Sammy - TaTa - The Aftermath

When last we left our adventure Sammy was laying on the chaise in the living room at 239 at +17.5 with more Karo Syrup in him than a pecan pie. He is still laying on the chaise in the living but now he's 192 at +22.25 and showing great restraint about eating. He could be waiting for me to - like - open a can.

 

LOL what a crazy day you had yesterday! Oh my gosh are you still standing? Kitty is probably like wow MOM I like all this food, good thing he has a good appetite!!! Hoping for a better day for you today!!

 

The question of the moment is when to shoot, if at all, this glad-to-be-alive morning? What is the optimal eating and shooting pattern? Might be nice to get this every 12 hours thing at a workable time too.

 

Now is the time to pick when you want your 12/12 schedule. What +hour from his last shot would that be and what +hour are we now?

 

Ah, my little tyrant has appeared in the kitchen to sniff at the food and have a big long drink.

 

Now he's eating

 

Wow, Maureen, I'm glad your yesterday is over and I'll bet you are too. Your condo was like a soap opera! Best of luck today with figuring out your 12/12 shooting times, re-stocking your catfood pantry, etc. etc. You did great yesterday, and so did Sammy. Welcome to LL!!

Ella & Stu
P.s. get some sleep!!!

 

So he was at 192 at +22.25 and that was an hour ago. Gee, how time flies when you're having fun.

 

Good morning you two! Since I didn't get a chance to stop in your condo yesterday, I thought I'd stop in today and see how things were going....now I have to go ready yesterday's condo!! Unfortunately, at the moment, I don't have the time to do that since I am stopping in from tbp...so I guess I'll have to do that tonight.

Cya later on and I hope you get your 12/12 schedule figured out by then

 

I'm beginning to suspect we may have another problem. I see little evidence of pooping. This is a three-cat, two-cat box household. The three have various toilet habits. Sammy's the only cat I know to come in from outside to go to the bathroom. His kid brother prefers the great outdoors and Beauty is just glad if she's allowed to use the box. Unless Sammy went upstairs to use the convenience then I don't know when he pooped last. After the operation he had one soft bowel movement no diarrhea like they worried about and then a day or so later a giant one almost as long as his tail. That's the last I distinctly remember.

 

OK, so he pushed the food around the plate. Couldn't have eaten much.

 

good morning!
i rarely suggest skipping a shot, but in this case it might be the best idea. skipping would allow sammy's body to adjust not only from the over dose, but from all that hc and karo. his system is surely out-of-whack today. one skipped shot is nothing in the scheme of things.
what do you think?


ps - another bonus is you'd be able to regroup today.

 

I was going to take another reading in about 10 minutes to see if we could tell what direction we're going in here - like trying to see if the tea leaves tell us anything.

 

OK, another bite more and more drinking

 

that's fine. it may give you an idea on how to proceed...

 

Morning Maureen....you did a great job yesterday!
We try to link yesterday's condo in our first post of the day so here it is from yesterday for you:

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=12305

Wishing you well today...everyone here is so fantastic, aren't they? :thumbup Happy Monday to youz!

 

Oh, thanks. I didn't know that. Ah, technology

 

213 at +24

 

the decision is yours whether to shoot or not. personally, i don't think it would be so bad to skip to allow his body to get back to normal. it's also possible he may be little more sensitive to the insulin after yesterday's ordeal.

 

You thinking wait a whole day like until this time tomorrow?

 

another thought... you could always give him a token dose just to get some insulin in him something like 0.5 unit.
you've been dealing with diabetes for a long time. i bow to your knowledge of your cat...


edited to add: just saw your question. no. i meant you could skip this morning's shot and then shoot tonight.

 

yeah, I know Sammy but I know nothing about Lantus. It's like handing a three-year-old a gun. That stuff is - whoa - powerful. So I would defer to you. He's not in any imminent danger. He's barely eaten. His digestive tract may be a mess. His ear must be smarting. He's gone back to sleep.

 

Just so I understand. Do you feed and then shoot? If so how long between is optimal?

 

i really don't think there's any problem with skipping the shot this morning for the reasons you've mentioned.

Do you feed and then shoot? If so how long between is optimal?
i do both at the same time. while alex has her head stuck in the food bowl, i shoot her.
you have a couple of hours to get food on board with lantus. *usually* onset isn't until +2 or +3... depending on the cat.

 

And what about curving?

 

not sure what you're asking.

 

Just want to say Good Morning and hope you have a less stressful day you deserve it after yesterday's ordeal and want to again say so happy you are hear just keep reading the Sticky's above they are so helpful in learning about how to use Lantus :YMHUG: :YMHUG: :YMHUG:

 

Sorry. So you get up in the morning and get a GB but - provided it's sensible - you shoot the agreed dose. Then you test again in 3-6 hrs looking for the nadir?

 

Wow, what a day and night you had. And you're funny and have a good attitude, too. I followed your thread until I couldn't keep my eyes open anymore. I'm glad you found us. See what wonderful people we have here? :mrgreen:
Welcome again Maureen.

 

lol! these days, i just shoot on the 12s, but i'm comfortable shooting on low numbers. i also have tons of data to support my decisions and am able to monitor (work from home).

since you're new to lantus, you might want to start with shooting full doses on anything over 180. as soon as you start collecting data, you'll be lowering that low shoot number. whenever you get a preshot number lower than usual, post for advice. at that point you'd be presented with 3 options:
--- shoot if you're available to monitor
--- do not feed, stall and retest in 20 - 30 minutes to hopefully catch him on a rise before shooting
--- shoot a BCS dose (big chicken sh*t dose)

initially, i'd get a +3, +6, and a +9. those spot checks will give you a clue as to whether you need to monitor more closely that day/night. i'm not a huge fan of curves. i think you can do random spot checks on different days to obtain pretty much all the data you need.

 

What about curving?
Do you mean spot checks or doing a curve? The latter can be every 2 or 3 hours. You will probably want to do a curve once Sammy's system has settled down or whenever you feel like it. The minimum number of checks include AM and PM pre-shot and one additional check per cycle. More is always better.

When you are feeling up to it, it will be very helpful if you could start a spreadsheet and complete a profile. The instructions for both are in the Tech forum. There are instructions for how to attach both to your signature so we have access to that information.

As Pat noted, we also attach the previous day's thread (aka in Lantus-speak, "condo") to the first post of the current day. You just cut and paste the http line from your browser.

 

Well, I got as far as opening a Google account. Maybe I should start with the profile.

 

I too work out of the house, which I have rarely been out of since Sammy was diagnosed. I was supposed to go back and forth to the city (I'm on Long Island) a couple of times this week. :lol: Guess that ain't gonna happen.

 

Yikes Maureen, yesterday's soap opera had me sitting on the edge of my seat. I see you survived and are in good humor again. :smile: Kudos to you!!
Are you the Catnip Cottage, Maureen?

Hey Sammy, let's not have any more drama like that, Okay/

 

you never know. you may feel comfortable leaving once you see how sammy reacts with the right dose.
i'm going to leave you in the capable hands of those who are on the board this morning. i *see* many experienced sets of eyes here.
will catch up to you later...

 

Hi again, Maureen, I see that while I was writing this Jill has already given you the information. But I'll post it anyway! Here is is:

As I understand it, you get up in the morning and test Sammy's blood glucose. If it is a safe number (here you will have to ask Jill or Libby or D. or Sienne what a safe number for Sammy might be at this point), you shoot the prescribed dose and feed him at the same time. (The purpose of getting the AMPS and PMPS tests is simply to see if it is safe to shoot; it is not for the purpose of deciding what the dose should be; Lantus needs consistency to be able to work properly). Then, during the course of the 12-hour cycle you try to get in some more tests so you can get a curve to see where the nadir is, how quickly (or slowly) he reaches his nadir, and how long he "surfs" in the lower numbers before his bg numbers begin to climb again. If you are home, try to get at least a +3, +6, and +9 before the PMPS. Also get a test before you go to bed at night. If you can get other tests in, that is good because then the experts can have a better idea of Sammy's patterns. If you are not home, get an "out the door" test and then test again when you return. On the weekend, try to test more frequently. Any changes in the dose are made gradually and held for several days (see the Protocol). The bg number at nadir is how the dose is determined and/or adjusted.
I hope I haven't provided too much superfluous info. for you. I have been learning all of this over the last 2 1/2 months. As a former PZI Vet user, I had to overcome all that I had learned about using PZI vet when I switched to Lantus. Most important: DO NOT ROLL THE INSULIN VIAL or cartridge in your hands before filling the syringe. Lantus doesn't like to be "shook up"!!

Good luck today!
Ella

 

No, that seems quite clear. And wouldn't you know the doctor told me to roll it.

 

Doc told me to roll it also. I preferred to take advice from board members. Ain't telling him that, tho. :lol:

 

If I wait til tonight it's going to be hard to do +3, +6, +9. Not impossible just hard.

 

I will

 

Doc told me to roll it too. I guess it's just them being used to other insulins? I plan to educate my vet next time we go back... if I can find the tact and diplomacy that should probably be used. I wish I could borrow Sienne when I go, I love how tactful she is. I'm afraid I'll just be blunt. "Dude, you're a fool. You told me this, this and this.... but in reality you don't do this, you do that *this* way and the other thing was just plain dumb. Go to FDMB and get an education in FD before you send someone home to kill their cat."

So yeah. I haven't made that appointment yet :lol:

 

Sister!!!

 

I'm much more tactful in writing -- I can use the delete key. There have been many times that my mouth engaged before my brain!!

I'd suggest blaming the difference in information on the pharmacist! ("The pharmacist where I got my Lantus reinforced that you have to treat it gently -- no rolling, shaking, etc. S/he said something about it not being the same kind of suspension as other insulin. Gee, isn't that interesting?")

Don't worry about getting tests in this cycle if you're not shooting. I would try to get the SS working before your PMPS (PM pre-shot) time.

 

so are you shooting this morning, or not? :mrgreen:

If you shoot now, your next shot will be due 12 hours from now, which puts you on a pretty late schedule for getting night spot checks. At this point it might be wise to wait until this evening to shoot. Then you can also be pretty sure the overdose has cleared out and we'll be seeing more true numbers.

 

yeah, tonite. He looked bright eyed last time I saw him.

 

Oh jeepers I missed the whole thing!!! But I just read it! Great job you did there, Maureen! Welcome to LL :mrgreen:

 

I didn't do anything except create the situation. You guys saved him. I was just your instrument.

 

Maureen I just read your post from yesterday...gosh what a day! Looks like you handled it beautifully. Hope you have a chance to relax a bit and catch up on sleep tonight!

I also just want to say how impressed I am with you guys... people taking 'shifts', pushing their own things aside and staying up late. You're all awesome!

 

Aren't they though

 

Hi Maureen!! Welcome to lantus land and What an entrance :lol:
You got the best advice possible & you did a great job!
I also am on Long Island, and could help you if you should need it! I also work out of the house..
You did exactly the right things yesterday, and I'm sure you will get it figured out, with the help of our members.
The transition from one insulin to another is always a challenge..Hope it all transitions well for yoou & Sammy.
Have a great Monday :mrgreen:

 

When I initially bought a vial.. many moons ago.. the pharmacist told me to roll it..and put a sticker on the bottle saying so.. luckily I realized pretty quickly how bad the math on the vial was.. and the first time I suspected the insulin was no good (was probably a bounce.. but I was a noob ).. I started getting pens off my diabetic friend instead.. and HE gave me the right instructions .

As for Sammy's LB action or lack there of.. if it's "in the budget" at all.. maybe it would be a good day to go get him checked out.. he really should be pooing something after all the junk food he ate yesterday..

 

Oh, boy. I'm in Glen Cove. Where are you?

 

Really, that was some entrance. Punkin, by the way, thinks Sammy to be quite the little drama queen. That was quite a read last night!

Hey, me-n-Punk are on Lawn Giland too! There are a few of us here.

Keep up the good work. :mrgreen:

 

266 at +26.5

 

Wow!!!! @-) I just read yesterday's thread and talk about making an introduction!

You handled that really well and had the support of some very good, knowledgeable people here. Way to go.

Welcome to the group.

Regarding earrings, I promised Maui one earring and I would wear the mate. She decided she didn't want to wear any and told me to go poke myself. So, I went to Claire's and let them poke me instead. Now, I have a hole dedicated to Maui.

 

cute. So what time do you shoot? I'm trying to think of a sensible arrangement but there appears there is none

 

I usually shot at about 6:30am/pm. That gave me a little leeway in the morning if I needed it before I had to leave, and it also allowed me to stay up until +6 (or later) at night if I had to. I often had to because Lucy was a drama kitty. It was helpful to be able to get lots of spot checks in the evenings, because I couldn't during the day.

 

Libby makes a good point, I'm shooting at 8's and usually I can barely stay awake long enough for +2 or 3 if I push it. On the other hand, I could sleep later in the morning if I were a late sleeper. Part of the reason I fall out so early is because I'm usually up between 5 and 6am. It's just when I wake up. Ideally, I'd like to shoot at the 6's but that's not a good evening time for our household. 7:30 worked out ok while it lasted. It just all depends on what you think will work for you the best.

 

324 at +29

 

392 at + 31.75.

OK I'm ready to do something. This is getting too high for my tastes.

Vet just called because I called him this morning about my thinking Sammy wasn't pooping. Sammy has none of the symptoms he reeled off: vomiting, straining and lack of appetite. His belly isn't distended or hard either. He suggested letting him lick a dab of Vaseline twice a day. He wants to see him stat if I don't think he's gone b/c it could impact his diabetes. I gave him a 25-word description of yesterday and now he knows about you guys.("Who's we?", says he.) I said I would love to introduce him. I told him you were thinking 1.5 twice a day. He wonders if Sammy might be a candidate for once a day and thinks we should try a 2U dose. When he said that he knew that Sammy was 324 at +29 at 1:41pm, which he rightly thought was high but I explained that we needed to establish a workable schedule and that's when he came up with his person-pleasing once-a-day solution. Re: yesterday. He wanted to know how low Sammy got and what we did to forestall him going through the floor. Odd, he never asked what I gave him.

 

Maybe it's best if I start a new topic. Bear with me, people, technology is not my strong suit.

 

Stick with this post, we try to keep all conversations in one post for ease on the advisors.

 

The ladies will explain it much better but Lantus is not a once a day insulin. You'd be giving him 2 units which would be gone after 12 hours, then he'd be without it for 12 hours... at least as I understand Lantus and how it works.

 

There's the bounce we were expecting last night. Better late than never.

You can shoot your 1.5 whenever you're ready. I'm not sure what you're thinking would be a good schedule for you, but yeah, I would go ahead and get some insulin into him. We can fiddle with the schedule tomorrow if we need to adjust to a different time for your "permanent" schedule.

 

and they gave him a diploma. You think I should give Sammy 1.5U before he gets higher?

 

That's what I'm thinking. I'm worried about letting him go on like this. I'll take another reading and then shoot him up. I can always get up.

 

yep, I would shoot. You work from home, so if it takes us a couple of days to get to your preferred schedule, we can work it out. We've done that lots of times.

 

OK it's done.

He was at 452 +32.5

It wasn't the very cleanest shot I ever did, but he was in a weird position purring to get those endorphins for company. It wasn't a fur shot either. I never did one of those thanks be. I shot that itty-bitty 1.5U using a U100 needle. I did not shake the bottle. I did not roll the bottle. There was nothing floating in it. It looks like water. I filled the syringe and returned the bottle to the frig. Put the cap on the needle and in my best Dr House manner stuck the plunger between my teeth so I wouldn't be holding the thing in my hand and went to find him. He hasn't been this high since January of 2006. Now, I'm going to have a drink. Maybe two. Maybe three. Large ones. I'll see you in three hours.

 

{{{Maureen}}} Enjoy your drink, drinking09 even two or three if you think you can still test after three I personally fall asleep on the couch in front of company after one :lol: :lol: You sure deserve it though after all you've been through!

I feel your frustration on the vet thing. Mine was all wrong on a few things and a little wrong on a few things... but at least he keeps me supplied with what I need for the folks here to actually help me get my boy better :lol: *said as I look over at the script for syringes that I stopped in today to pick up while admirably keeping my mouth shut the entire time I was there* I have a letter saved on my computer that I plan to take to him when I go in next, detailing the many ways he steered me wrong and suggesting he take a look at some more information on FD to better serve his future FD patients and the people who have to deal with it.

But you're in great hands here! Maybe your vet will be open to learning more if you approach him in the right way, some people have convinced their vets to work with them on this, while others just smile and nod and go home and do it this way Either way, you'll be getting a handle on all of this very soon. Trust me =) I thought those first few days were crazy (and mine were nothing like yours have been!) and my brain would explode but here I am, brain's still in my head and Tugger is doing SO well. Plus, I've met lots of people who are full of awesomesauce!

 

Return with me now, if you will, to either late December of 2005 or early January of 2006 at least a month - I will burn in hell for this - after I knew in my heart that Sammy was diabetic. Vet 1, who I used for years and watched go from an idealist to a money grubber, wanted me to shoot without testing. Didn't make sense to me. That's how I found you guys. So I go back to him and I say I want to test before I shoot. And he says to me - swear to God - "There'll be blood all over the room." I had to shop around for a malleable vet who didn't believe but let me do what I wanted. Imagine, shooting without testing.

 

BTW you do NOT need a script for syringes. Suprised the heck out of me too. But I've been getting syringes thru the mail since January 2006 and never had a script.

 

Well now I've learned three things today! Probably more than three but three stuck ;-)

 

Well, I hate to admit it, but I shot PZI Vet without testing for 4 years. Fortunately Stu survived. It was only with the switch to Lantus that I began to have doubts about the whole process, and that's when I found this board. The FDMB has literally saved my cat. The change in him is remarkable. The people here are so knowledgeable and so compassionate. And my vet has turned out to be totally supportive. I hope things will work out for you with your present vet. Lantus really needs to be dosed twice a day in cats.

Good luck this evening. You'll get Sammy straightened out with a little help from your new friends here.

Ella

 

Does anybody have an opinion about the vaseline cure?

 

Thanks. I'm sure I will.

 

I've never needed to do it but I have heard it works...

 

you know of any unintended consequences?

 

I don't... no, but that's not sayin' much. I vaguely recall my step-mom putting it on our cat Stubby's paw a few times and he lived 19 years... that's about as close as my experience with it gets though. Vague memories and second hand stories from friends who've used it for hairballs and bm's. None of whom have ever come back and told me what happened after giving it. Some of them I think would have if there had been *messy* consequences (frantic calls asking how to get cat poo off walls or something I'd think :lol: ) Maybe google vaseline cats constipation and see what Dr Google has to say, and/or try the search function on the forum and see if anyone else has asked the same thing here.

I apparently need to decide what's for dinner. Like, five minutes ago. I have 6 starving four legged kids and the other beans are acting a little bit like starving jackals themselves....

 

Maureen, my vet told me that Vaseline does not work as a laxative, but that it does coat hairballs, and they pass easily.
Don't ask me how that works. I give mine Checkers Vaseline for hairballs and he has never had loose stools from it, so my guess is,it will not work as a laxative.
However.......other people say it does have laxative effect. So, how do you know who to believe?
Umm, are you Catnip Cottage, Maureen?

 

sorry Catnip Cottage sounds like something I'd like to be until they legalize marajuana but I don't know what that means.

 

:lol: :lol: :lol:

 

Yeah any hairball goo is just vaseline with sugar in it so most cats will like it.. (1 of my 3 can't stand it.. luckily, the one who needs it likes it).. it helps the hairballs go in either direction.. up or down.. though it's never been my choice which .

 

:lol: Maureen is a beautiful soul, who runs a rescue called OLM Catnip Cottage. I knew of her from old board. When you mentioned the old board yesterday, I wondered if you were her. :smile:

 

Spooky, I was just thinking about something like that this afternoon.

 

Hey Maureen,--But I do like your explanation!
I'm in Long Beach and been here on FD 2 yrs.
Lantus land here is an amazing place where you & your kitty will both get So much better!!!
Hairballs--I give my cats olive oil(10 drops for both in am), and vitacoat-omega 3 oil ( 5 dropsin pm) mixed in their food.
They rarely have them, but I did discover that my civvie was allergic to candles-the scent was am irritant to him, & he groomed himself twice as much, causing hairball city--Since I stopped, it stopped- amazing!
Did they tell you to start a new condo every day here, and how to post your numbers??
Looks like you are doing Ok so far--Good work! :mrgreen:

 

No, not exactly

 

419 at +3

 

OK every day we go on top of page & click on new topic--In heading date, name, numbers: 4/19 Sammy AMPS 138 (for example)+3~110,+6~98
Then just write like you did here , posting the numbers like I did throughout the day--writing like you did here...
Look in other condos & you'll see!
Then there's the spreadsheet, well I'll leave them for others to help with..as I am not computer expert!

 

Yeah, I tried to read some of those spreadsheets to see what I should do and, pshew, my eyes crossed . But right now I should have done something like 4/19 Sammy AMPS 452 +3~419. (I love the uncertainty, how true, how true.) AMPS even if we're starting now, I suppose

 

Just move to Canada..where the laws are fuzzy and nobody cares anyways!

 

Maureen I am a vet tech and have worked with my vets for almost 16 yrs and they also shoot without testing I just had a BIG confrontation on the phone last thursday with Do Lou's vet going on and on and on about how I am hurting my cat by sticking him over and over <sigh> I will see him tomorrow and have not called in to talk to him since so I know I will be in for yet another one on one with him, we are a great animal clinic but so backwards when it comes to FD I have learned that the people here know a lot more then he does so glad you are hometesting and hope you and Sammy find a schedule soon :mrgreen:

 

Spreadsheet info is here, it's pretty easy to follow instructions. I managed it without tearing my hair out ;-)

Once you get it set up it's super easy to maintain and you'll love being able to see things at a glance with the color codes. I do anyway =) Some of the ss's around here are pretty cool to look at.

 

yes, I heard that "you're hurting him" line from Vet 3 - the current guy - Sammy is like me - or like my mother always said I was - two people - charming as can be but I wouldn't mess with him. He'll turn on you if you cross whatever line it is he's established - completely different from my other two cats. Fact is he's tolerated all this abuse all these years for the simple reason that he understands exactly what's going on - and has from day one - and wishes to live. What I cannot understand is that people have lived cheek by jowl with animals for 10,000 years and are so stupid or heartless they don't understand that animals think - and pretty much feel exactly the way we do for exactly the same reasons. All you have to do is watch them to understand that.

 

yeah, I liked that color-coded business. I don't quite undetand it but I liked it.

 

You are so funny!! My old vet and the CSVC(center for specialized vet care, westbury) told me not to bg test Moonie either-
For the 1st 11 months, I urine tested with glucotest , and all I did was plow thru clumps of pee, never really knowing where Moonie's BG was at a given moment..I believe that Moonie could have been OTJ, if only she had cooperated instead of freaking out every time I touched her then, and if I had been braver!! Oh well, what was was & what is is, & she iz fine now.
I was on the Alternative Monitoring forum for a long time--It sopped when I came here & not on this new board now--But I still help where needed. I am the Pee Queen still! :mrgreen:
Her ear looks quite beautiful & unless you use 4x glasses. cannot see the latest little spots where I tested--She has bootiful ears!
SO Glad I finally did test, when a member here came over & showed me how to test Moonie!! She is still my hero for that, but is shy :lol: about it!! That's how it is here--we all look after each other, in so many ways!!

 

Boy, oh, boy don't I know that.

 

I have laughed out loud SEVERAL times reading this condo both today and yesterday. Marureen, you are quite a hoot.
:lol:

 

I have to be. Cats are a very tough audience. They keep reminding me they are gods and like that mere mortal Queen Victoria are not amused.

 

Can anybody look into their crystal balls and predict how Sammy's numbers might run. And suggest what I might be up against at 5 o'clock tomorrow morning when you all better be in bed?

 

http://www.snopes.com/photos/animals/jasmine.asp