to see what is a good balance between carbs and protein for diabetes/kidney and you can also sprinkle some yummy stuff (I do Bonito flakes or Tuna flakes) on top of wet food to entice Lamont to eat. In my experience four smaller meals a day is better than two bigger ones (Lamont would also probably more inclined to eat small meal of wet food rather than big meal of wet food at a time). If there is a kidney issue, sub-q fluids can help a lot with keeping some load off of kidneys in terms of toxins in the system. Also, high blood sugar might be due to infection of some sort.

Keep us posted. Good luck!

 

Thanks so much for the suggestions, Kot! I actually just googled Tiki, the brand Mrs. Batch mentioned and it has zero carbs which is impressive!

Lamont normally drinks a lot (he's addicted to drinking out of the bathroom faucet and loves it). Question: for an older cat, one that has the beginning of kidney disease, do you think it's dangerous to do too much protein?

I'm glad you think the four smaller meals per day is better--I thought, based on my cousin's experience w/type 1 diabetes--it's better to have a more or less constant small flow of food going in vs two big spikes.

Thanks again for your advice and best of luck to Bailey!

 

One other question, Kot: Do you think it's healthy to give freeze-dried chicken as a snack? Not a lot, just one piece a day? I'm concerned about Lamont's teeth and the dry helps with plaque. If he's ultimately off dry food, I've heard freeze-dried chicken can be a good alternative. But I am concerned about feeding him too much protein.

Thanks again!

 

Nature Variety canned is quite healthy AND low carb. A must for diabetic cats. It is expensive though.

 

Thanks, Woodsywife!

 

Unless your cat has late stage kidney disease, you don't want to feed a low protein diet. While some vets may still recommend them at early stages, this is a recommendation based on old research. Current research shows that low protein diets cause muscle wasting when fed long term and should not be used until late stage 3, stage 4 CKD, and that low phosphorus and quality protein sources are just as successful as an intervening diet in early stages. So what you're looking for with early stage kidney disease is something that is high quality protein, canned, less than 250 mg/100kcal of phosphorus, and less than 10% carbs. Luckily, there's quite a few foods out there that fit the bill! Check out this chart with the content of many foods listed by brand, and this one with the content listed in order of phosphorus content. Wellness, Weruva, and EVO are some brands you can try that have several canned foods that will fit your cat's needs.

I want to break down that statement a little so you know why these requirements are important ones to meet. If he is diabetic, feeding less than 10% carbs becomes very important because diabetic cats need less than 10% carbs in their diet for good blood glucose control. Second, feeding a low phosphorus, high quality protein (meaning the protein source is mostly muscle meat, not byproducts) will help the kidneys work more efficiently and hopefully stall the progression of the kidney disease. And finally, getting rid of all the dry food is very, very important for cats with kidney disease because they need to stay as hydrated as possible, and dry food has been proven to cause chronic dehydration, even if your cat drinks a lot from its water dish. I would also recommend mixing some extra water in with his meals, if he's not being too picky once you find a food he likes. Proper hydration is the most important step in managing kidney disease.

That said, you have to feed your cat what your cat will eat! So if he's being picky with foods, just keep feeding the best ones he will eat and continue to do your best to find one he likes that works (and this can be a long, patience-trying process). When Bandit had his last bout of pancreatitis, all he would eat for several weeks was Sheba pates and Purina DM. Not the best foods in the world, but not terrible when our goal is to just get him eating. Once his appetite returned and he was feeling better, I got him back on his regular diet.

There's a lot of great tips here on how to transition to canned food. Usually, the biggest and most important change that needs to be made is switching from free-feeding to regular feeding times. Cats have metabolisms that are twice as fast as people, so they do best with smaller, more frequent meals. If you can manage, feeding 4x a day or more is ideal. A lot of us have auto feeders that we use with frozen canned food while we're at work or for late feedings.

Another trick that might help is using Fortiflora with different canned foods to get him to eat them at first. Fortiflora is a kitty probiotic that not only helps regulate his GI system during food changes (and prevent GI upset), it also has the same flavorings they put in dry food to get cats to eat it. So, when you mix it in with canned food, it can serve the same purpose for cats addicted to dry food flavorings. 1 satchel a day is recommended, but you can split that satchel up into multiple meals.

Good luck! Bandit has a slew of issues now that he's nearly 14, including diabetes, chronic pancreatitis, myelofibrosis, and early stage kidney disease, but I'm lucky that he's not a picky eater (except with pancreatitis flares), so he's generally good with whatever I decide to feed him. It makes me long for the days when his diabetes was the only thing I worried about! But, he's managed very well on his diet for all his concurrent issuses and is doing great. We're finally med/insulin free again after his most recent bout of pancreatitis/myelofibrosis.

 

Just a couple more comments on this--if you can get him off the dry food completely, that would be best for his health. As I mentioned, dry food is chronically dehydrating and this is very bad for cats with kidney disease. You don't need to worry about feeding him too much protein at this point; that's only for cats with late stage kidney disease. At this stage, high protein is fine, as long as it's quality protein.

There is nothing about dry food that helps clean cats' teeth. This is a myth, and I have no idea where it started, because there's absolutely no evidence anywhere to support it. The only way to promote good dental health in cats is to brush their teeth (if they'll let you), and take them in for dental cleanings at the vet, as needed. This is exactly the same way humans maintain good dental health!

 

Thank you so much for that detailed response, Julia! I'm glad you're taking good care of Bandit and he's doing so well!

Lamont is a VERY picky eater. Blue Buffalo is the first brand (only brand actually) of wet food he'll eat (I've tried EVO, Wellness & Weruva many times with him --both wet and dry--and he won't touch them). Yesterday was the very first time he ate it so I was happy about that. The Blue Buffalo type I'm feeding him has 8% protein and 4.9% carbs. Right now, he's eating half canned, half dry and I'm hoping by the end of the week, he'll be totally transitioned off the dry.

I also stopped feeding him Greenies. What I'm thinking of doing is also giving him freeze dried chicken treats (the ones from Pure Bites who say there are no other ingredients--just the pure chicken or fish). I'm hoping that will also help, plus be good for his teeth.

Thanks again for all the info. After work, I'll definitely read all the links!!

So glad I found this board!

 

Thanks again, Julia. I did not know that about the dry food/teeth. He won't let me touch his teeth, I took him in for one dental cleaning years ago and it was really a horrible experience (he goes nuts at the vets).

I'm hoping to get him off the dry food completely by the end of the week. What do you think about giving freeze-dried chicken (or fish) as a snack?

 

Freeze dried treats make great snacks! I've used the Purebites before, but Bandit and Orpheus really prefer the Origen treats from our locally owned pet food store (there's a storefinder here), and the Nature's One (formerly Beefeaters) freeze dried salmon & chicken from Petsmart (in the cat treat section). But ANY freeze dried treat he likes a lot is good! Just check the ingredients--if it's 100% freeze dried meat, it's diabetic safe. I also use the Fancy Feast "purely" (formerly appetizers) as treats/snacks in between meals, and they are all diabetic safe.

Just a future tip in case you ever need to give pills--Greenies no longer makes diabetic safe pill pockets for cats, but they do for dogs, and they're the exact same thing as the old cat ones except they're bigger, so you can just break them up and use them. They're the Duck & Pea allergy formula.

Awesome!!!! Getting him completely transitioned to a canned food is step one, and then you can slowly try out tricks and other foods to get him on something more suitable for his diabetic and kidney needs.

What flavor Blue Buffalo is he eating? Switching him over to BB for now is great, but Blue Buffalo refuses to release it's typical nutrient analysis, so it's impossible to know how much phosphorus is in their foods. The diabetic safe varieties of BB are the "Wilderness" pates. The other BB flavors are not diabetic safe.

We use the "typical nutrient analysis" (that's on the charts I linked to earlier) rather the guaranteed analysis on the back of the cans, because the guaranteed analysis isn't an accurate representation of the content of the food because it's in minimums and maximums, and can vary a great deal. If a company won't release their typical nutrient analysis, usually that's a red flag to me because it means that it probably differs quite a bit from the guaranteed analysis printed on the cans/bags, or somehow refutes their advertising claims.

If you'd like, I have a low carb/ low phosphorus "cheat sheet" of foods somewhere that I used to take shopping with me; I'd be happy to share it!

 

All good to hear! Thanks! I'll try the Nature's One and see if he likes them.
Lamont's eating the Wilderness Mature. I'm going to call them to see what the phosphorous is.
I'm hoping (against hope!) that once he's just doing canned, I can switch him over to Evo--the Chicken/Turkey because it's also low in phosphorous. This is day two of canned food so I'm thinking it might make sense to do it sooner vs later.
I'd love to the see your low carb/low phosphorus cheat sheet! Thank you so much!!!

 

When my Gabby was towards the end of her life and extremely picky (she had stomach cancer), one food that was a HUGE hit with her and kept her eating long after she was refusing most other foods was BFF. I typically don't recommend it to start because it's fish based, but the phos levels are ok (not the best but under 250), it's low carb, and most cats seem to love it. You could also try mixing flavors he really likes with ones he's meh about. And I would also give the Fortiflora a shot...it's worked wonders with transitioning a lot of cats I know.

 

Thanks!. Lamont doesn't seem to like salmon or tuna but once he's totally on wet, I'm hoping to switch out and try other brands. And will give the Fortiflora a shot. Today he's not eating as much as he did yesterday, but he's still on his "grazing" pattern of eating (and tends to mostly eat late at night--yes, he's a midnight snacker ;-) ) Have you tried Tiki? It also looks good (but is very very pricey).

Also, in terms of amount of food: Lamont is about 10-11 pounds. Should I (ultimately) feed him two 5.5 ounce cans? Or is that too much?

 

I know that Dr. Lisa Pierson (the vet that put together the charts I linked to above), tried multiple times to get the nutrient analysis from them without success. Ask them for the "typical nutrient analysis" or the "as fed values", NOT the guaranteed analysis, which is what they will try to give you. If you can get a number from them, the phosphorus value they give you will not be broken down to mg/100 kcal, and if that's the case, the recommendation is less than 1% (which is about equal to 250mg/100kcal). Just to complicate things a bit more!

 

Yikes! Will do. Either way, since this is the first brand he's actually eating, I'm going to use it as his "transition" food (though thinking of going to the Pet Store tomorrow, grabbing a can of Evo and seeing if he'll eat it to avoid all of this!)

 

Just spoke with them (Blue Buffalo). As you said, they wouldn't give the "typical nutrient analysis" but they did tell me that the phosphorous level is .48%, so it's less than 1% , which is good. Of course, I'm not sure how accurate that is but I suspect it's *probably* not too far from the truth. Glad, at least til I can hopefully get him on Evo, he's enjoying/eating this and it's not too bad for him!

 

Eh, I'm not sure if they gave you the right number. .48% would put it lower than some low protein renal diets in terms of phos content, so I highly doubt it's an accurate number from the typical nutrient analysis. I wonder if it's some kind of minimum value. That's the problem when they won't release the whole thing! Ugh.

Anyway, I certainly don't think it's going to hurt anything for him to eat the BB for while until you can find a food that fits his requirements that he'll eat! Like I said, you feed him the best you can until you find a trick or food that works. We know that the BB mature chicken is probably not super high in carbs or phosphorus, which is good for now even if you aren't sure of the exact values, and eventually you can move him to something that you feel more certain about as you experiment with different foods and find others he likes.

The important thing is, he's eating the canned food! Even if this is the only canned food he'll eat, he's still better off than on the other diet.

 

Meanwhile, he gobbled up a small can of the BB yesterday and today....not so much (sigh). I threw out his old Greenies and Science Diet (I know, I know--that's what his diet was for most of his life) and he just stood there, staring at the big bag of food, wanting to dig in. Then walked over the canned stuff, groused and walked away. I'm going to buy that probiotic powder you recommended and see if it helps...

 

I have tried Tiki, and my cats liked it, but they'll eat anything! Bandit currently eats different Weruva flavors, and some different Wellness Core flavors. I would recommend checking out the Weruva Cats in the Kitchen line--they're a bit more reasonably priced than the regular Weruva line and there's a few in there that are low phos.

How much you feed depends on how high the calorie content is for the food. Is 10-11 lbs Lamont's ideal weight or does he need to gain weight? Typically older cats don't need quite as much food. Bandit's ideal weight is 11.5 lbs (we're currently trying to lose a lb because he gained weight when he was on steroids), and to maintain his weight he typically got 1 5.5 oz can of Wellness or EVO a day, or 2 3oz cans. The Weruva regular line is lower calorie, so I have to feed a bit more of that than I do Wellness to maintain his weight (about 8-12 oz a day (depending on the flavor) vs. 5.5-6 oz). The BB is 176 calories a 5.5 oz can, so I'd probably feed an 11 lb cat 1 and 1/4 or 1 and 1/2 cans a day. Just watch his weight and adjust the food up and down if he gets too heavy/thin.

 

Thanks again! Lamont's ideal weight is about 10.5 pounds. I'll probably end up giving him 1 & 1/2 cans to start with and monitor it after. Boy is this a project!!