PMPS 455 +4 55 +4.25 67 +4.5 68 +5 75 +6 94

Discussion in 'Feline Health - (Welcome & Main Forum)' started by Momos_Mama, Sep 15, 2016.

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  1. Momos_Mama

    Momos_Mama New Member

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    Sep 8, 2016
    Hello! I just brought home a bottle of insulin for the 1st time. My kitty Mo was diagnosed last Thursday and we immediately switched food (the next day his reading was down 300 points!) and put off insulin until we could find an affordable place to do a glucose curve. Today we took Mo in for his glucose curve and I was shocked when the tech advised me to start him on 5 units of Prozinc twice a day and stop home blood testing because he will get mean. My goal is remission! He's young and otherwise healthy. If he went into remission I'd overdose him with that advice. I needed to get this off my chest. I have just printed the understanding the spreadsheet, glossary of terms, faq etc and will be up half the night trying to digest all this. I only have until 6 am tomorrow morning to decide if I should give him another 5 units. That is my dilemma. I appreciate any advice!
     
  2. Sharon14

    Sharon14 Well-Known Member

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    Aug 16, 2015
    5 units is an extremely large starting dose. Are you home testing? It will not make your kitty mean, and could save his life! Did you give 5 units tonight, and if so how long ago? @Sue and Oliver (GA) is our ProZinc guru, and can help you understand how it works.
     
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  3. Chris & China (GA)

    Chris & China (GA) Well-Known Member

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    May 10, 2013
    First, the GA means your kitty has crossed over....it means "Gone Ahead" or "Guardian Angel"....when we see that prefix, our hearts sink

    5 units is crazy high for a starting dose and your vet is crazy for suggesting that home testing will make your cat mean....We find the exact opposite is true....the bond between you grows stronger than you could ever imagine it being!!

    We all think we love our cats as much as possible....wait until you've been doing the sugardance awhile and you'll find a whole new meaning of the word "love"!!

    You can totally trust the people here to help you with dosing.....there's no big reason you have to go back to your vet or explain what you're doing to him/her when it comes to this disease anyway. My own cat hasn't been to the vet since I first got my script for Lantus...If she goes to the vet, I tell them she's on X units of insulin and her blood glucose is running from X to Y and that's it....If the vet feels like she has to add something, I nod my head and smile and maybe say "I'll have to consider that" and leave....and continue to do what I know works for every other person here!!

    If your vet gets upset by you taking control, you probably need to just find another vet that's willing to work WITH you and not dictate TO you
     
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  4. Sue and Oliver (GA)

    Sue and Oliver (GA) Well-Known Member

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    Dec 28, 2009
    Did you give insulin? Do you have a meter and can you get a blood glucose level? I am very concerned that 5 units is a very high dose (we suggest starting at one unit) and it is possible he will drop too low.
     
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  5. Erica & Carter

    Erica & Carter Well-Known Member

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    Apr 5, 2016
    This is my cat being really mean when I am home-testing him. :p He is usually non-stop purring, even falls asleep some of the time. Of course every cat is different, but saying home-testing will make them mean implies that you're doing harm to your cat - which is the opposite of true, it's helping keep them safe and healthy.

    I agree that starting dose is outrageously high, but I have no experience with Prozinc. image.jpeg
     
  6. Momos_Mama

    Momos_Mama New Member

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    Sep 8, 2016
    I am so sorry! I thought General Advice =( I have a pile of papers I'm going through to learn all this. Thank you for the response!
     
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  7. Momos_Mama

    Momos_Mama New Member

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    Sep 8, 2016
    They had me give him 5 units to show I could give the injection. I asked about such a high starting dose and she said that this insulin is different and it has a higher starting dose. That is not what I'm reading on the boards though. I do have the relion but I cant get any blood out of his ear tonight. I am so worried about his glucose getting to low that I put out some extra food for him. He seems to be acting normal and its been almost 3 hours since the injection.
     
  8. Chris & China (GA)

    Chris & China (GA) Well-Known Member

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    May 10, 2013
    That's OK....some people think it means they live in Georgia!!

    Just go over to the right side of your first post and find "Thread Tools"....you can edit your subject line by choosing "No prefix" or if you have a question, use the ? icon
     
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  9. Anitafrnhamer

    Anitafrnhamer Member

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    Jul 9, 2013
    If I had followed veterinary advice, Squeaker would have been dead a couple of years before he did. Because I didn't follow the "orders" I was able to keep him alive for an additional 30 months.
     
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  10. Callie & Patches

    Callie & Patches Well-Known Member

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    Jun 18, 2016
    I use Vetsulin, similar to Prozinc. I would never give that much to start. I don't follow everything my vet reccomends. With all I have learned here, the vet tech says I know more about FD then the vets do. I have more time to go online then they do.
     
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  11. Sharon14

    Sharon14 Well-Known Member

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    Aug 16, 2015
    How long ago was the shot? Do you have a meter? Can you get a test?
     
  12. Sue and Oliver (GA)

    Sue and Oliver (GA) Well-Known Member

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    Dec 28, 2009
    Usually the lowest point in the cycle is 5-7 hours after the shot. I would definitely keep an eye on him - watch for unusual behavior, loud meowing, acting like he is having trouble seeing, sleeping and not waking up or seizures. Not to scare you, but better safe than sorry.

    ProZinc has the same starting dose recommendation as every other insulin - most often one unit. Here is the info from their package.
    http://www.prozinc.us/content/dam/internet/ah/prozinc/us_EN/documents/ProZinc_Product_Info.pdf
     
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  13. Momos_Mama

    Momos_Mama New Member

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    Sep 8, 2016
    Thank you for responding! I am trying to home test. I try both ears once before giving up in hopes he won't get too upset. He is officially flinching and trying to get away when I poke him. I always set down a dish of tuna which he goes to town on while I poke and prod. The Tech had me give 5 units in front of her about 3 hours ago and he had been acting normal. I was really worried about the amount so I put down extra food for him. I have no idea if that was a good idea or not. Thank you for the info.
     
  14. Sue and Oliver (GA)

    Sue and Oliver (GA) Well-Known Member

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    Dec 28, 2009
    Yes, extra food may keep his level higher.

    One of the most important parts of home testing is heating the ear. Put some raw rice in a sock, knot it and heat in microwave until very warm. Hold it next to his ear for a minute or so. You are trying to get the blood moving through capillaries, plumping them up,
     
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  15. Sharon14

    Sharon14 Well-Known Member

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    Aug 16, 2015
    Make sure the ear is warm, I just vigorously rub my cats ear, then poke the 'sweet spot' between the vein and the edge of the ear.
    [​IMG]
     
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  16. Momos_Mama

    Momos_Mama New Member

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    Sep 8, 2016
    Thank you for that. How adorable =) I have only had 2 successful jabs since this started last week. Momo loves to lay out on our super cold balcony and be cold. I am trying out each idea I come across.
     
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  17. Momos_Mama

    Momos_Mama New Member

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    Sep 8, 2016
    Love that idea! Tonight I tried the warm water in an old pill bottle idea but no success. It will happen eventually. Do think 2 pokes is too soon to give up?
     
  18. Callie & Patches

    Callie & Patches Well-Known Member

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    Jun 18, 2016
    I would set an alarm so you can check on him every so often. I think with Prozinc his BG will be the lowest around 5-7 hours after his shot. We have a "sticky" labeled "Hypos, they can kill." I'm not technical enough to make a link on my phone. I will leave a post on the Prozinc Forum.
     
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  19. Momos_Mama

    Momos_Mama New Member

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    Oh thank you so much. I appreciate the links in your signature as well!
     
  20. Callie & Patches

    Callie & Patches Well-Known Member

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    Jun 18, 2016
    I posted for help in Prozinc forum. You can check it out.
     
  21. Sharon14

    Sharon14 Well-Known Member

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    Aug 16, 2015
    I would try the testing again. If he'll let you, rub his ear vigorously and poke once or twice in the same spot, then milk the ear by rubbing from the base to the poke spot. The sweet spot is very near the edge of the ear. If you can make a rice sock like Sue suggested, that will help too.
     
  22. Daphne

    Daphne Member

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    Sep 4, 2015
    I've been doing my cat's blood glucose testing for over a year, and I'll still not get enough blood (or even no blood at at all!) if I fail to warm the ear first. It makes a huge difference! I use a sock filled with rice, but a baggie filled with warm water would probably work better than a pill bottle since the baggie will form to the area. Just be sure to test the temperature on yourself so you don't burn your kitty. Take your time to thoroughly warm the ear.

    You can also apply a very small amount of plain petroleum jelly to the ear before testing. This helps promote healing and it helps the blood form into a nice bead for you to collect with the testing strip. Emphasis on just a little, you don't want a super greasy ear. :p

    Try not to poke the exact same spot each time.

    I fold a piece of toilet paper into thirds and place it behind his ear. Making sure the skin is taught by sandwiching it firmly (firmly, but not painfully firm!) between the lancing device and the toilet paper makes for a good poke.

    I used a few different lancing devices and lancets and found the Accu-Chek Softclix was the least painful to use. Your kitty may be more cooperative if you try this lancing device.

    Teaching your cat to come and sit on a special mat or pillow can be helpful as well. If you need him at a better angle, you can just spin the pillow around instead of trying to get him to move exactly how you want. I'm reading a cat training book titled "Naughty No More!" by Marilyn Krieger and one of the first activities is training your cat to come to a specific spot.

    After a poke, even if it's unsuccessful, be sure to lavish him with reward! You want this testing experience to be followed by a clear reward to form a positive association, otherwise he has no reason to cooperate.

    In the beginning, I would not poke my cat's ear more than 3 times in one attempt. I would space my attempts half an hour apart and switch ears between attempts.
     
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  23. Momos_Mama

    Momos_Mama New Member

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    Sep 8, 2016
    You guys were right! His reading is 55 right now! I skipped right to karo syrup and filling his food bowl with dry food. He is eating merrily like nothing is happening.
     
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  24. Callie & Patches

    Callie & Patches Well-Known Member

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    Jun 18, 2016
    keep watching him and checking every 20minutes. put on a pot of coffee, it's going to be a long night. Someone will stay with you until he is safe. It is better to start a new thread. use the 911 option and in upper case type "HYPO KITTY " . Help will continue running.
     
  25. Daphne

    Daphne Member

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    Sep 4, 2015
    Phew, I'm so happy you got his blood glucose reading! Great work! :bighug:

    I know getting the reading is incredibly frustrating and disheartening at first, but it really does get faster and easier with time. It will get better.

    My vet was pretty good about my cat's diabetes, but I learned more here than I did from my vet. The protocols outlined on the forums here are very likely your best and most accurate resource for treating your cat's diabetes. If you're not happy with your experience at the vet or the vet's advice, you would not be the first person to switch vets over such issues.

    Remember, when your vet suggests a treatment, it is only a suggestion. You can say no. If you don't understand why they're recommending a specific treatment or advising against something, ask them why. "What calculation did you use to determine 5 units is the correct starting dose?" "I don't feel comfortable starting with 5 units; is there a more conservative dose to start with?"
     
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  26. Sharon14

    Sharon14 Well-Known Member

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    Aug 16, 2015
    Great that you got that test! Check again in 20 min. to make sure he's not dropping any further.
     
  27. Sharon14

    Sharon14 Well-Known Member

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    Aug 16, 2015
    Are you using a human meter or a pet meter?
     
  28. Momos_Mama

    Momos_Mama New Member

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    Sep 8, 2016
    human. Its the relion prime. I just took another test and it's 67. Phew!
     
  29. Chris & China (GA)

    Chris & China (GA) Well-Known Member

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    May 10, 2013
    That's better but you're not out of the woods yet...You want to test again in 30 minutes and IF he's still going up, you'll want to get at least more test an hour later to make sure he doesn't come back down

    We don't usually like using dry food in these kinds of cases because it takes too long to get into the bloodstream and then too long to get back out again, but in this case, it's probably a good thing!

    It will help if you'll edit your subject line again and put the PMPS (the test you got right before feeding shooting tonight....it's the PM Pre-Shot) and then keep us informed of the tests you get as you go along

    We use the same system so everyone understands, so you'd then use + and however long it's been since the last shot

    I don't know if you got a test before you shot tonight....If you did, put PMPS ###, + ? (how long since the shot? 2 hours would be +2, 3 hours would be +3, and so on)

    An example would be PMPS 385, +3 55.....and keep that subject line updated with the latest numbers so people can quickly scan the board watching out for everyone

    If you didn't get a test before the shot tonight, just put "No PMPS but only 2nd shot @5 units, +3 55, +3.5 67

    Since I don't know what time you shot tonight, or how long it's been since that shot, those are just examples. You'd have to put your own numbers in
     
  30. Callie & Patches

    Callie & Patches Well-Known Member

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    Jun 18, 2016
    How are you a.d Mamos doing. The sugar won't keep Mamos BG up for long. You will need to check his BS often to make sure it stays up. Do you have any higher carb canned food? Wet food is absorb!ed faster then dry.
    One of us will stay with you tell Mamos is out of the woods. I remember how scared I was when Callie's BG dropped low and how mu h I appreciated the people who sat up with me till 3 AM. Where do you live, what time is it. It's 10:27 here. Good thing I'm a night owl.
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2016
  31. Chris & China (GA)

    Chris & China (GA) Well-Known Member

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    May 10, 2013
    Thanks for updating your subject line....that will make it easier for everyone to keep track of you guys

    You'll want to test again at +5

    In the future, we usually recommend keeping something like Fancy Feast Gravy Lovers around as well as Karo, honey or syrup

    What most of us do is pop the top, put it back and "squeeze" the gravy into another bowl and give a couple of teaspoons of just the gravy (that's where most of the carbs are anyway). It works faster than dry food without the problem of having to wait for the dry to work it's way out of his system again

    You're doing great tonight, but under no circumstances should you shoot more than 1 unit in the morning, no matter how high he goes

    The important thing to ask yourself is "How low is this dose taking him"? without worrying so much about how high he starts at...the Pre-shot tests are mostly just to make sure they're high enough for insulin at all

    If you left the dry down, I'd take it up. You don't want him eating so much that he makes himself sick because his body is telling him he needs to eat (most cats when they go low will look for food)
     
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  32. Callie & Patches

    Callie & Patches Well-Known Member

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    Jun 18, 2016
    Are you and Oliver doing ok?
     
  33. Momos_Mama

    Momos_Mama New Member

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    Sep 8, 2016
    Oh thank you so much. I'm in the same time zone! I haven't been able to sleep very well since the diagnosis so I'm kinda scatterbrained + emotional right now. This handsome fella is Momo. I don't have a higher carb food besides the dry right now and he gorged on that, which I also put karo on. Now he is snoozing but purring. Our last test took 3 jabs and he was desperate to get away. Time for the next one =(
     
  34. Momos_Mama

    Momos_Mama New Member

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    Sep 8, 2016
    Okay my husband is up helping me and we succesfully got blood on the 1st jab this time. He had the monitor right there, it was great. But the reading was up only 1 point to 68. That can't be good.
     
  35. Momos_Mama

    Momos_Mama New Member

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    Sep 8, 2016
    Thank you for all this help. This is a wonderful place and I really appreciate it.
     
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  36. Callie & Patches

    Callie & Patches Well-Known Member

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    Jun 18, 2016
    If he struggles during testing, wrap him up in a large towel like a kitty burrito. I'm sorry that I got your names mixed up. Dont have my brain in the right place.
     
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  37. Momos_Mama

    Momos_Mama New Member

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    Sep 8, 2016
    Thank you we will give that a try!
     
  38. Callie & Patches

    Callie & Patches Well-Known Member

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    Jun 18, 2016
    If his numbers go down, give him more honey or Karo. Rub it on his gums, it's absorbed faster then eating or drinking it.
     
  39. Daphne

    Daphne Member

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    Sep 4, 2015
    Glucose meters are allowed to be up to 20% inaccurate. It gives you one number, but that number represents a range of values +/- 20% of that number.

    55 could be any number between 44 to 66
    67 ... 54 to 80
    68 ... 54 to 82

    If the ranges overlap, it's considered the same reading. Still record the number that you got from the meter as it was read, but understand he's been holding steady rather than increasing.

    I learned about this from user BJM's google doc here under the section "Glucometer Notes."
     
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  40. Chris & China (GA)

    Chris & China (GA) Well-Known Member

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    May 10, 2013
    At least he didn't drop anymore

    It can take a little while for the dry food to break down enough to effect the BG number....give him 30 minutes and test again
     
  41. Chris & China (GA)

    Chris & China (GA) Well-Known Member

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    May 10, 2013
    As long as he's above 50 and not showing any signs of distress, try not to worry too much.

    50 on a human meter is our "take action" point....non-diabetic cats can have normal BG's in the mid-high 30's, so setting our "take action" point at 50 gives a little bit of a cushion

    ECID though (Every Cat Is Different) but if he didn't show any symptoms of hypo at 55, I'd say he runs about normal for most kitties around here
     
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  42. Callie & Patches

    Callie & Patches Well-Known Member

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    Jun 18, 2016
    Good for you and hubby. Tomorrow Mamos's BG will probably be high and may bounce from high to low for a few days, Don't give more then 1u until someone from the Prozinc forum can advise you.
    Whatever you do, if his BG is under 200, don't give any insulin. It's better to be too high then too low.
     
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  43. Momos_Mama

    Momos_Mama New Member

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    Sep 8, 2016
    aye yi yi I'm sorry I didn't see this sooner.
     
  44. Chris & China (GA)

    Chris & China (GA) Well-Known Member

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    May 10, 2013
    No worries now.....the 911 is good to use until you have someone watching over you....then you remove it and go back to regular posting so that IF something else comes up, you can put it back up if you need to
     
  45. Callie & Patches

    Callie & Patches Well-Known Member

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    Jun 18, 2016
    That's OK, people have found you anyway. Where on the West coast do you live? I live about 100 miles north of Sacramento.
     
  46. Momos_Mama

    Momos_Mama New Member

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    Sep 8, 2016
    I'm in Spokane, Washington. We are getting ready to move to SW Oregon next month.
     
  47. Callie & Patches

    Callie & Patches Well-Known Member

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    Jun 18, 2016
    I went to do Callie's bedtime test. She was sitting on her card table waiting for me. She knows she will get a treat or a brushing. She loves that. She usually purrs the whole time.
     
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  48. Callie & Patches

    Callie & Patches Well-Known Member

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    Jun 18, 2016
    That is such a beautiful place. My son used to live in Bend,
    Oregon.
     
  49. Momos_Mama

    Momos_Mama New Member

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    Sep 8, 2016
    Yes I agree it is beautiful there. I love the Oregon Coast beaches and lighthouses. We are finally moving into a house with a yard for our dog =)
     
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  50. Chris & China (GA)

    Chris & China (GA) Well-Known Member

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    May 10, 2013
    Time for that next test @Momos_Mama (what's your name?)
     
  51. Callie & Patches

    Callie & Patches Well-Known Member

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    Jun 18, 2016
    We have 5 acers but no fencing. We have to find somone to build one. We inherited my mom's 2 dogs and they like to run and play.
     
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  52. Momos_Mama

    Momos_Mama New Member

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    Sep 8, 2016
    Thank you I just updated it. It was 94. I'm getting really sleepy now.
     
  53. Chris & China (GA)

    Chris & China (GA) Well-Known Member

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    May 10, 2013
    I think you can probably get to sleep...if he hasn't had anything else to eat since the Karo/kibble, he has come up and should continue up

    If you wanted to, you could set an alarm and get an hour or 90 minutes sleep and get one more test in later if you really worry, but I think he's probably safe now
     
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  54. Momos_Mama

    Momos_Mama New Member

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    Sep 8, 2016
    My name is Tara.
     
  55. Momos_Mama

    Momos_Mama New Member

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    Sep 8, 2016
    I'm so happy to hear that. Goodnight everyone!
     
  56. Chris & China (GA)

    Chris & China (GA) Well-Known Member

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    May 10, 2013
    Welcome to the FDMB Tara!!! Nothing like a trial by fire for your first time but you did great!!

    You probably see most of us have information under our comments in our signature box (like where you have Momo's spreadsheet...great that you've got that going!!)

    When you have a minute, it'd be good for you to go ahead and fill out your signature. We usually like to see stuff like Your name/cats name, age, sex, date of diagnosis, type of insulin, type of meter, type of food, any other health issues? and maybe a general idea of where you live.

    It keeps us from having to ask the same questions over and over again!

    I'm going to have to head out for tonight (its after 2am here) but there are others coming online at all times so you're never alone

    Great job again tonight keeping Momo safe!!
     
  57. Callie & Patches

    Callie & Patches Well-Known Member

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    Jun 18, 2016
    What pretty name. get some sleep. Do you have to get up early?
     
  58. Sharon14

    Sharon14 Well-Known Member

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  59. Momos_Mama

    Momos_Mama New Member

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    Sep 8, 2016
    Thank you so much! This mornings reading was 110 so I didn't give him any insulin. Momo was a little frustrated at how many pokes it took to get blood but he happily munched on breakfast.
     
  60. Misterbeesmom

    Misterbeesmom Well-Known Member

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    Apr 25, 2016
    I know others have already said it but i'll say it anyways. 5 units is a huge starting dose. we just started the bovine version of PZI last night and our starting dose was 1. LOL. it didn't do much of anything, but that's why a good vet will start low. until we know how kitty responds, its risky starting off with high dose.

    i recommend you switch vets if this is how they run their diabetic care.

    glad things are ok now!
     
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  61. Misterbeesmom

    Misterbeesmom Well-Known Member

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    Apr 25, 2016
    and btw that pic of your cat -! LOL! too cute!! what a blob
     
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  62. Misterbeesmom

    Misterbeesmom Well-Known Member

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    Apr 25, 2016
    I didn't know either that GA meant that. I thought it was general advice!! whew.

    I like how you handle your vet visits ;)
     
  63. Sue and Oliver (GA)

    Sue and Oliver (GA) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2009
    Congratulations on making it through your first hypo! You and Momo did great. I'd give today to rest and see what his numbers look like. Going forward, we recommend new diabetics not get a shot under 200. I suggest you post in the afternoon on the ProZinc forum, get a test and some advice about a possible dose. 5 units is clearly too high. You'll want to reduce, the question is how much.

    The ProZinc forum is here:

    http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/forums/prozinc-pzi.24/

    There are two documents about using ProZinc in my signature in blue.
     
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  64. Momos_Mama

    Momos_Mama New Member

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    Sep 8, 2016
    Thank you that was 5 pounds ago!
     
  65. Callie & Patches

    Callie & Patches Well-Known Member

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    Jun 18, 2016
    You and Momo did so well last night. It had to be so hard to learn so much about testing while under so much stress.

    I would call the vet and say that he and the almost killed your cat. Maybe you can educate him so he doesn't do this to another cat.
     
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  66. Squalliesmom

    Squalliesmom Well-Known Member

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    Jun 26, 2015
    Tara, you did a great job last night, talk about trial by fire, whew!!! You've had a crash course, lol. :cool: Glad that Momo is doing well and that you are persevering with the testing. It'll get easier, I promise! :bighug:
     
  67. Momos_Mama

    Momos_Mama New Member

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    Sep 8, 2016
    Thank you all so much. I called my Mom and Dad this morning and told them all about what happened and what an amazing support group I found that educated me so politely when I was losing my cool.
    I left a polite message for the vet when they opened this morning. They just called me back and the tech wants me to bring him back in for monitoring and insulin adjusting but I said "No thank you. His last reading was 110, I didn't give him any insulin this morning. I'll monitor him." as politely as possible and she seemed to politely disagree with my decision which I'm ok with.
    I am feeling a little raw and manic today from so little sleep but it's Friday!
    Mo is being Mo =)
     
  68. Critter Mom

    Critter Mom Well-Known Member

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    Jun 16, 2014
    Hi, Tara.

    Your instincts are wonderful and Momo is blessed to have you as his mama. A starting dose of 5IU is - frankly - NUTS!!! :mad: I'm so glad that you found FDMB and got the help you needed. :)

    Brilliant job mastering BG testing under such stressful and scary circumstances; you played an absolute blinder! :)

    :bighug:


    Mogs
    .
     
  69. Elizabeth and Bertie

    Elizabeth and Bertie Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2010
    Seconding everything that Mogs said! :bighug::bighug::bighug:
    .
     
    Tuxedo Mom and Critter Mom like this.
  70. Callie & Patches

    Callie & Patches Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2016
    You were great. Some of the members who have been here a long time couldn't do better.
     
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