Nienke & Blue looking for advice/help

Discussion in 'Feline Health - (Welcome & Main Forum)' started by Blue&Nikkie, Jun 15, 2016.

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  1. Blue&Nikkie

    Blue&Nikkie New Member

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    Jun 3, 2016
    Hi every one,

    My name is Nienke and I am from the Netherlands. Thanks to Ruby&Baco I learned about this forum and would like to ask all of you for some advice & help. Last year my Norwegian Forest Cat Blue was diagnosed with Diabetes at the age of almost 5 (12-08-2010).

    In april 2015 I noticed that Blue had lost a lot of weight, was drinking a lot of water and had been peeing outside the litter box for a while (I have 7 cats, so coming home from work, I never knew who was doing the peeing, but I did not suspect Blue). I took him to the vet. He was diagnosed with diabetes. At that time his blood sugar was around 550!

    Within a few days Blue was started on Caninsulin/Vetsulin. First week 1 unit twice a day, that did nothing. When he got 2 units and on the next spot test at the vet’s, his blood sugar range had gone down to 196 (around 11 am). We were pleased and Blue seemed to feel better and was playing again! But a few weeks later he did not seem to be doing well again. He was slow, lethargic, still drinking a lot, peeing in the house again and he refused to eat (which is a rare thing for my cats). I took him to the vet’s again and it turned out he had a urinary infection. He was given antibiotics, but a few days later he did not seem to be doing a whole lot better. So I contacted the vet’s and told him that if Blue wasn’t improving and eating I would like to have him admitted in the clinic.

    That said and done, Blue spent a few days at the clinic and came home feeling a lot better after a shot with other antibiotics and an increase of his Caninsulin to 4 units twice a day.

    Until that time I had not been given a whole lot of advice on the importance of a strict and consequent diet for Blue, so the vet’s asked me to bring him his own food.

    In September 2015 Blue became very sick.
    He was just laying on the floor all day, a bit lethargic, so after a few days when things got worse I called the vet in the evening and he told me Blue might be having a hypo and I needed to give him some sugar....which I did.
    I can’t remember exactly how Blue reacted to this, but end of story: we ended up admitting him at the vet’s during the weekend and there he was given fluids and potassium, because he was severely dehydrated and his potassium levels were dangerously low (which explained why he wasn’t eating. At that point there wasn’t a lot of life left in him.
    After a few days at the vet’s they told me there was not a lot they could do for him and I received the advice to take him to a more specialized veterinarian further away. Blue was admitted there and the first few days they tried balancing his potassium and insulin levels, because one was affecting the other and vice versa.
    He spent a total of almost two weeks here and was sent home alive and kicking on 2x 60 grams of Royal Canin Diabetic Dry food and 2x 7 units of Caninsulin a day. At that point they had determined that his lowest point was around 10 hours after his insulin shot.
    Blue did well for almost 7 months on this, having a blood suger range of 90, almost every time we checked around 5 p.m at the vets……until recently.

    Beginning of May I took all my cat’s to the vet for their shots and Blue’s blood sugar was again around 550. In the week that I took him with me on a holiday in the Netherlands and it became more and more difficult to get him to eat, because he simple refused the Royal Canin Diabetic. In order to make him eat something I started to substitute (parts) of his Royal Canin Diabetic for Cosma nature fish and chicken, which he did want tot eat, and mixed the two together. I adjusted his doses of insulin on a daily based on how much he ate, but I did not really know the exact amount to give because of the difference in food.
    After the holiday I started doing the home glucose tests again and every day the situation was different.

    The vet’s don’t want to or are unable to advice me unless he is admitted again with very high costs…….and at this point I don’t know what to do!
    I would like to have him off the Royal Canin diabetic and I want to give him and all of my other cats food with no or low carbs, since I have read things about this on the Dutch chat groups.

    At the moment he does not eat his diet (2x 60 grams RC diabetic), but we get close, so I do give him is 7 units of Caninsulin, because he is/was in the habit of asking for food around the time his blood sugar get’s low. But he is not in his right mood. I can tell he has not been feeling well the last two weeks (he’s very communicative) and the last few days I noticed that his blood sugar levels reach their lowest point a lot sooner during the day, but they don’t drop below 180.

    I would like to get some advice from you all what to feed him and what to do to get him back in good shape and on his way to remission…..
     
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  2. Olive & Paula

    Olive & Paula Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2015
    Hello Nikki and Blue.

    Welcome. Are you home testing? It would help you know what is going on and help you save the expense of the vet. A human meter is perfectly fine to use even if your vet doesn't advocate it. We all home test here even though we were told it wasn't necessary. Usually test before each shot so you know it's safe to give and test at your bedtime so you know kitty will be safe overnight. And of course anytime in between is very help. Blue will not hate you for this. Most cats actually learn to like it, because they get a treat each time.

    I do not know what is available where you are. Also food is important, low carb and preferably meals spread out during the day and night. An automatic feeder works very well if your working or go out for extended time.

    There are many helpful sticky notes on the site regarding testing, feeding, foods, insulin. Please familiarize yourself with them.

    Others will belong shortly, as there are people here from all over. Some one from your part can help with foods and or meters.
     
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  3. Blue&Nikkie

    Blue&Nikkie New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2016
    Hello Woodsywife,
    Thanks for you comment.
    Yes, we do home testing. I bought two devices last year, the Freestyle InsuLinx from Abbott and I also have the Glucomen LX plus from Menarini, because it can test ketone (don’t know if that is the right word)
    At the moment I am testing with the InsuLinx.

    I want to to change Blue’s food from RC Diabetic to something with low carbs, but I don’t know how to adjust the Caninsulin to this.
    It’s very hard to feed during the daytime when I am working and since I have 7 cat’s who all have a big appetite, it’s no use leaving food for Blue or using an automatic feeder. I know there are automatic feeders with chipreaders on the market here, but the reviews on those vary.
     
  4. Alexi

    Alexi Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2016
    Hello and welcome. If you are home testing it would be really helpful if you could set up a spreadsheet so we can have a look at it. 7 units sounds like quite a large dose - how much does Blue weigh? How soon after the shots does he hit his low point? Changing food will help but you must be testing at frequent intervals to keep him safe as a food change can drop sugars quite dramatically. Do you also test him for ketones? Blood sugar can often be higher at the vets, and from your description it sounds as though he had an episode of ketoacidosis when he was admitted at the vets. I am concerned his dose is actually too high at the moment but we need some more information first. We can guide you through this.
     
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  5. Blue&Nikkie

    Blue&Nikkie New Member

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    Jun 3, 2016
    Blue weighs 7 kg.
    His low point used to after around 10 hours past the shot. This week it seems to be 6 hours after. I can not quite figure this change out.....
    And yes, I think you might be right about the ketoacidosis, but both my vet’s denied this....
    At the moment he is not eating his normal amount of food, and I do give him his 7 unit’s, so my gut tells me he is getting too much, but test results are inconclusive. I do not test for ketones at the moment.
     
  6. Olive & Paula

    Olive & Paula Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2015
    Nikki,

    I'm Paula by the way. It will be tricky but with due diligence can be done. First do not do it all at once. You will need to monitor closely as glucose can drop significantly.

    I think I will defer you to more experienced people on how to transition. I myself not knowing better, just cut out the dry food all at once and not home testing. Needless to say we had a problem.

    Stock up on the food your going use, and plenty of test strips. Some one will help you. Good luck.
     
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  7. Alexi

    Alexi Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2016
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  8. Blue&Nikkie

    Blue&Nikkie New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2016
    Hi Paula,
    Thank you! I realize of course it can’t be done all at once :cat:
    But something has to change and the vet’s are not helping, so thanks to Ruby&Baco I came here.
    How is your cat doing right now?
     
  9. Blue&Nikkie

    Blue&Nikkie New Member

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    Jun 3, 2016
    Alexi, thanks, yes I will fill in the spreadsheet.
     
  10. Ruby&Baco

    Ruby&Baco Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2016
    Hi Nienke, Just read your post, you made it to the FDMB page.:bighug:
    Welcome to the group, I know I’ve had so much help here with Baco that you will also get the best help and advice there is.:)

    @Woodsywife The food isn't an issue, I can help Nienke with that (I also live in The Netherlands)
    @Blue&Nikkie : I would suggest you change Blue's diet, this because raw/wet food is much better than dry food, and it really is better than RC diabetic dry food.
    They have a lot of carbs in them and that will spike Blue's numbers up high.
    You can try Barf or Haaksbarf (http://www.animalfoodexpress.nl/) If you want help in what to order I can help you with that.
    The best thing to do is to mix it up with some felix elke dag feest (brand) so you 'fool' your cat a little in to thinking it's nice jummy food, but it's lower in carbs (6,5%) and mix it with raw food.
    You can decrease the amount of felix every day with 10% and increase raw food so you can give Blue the time to get used to this food.
    If you need help with that, I can set up a schedule for you if you want? I did this with Baco also to let her get used to the raw food.

    I’m not familiar with caninsulin so that’s something I can’t help you with.
    The most important thing for Blue is to get steady in having his food and his insulin dose.

    @Robin&BB @Bobbie And Bubba @Rachel @Sue and Oliver (GA) I know you all aren't caninsulin experts, but maybe you can help Nienke with some tips for the food challenge she has with her 7 cats?
     
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  11. Tuxedo Mom

    Tuxedo Mom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2014
    Welcome to Blue & Nikkie :bighug:

    There are some very experienced members that can help with the transition to wet food and dosing changes.

    One thing you mentioned was that the nadir seems to come around +10. That is very unusual for Caninsulin/Vetsulin. Usually the nadir will come very quickly. usually around +4 or +5 and then coast along slowly increasing as the insulin wears off/ Have you done any tests earlier in the cycle. Getting a preshot test, then a +2 and +4 should show how quickly the Caninsulin is dropping the numbers.


    To get more people seeing your post and questions you can post in the Feline Health section, with a title of "New here and need dosing/feeding advice with Caninsulin" and post a link from this thread so that people can read the background you have provided. Here is the link to that forum:

    http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/forums/feline-health-the-main-forum.28/

    A change from dry food to all wet low carb food can make a big difference in numbers. Glad Ruby will be able to help you with the low carb wet food that is available to you in the Netherelands.
     
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  12. Blue&Nikkie

    Blue&Nikkie New Member

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    Jun 3, 2016
    Hi Ruby,
    Thank you, yes a schedule would be helpful, but I have one question....my cat’s never eat Felix. I buy my catfood online from Zooplus. They have a lot of grainfree and 75% meat wetfoods with low carbs that Blue and my other cat’s love. Mostly tuna and chicken. Can I use this as well?
    Blue is already used to Haaksbarf (little bits) and Carnibest, so maybe it’s wise to make a schedule to go from RC Diabetic with Barf to only Barf? That way I can monitor day by day in steps what happens if I take him of the RC Diabetic and how to adjust his Caninsulin....?
     
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  13. Ruby&Baco

    Ruby&Baco Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2016
    That is also possible, can you tell me exactly what Blue get from Royal Canin diabetic line? so I can calculate how much carbs are in it and I can make a schedule for you.
    And can you tell me how much (in grams) Blue gets every day to eat?
     
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  14. Blue&Nikkie

    Blue&Nikkie New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2016
    Hi Tuxedo mom,
    Thank you. Yes I know, I found that weird as well in the beginning reading about the effects of Caninsulin/Vetsulin, but it’s simply what happened. Someone already said that he might have had Ketoacidosis....could this have this effect? Also, my vet told me today Blue is a little different than other diabetic cats and he doesn’t quite know how to deal with that.
    His preshot tests the last few days are around +20. The tests at +2 or +4 vary around 10-14. I will fill in the spreadsheet tonight to make it more clear for you all.
    Okay, thanks for the advice, I will post in the other section as well!
     
  15. Blue&Nikkie

    Blue&Nikkie New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2016
    @Ruby&Baco : Blue’s food at the moment is 20 grams of RC Diabetic dry-food around 5 p.m. Than at 7 p.m. he get’s 40 grams of RC diabetic wet food (portieverpakking), sometimes mixed with a spoon of fish of chicken if he is being picky and after that another 20-25 grams of RC diabetic dry food. I read somewhere the ratio dry/wet is 10/40, so in total he get’s about 55 grams of RC diabetic.
    If you want me to I’ll write some more details in Dutch on messenger.
     
  16. Ruby&Baco

    Ruby&Baco Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2016
    Okay, I will work with that. do you weight Blue yourself?
    yes please send me some more details on messenger so I can make a schedule for you to swith to raw food for 100%.
     
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  17. Olive & Paula

    Olive & Paula Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2015
    Glad to see others are helping you. Smokey is holding his own, despite other health issues this year. His story is in my profile under the information tab if your interested. Thanks for asking.

    It would be ideal if all kitties ate the same thing at the same time, but we don't live in an ideal world. Mine use to be free fed dry and wet for dinner. One non diabetic will only eat dry, but is getting better with wet. They are now on Smokey's schedule which is every 3 hrs. Sometimes they eat, sometimes they don't. I stand guard while they are eating especially if dry (now low carb dry) is down. There are some flavors my 2 non diabetic cats just won't eat so I use them in the feeder overnight for Smokey. His internal clock sends him to feeder about 10 minutes before it opens so he gets the food first. The other two will only eat the food if they are desperate and then it's what Smokey leaves behind.
     
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2016
  18. Rachel

    Rachel Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2013
    I'm not sure what to do per the 7 kitties who like to eat! The best thing I can think of is putting Blue in a room alone to eat. Would that be possible?
     
  19. Blue&Nikkie

    Blue&Nikkie New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2016
    Hi Rachel,
    I’ve tried that.....but Blue is a real Houdini. He opens doors even if they turn inwards and if you block the door handle. :smuggrin:
    He has made it clear he doesn’t like to be confined to one room and be locked up on his own as my cat’s can usually run around the whole house.
    But I can separate him at dinnertime.
     
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