? Oreo Joe - I am flying by the seat of my pants on this help me

Discussion in 'Prozinc / PZI' started by Bonnie & Oreo Joe, Jul 8, 2018.

  1. Bonnie & Oreo Joe

    Bonnie & Oreo Joe Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2017
    I have Oreo Joe's spread sheet completely filled out through this AM. I am wondering after reading until my headaches and not really finding any answer, should I lower his insulin to 2 and wait a week between each change or do I hang in there at 4 U. You can see he had improved and was in the yellow but I know he should be lower for his kidney's. The only vet clinic available to me (as are ones in neighboring towns) filled with vets who have never treated a diabetic cat with testing and insulin. Or even seen a diabetic cat.

    I hope someone can help me I am feeling so uncertain and invisible.
    Thank you, Bonnie
     
  2. Rachel

    Rachel Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2013
    It's really hard to say Bonnie without some mid cycle testing. I know it's tough to get, but is there any way you could grab a few tests in the next couple of days mid cycle? Without knowing what the insulin is doing, we have no idea if he is going low or staying flat and we can't really advise well since that info is what we use to decide.

    You're NOT invisible or alone. We're here for you. We want to help but we just need a little more data to do so effectively.
     
    FurBabiesMama and Djamila like this.
  3. Bonnie & Oreo Joe

    Bonnie & Oreo Joe Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2017
    Ok I will do a few mid day tests. I did grab some during JUne but see that I haven't in July. Thank you Rachel. I am going back to 3½ this pm. I don't like him high in the morning, he feels crappy all day. It is hot for Sweden again and he barely moves he lays stretched on the floor like a rug. Hugs, Bonnie
     
  4. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2015
    Hi Bonnie. Great job getting the mid-cycle tests. Did you go up to 3 1/2? The spreadsheet says 3, so I just wanted to check. It does look like OJ could use an increase when you're ready to try it.
     
  5. Bonnie & Oreo Joe

    Bonnie & Oreo Joe Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2017
    Hi! I went to 3U as I had only tried 4 a couple of shots. He was looking flat and then this morning he was 329.4!
    The vet taking our vets calls said I was to drop back to 1½ or lower as she thought he was rebounding and I missed his correct dose but I didn't, trusting a group who actually has worked with diabetic cats as opposed to Oreo Joe being the only one the practice has ever had.
    How long do I keep up these spot checks - have a nasty habit of running out of test strips.
    I will go back to 3½ again tonight. He was on 3½ before for 10 days and stayed pretty much the same.
    Thank you! Bonnie
     
  6. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2015
    I would not stay at the same dose for ten days. You can raise the dose after three cycles. Most people find it easiest to raise at four cycles so that they are always increasing on a morning cycle since it's easier to get mid-cycle tests during the day.

    If you look at other people's spreadsheets, you'll see that most of us do a test before each shot, and try to get at least one mid-cycle test each cycle. So I usually do a total of between 3-5 tests each day. It's the mid-cycle tests that tell you if the dose is working, and help to know if the problem is rebound as your vet suggests, or not enough insulin. Based on the mid-cycle test you've done the past few days, it does not look like rebound to me. It looks like OJ just needs more insulin.

    Many vets, and it seems this is particularly true in Europe, don't think a cat should need more than 2u and they get nervous at higher doses. Unfortunately, many cats need more than that. If you are more comfortable taking your vets advice and want to lower the dose, you can do that, but I would strongly recommend if you choose to do that, that you be prepared to quickly move him back up through the dose changes and don't leave him down there for very long.

    Instead, I would suggest that you start working through some increases every few cycles until we start to see some better numbers. If you tend to run out of test strips, buy a couple of extra boxes to keep as back-up in the cupboard. Especially if you're going to do the increases more consistently, you'll want to make sure you're prepared.
     
  7. Bonnie & Oreo Joe

    Bonnie & Oreo Joe Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2017
    Ok great! I prefer to believe what I hear in this group. This vet clinic the head vet had 1 diabetic cat years ago and they tried the pills and when that didn't work the cat was put to sleep. My Oreo Joe is the first real diabetic cat they have seen that is actually being treated like an American vet would.
    I will take him up to 4 in the AM. I felt he needed to go up simply because he stayed on one dose a very long time.
    I have an order in for more sticks which will be picked up tomorrow. Since people get all of their diabetic supplies free ( if you count the 75% tax on wages and when you buy anything there is a 25% tax on the item. You can't buy anything without the 25% tax.) So the pharmacy doesn't carry them and I actually need a prescription for insulin needles!!! How much of an illegal drug can I put in one of them? Am updating his spread sheet now. Thank you!! Hugs, Bonnie and OJ
     
  8. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2015
    There are several states here in the US that require prescriptions for insulin needles too. Hang in there and keep us posted on how he does with the 4u.
     
  9. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2016
    I had a look at your spreadsheet, Bonnie, and less pink is good. However, I'd continue the half unit increases every 4 cycles or so. You want to see blues sooner than later. When did you start your current vial of ProZinc? Could it be losing its oomph?
     
  10. Bonnie & Oreo Joe

    Bonnie & Oreo Joe Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2017

    Hi! I started the vial on May 16th and I have finished it this morning. I was labeled as good for a year I believe so it was new and never opened in May. I just put a + 4 in and he is so flat. I will go to 4½ tomorrow AM. How high in insulin do we go? I just bought this new vial and would like to use it as it is so expensive. But changing to another insulin would that mean he might need lower doses? The vet that is not ours - said she was thinking she would not order the insulin unless I stopped his Hypothyroid meds until he was doing better and his diabetes was stable. I don't think stopping that would help and only harm him.
    Hope our vet is back soon. Thanks for checking. Hugs, Bonnie
     
  11. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2016
    You go as high as he needs to get his BG into better ranges. The dose of 4 units, while a bit higher than average, is not that high.

    No, there shouldn't be a big difference. A unit of insulin is a unit of insulin regardless of the type. A unit is defined by its biological action. The slight differences in dose from one insulin to another would have more to do with the specific action of the insulin (how quickly it takes effect, whether it's what is called a "depot" insulin or not).

    This makes no sense to me. A thyroid condition needs to be treated because there can be many significant health effects otherwise. It can take a very long time to stabilize diabetes. Some vets seem to think it can happen in a short time - not so. There are many members here who have diabetic kitties on meds for hyperthyroidism (much more common than hypothyroid) and they find a way to manage it. Hypothyroidism is rare so it might be harder to get good advice. Whatever the other health issues, though, you can work the insulin dosing around them.
     
  12. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2015
    Bonnie, is there any chance you're giving fur shots? This is kind of a long shot, but I just want to make sure we're covering all of our bases in figuring out what's going on with your kitty.

    Some cats like mine have a very thick undercoat even though they are short haired cats. It can feel like you're injecting into the skin, but really it's just going into the undercoat. And it's thick enough that there might not even be a wet spot until a while later. After you inject, try sticking your nose into his fur near the area where you injected and sniffing around. You should just smell cat. If you smell a strong bandaid smell, it may have been a fur shot.

    I was just thinking about this because when Sam was diagnosed I gave him a TON of fur shots. It was so frustrating. I would try and try to be sure it was going into his skin, but his undercoat (and his tendency to wiggle) caused me no end of trouble. I finally ended up shaving a small little patch of fur so I could see his skin and make sure I was getting the needle where it needed to go.
     

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