Remi poorly update 04/13-back on the steroids

Remi has suddenly been poorly for the last two weeks. He came off lantus just before Xmas and has been doing really well. Then two weeks ago he suddenly started to throw up in the morning, had a little diarrhoea and had a brief day where he seemed to have cystitis.

He then seemed to recover but since then has had the occasional morning throw up and his tummy has bed really gassy. He had tests at the vet and we initially thought that it was SIBO and a panc flair. Then the results indicated that proximal small intestine issues as he has low folate levels (in addition to high pancreatitis, high ALT, high urea and creatinine and slightly high globular protein and slightly high total protein. ) remi was given the antibiotic metrozidonale for the tummy issues.

He has been on kaminox for low potassium since his diabetes diagnosis and so this was in the normal range however after starting the anti biotic his tummy was still full of gas, and making him burp and so the vet and I decided that maybe the kaminox was irritating it and to stop and see what happens. His tummy improved straight away but his energy levels and appetite dropped off after a day or two. A retest today showed that his potassium levels have dropped to 3.3 and so this time we are going to try tumil k as it doesn't have the added vitamins and minerals such as iron which I was worried was adding to his issues. He has also had a stool sample sent off today to test for parasites and bacterial infection as he had more diarrhoea.

So to my question. He has hardly easten tonight after his vet visit. He isn't in pain and seems happy enough. A few days ago I upped his Ondansetron dosage and so I don't think it is nausea that is stopping him eating. His appetite is just diminished. The tumil k won't arrive until Wednesday and I am wondering if I should just give him a little kaminox to kick start his appetite again but want to get some food in him. The best thing I have used before at times like this is the royal canin instant support but it must bef very high carb? Can someone tell me how high carb this is?

http://about.royalcanin.co.uk/catalogue/canine-veterinary-diet/convalescence-support-dogscats23712/

If it is high carb would it matter for a day or two just to kick start his eating and allow me to put a tiny amount of potassium supplement in it? Is it likely to ring him out of remission?

He has triaditis and so I can't change around his food too much but I know he will accept this.

 

They don't make the nutritional values easy to read on that food, that's for sure! If nothing else, I'd say looking at the starch % of 18.6, that would be the minimum carb level you could expect to actually have as an 'as fed' value out of the food. They seem to be including some things more than once - they're listing fibre and dietary fibre, then starch - all of those are sort of the same thing!!

I'd have said it's better to have him eat something that nothing even if it isn't an ideal food especially if he's not eating enough at the moment. I'm not sure whether a day or two would be enough to bring him out of remission - I guess that depends on the individual cat, but if it did it might be temporary until you were able to get him back on his regular food. Did your vet have any opinion on that? BUT that RC food does have a 24% fat content - is that going to affect his pancreatitis? Sorry, pancreatitis isn't something any of ours have had so I'm not sure how the fat content in food affects it in cats.

The Tumil K works fine for our CKD kitty, Shadow. She's been on it every day for about 3 years now and doesn't seem to have any problems from it at all. If you get the pills, you will want to syringe just a bit of water into him afterwards to make sure the pill goes all the way down. If it's the powder, you should be fine just adding it to his food. There has been a supply issue with Tumil K recently - it may be resolved now, but if you find you can't get hold of it at any point, I checked with our vet and the reasonable alternative is called RenaKare. Our vet said they can't order that for us, but they would be prepared to call in a prescription to one of the online places if we needed them to.

The concern I would have is that metronidazole lists stomach problem, diarrhea and an unpleasant taste in the mouth as side effects - not something you want Remi to be dealing with if he's already nauseous. I'm not sure if there is a reasonable alternative, but it might be worth asking the vet if there's anything different you could try if his symptoms don't seem to be improving.

I'm really not sure what to think about the kaminox. It's possible the iron might not be helping him if he's not feeling great already, but then the low potassium won't be helping him either. Hopefully someone who's dealt with something similar will be able to offer more information on whether to try him with a little of that or not.

Hugs for you and scritches for Remi for having to deal with this - I really hope he's feeling better soon!

 

Sorry to hear Remi is not feeling well.....When you say he throws up in the morning, is it white foamy vomit or clear yellow(bile) I notice the higher creatine (which can make him feel crappy as can low potassium) and was wondering? Were probiotics given to help replace lost good bacteria lost form the Metronidiazole? Was also wondering if Cypro was in place for his appetite? I would call your vet RE: the Tumil K, electrolytes balance is tricky!

You could check his BG if you feed him that food? I'm not familiar with that particular food, but if he was mine, I would be inclined to feed whatever he will eat at this point. My Tiger will usually eat baby food when all else fails, BeechNut Chicken with Broth and Turkey with Broth are favorites. Fingers and paws crossed for some answers in the stool culture!

 

Thanks you two for replying. I gave him some of the sachet and he ate it happily.

April- those were my thoughts re the metrozidonale. His last dose was this morning as the vet said that if it was going to help the situation it would have done by now. I am hoping that will help the diarrhoea. At first it did seem to help in that regard but I think as his appetite diminished it irritated it more.

I also agree about the iron in the kaminox and hence the reason for the switch over. Again the vet thought that maybe a lower dose might be okay as he was fine on it before. I am just thinking that it might help to give it just a tiny amount for the next day or two until the tumil k arrived just to try to being back his appetite but it does make me nervous. I think I will just add a tiny drop tonight to see if it helps.

Ruth- yes in the morning, just bile. It has got better since I switched to giving him his Zantac in the late evening instead of at tea time so I agree with you it could be a kidney thing. The odd thing about it all is the sudden turn of events from being good to having tummy issues. I can't help but think something set it off and in a way I am sort of hoping they find a bacteria in his stool sample.

I bought probiotics but then read on Tayna's website about them being possibly bad for cats with pancreatitis. So haven't given them. I think if the tumil k doesn't. Help with the appetite I will speak to the vet about a stimulant. I think I have some here somewhere from before.

Thanks for replying it is so great to know you aren't alone. I am off to test his blood Glucose and maybe add a drop of kaminox.

 

I just tested his blood glucose and it is 99 about 30 minutes after having some food. So hopefully giving him some more should be okay.

April Re the food- I got him through his last panc flair by giving him this food so am hoping that it will okay for him for now but yes otherwise I would be worried about the fat levels (although interestingly apparently fat isn't meant to be implicated in feline pancreatitis )

 

I think on balance, a really small dose of kaminox so he gets hopefully enough potassium to stop him dropping any further but not enough iron from it to make his tummy problems worse is probably a good ideal until you get the tumil k through. It's such a tricky call because lack of potassium could be making him feel bad too.

Looking good on the glucose I'd imagine you might have to test him a couple of times a day while he's on the higher carb food, but I doubt it would bring him out of remission permanently if it's just for a few days - and he needs to eat to have the strength to start feeling better! I've never given baby food to a cat but @Tiger and Ruth's suggestion of trying that might be worthwhile if you think he needs something a little extra.

That is interesting information - I know fat is meant to be bad for pancreatitis in people (my grandfather had it once) and I had no idea that it doesn't usually affect cats the same way. I'd have thought if he was good with it the last time and you know he's likely to eat it, it should be a good option for now to get him feeling better.

 

@manxcat419 April, the weird thing is, my Tiger has chronic pancreatitis as well, but the response to higher fat food is definitely an ECID thing-she eats only Wellness Core and it is relatively high fat, but it doesn't seem to bother her one bit.

 

Zantac works great too and it has the plus of helping the gut motility! Fingers and paws crossed for something that tells you what is going on with Remi and you are not alone BTW! We have multi-issue cats and it gets really complicated. I noticed you said Remi belches? I just discovered this in Tiger as well, not I am suspicious of something IBD related. D0es Remi like Forta Flora at all? It may not be the best probiotic, but it adds appeal to the food when you sprinkle it on. I have not noticed it bothering Tiger and she has chronic pancreatitis as well. Healing vines for Remi

 

It really is fascinating how different they all are and how they handle food and everything else differently! It's no wonder really that so much of what we do to try and help them finishes up being trial and error - and it feels like a real achievement when you find the things that work specifically for your cat, whether it's what works for anyone else or not. I haven't tried the Wellness foods at all - I'd like to at some point at least for a little variety for them but with 6 cats in the house the price of anything like that stacks up really quickly especially when 4 of the 6 have no special dietary requirements (apart from the ones I've imposed on Regan to stop her finishing up like Rosa just in case the diabetes is genetic for them). So unless we hit a real problem with one of them, it's Friskies pates at the moment as they seem to do fine on those and it keeps the costs down just a bit!

 

@manxcat419 I hear you on the 6 cats,well, I only had 3 cats at one time, but still, it gets pricey. There is an advantage to being an only child What I want to do is to try Tiger on raw foods, as Dr. Lisa Pierson suggests, but I just know I will go through all that work and she won't eat it!

 

In theory only 4 of the 6 cats eat the wet food (I keep being assured by our housemate that his 2 hate wet food, but then I keep finding them with their heads in the bowl anyway)!! I think raw food would be the very best, but I agree it's a lot more work and there's no way she could possibly be so obliging as to appreciate the work by actually eating the food! I am tempted to try adding at least some raw over the next few weeks while I'm off work and will have the time to put into getting it right, but whether or not I'll actually manage to get them to eat it is another story - I did try raw food with them once when I had ferrets (which pretty much have to have some raw in their diet) - the cats always wanted some and would follow me around begging for it, but then played with it instead of eating it.

 

Sarah,

Saoirse has had similar issues since becoming diet-controlled. Lisa (Tisha's Person) found that Tisha's pancreatitis flared up when she was trying to take her off insulin. I've already spoken to our vets about possibly reinstating token doses of insulin with Saoirse but the idea hasn't got traction with them. Yet...

Saoirse was really healthy at Christmas. Her body and coat condition have been gradually deteriorating since then (and her abdominal distension is back again). I'm really beginning to consider short courses of microdoses of Lantus with very close monitoring as a possible maintenance treatment for her pancreatitis. What I do know for a fact is that I had a much healthier cat in December. (Sorry I can't write more at this time. I'm shattered.)

 

Sarah,

Re the RC convalescence support, just had a look at the link you posted and noticed that the first ingredient is 'milk proteins'. Is it right that Remi is intolerant to milk? (Though it seems that Remi has tolerated this food in the past, so I may well be mixing you up with someone else, sorry...)
Re the carb content, that seems to come out at 16.6 % calories from carbs.

I actually found this product really helpful when I had two very sick kitties a while back, and sincerely hope that it is suitable for Remi also.

I think you'd be very unlucky indeed if a few meals of this knocked Remi out of remission. But the immediate need is that Remi eats and gets well, whatever the effect on his BG. (And if it does happen that Remi comes out of remission, well, having to give insulin isn't the end of the world... )

Sending 'swift recovery' vibes to Remi.

And take very good care of yourself too, Sarah.

Eliz

 

Hi everyone. Remi perked up after the royal canin and even ate about 20g of his normal food. I think once you stimulate his tummy he remembers to eat plus perhaps the electrolytes added to the royal canin helped. I didn't try the kaminox yet.

So my plan this morning is to test his blood and then put down his normal food on a nice warm plate and if he doesn't eat it go back to the royal canin. At some point this morning I might try just a smidgen of kaminox but before that I will phone the other branches of my vets and see if they have tumil k in stock.

Re the fat in food remi does usually react but that could well be his liver problems rather than the pancreatitis. I think that is why it is such a hard disease to get to grips with because potentially you might have a few co existing conditions. I still try to keep fat low in his diet.

I have tried fortiflora before but this time I bought these mercola ones but still too worried to try them because of the caution on Tayna's site
http://probiotics.mercola.com/probiotics-for-pets.html

Caution
One study into humans with severe acute pancreatitis, Probiotic prophylaxis in predicted severe acute pancreatitis: a randomised double-blind placebo-controlled trial(2008) Besselink MGH, van Santvoort HC, Buskens E, Boermeester MA, van Goor H, Timmerman HM, Nieuwenhuijs VB, Bollen TL, van Ramshorst B, Witteman BJM, Rosman C, Ploeg RJ, Brink MA, Schaapherder AFM, Dejong CHC, Wahab PJ, van Laarhoven CJHM, van der Harst E, van Eijck CHJ, Cuesta MA, Akkermans LMA, Gooszen HG The Lancet 371(9613) pp651 - 659, found that using probiotics more than doubled the risk of death. The same may not apply to cats but I would not take the risk. If you are using probiotics, therefore, I would speak urgently to your vet about stopping them.
http://www.felinecrf.org/pancreatitis.htm

Aine -sorry to hear about Saoirse. If she is like remi there is no apparent rhyme or reason for these periods of good and bad health and the test results don't seem to correspond to what you are seeing in front of you. I will definitely keep an eye on his glucose levels.

 

Hi Elizabeth

It's grains and some protein that he seems to have issues with but realistically I have no real idea about milk proteins. I don't think so, certainly he seemed fine on this before but maybe it did add to his inflammation. Hoping that today I might be the last day I need it but I agree it is a great product for a sick cat.

 

Hi Sarah,
Just wanted to say I am so sorry Remi is poorly. I do hope you can get everything back on track very soon
Bron

 

Hi Sarah,

Very relieved to hear that you managed to get some food into Remi.

Re probiotics, Fortiflora provoked very strong nausea reactions in Saoirse. I am giving her a little pumpkin in her food at the moment to settle her tum (acts as a prebiotic). So far she has tolerated it OK and it has no impact on her BG numbers.

FWIW, Liquivite food has some whey protein in it and Saoirse tolerates that food fairly well (I think its liver content makes her queasy at times, though). I did read somewhere that whey protein can assist BG regulation in humans.

How are you and Remi doing this evening? You're both very much in my thoughts.

(((Sarah and Remi)))
.

 

Thanks Bron. I am hoping that things will settle down soon.

I have monitored remi's glucose on and off throughout the day and so far

AMBG 4.8 /86
One hour after feeding the second 10ml of royal canin convalescence support it was 6.2./111
PMBG 4.7 /85

He ate a small amount of his thrive food first thing this morning and then I decided to give him 10ml of his royal canin and then an hour later another 10ml with 1/4 ml of kaminox in it. About an hour after that he ate a whole 18 g of his normal food and again about an hour later he ate about another 10g of his normal food.

I do think the kaminox reawakens his appetite but have also noticed his tummy might be a tiny bit more gassy again but as he also stopped his antibiotic yesterday that could also be the reason. I just hope that the tumil k arrives tomorrow and we start to get some test results back. My vet did mention that if we rule out pathogens, IBD /sibo then we will have to consider things like lymphoma.

I will try to get him to eat his normal food in a bit and if not go for the liquid food again.

 

(((Sarah)))

 

Hi Aine

Yes remi did eat about half his normal amount of food this am but I supplemented it with the convalescence food.

I have broken my number one rule though and that is to change more than one thing at a time. Yesterday I stopped his antibiotic, I started on the royal canin and today introduced the kaminox back. My concern is that I won't know what to blame if things get worse or what to continue if things improve. As I said a minute ago I think that today is tummy is a little more uncomfortable for him again today but now I don't know if it's the lack of metrozidonale or stating the kaminox. . This frustrates me greatly.

 

I'm having to break the one-thing-at-a-time rule here too, Sarah. I'm relying on Saoirse's journals for things I know have worked in the past to try to weigh up which treatment is affecting what as best I can. I understand and empathize greatly with your frustration, but fingers crossed Remi's clinical signs may be able to guide you as to how his different treatments are benefitting him. I really and truly hope he feels much better very soon.

(((Sarah and Remi)))

.

 

Sarah, the key word there is 'if'.
Maybe there is a simple explanation for what's going on: Don't lose sight of that possibility.
And 'if' it does turn out to be something more (ie lymphoma), then you will find a way to deal with it.
Just take it one day at a time, sweetie.

Keeping everything crossed here for Remi's recovery.

Hugs,

Eliz

 

Sarah,

When Saoirse had her scan last week, nothing showed up on the ultrasound scan to indicate IBD but the specialist strongly suspects that low-grade IBD is present but that a firm diagnosis could only be made with a biopsy and both of us considered such a procedure to be too invasive. Maybe talk with your vet about "as if" treatment for Remi?

 

Thanks you guys. It's the lack of eating that I find the hardest to deal with. Everything else I can do, pill, puff and inject. But trying to a cat to eat when they don't want to is the hardest and most frustrating thing!

I am really bad at keeping a journal and I know I should. I did with the blood glucose but that fell away after I stopped having to give insulin. It is my new resolution and you are so right Aine what has worked before may work again, if only I could remember what that was.

 

Same here. I can feel my insides shrivelling whenever Saoirse has food/eating difficulties.

I use a modified version of the BG spreadsheet to keep Saoirse's journal. Maybe you could do similar, Sarah? I find it very helpful to just update the remarks throughout the day as I go along. (I don't really have much choice with the PTSD memory problems. If I don't record stuff pretty much immediately the information is lost because my mind can't store it any more). I can't recommend having the information there to refer back to highly enough.

I hope you manage to get some rest tonight and that Remi's appetite will be better tomorrow.

 

Sarah, is it possible that you would have posted here about any of this? It might be worth checking back through your own posts...? Just a thought...

 

Hi Aine -I always struggled with the spreadsheet especially when using it on the iPad. It just didn't work right but thinking about it now that I don't have to input all those values maybe just using the comment box would be okay.

Hi Elizabeth-quite possibly, I will have a look back through my threads.

As an update the vet emailed me late tonight and said that the faecal sample was negative for parasites (still waiting on the micro side ) but his blood is LOW for phosphate. Apparently it is 0.82 (uk) when if you look at Tayna's website it is usually 0.90 or higher in a cat over 12.

So I am not sure how to proceed. My vet is on a weeks leave after tomorrow night and it's Easter weekend so if someone could tell me what I should be asking for that would be great. Supplements? If so from the vets? Change of food? He is on thrive food which seems fairly low in potassium and I think the vet thinks that maybe dietary deficiency. So would changing to say the ropocat sensitive rabbit maybe help or is a fish based food a better way to go.

I am wondering if his IBD prevents him absorbing the right amount. My other thought was whether the iron in the kaminox is preventing absorption??

Any thoughts / advice gratefully received.

PS as soon as he started the insulin his energy levels went through the floor and have never really fully recovered even with potassium supplement

 

I'm sorry, I've got nothing to offer on low phosphorus (and struggling to even spell it today I'm so tired)!! We're more used to dealing with having to keep phos levels in food low for Shadow. Just dropping by to say I hope you and your vet can find an answer, whether it's a supplement or a change of diet, and that Remi starts to feel better soon.

 

Pancreatitis can cause damage to the enzyme-producing cells, sometimes permanently. How do the feces look? If they are any of these characteristics - pale, soft-ish, really stinky, larger than normal - talk to your vet about testing for exocrine pancreatic insufficiency (a fasting test) and the use of supplemental digestive enzymes.

 

His faeces are soft at the moment but not pale, more of an orange colour-the same sort of colour as the kaminox. They do stink though. He has just finished a course of antibiotics and so the size has changed recently from small and hard to more normal to soft. I will add it to the list to discuss with my vet.

Thanks you two.

 

Okay I am not sure about what is the best food to change to. I was thinking about ropocat sensitive gold but I just tried to work out the % calories from carbs, and the fat level is pretty high.

Did I work this out right?
http://www.happykittycompany.co.uk/collections/ropocat/products/ropocat-sensitive-gold-rabbit-200g
Protein % 37
Fat 48% of calories
Carbs 9%

Using @Elizabeth and Bertie UK food chart is there a novel protein food that is grain free and say less than 40 or 35% fat?

 

Morning Sarah,

Was just looking online for sources of potassium, and some of those look like things you may be able to include in Remi's diet: Winter squash is a good source of potassium, also plain yogurt, and milk (goat's milk has more potassium and is better tolerated by cats).
Other possible foods are red meats, chicken and turkey (those two surprised me!), and meaty fish such as salmon, tuna etc.

Will have a look to see if there's a novel protein food cat food with lower fat (I think the Ropocat foods are all quite high in fat, but maybe the Mac's Mono foods are lower...)

Eliz

 

This one isn't a novel protein but is single source and looks to be relatively low in fat:
http://www.happykittycompany.co.uk/...roducts/granatapet-symphonie-no5-chicken-200g
It's chicken-based, but does contain salmon oil.

Back soon...

 

Those numbers look like the calories from protein, fat and carbs per 100g of food.
To get the percentage of calories you divide those figures by the total calories per 100g, and then multiply by 100.
On my calculation it comes out as:
40.1% calories from protein,
50.5% calories from fat,
9.4% calories from carbs.
Total calories per 100g, 92.6

(Note: I think the Sheyderweb calculator uses a multiplier of 8.7 for fat instead of the usual 8.5)

And in fact, the Granatapet Symphonie chicken food that I linked to above has an almost identical percentage of calories from fat despite that fact that an initial reading of the food label would suggest otherwise. But it has a lower carb and calorie content than the Ropocat.
45.1% calories from protein,
50.4% calories from fat,
4.5% calories from carbs
Total calories per 100g, 77.6

I'm wondering if it's possible that there are some complementary/supplementary (ie incomplete!) cat foods that could be useful temporarily, in that they tend to have low fat content (if keeping the fat content low is a prime concern)...
.

 

Thanks Elizabeth for going to all that trouble. The information is fantastic.

The foods are just so confusing. I really thought that the ropocat would be the way to go when you just look at the headline protein levels, etc but when you work it put it is quite a high fat level. My vet thinks I should try the thrive ocean fish food but I know fish isn't meant to be the best thing to give exclusively but can't quite remember why. Is it because it has a higher phosphorus level in which case that might actually be good for remi.

I actually have the grantapet chicken food but again the fat level worried me and so it has just sat there.

That's great info about the various foods. I have just plucked up the courage to give remi a little of the mercola probiotic this morning so if that's alright maybe I could give him some plain live yoghurt as well? Funnily enough about five minutes after eating the food /probiotic he ran up the stairs as if he was kitten again! He confounds me every day.

So I am wondering if the low levels of phosphorus are down to the Zantac blocking the uptake slightly, his IBD influencing take up and the cisapride pushing the food through his system more quickly than normal.

Am still waiting for the tumil k but hopefully that will arrive today.

 

I was looking into the pros and cons of fishy foods recently (for my extremely picky CKD foster kitty...) and found this info on the CRF website.
http://www.felinecrf.org/which_foods.htm#fish
From what I've gleaned, problems can arise if kitties are fed a lot of fish, but having fish occasionally (or indeed during times of illness or inappetence) isn't so problematic.

The info you found out about the Thrive foods the other day showed that most of them have relatively low phosphorous content. And, on the basis of that info I'm now giving a little of the 'tuna' and the 'salmon & tuna' versions to my CKD foster, Elliot (as a topping on other foods, to encourage him to eat), so thanks for that info, Sarah!
But the 'ocean fish' version is higher in phosphorous and potassium (I see that the main ingredient is mackerel, which I did find listed elsewhere as a good source of potassium). It looks like it could be good choice for your boy. Does he like fish....?
.

 

Oh I think he loves fish but hasn't had it for many years. The thing is he would have to be on it exclusively at least for a couple weeks to see if it helped his IBD. From what I have read for IBD it is better to feed different proteins in rotation so one type for a couple of months and then move on to something else.

Will check out the link.

 

Those are not the values you need, Sarah. If you had 100g of food then the figures above would be the number of calories within that 100g that come from each nutrient. If you add up the figures you listed, the total is 94, so 100g of food would provide a cat with 94 kilocalories of energy.

To determine carbohydrate level suitability for an FD cat, you need to take the number of actual kilocalories coming from carbs, divide that by the total number of kilocalories the food contains and multiply that by 100.

% kilocalories from carbohydrates = (no. of kilocalories provided by carbohydrates / total kilocalories) x 100.

For fat suitability, I don't know whether you need % of kilocalories from fat or Dry Matter Basis % of fat.

For the Ropocat Rabbit food:

Kilocalories per nutrient in 100g of food (helps you work out how much to feed):

Protein: 36.10%
Fat: 46.75%
Carbs: 8.75%

Percentage of Kilocalories per nutrient (to determine diabetic suitability):

Protein: 40.1%
Fat: 50.5%
Carbs: 9.4% <<<<< This is used to determine diabetic suitability.

Dry Matter Values (used to make direct comparisons between foods:

Protein: 50.5% <<<<< High protein content.
Fat: 26.2% <<<<< <<< Moderate fat content.
Carbs: 11.9% <<<<<<< Moderate carb content.

(Sorry for overlap with earlier posts but I wanted to put all of the numbers side-by-side so that you could see how they vary and what they can tell you.)

Is it definitely the percentage of calories from fats and not dry matter fat percentage that you need in order to pick foods suitable for Remi? If it is the dry matter fat percentage that you need to consider, it might give you more food choices for him.

It's situations exactly like this I was thinking of when proposing that the food charts should contain more than just 'calories from carbs' information because it would be of so much value to caregivers of cats who have GI or other issues comorbid with FD.

 

You can add 1 ounce of plain lean meat/poultry to every 5 of cat food to improve the protein content, and proportionately reduce the fat and carbohydrate content. Mix well, and portion out. (per Cat Info).

 

The current draft does contain more than the 'calories from carbs' info.
It contains the calories per 100g, and the phosphorous content (dry matter) where that data is available.
It also contains all the 'typical analysis' data from the label to enable people to do further calculations to suit their own purposes if they wish.

 

Thanks everyone for your replies. I had used to extra info on the chart to work out the %of calories from carbs but had not realised about that extra step. It would be useful to perhaps have a link to the calculator on the chart so people can work out what they want from the raw data.

The diet thing is just too stressful to deal with at the moment. From my reading it seems I need to try rabbit for a while to see if that helps but I need to find one that isn't too high in fat. Will work through the UK list to see if any others are lower %of fat from carbs.

In the meantime I have started him on the probiotic and I feel that it has helped a little so far but too early to tell. The tumil k came and I put a tiny amount in his food last night and he refused to have it so now I am wondering if I should have gone with the tablets as I can pill him easily enough. Does anyone know how big the tablets are? Remi's food doesn't have much smell and I think that the tumil k really changes how it smells and tastes.

 

Sarah, just a thought but have you considered raw rabbit?

Until quite recently I was feeding raw rabbit to my lot as part of their food rotation. But unfortunately, the company that supplied it closed down. I just found this one though:
http://www.purrform.co.uk/farmed-rabbit-with-ground-bone
The postage looks pretty steep generally, but they do a 'trial pack'.

Rabbit is usually a lean meat and seems to be generally well tolerated by kitties with sensitive tums.
.

 

Elizabeth -That looks like a really great food. My only hesitation is that remi has tried a little raw a few years ago and refused to eat it and I remember that there is a query about raw food and pancreatitis. Will look into it again though.

That's what I thought, rabbit is low in fat. This is why I don't understand how the canned foods can end up being such a high percentage of fat. Maybe I am not really understanding it right??

 

Sarah,

The muscle meat is low in fat. However, the foods will also contain body fat. The fat content of the final canned food will depend on the proportions of the ingredients the manufacturer uses in the recipe.

Because fat is the most energy-dense nutrient, it will have a high value. What do the Yahoo group advise to use for comparison purposes: dry matter fat % or kilocalories from fat %?

How are you and Remi doing today? You're both very much in my thoughts.

 

That assumes that any list user seeking further information knows how to do the calculations and is comfortable with doing so.

 

It doesn't assume anything, Aine. It's just data that may prove useful.

Perhaps you could help people by setting up some 'live' calculation sheets for people to use, along with information about how to do the calculations? (This kind of thing has proved helpful in the past).
Something to discuss on another thread perhaps.
.

 

Remi is doing okay. I am obsessing as per usual

Remi is eating about 3/4 of the normal amount of food but still seems very lethargic and a little weak. I tried the tumil k last night but he wouldnt have any of it so not quite sure how to get it into him. He can also taste/smell the probiotics so I have to be careful there as well.

On that note can I check that the probiotic I am using has no hidden sugars- it has silica and microcrystalline cellulose. Is that alright?
http://probiotics.mercola.com/probiotics-for-pets.html

I am going to make a bone broth tonight or tomorrow morning. Unless anyone has specific suggestions I am just going to add the bones and meat to water and boil for a few hours (without the skin on it). I read that it is meant to be very healing for the gut. @Bron and Sheba I know you have been making up a broth for a while now.

 

I already withdrew from the food chart project for reasons already stated on another thread.

Getting back on topic, I'm very glad to hear that Remi is eating for you, Sarah. Can't help with the probiotic stuff, but I've also read that the broth you describe can help the digestive tract (on an antipodean site IIRC). It might be better to simmer the broth rather than boiling it so as to preserve the nutrients a bit better. I hope Bron will be able to tell you more.

 

Sarah, I was just following up to see how Remi was doing- it sounds like he is at least eating a little better. I read your last comments on probiotics and the relationship to pancreatitis, so I have my fingers crossed for Remi. (as I said before, Tiger has had no adverse effects and she has chronic pancreatitis as well.) I am not familiar with the probiotics that you are using, Marje and Gracie uses Renew Ultimate flora, pretty sure they are sugar free. Have you tried Gelcaps for pills such as the protiotic and Tumil K? Lots of us use them for especially bitter pills, you can chase it with a spoonful of baby food or another food that Remi likes. Continuing healing vines for Remi.

 

Hi Sarah,

Just checking in to see how things are going with you and Remi.

 

@phlika29 Hi Sarah,
Sheba has recently (6 months ago) been diagnosed as very early stage CRD. I researched it and made changes to her diet and also the way I made her broth. I know you have a lot more eating issues with Remi than I do (anti jinx) but I changed Sheba to a home prepared diet and that stopped her diarrhoea which she had had for months. I was giving raw kangaroo and cooked chicken drumstick plus chicken heart and liver. When I found out about the early CRD I modified it as follows. After much research.

• I cut back on the meat and organs and added egg white as a replacement for the cut back meat,which lowers the phosphorus level of the meal
• I stopped bonemeal and instead added egg shell powder which I make myself to replace the calcium needed in the diet. This lowers the phosphorus level of the meals
• Gave added vitamin B
• Gave added fish oil
• I changed the way I made the broth. When I cooked the chicken I used to use THAT water to add the bones to but after research I found that if I THREW OUT that water and added the bones to fresh water, it lowered the phosphorus levels. That is because some of the phosphorus in the chicken meat leaches out into the water when cooking. Don't add anything else to the water. Cook the bones for at least 6 to 8 hours, put in frig then skim off the fat, and I put in ice cube trays and freeze for future use.
• I also give Sheba a small amount of canned each meal for carbs. I use Weruva "cats in the kitchen"canned food. If you look online they give you all the levels of carbs, phosphorus etc and you can choose which one you think will be suitable. I use Fowl Ball and chicken fric a zee but there at about 10 to choose from. Some have more fat then others. If you don't do home prepared food and are looking for a canned food, Weruva is worth looking at.

If you want to know more about any of the above please tag me. I am no expert but have learnt by trial and error through necessity when trying to help Sheba! I have only briefly touched on each one. I have had Sheba on this diet now for 5 or 6 months and her urea is stable and her creatinine and phosphorus are normal.(anti jinx)

 

@phlika29
I noticed where you said Remi vomited in the mornings and I meant to add that Sheba does that sometimes. It can be frothy or it can be more bile coloured. I think with Sheba it is because she doesn't like having an empty tummy and the acid builds up. So now I put a cube of frozen broth ( can be 5 or 10 mls ) and a tiny piece of steamed or boiled chicken in each of the 6 compartments of the auto feeder and set it for each hour overnight up until 2 hours Pre shot. It not only keeps something in her tummy, it gives her some fluids. I have found her vomiting is rare now I do this.

 

Hi everyone and thanks for the kind wishes and thoughts.

Just a quick update. Remi has been doing a little better. We are now on day three of the probiotic and for the last two days remi's stools have been solid again and his tummy appears less bloated and gassy. I would say that he seems a little spaced out which is not something I had seen before (I had read this might happen when he first starts probiotics??) but he certainly is sitting more easily on his tummy.

@Tiger and Ruth I have started to give the probiotic in a gel capsule in the evening and then spread it out in his morning meals. So far so good. When he has been on this brand for a while longer I will probably try another and so thanks for the suggestion. The tumil k is going okay to and I Can see this is giving him better energy and appetite again. If any issues then I guess this will have to go in a gel cap as well. I am very lucky remi is easy to pill.

When his tummy started to get worse he started to have a strange smell on the top of his head. When I. Say strange I am being polite for he smelt of poo! The vet explained what was happening to make that happen and the smell went when he started antibiotics but has since come back. Not as bad as before though.

@Bron and Sheba that info is really useful, thankyou. I plan to make a little broth tomorrow and add in. Remi is actually a little low on phosphorus (the vet thinks due in IBD affecting digestion of certain nutrients) and following from what you say so I think it will be benefit all to keep the water I cooked the bones in. I like your idea of leaving the frozen broth out overnight and I will give that a go to. I have had good success moving the Zantac I give him to last thing at night so the acid doesn't build up as much.

I have another question now- does anyone know if Zantac will affect the uptake of potassium supplement. (Tumil k) as I give it about 30mins after the Zantac??

Thanks once again for everyone's kind thoughts and advice.

 

Yes, good idea. If Remi is low in phosphorus you need to keep the water you cook the chicken meat in! It will be tastier too. I hate throwing it out and often use the first lot of broth (from the chicken meat) to use in my cooking of casseroles etc
I don't know about the Zantac question but often waiting for 2 hours between drugs is the way to go. Maybe someone else knows more.
Really pleased Remi is doing better

 

Very glad to hear Remi's doing better, Sarah.

@Bron and Sheba - Thank you for sharing your tips for homemade food. It's something I really want to move to. (Still waiting for allergy test results.)
.

 

Gosh, Bron @Bron and Sheba ,
I've only ever thrown the chicken bits into a pan and simmered for 45 minutes.
You've managed to turn the making of chicken broth into a science!

Sarah, it's so good to hear that Remi is improving.

 

My (stage 3) CKD foster kitty has done the 'morning puking' thing also; but in his case, adding a little slippery elm bark powder to his last meal of the day seems to have resolved the problem....so far...

 

Well I made my first batch of chicken broth but it seems very watery. I only cooked up two chicken thighs with the meat attached in a small pan of water and cooked it for about four hours but it just looks like coloured water.

Will it still be beneficial? Should I have cooked up more bones? I have left the meat to cool in the water overnight and then remove them and give the meat to remi.

 

Although it seems watery now it may well set in the fridge overnight (because of collagen from the bones) and become chicken jelly by morning...

 

@Elizabeth and Bertie @phlika29
I usually cook about 12 to 16 chicken legs. The more bones, the stronger the broth. You can use as many or as few as you want but if you want enough to freeze some of it, I'd go for a larger number.
I take the meat off after a short time ( should be cooked) and put the bones back in and simmer them for 6 to 8 hours. Strain the fluid at the end. If it turns to jelly as it should, you will find it messy trying to get the bones and meat out of the jelly. With all the meat from the chicken legs I either weigh it in batches for Sheba's meals or use it myself -I just throw in some stir fried vegetables and sauce and add the cooked meat and a quick meal is done. Not a true stir fry but I'm all for a quick meal

Elizabeth , if you have a stage 3 CKD, and you need to keep the phosphorus low, I would throw out the water you cook the chicken meat in and use fresh water to cook the bones in. I have read that some of the phosphorus will leach into the water when the chicken is cooked, so throwing out the water will lower the phosphorus level.

 

@Bron and Sheba , I hope you don't mind but I put a link to your post in the Think Tank forum (where we're collating info in advance of (and in hopes of) setting up a 'food forum' and a 'concurrent conditions' forum. Your info seems relevant to both.)
Food Links
Pancreatitis Info (Edit: and other co-existing conditions)

 

Over the last couple of days remi has been doing much better. I had introduced the probiotic and was gradually building up his tumil k dose to the recommended 1/4 tsp twice a day. This morning I could tell that remi was feeling a lot stronger as he was more vocal, more demanding of his breakfast, sitting easier, not making a little noise when he slay down, etc. for the third night running he had a solid poo.

So far so good, then this morning he had semi loose motion. So now I am wondering if it is the potassium supplement that is irritating his GI tract. The stool seemed like it had mucous in it.

So today's questions are: does anyone else have issues when giving the potassium supplement. How do they give it? At the moment I am splitting the 1/4 teaspoon in the morning between the first and second of his four am meals and repeating in the evening. Remi gets approx 24 g of food at each meal but won't always eat it all up. Is this too little food to cost his tummy? Is there anything I can do to overcome this issue?

@manxcat419 I know you use tumil k. @Bron and Sheba do you use a potassium supplement? @Elizabeth and Bertie I guess you do for your foster kitty?

 

Sorry, I can't help with that, Sarah.
I don't supplement Elliot's potassium at the moment, although I fully expected to have to do that because his back legs are still weak and I thought potassium deficiency might have been the cause. But blood tests very recently showed that his potassium is in normal range (4.3).
He gets krill oil, slippery elm, vit B supplements, and a little extra taurine. And I add phosphorous binder to any food with a dry matter phos percentage above .7%.
(Incidentally, the vet said he didn't need a phosphorous binder at the moment because his phos is in normal range (at the top end of that)). But on the Tanya CRF website it points out that the 'normal range' is for 'normal cats', and CRF/CKD kitties are not 'normal' and generally do better with their phos levels lower. So, despite what my vet said, I am following the advice from the Tanya website.).

 

@Elizabeth and Bertie
No I dont mind at all Eliz that you linked the post to the Think Tank.

Sarah - no I don't use a potassium supplement for Sheba. So far her potassium level is normal. Sorry I can't help with the loose poop and mucous issue. I googled potassium and loose poops but could not find anything.
I am really glad to hear Remi is generally better. Maybe the loose poop was nothing to do with the potassium. Sheba has a loosish poop every so often for no reason then goes back to normal.
Have you tried mashed boiled pumpkin for his bowels?

 

Thanks for your replies. Sorry Elizabeth I forgot that you already told me about not having to give potassium.

The side effects of tumil k do mention GI disturbance. I think I will just keep an eye on it for now and maybe bite the bullet and post the question on Tayna's site. As you say it might just be co incidence and hopefully will settle again. He seems happy enough.

I don't like trying too many things in any one go so will just add the chicken broth and see how that goes and then maybe consider the pumpkin.

Cheers

 

You could try some Libby's canned pumpkin, Sarah (the plain pumpkin, not the pie filling). You can get it on Amazon UK. I've given it to Saoirse. I freeze it into cubes. If you're looking for slippery elm, try Neal's Yard. Sometimes they have organic SEB. You need to check if it's organic when placing an order.

I'm glad for both of you that Remi's feeling a bit better. Hope the next poo's solid.

 

We use the Tumil K pills, not the powder. We give one pill BID which I think would be the equivalent of you giving each of Remi's doses with one meal not two. Shadow seems to tolerate it fairly well now, though she did have a little GI disturbance when her dose was increased from once per day to twice about a year ago - that seemed to settle itself in about a week or so. Our vet didn't like the idea of the powder for exactly the reason you mention - Shadow doesn't always have a good appetite (she is 18) and they were concerned that she'd miss part of a lot of her doses by not eating all the food. Though if Remi isn't easy to give pills to, that might be a risk worth taking rather than stressing him out by having to give him pills.

I'm so glad to hear Remi is feeling better - hopefully now you're on the right track and he'll be back to his usual self very soon.

 

@manxcat419 thanks for the reply. I nearly went with the pills but wasn't sure what would be better. My vet didn't really have any opinion as he tends to use kaminox rather than tumil k. I can try that pills next time but as it's fairly pricey I had better to continue with the powder for now.

So just to confirm you give the tablet straight after the first meal of the day? Do you feed mini meals? I wonder that because remi has small meals there isn't enough food in his tummy to prevent irritation. I can't decide whether to try to give all the tumil k in one go or it is less likely to irritate spread over a few meals.

 

Thanks @Critter Mom I will order some pumpkin in just in case. The Neals Yard factory /garden is quite close to me and in fact I went there as part of my work just a week or so ago .

 

If you don't want to wait for that to be delivered you can use the mashed flesh of baked or steamed winter squash (ie, butternut/buttercup/acorn types).

 

Glad to hear that Remi is doing better! I hope the probiotic is helping a bit anyway. In answer to your question(way earlier in this thread, Zantac(ranitidine) should not interfere with absorption of potassium;however, it may interfere with B-12 supps. It is a confusing issue because the label says to give with or without food. And it is unclear if the fact that Zantac blocks the acid, there is no acid to break down food in the system- this may be why the absorption is less. I wanted to clarify, Remi is not taking any phosphorus binders?

Regarding the Tumil K, I know I have read on the Tanya's Support List(sorry I cannot find the link to the source) that most people space out the dosage as it can cause vomiting and diarrhea. Also recommended is switching brands if one is not tolerated. And also that the levels be checked regularly as too much can be as bad as too little. @Squeaky and KT Lyresa is quite versed in potassium supplements as she is CG to her own DH- she may have some suggestions? Continuing healing vines for Remi.

 

Hi Sarah,

As you know I feed Saoirse mini meals. Last summer after her Dx and the vet we were registered with at the time insisted she have only two feeds of w/d Dry per day, Saoirse had terrible trouble with stomach acid so over a couple of days I monitored how long she could go between meals without digestive distress (no way was I going to stick to a feeding regime that caused her pain! ). I found that her digestive transit time was between 3-3½ hours. Leave her to fast any longer and she would vomit up foam. When Saoirse was on Caninsulin, I stuck to the 3-hourly feeds with the +9 being only a 6g snack of the w/d Dry and it stopped the vomiting. When she moved to Lantus I switched to feeding same-sized meals every two hours. That reduced nausea because Saoirse didn't eat too much at any one time, it prevented stomach acid build-up (so no vomiting), and it also improved her BG regulation. Do you have a timed feeder? Maybe you could try something similar for Remi?

When it comes to administering meds and supplements, I start by introducing tiny amounts spread across each meal in most cases (not SEB - it interferes with absorption from the gut so I only give it once or twice a day). If Saoirse tolerates it, then sometimes I try increasing the proportion in some meals with a corresponding reduction in remaining meals as appropriate (sometimes with a slightly larger serving of food). If at any stage the increased portion disagrees with Saoirse I step back to the last OK dosing method. I have found it critical to keep daily notes in order to do this, especially for supplements that I only give from time to time, so that I have a record to refer back to in order to know what does and doesn't work for Saoirse (saves time and minimizes the risk of any discomfort to Saoirse).

Hope some of the above might give you some ideas for Remi. I must admit that I find the 'trial and error' part of condition management really hard to deal with because when I get it wrong it's Saoirse that it affects, and that shrivels up my insides every time.

 

I would agree, at the price of either the powder or the pills, it's best to continue with what you've already bought! We don't necessarily give the pills with or after food - all our cats are free fed and we just give Shadow the pills twice a day with at least 8 hours in between doses (the minimum interval is 6 hours). The exact time and whether or not she's eaten just before or after really doesn't seem to make any difference to her, though we do give her 1/4 of a Pepcid AC once a day as well which might well be helping with that. Plus, we probably just got lucky with her not having too much of an effect from the potassium as it does seem as though it's causing Remi some issues.

I think maybe the free feeding helps Shadow a bit - if she feels she needs some food to go with the pill, she can have it. I have noticed she'll quite often have 2 or 3 mouthfuls of food right after we give her a pill - it might be coincidence or she might realize that she needs to eat after she has a pill. I would have thought that with Remi possibly having some problems even with the doses split, combining them into bigger doses might well make him feel worse so I think for him I'd stick with splitting it across several meals each day.

 

Sarah @phlika29 ,
I've just found an online calculator that may be of use to you.
It's a 'dry matter' calculator. It is really simple to use, and should enable you to be able to compare the fat content of foods easily.

The only data you need for the calculation is the moisture% and fat% in the food (from the 'typical analysis' on the label or (if the food is on the UK list) from the 'typical analysis' data on the far right of the sheet).
You pop those figures into the two boxes in the online calculator and click 'calculate'. A little box will appear at the top of the page with the result. Ta-da!
http://fnae.org/dmb.html?inputboxm=77&inputboxi=1.7&button.x=75&button.y=21&button=Click

Eliz

 

Thanks for the tip @Elizabeth and Bertie I still think I should try remi with a new food and was going to work my way through your list until I came across one that had no more than 30 % fat (single protein). I do wonder if the thrive just doesn't have the right balance of ingredients for remi.

I tried to give remi the broth yesterday but he was having non of it! I warmed it but he just refused. He even turned his nose up at the chicken meet as well. So I think I might have to try again but with more bones and more cooking. I was a little concerned about the little bits of fat floating on the top. I skimmed off what I could but not all of it. I was thinking about using a paper towel to soak it up and next time removing all chicken skin??

One thing I have noticed is that whatever potassium supplement I have tried it doesn't seem to last all that long in his system. So before his next dose he gets week again. I wonder if the cisapride pushes it through his system too quickly. I am going to post on tayna's support site for more advice on the supplement.

 

Hi Sarah,
I didn't think to mention and I should have, that I always remove the chicken skin from the drum sticks before I cook them. If you use enough bones, the liquid will set like jelly and I scoop the fat off the top before I use it after letting it set overnight in the frig. I put hot water in a cup and heat up the spoon then scoop off the fat with the spoon. Reheat the spoon and repeat. That way I get off all the fat and don't loose too much broth jelly.
If it is not strong enough or I have watered it down too much, Sheba will not eat it either. I always give it to her warmed or defrosted to a jelly (then it is room temperature)

Re a new food with single protein- have you tried Weruva 'cats in the Kitchen' brand. Their website weruva.com has all the values of the protein, fat, phosphorus etc and might be suitable.

 

@Bron and Sheba , may I ask a chicken broth question..?
Two roast chickens have come into my possession. If I strip as much meat off them as I can (which will inevitably leave some meat remaining), does the carcass count as just 'bones'? Or will the remaining meat still be sufficient to add phosphorous to the broth...?

Eliz

 

Hi Eliz,
@Elizabeth and Bertie
I often get a rotisseried chicken and strip the meat off it and use the bones for a broth, providing there is no stuffing of course which stops me using the carcass part of the chicken. If you get as much of the meat off as possible I doubt very much if the remaining meat would add much phosphorus to the broth. So I think it would be fine to use and should make a yummy broth

 

Great! Thanks, Bron.

 

I think my first go at the broth is a fail but I will use it as a cooking liquid for my quinoa (as per the hemsley and hemsley sisters).

@Bron and Sheba I don't think that you can get that brand in the uk but will keep looking.

Thanks Elizabeth. I think this will be really useful.

 

We only have one group that sells Weruva out here. I only found it because I saw it being advertised on sale as a promotion when it first arrived. It is fairly new here. All quality ingredients and they give all the details of the product. Worth pursuing. I emailed the local company about the product and they gave me this link to email Weruva. If you email them they will be able to tell you where/if they sell it in the UK or if they have plans to sell it.
See below, I have copied and pasted part of the email I got from the Aust company:

"If you have any further questions you can of course email the company directly via their website www.werva.com under ‘drop us a line’ http://www.weruva.com/drop-us-a-line.php click on the link and it will open a new message in your email with the email address info@weruva.com

Re the failed broth---I often use the broth from the cooked meat when I cook quinoa too.

 

I will email them.

I am still trying to work out whether fat is to be considered according to dry matter % or % of calories. I have asked over on the panc board and will see what they say.

Dr Peirson appears to talk about fat content in relation to the % calories at the end of her chart.

Dr Zoran talks about % in relation to dry matter
http://www.catinfo.org/docs/DrZoran.pdf

 

Fat and other nutritional constituents can be represented different ways like:
% weight. For this dry matter is used since food, especially canned, has a lot of water
% of calories
% by volume (no really useful)

 

So I guess for a cat who may be sensitive to fat it is the actual physical amount if fat in a food that is if I retest and that is worked out by the % of fat by dry matter weight rather than %calories??

 

Yes and no. You have to consider the total amount the cats eats. So you can use either % from calories of % by weight.

 

Hi Sarah,
A dry matter calculation of fat% is useful when comparing how much fat there is in different foods.
If you want to work out how many calories from fat there are in 100g food, you just multiply the fat% by 8.5.
If you want to know the percentage of calories from fat, you take the calories from fat per 100g and and then divide that by the total calories in the food per 100g, and then multiply by 100.
(If the food is on the UK draft food list, then the total calories per 100g is already worked out.)

Have you got an idea of the fat content that suits Remi best?

 

This is just getting more and more confusing. I feel so stupid that I don't get what you are all talking about.

@Elizabeth and Bertie when you say fat content I don't know what I should be referring too %calories, weight or the other one? I just want remi to have a low to moderate fat content novel protein food. I read the 25 to 35% fat being a good proportion but am not sure quite which calculation that is referring too %calories, dry matter or what??

Looking back over this thread aine had listed the different ways of measuring the fat for the ropocat rabbit and if you look at the fat per dry matter weight I thought it looked okay at 26.9 %fat. But now I am not sure if that is how I should best measure it

 

Oh, Sarah, I do apologise. I didn't mean to cause confusion. And numbers can be very confusing indeed.
FWIW, If I read through a calculation that someone has done it rarely means anything to me until I get my calculator out and work though it myself!

I think that's most likely to refer to dry matter % (someone please correct me if I'm wrong) because there are fairly few foods that would have only 25 - 35% percentage of calories.

Where did you find that 25 -35% figure, Sarah? (The context might give more of a clue.) Was that referring to cat food generally, or to low fat cat foods?

Reassuring (((hugs))),

Eliz

 

The Terra Faelis rabbit (with broccoli and catnip) from Zooplus might be one of your options. It's single source novel protein and has dry matter fat % of 28.23. (Will try to find some other foods that might suit, but very few are single source novel proteins...)
Edited to add:
Ropocat Venison, with dry matter fat of 31.36% (My cats' favourite food).
Ropocat Rabbit, dry matter fat 26.19%
Ropocat Lamb, dry matter fat 30%
Mac's, mono sensitive, Turkey, dry matter fat 31.5%
Mac's mono sensitive, Lamb, dry matter fat 32.5%

The foods listed above are the only ones I've so far found that are low carb, and have a single novel protein source, and a dry matter fat content of between 25 -35%.

 

Dr Zoran mentions it is best to replicate a cats natural diet (for IBD, weight loss ,etc) and mentions high protein, moderate fat and low carb. For some reason I can't copy the relevant bits of the article but it mentions it on the last page in the IBD section and the also more detail in the section on obesity where it says that kitten food can often mimic the most natural diet ie 45 to 55% protein from dry matter, 8 to 15 %starch (dry matter) and 15 to 25 %fat (dry matter) with little dietary fibre

http://www.catinfo.org/docs/DrZoran.pdf

I got the 25%figure from dr Pierson's chart (right at the end of it) but I am not sure what she is measuring here because as you say it is hard to find foods that have 20-45% calories.

 

There is actually an interesting table of comparison right at the end of dr zoran's article comparing the nutrients found in a rat to typical canned food and kitten food.

 

Thanks Elizabeth for all that work and support.

I think I am going to try the ropocat rabbit. I have actually emailed dr Zoran to ask about how best to work out fat levels. I doubt she will reply but you never know!

 

Yes, have just seen that a rat carcass is 38.1% dry matter fat. Interesting (they are my tortie's favourite prey..... )

 

"Nothing ventured, nothing gained."

 

Sarah,

I haven't been on in a while, and just saw this post. How is Remi doing now? Tons of hugs to both of you.

 

Hi

I hope you are and lolly are well.

Remi had started to get better but then yesterday evening he had a big asthma attack that I have yet to get fully under control. I think it was bought on with me giving him half a tablet of tumil k for the first time as I thought it would be easier than giving the powder.

This morning his breathing isn't great and so I am going to start him on a short course of 5 mg steroid tablet once a day to knock back the inflammation. My vet gave them to me dafter he had his last flair but they weren't needed but this time I see no other option. Cross fingers that they don't bring him out of remission.

 

(((Sarah))),
Keeping everything crossed that Remi recovers soon, and that he does stay in remission.
Sending 'easy breathing' vibes to Remi, and a (((Big Hug))) to you.

Eliz

 

Sarah, I have nothing very helpful to add but I just wondered if the extremely high pollution levels today (level ten in the south east apparently) are affecting Remi. If that sort of pollution affects humans, why wouldn't it animals...? If that is the case, hopefully the asthma will subside tomorrow when levels are going to drop.

Diana

 

Hi Diana

I don't think the pollution helps but his main problem is definitely his IBD. He can go from being completely normal to burping and then having a major asthma attack. Tonight his tummy/chest is uncomfortable and even with the added oral steroid he is burping and now sounds a little chesty.

Since coming off the steroids last October when he got his diagnosis he has had three major asthma attacks and his tummy has been bloated and gassy on an off. Since the start of the latest flair his tummy has been upset quite badly and I really feel that diet is the key to trying to control the problem otherwise he will have to go back on antibiotics.

I have today ordered some ropocat sensitive rabbit food and hope this novel protein might help and will get the pumpkin that Aine suggested.

I am finding it very difficult to balance his various conditions but the asthma is my biggest worry at the moment because he can go from being fine to not being able to breath within minutes.

 

Sarah,

((Hugs))

Saoirse has some respiratory tract irritation since being at the Bristol facility. I've been sneezing, too. I've ordered some UV-C gadgets to see if it's something that's now in our environment that the radiation can put a stop to. I'll let you know how we get on with them.

 

Hi everyone.

Remis has been up and down the last few days but his tummy continues to cause him problems and this continues to affect his asthma to the point I am almost too scared to leave him alone.

Long story short, after a long email to my vet this morning we have made the decision to put remi back on oral steroids-2.5 mg EOD in addition to changing him over to a novel protein diet. I think I would rather cope with potentially having him be diabetic again rather than have to deal with him not being able to breath. My hope of course is that the new diet will help and that the steroids are temporay but if not then I am resigned to dealing with the outcome.

So my questions are how should I monitor remi's BG now he is back on the steroids? I plan to give him his dose EOD in the evening after his first meal. So should I monitor later that evening (when he has been eating) or should I wait for the morning pre breakfast? I could just do pre breakfast and pre evening main meal?