Pita's Dosing Party: 11

Discussion in 'Prozinc / PZI' started by Caitlin M, Feb 11, 2018.

  1. Caitlin M

    Caitlin M Well-Known Member

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    Hello everyone! Happy February. Big month for us around here. It'll be Pita's insulin-versary (18th) and my birthday just a few days later. Aaah! Anywho, I wanted to check in to see how everyone is doing- how are you?!
    Pita is doing well and of course I had a question as well. He's been consistently in the 100's for pre-shots and is currently receiving 3.2 units. He's getting some very nice greens from it so I'm wondering if I should just hold him here or see if I can get his pre-shots a bit lower? I know I've asked this before but I feel like since things change so much, I forgot. My next hope is to actually lower the units he's receiving as this is the most he's ever been given. Thanks all!
     
  2. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

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    Hmmm...I'm actually wondering if he needs a reduction. I remember that he tends to run lower than many cats, so I'm not too worried about those lime greens, but since they are caused my insulin and not natural, it could be that his liver is dumping glucose to compensate which would increase those pre-shot numbers. Maybe if you give him a bit less insulin, he would flatten out more. Don't know if that will work, but it might be worth trying. Also, since many cats run lower at night, I'm wondering if he's going even lower at night than the limes you're seeing during the day. There isn't a lot of middle-of-the-night testing (I know - sleep is important too :)), but it makes me wonder how low he's going during the hours that we don't see, which again, could cause a glucose dump that might inflate some of the other numbers.

    Happy almost insulin-versary! And happy almost birthday to you too! You'll have to post closer to the real day so we can have a little party! :cat:
     
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  3. Caitlin M

    Caitlin M Well-Known Member

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    How much of a reduction do you think may be good? In the back of my mind I was wondering the exact same thing, just not sure where to go!
     
  4. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

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    The "rules" are that every time they hit a lime green, you give a reduction. It looks like you're able to catch his nadir pretty consistently, so maybe go back to 3u, then if he hits lime again, go to 2.8, etc. Of course keeping an eye on the pre-shots as well. If this starts to backfire and the pre-shots go up, we'll know this isn't going to work for him. That might be a little hard to gauge since your PS numbers are a pretty broad range from 117 to 195 recently, but I think you'll get a sense of if he's trending higher. And also, if there are any nights when you go to bed late, or get home late or something if you can grab some PM tests, that might help too. Looking back through your 2017 data, it looks like a lot of the time he ran pretty even between AM and PM cycles, but there were a few period when he ran lower at night, so just grab them if you can - I don't think you need to set an alarm or anything.
     
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  5. Caitlin M

    Caitlin M Well-Known Member

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    Thank you! I'll try the 3 units tonight :)
    And somehow I feel like I never knew about the lime green reduction! Learn something new every day.
     
  6. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

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    It applies the most to newer cats who are more sensitive. Our older veteran cats who have had a remission usually go three limes before a reduction. But a lot of it comes down to knowing your cat, and considering when it falls in the cycle, how much you can monitor, how easily your cat can be steered with low carb vs. high carb food, etc. So it isn't a rule as much as a guideline, I guess. :D Lots of factors work into it.
     
  7. Caitlin M

    Caitlin M Well-Known Member

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    Matt recently said that he still doesn't quite understand the whole process and I had told him that I don't fully either and probably never will given how much changes! This is a good point for that.
     
  8. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

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    I don't think any of us fully understand this. There are just too many variables since every cat is different, and since even in the same cat, things change over time. Sometimes it's just a matter of trying things and seeing what works.
     
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  9. Rachel

    Rachel Well-Known Member

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    Happy insulin-versary and birthday!!!!

    Yeah this sugar dance is tough to understand. Really its The ECID thing that makes it tough. Because what worked beautifully for one cat might not work for another...I know I don’t fully understand what’s happening!
     
  10. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    I don't either! I just go with the flow ... :confused:
     
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  11. Caitlin M

    Caitlin M Well-Known Member

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    @Djamila are you still up? I'm not sure who else is due to the time difference. PMPS was just a 99! Which is good, but I'm not exactly sure what to do. Help?! :confused:
     
  12. Caitlin M

    Caitlin M Well-Known Member

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    He just ate. I think looking back at his PS numbers I need to just NS. If anyone reads this within the next 30 minutes and thinks I should maybe give a tiny dose, let me know! Otherwise I think I'll just be safe and NS then see what tomorrow brings.
     
  13. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

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    Whoa...that isn't what I expected given your mid-cycles today! Let me look at the SS for a second....
     
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  14. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

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    I think I've seen you manage him long enough to trust your mama sense. So if you're feeling like NS is the right thing to do tonight, then go with that. However, since his dose is so high right now, I think he could likely handle a dose of some sort, despite the low number tonight. You gave him a full dose on 112 and 117 recently which are both pretty close to what you're seeing tonight - we don't have data to show where it went though, and the doses were slightly lower than his current dose.

    If it was me, I might be inclined to give him 1u anyway, just so he isn't completely on his own tonight, but again, he's low enough that typically skipping would be advised. And I think I'd set an alarm to grab something about +3 or +4. So if you really need your sleep tonight, NS is probably best.
     
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  15. Caitlin M

    Caitlin M Well-Known Member

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    Thanks Djamila!
     
  16. Caitlin M

    Caitlin M Well-Known Member

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    In case you're wondering! Haha I shot 1 unit and will just go up and test :)
     
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  17. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

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    When I looked at your SS earlier tonight, I thought dropping the dose to 3u had been the wrong call. But looking at the PMPS tonight and the way his cycle waved today makes me think maybe even 3u is too much? Our sugar kitties are so weird!!! Why can't they just make this easy and always follow the rules?!?! Curious to see where he ends up in the morning....
     
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  18. Rachel

    Rachel Well-Known Member

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    Well look at you go Pita! Looks like 1 unit kept him flat last night and gave a nice blue this AM! I’m glad you gave him some and glad Djamila was here!
     
  19. Caitlin M

    Caitlin M Well-Known Member

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    135 amps. Unit recommendation?!
     
  20. Caitlin M

    Caitlin M Well-Known Member

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    I'm not sure if I should stick with 3 units again since it's close to yesterday am # or maybe split it and give 2 units?
     
  21. Caitlin M

    Caitlin M Well-Known Member

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    Going with 2 units! If I need to work back up the unit pole I will :)
     
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  22. Rachel

    Rachel Well-Known Member

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    Whoops sorry Caitlin! You just happened to post while I was in a meeting so I didn't see this til later. Looks like 2 gave you a fairly flat cycle today. Not bad at all...and good data of course!
     
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  23. Caitlin M

    Caitlin M Well-Known Member

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    I'm already trying to figure out what to do for tonight. Which is silly since I have no clue what his number will be. But, I'm wondering if I should try 2.5 units assuming things star in the bracket he's been in all day. Thoughts?
     
  24. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

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    Assuming a normal or higher PMPS, I think 2.5u sounds good. This may take a few cycles to work out, and a little trial and error along the way.
     
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  25. Caitlin M

    Caitlin M Well-Known Member

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    Well I'm just flabbergasted! Pita had a beautiful 56 @ +6 and somehow just gave me a 363 PMPS. He was asleep the entire time ( 2+ hours) I've been home before this! I did two strips and took the median number from them, so it definitely wasn't just one weird strip. Oh well, I'm going to stick with the 2.5 and see what happens. Lol I'm just baffled! Oh Pita...maybe he knows it's nearly insulin-versary so he's making it memorable?! :p who the heck knows!
     
  26. Rachel

    Rachel Well-Known Member

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    Maybe he found a cake to celebrate the insulin-versary! ;)
     
  27. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    They try really hard to confound us! :confused:
     
  28. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

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    Oh wow. That is a jump! Hopefully it's just an anomaly and you won't see any more of those!
     
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  29. Caitlin M

    Caitlin M Well-Known Member

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    Had a 56 @ +3.25 last night. He woke me up which was good so I could give him gravy food. I'll see what his AMPS is soon.
     
  30. Caitlin M

    Caitlin M Well-Known Member

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    177 amps, decided to try 2 units in case the 2.5 is causing him to drop quickly and be strange. I'll give this a few days before going back up or down!
     
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  31. Caitlin M

    Caitlin M Well-Known Member

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    +3.75 was 169 and +6.25 was 139. I'll see where his PMPS is, but now I feel like 2 units isn't quite enough. :banghead::bookworm:
     
  32. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

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    Can you split the difference and do 2.25?
     
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  33. Caitlin M

    Caitlin M Well-Known Member

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    Absolutely :joyful:
     
  34. Caitlin M

    Caitlin M Well-Known Member

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    138 PMPS, gave 2.25
     
  35. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

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    Now to wait and see if that will work for a few cycles....
     
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  36. Caitlin M

    Caitlin M Well-Known Member

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    Numbers have crept up a bit so I gave 2.4 units this am. Overall doing well!
     
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  37. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

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    Good call. Both of our boys are keeping us dancing these days - a little bit forward, a little bit back. Other than numbers, he seems okay?
     
  38. Caitlin M

    Caitlin M Well-Known Member

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    He's eating normally, sleeping all day as usual. No behavior changes! In fact he's currently snoring at the foot of our bed :rolleyes:
     
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  39. Caitlin M

    Caitlin M Well-Known Member

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    We had a 181 AMPS today and I bumped him to 2.6 units. Tested at +3.5 and he was at 61. I fed 1 tsp of gravy food and tested at +4.5 and he was at 78. In hindsight I realized I may have jumped the gun and could have waited another hour to retest before giving the gravy food. Got a 187 PMPS. So all in all a pretty good day I think?!
     
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  40. Rachel

    Rachel Well-Known Member

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    Woah Pita!!! Some nice numbers...
     
  41. Caitlin M

    Caitlin M Well-Known Member

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    Happy hump day everyone! So, I'm a bit confused about where to go. Pita's had slightly higher PS numbers the past couple days and has been on 2.6 units the past three whole days. Yesterday he had a nice 56 @ +6, and his +4 number today was similar to yesterday's +3. Based on this, it's quite possible he got as low as 56 or maybe even a bit lower again today and I didn't catch it. With the past few days, I'm wondering if I should hold this 2.6 units for now or increase/decrease. Ha, reading that back I basically have no F*ing clue what's best to do from here! Yeah, suggestions, please?!

    Also, as many of you may remember, Pita started to give me major problems a couple months into this whole testing routine-where I had to burrito him and deal with hissing and lots of negative feelings from us both. (It obviously got much better!). I believe Matt is in this middle ground now as well. The past couple times he's tried to test, Pita has refused to eat his snacks, jerked his head away, sat in the corner and hissed/growled at Matt when he tries again. This morning was an example of it and I just tested when I got home (spoiled boy). I told Matt to just keep trying and not worry about it if he can't get blood, especially if I can test soon after. I don't want Pita to think he can get out of testing with Matt but I also want them both to be safe and [relatively] happy.
     
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  42. Caitlin M

    Caitlin M Well-Known Member

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    Also...
     

    Attached Files:

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  43. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Cute - but bad - boy! In my opinion, Caitlin, I'd keep 2.6 u for another cycle or two. That 56 is very recent and is as low as you want to go. Try for a +4 in the evening if possible.
     
  44. Caitlin M

    Caitlin M Well-Known Member

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    Just saw this and did not get any tests during the night. Will try to tonight since I have no work in the am. Thanks Kris!
     
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  45. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

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    I don't like those yellows showing up again, and understand the temptation to do another increase. I agree with Kris though - I'd hold another cycle or two and see what the data shows you. If he flattens out, then do the increase, but if you're still seeing those 50's around nadir, hold steady. Do see if you or Matt can get a middle-of-the-night test sometime this weekend. It could be he's rebounding a little from an overnight low, and that's why you're seeing the yellows at AMPS (just being an optimist here :D)

    We passed your official insulin-versary didn't we?!!?! Happy insulin-versary! Or do we express condolences for that? Regardless, I'm glad you're still around! From our waiting up and worrying though our first low numbers together nearly a year ago, to all of the twin numbers and similar patterns, it's been so good to have you here!

    And that sweet sleepy picture is just too much!!! What a handsome kitty!

    FWIW, I agree with you that he doesn't get out of the test just because he's grumpy with Matt. Make sure Matt is giving him love and a treat even if the test isn't a total success. And does Pita like being talked to when you're testing? My pet sitter just had a breakthrough with Sam when I told her to talk to him in a low voice the whole time she's testing. She managed to get a test in while I was gone! Has Matt tried the burrito? And maybe a larger lancet for a little while so that when he does poke he can get a big quick drop of blood? Fingers crossed they get through this phase quickly! :bighug:
     
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  46. Rachel

    Rachel Well-Known Member

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    How adorable!!!! I agree about holding the dose and seeing what happens.

    As for Matt, I feel for him! I’d also remind him that if he doesn’t get blood after 3 tries walk away for 15 minutes (after first giving a treat) then try again. Gives them a chance to cool off but shows that the test will still happen...might help!
     
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  47. Caitlin M

    Caitlin M Well-Known Member

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    Happy Friday everyone! 144 PMPS last night. Gave the 2.6 and tested at +4.5 for a 71. Tried to test him about an hour ago and he didn't want anything to do with treats/ wouldn't sit, so I said okay, we'll wait about half an hour. He still didn't eat any treats but did sit for me- 115 AMPS. I think that makes sense if he's feeling a bit better, he doesn't necessarily want treats/testing but I obviously feel badly that he went too low overnight. Regardless, what kind of dose should I give on that? I'm able to test all day so that's not an issue.
     
  48. Caitlin M

    Caitlin M Well-Known Member

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    Thanks Djamila! It is what it is, and at least Pita seems happy and healthy otherwise!!
     
  49. Caitlin M

    Caitlin M Well-Known Member

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    He's eating his regular food right now also, so no problems there!
     
  50. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

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    Oh that's so hard to say! On one hand, he might have just had a really long surf last night, in which case I would say to hold the dose and just monitor him today. Looking at the past few days, it doesn't really look like the 2.6 is too much. It actually looks really good.

    But on the other hand, maybe he did go too low and needs to drop back to 2.4 or 2.5?

    What does your gut tell you? you've always had good mama-sense.
     
  51. Caitlin M

    Caitlin M Well-Known Member

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    Hmm, I'm thinking just hold the dose and monitor. The last time I dropped it down I felt like it was a bit wonky to get him back to consistent numbers. I'll give him a morning off :cool:
     
  52. Caitlin M

    Caitlin M Well-Known Member

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    Wait, did you mean NS or give the 2.6?! I may have confused myself
     
  53. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

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    I meant 2.6. Oh..."hold the dose"! Yes, I meant keep the same dose. Not withhold the dose. I see how that could be confusing!

    You've given Pita his full dose on lower numbers before. Sometimes he's okay with it and sometimes he dives, so it just depends on if you want to monitor and possibly steer a little, or take it easy today.

    If you don't want to shoot the full 2.6, I don't think I would NS though - he's on too big of a dose right now and if you NS it might take a few days to get him back.
     
  54. Caitlin M

    Caitlin M Well-Known Member

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    Ok, that's what I thought after I posted. Ha! Giving the 2.6 :joyful:
     
  55. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

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    Good luck! I hope he behaves for you today!
     
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  56. Caitlin M

    Caitlin M Well-Known Member

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    Pita and I may have fallen back asleep for a few hours :p Just did a +4 and he's at 78. I'm planning a test again at about +5.5!
     
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  57. Caitlin M

    Caitlin M Well-Known Member

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    65 @ +5.75
    70 @ +6.5

    Yayyy! Hoping for a lower PMPS again.
     
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  58. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

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    Nice long surf today! Hopefully you'll get that nice PMPS you're wanting (hint: Sam was only 110 tonight)
     
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  59. Caitlin M

    Caitlin M Well-Known Member

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    Hahaha if all else fails, look to Sam ;)
     
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  60. Rachel

    Rachel Well-Known Member

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    Hahahaha you know Sam and Pita are BFFs on that secret kitty forum!
     
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  61. Caitlin M

    Caitlin M Well-Known Member

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    Well darn! 153 PMPS, gave 2.6 :)
     
  62. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

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    Still not bad though! And at least you got a good night's sleep!
     
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  63. Caitlin M

    Caitlin M Well-Known Member

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    127 amps, shot 2.6 again!
     
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  64. Caitlin M

    Caitlin M Well-Known Member

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    I'm happy but stumped! 99 PMPS. Had a gorgeous surf today. Not sure what I should give for dose tonight. @Djamila it's not too late- are you awake?
     
  65. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

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    I am awake (though barely!). Hang on a sec...let me peek at the SS...
     
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  66. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

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    Hmmm....I would shoot but with a reduction b/c of the low nadirs you've been seeing. 2.0? 2.2? 2.4? Probably closer to the 2.0-2.2 if it was me. Particularly because it's nighttime.
     
  67. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

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    I see not too long ago you gave 1u on a similar PMPS and the AMPS was fine, so you could also go with something like that.

    Okay, now I'm not being helpful at all...:rolleyes:
     
  68. Caitlin M

    Caitlin M Well-Known Member

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    Yeah I was thinking it needed to be more than the 1 unit I shot at the last 99 PS. Thanks lady! I appreciate it. Now go to bed :D
     
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  69. Caitlin M

    Caitlin M Well-Known Member

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    I actually think the 1 unit was too low because he ended up with some higher PS the days after- but it may also be because of the dosing afterwards. If he's a 'normal' AMPS tomorrow I'll go back to 2.6! I'll get a test later this evening also.
     
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  70. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

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    Basically anything you dose on a number like that is going to be a bit of a guess. Pita tends to be rather consistent in his needs and responses, which is why I thought a bigger dose will likely be okay. It's so hard during the PM cycles since we need to sleep. Fingers crossed he behaves for you tonight. Just leave him some extra food just in case.

    Sleep well!
     
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  71. Rachel

    Rachel Well-Known Member

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    Nice PMPS Pita!
     
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  72. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

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    Disclaimer for anyone reading this thread: Caitlin has been at this for a long time and has a lot of data showing how Pita responds - it is not generally recommended to shoot on a green, especially such a large dose, but this is an experienced caregiver with a cat who has very consistent, predictable responses. Please don't try this on your own!
     
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  73. Caitlin M

    Caitlin M Well-Known Member

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    Was 75 @ +5 (2:30am) overnight, so phew! 154 AMPS which is back to where he has been, so all is good! I think sticking with 2.6 is still best for now?! Thanks everyone.
     
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  74. Rachel

    Rachel Well-Known Member

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    Yep I’d stick with it for now. Basically perfect nadir!
     
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  75. Caitlin M

    Caitlin M Well-Known Member

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    113 PMPS. I shot a full dose the other morning on a 115 AMPS so I'll get up in a few hours and test. If anyone has a different thought, please let me know soon!
     
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  76. Rachel

    Rachel Well-Known Member

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    I like it! As Djamila said, you have lots of experience and data, so shooting the full dose on this number is a good choice for you and Pita! :)
     
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  77. Caitlin M

    Caitlin M Well-Known Member

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    Ended up sleeping through my night alarms to test him but he had a relatively normal AMPS. Gave the 2.6 and he's had a nice, slightly steered day!
     
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  78. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

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    You might try reducing a smidge to 2.5 or even 2.4. He's had one clear lime green, a 50 that you had to steer, and I'm guessing that 220 was a bounce from the night before. I would count that as enough evidence to reduce a drop or two.
     
  79. Caitlin M

    Caitlin M Well-Known Member

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    I literally said the same thing about ten minutes ago! Just did a +4 and he's at 50, so I fed 1 tsp. Yeah I'm thinking 2.4 for tonight. He's still going a bit high on PS but it may be from going low, even though I catch it. Thanks Djamila!
     
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  80. Rachel

    Rachel Well-Known Member

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    Woah Pita! Sounds like shaving it down a tad is a good plan. :)
     
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  81. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

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    Now if we could just get Sam to take a hint and drop down a bit too....
     
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  82. Caitlin M

    Caitlin M Well-Known Member

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    @Djamila are you still awake?! Just had a 96 PMPS and know I should reduce a bit but wanted a second opinion. On 2/26 with a 99 PMPS I reduced by .4 (2.6 down to 2.2). I'm guessing it would be smart to do the same and just try 2.0 tonight, instead of the 2.4 I've been doing...?
     
  83. Rachel

    Rachel Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2013
    I think that was a good choice! Curious where the brings Pita today!
     
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  84. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2015
    I think that was a good choice as well, and I'm wondering about shaving a little more off the regular dose. Maybe try 2.2 or 2.3 if he gives you reasonable AMPS?

    Sorry I wasn't around last night. 9:48pm is a little late for me on a school night ;)
     
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  85. Caitlin M

    Caitlin M Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2017
    Thanks ladies! 117 AMPS so I'll give 2.2 and see where we go.
     
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  86. Caitlin M

    Caitlin M Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2017
    149 PMPS last night, gave 2.2u. Had a 128 AMPS this morning, which makes me think he may have gone into the low green/high line green. Just me basing it off of his midday numbers the past couple days with a higher PS to start with. Going to give 2.0u this am and see how that does.
     
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  87. Caitlin M

    Caitlin M Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2017
    Happy Friday everyone! Higher AMPS this morning-198. He was a little more active last night and seemed very hungry because he woke me up twice for a snack. Had Matt give him 2 units and I'll test while I'm home between work. If he doesn't go too low today I'm going to hump back up to 2.2 units. I don't like this upper 100's!!
     
  88. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2015
    Looks like the 2u did okay today, but was pretty late to kick in. Any chance of getting some PM cycle numbers this weekend? It's hard to say if the higher PS numbers are a bounce or from insufficient insulin. Or just one of those things.
     
  89. Caitlin M

    Caitlin M Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2017
    Yes I'll definitely get more midday numbers this weekend. Yeah, I'm not too happy with the later nadir and such. Thoughts on just bumping back to 2.2 tonight?
     
  90. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2015
    Maybe 2.1? I can't remember - does Pita run lower at night? 2.2 was giving you some pretty low daytime nadirs.
     
  91. Caitlin M

    Caitlin M Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2017
    Lol 2.1 would suck to find on the needle! If anything he runs higher overnight.
     
  92. Caitlin M

    Caitlin M Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2017
    140 PMPS! Was able to patiently get what I believe is 2.1 units also.
     
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  93. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2015
    Lol...it is funny how much of a difference a drop or too can make. If that's too hard to eyeball though, you could stick with 2.2 until you see a lime green, or until you are needing to steer to keep him away from one. An overnight low was just a guess, and if he runs higher and night, that probably wasn't the problem.
     
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  94. Caitlin M

    Caitlin M Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2017
    107 AMPS. Going to give 2.1 again and test throughout the day!
     
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  95. Rachel

    Rachel Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2013
    Now THAT'S more what we're talking about Pita!
     
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  96. Caitlin M

    Caitlin M Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2017
    82 @ +3.75
     
  97. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2015
    That 107 to 82 was a very Lantus-like cycle. Nice and flat and low. Hope you're surviving the loss of an hour's sleep! :coffee::coffee::coffee:
     

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