Serious health concern high GL + vomitting liquid

Hello all,


Think I don't think I need that much introduction on this forum, many I've been following and helping me
A LOT in the recovery of Small Kitty !

Just when I though there was just some adjustment to be made in order to put things back on the right track I arrived at the apartment to night with something very concerning. Right on the floor was a puddle of transparent liquid with just a little bit of particle. I'd seen that before so I cleaned it up and went away with preparing food and testing setup.

This is where the hit came, I got an all time high result 514.80 (see spreadsheet). I just want to stop bothering you guys at any sign that something is wrong, you've helped me a lot already.

So I went on the forum to find things on my own. This is where I found that :

http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/not-eating-vomitting-glucose-high.152096/

Small Kitty is showing exactly what was going on there and very frightening is the following :

http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/a-primer-on-pancreatitis.83108/

1- Vomitting liquid
2 : didn't answer ''food call'', was hiding (witch he never do)
3: High GL 514.80 tonight (see spreadsheet)
4: a palpable abdominal mass : Small intestine is bigger than his 1 pound heavier Big Brother.
5: dehydration (92%) : Haven seen him drink this week but I'm just hare after office hour.
Still administering 60CC plama Lite subcutaneous 12h interval.

When he finally came back from hiding he ate well (brough some Fancy Feast Festin Paté
and he did well. He doesn't seem to be doing that bad but I concern he's hiding pain.

Ketone was negative 2 days ago and bladder stimulation doesn't bring any urine so I cannot test.

Do you guys think this mean there has been internal damage to his organs because
of my Vet's negligence ? I called this morning, had the cell phone on me all day and he
never called back. Called again 2h. ago indicating cat was vomiting liquid and no call.
That basically mean that I'm on my own for now.

Am I freaking out for nothing ? What about this pain killer medecine Buprenorphine
that could reduce pain and bring down GL. Is the version for human the same as the
Vet prescribed one ?

I'm so worried.. that thing su..

 

Have you been able to get a ketone test today? Once a kitty has had ketones it is so much more important to be testing daily if not several times a day, especially when numbers are high.

Also it is possible that he may have pancreatitis which is common with unregulated diabetic kitties.

"
What are the symptoms of pancreatitis?

Cats tend to have a more low-grade smoldering type of pancreatitis than dogs. Cats often show lethargy, dehydration, loss of appetite, and weight loss. Less than 50% of cats with pancreatitis have vomiting and abdominal pain as a symptom. Fever, an increased heart rate, jaundice and changes in breathing patterns may also be seen.

Animals with more severe disease can develop heart arrhythmias, sepsis (body-wide infection), difficulty breathing, and a life-threatening condition called disseminated intravascular coagulation (DIC), which results in multiple hemorrhages. If the inflammation is severe, organs surrounding the pancreas could be 'autodigested' by pancreatic enzymes released from the damaged pancreas and become permanently damaged."

It is so hard to say since many problems resemble other problems. If he seems dehydrated and you still have subQ fluids it would be a good idea to give him 60-100 cc if he has not had any already today.

 

Ask any questions you want. You are not bothering anyone. I would continue to keep trying the vet or another even if it's an ER. Should it be pancreatitis it can be treated with meds which should be started so it doesn't progress. Keep us posted.

 

You might want to consider getting a Blood ketone test meter like the FreeStyle Precision Neo

The strips for ketones are kind of expensive, but you won't use them as often as you use the blood glucose strips and it can make it easier for you to keep track of Small Kitty's ketone status

 

What are the blood ketone meters for usa?

 

Getting Ketone has prooved to be difficult since las result, that was 2 days ago. I now know
where the bladder is and very carefully it's been possible to get some urine last week-end.
But now it doesn't work. This morning the bladder was full, I know because it was pretty big
but massaging, pressing with thumb and index toward he penis proved useless. Another
member of the forum (scoobydoox) gave me the name of an affordable knowledgeable vet.
It's a 15km ride by cab so I'll be there at opening hour Saterday.

Question :
If I go see that vet, am I going to start all over again from the beginning ? It would be my 3rd
vet and I think it's making the original thief one happy to see me back there after a file transfer.
All I got from the last one was the diagnostic of ketoacidosis with what it would cost me.
I had asked him specific blood test that he never did. What I got from the 400$ visit I don't
know (there was some food, anti flea medicine for the summer go give both cats but that's it).

Hope not to turn full circle again.

 

Take all your paperwork you already have from the other vet and you can have paperwork faxed between the vets as well. They will most likely do there assessment first. If he isnt passing any urine it sounds like he is blocked again. That will need addressed. Call them tomorrow and see what time they close on friday and if possible to see you friday instead of sat.

 

Updated spread sheet; +2 gave a drop of 7mmol (126 mg/dl) - 388.8. Is Lantus gearing up as quickly has 2h ?

About the Lantus Forum, is this group only helpful in regularizing or ''crisis'' is their business as well ?
Also, I guess that lab test, is a must. Do they need full history or latest is fine ?

 

The more information you can provide them the better. Current history and some of past should be fine and they will take it from there with the tests they do.

 

I'll order a couple, it's mentioned they are FREE !

Yes, this is a good idea, setting up the litter box set for urine gatering made Big Brother pee
on the carpet in front and Small Kitty doesn't appreciate bladder playing game as well.

I'll try to find the price of these strips.

Thanks

 

How long has it been since he peed? Is there anyway you could go into work late and take kitty to the vet first thing in morning?

 

Scoodydoox,

First thanks for the reference, I think that getting out of the island will make consultation less expensive. The
place where I go have is 5 consultation rooms clinic with 6 technicians and 4 Vets, lab... This machine has to be paid my poor guys
like me. If I need to pay 20$ of cab but the recommendation are better. Internal organ state is what I need to know
about. Chemical will come soon but the hardware is my big concern now. If you car is due for oil change but
the transmission has lost all it's grip due to bad shifting you're stupid spending money on that.

Just hope Small Kitty just need an oil filter cleaning

 

Small Kitty is gone running outside he must not be feeling too bad. Big Brother will probably follow him
soon but I'm not going to be there as it's time for bed. Still feeling the last week 72h sprint to death (to prevent it actually)

Thanks everybody, ll keep you posted
.

 

You mentioned you got flea control from your vet.

Here is where I get mine. The mail to USA but I don't know about Canada. You can call them, they have great customer service. The meds are from the manufacturer, so no worries there. They are cheaper at least the one I get. I've been getting them here for years, it takes about 3 weeks for me to get it.

http://www.vetshopmax.com

 

The "Health" group you are currently posting in is where most everybody starts out, but once you get the basics down, we like to have you move to the specific insulin support group for your insulin

The Lantus Forum is full of people (a lot of whom also post here) that use Lantus and have the most experience using it

 

Bonjour, Sébastien,

When trying to decide which vet to go to ring ahead and find out whether they can do a SNAP fPL test in-house. This would give a yes/no answer to whether Small Kitty has pancreatitis. If it were positive, you'd then have an option to get a Spec fPL test to determine the severity of the inflammation. (Test needs to be done at an external lab.)

Try feeding Small Kitty little and often as best you can; small, frequent meals can help to stop stomach acid build-up and may help with the vomiting problem.


Mogs
.

 

GL at a all time high this morning, 32.8, heading to the Vet recommended by scoobydox
Something very wrong is going on. Small Kitty has eaten and drink a little but no urine.

Hope it's not final

 

Sending healing vibes for Small Kitty. Please keep us posted on the vet visit.


ETA: You said in an earlier post that Small Kitty goes outside. Is there any chance he has gotten into anything, such as a neighbors cat or dog food?

 

Fingers crossed for Small Kitty.

 

Good thought vines sent. Anxiously waiting for report.

 

What's going on :
My only way to get to the clinic that would take care of my cat was asking a ride to my father (I dont drive due to epilepsy).
Answer was an absolute no but he had good points. I've alreay had to call sick because of Small Kitty, spend a huge load of
energy and money already, that what's been done is already way more than anybody would have done. Getting back to the
office was the reasonable thing to do. I called the thief vet when their clinic opened and explained I ABSOLUTELY neede
to talk to him, not the young technician. They did transfer me to the vet. Here is what it told me, would like to know if this
is making sens.

He told me that a cat with urinary blockage would not eat nor drink, that if he did the situation was not that alarming,
even with no urination for 2 days (at home at least). He had some meetings and told me that the technicians will play
with it's abdomen and see. If emergency he will be able to take care of it at 14.00h.

It was not time to fight, told him it was ok but was in rage. I called the other clinic and they said that is was a 911 if
no urination for 2 days, the we would bypass all clients and address the situation.

My office is letting me go at 12.00h, ma father will pass by and will go straight there. Just hope the litter box will
have some good news.

So what do you think about this cat eating and drinking not being in trouble.

Thanks for you're recon fort.

 

About a month ago my cat was straining to urinate, crying and even squatting outside the litter box, which is something he never does. However, he had been eating and drinking. I called the emergency vet and asked if this could be an infection and could it wait until the morning. They advised me that it could be an infection OR a blockage, and they couldn't tell without examining him. I took him and luckily it was an infection. However, the possibility of a blockage had been there, even though he had been eating and drinking.

I really do not agree with what the vet said....I really would shop around for a new one.

 

If it is a urinary blockage then that is an urgent condition. Has Small Kitty peed at all??? Even a little bit? If he is only peeing small bits then it could be a UTI (urinary tract infection) but if he has not peed at all then there is a good chance it is a blockage. If there has been no pee at all I would definitely take him as soon as you are able to to have him seen.

From the response and lack of concern of the regular vet, I would suggest trying to find a different vet as soon as you can. Just because a kitty is still eating and drinking I would not rule out a blockage

 

Small Kitty has been on antibiotic for 1 month trying to resolve urinary infection and 2 weeks ago it was still going on..

 

When Small Kitty was on the antibiotics was he able to pee normally...was he straining to go and only peeing small amounts or was he peeing normally? How long ago did he finish the antibiotics?

 

Bladder had only been filled by a 3rd of it's capacity and amount of urine was very little (spot the size of a golf ball) in the litter box. Getting urine sample was very hard.

 

It is possible that Small Kitty still has a UTI. If he has not had any antibiotics for 10 days or more, I would ask for a urine culture test. They could do a needle aspiration draw and then the sample would have to be sent to another lab and would be able to tell exactly what sort of infection there is and what antibiotic would work with it. Sometimes an antibiotic is given that is not specific for the type of bacteria.

However if Small Kitty is not peeing at all right now that definitely would need to be dealt with first.

 

He was there to eat this morning and purr when I put him on my knees, he didn't ran away and it seemed he was not feeling so bad.
Is this something a cat in pain would do or is he very good actor ?

 

Some kitties will purr even if they are in pain. It is a way of trying to soothe themselves. The fact that he ate and did not run away and hide is good though.

 

If you palpate around where his bladder is, does he act painful?

 

No, not at all, I tried to get urine yesterday for ketone test he wasn't complaining, just didn't seem to like it. And I squeezed it solid like a vet would do.

 

False alarm...

Got my father to come so we could go to the 24/7 pet medical care clinic 2h. ago.

Something like 20 min into the ride two things happened at 5 min. interval :

1: The vet finally called saying that if I was to be there in 5 min he would address the situation
2: Small Kitty did FULL RELEASE in his travel bag, a full load of it. Urine is not something you
particularly like to smell, but I DID at this time.

All the word catheter, anesthesia, crystal, pain killer... $$$$... JUST MELT DOWN !

Even then, while having the cat into the bag I went to the vet office to have blood test performed,
radiography and so on. He had no explanation but said it was fine. His answer on why Little Kitty
is not eating is because GL is too high we we'll raise up shots to 2.0 am 2.0 pm, that the food and liquid
problem will be addressed in 2 weeks when this will go into action. (his theorie has always been that
Lantus will give reliable results just after 14 days or more.

So full testing this week-end at every ??? interval and put on a spread sheet.

When he asked me about food he was ok with Purina MD but the world Friskes made his
eyes open wide. He told me to stop this right away and see his counter with full load of cat
food at 2$ / can.

At least I'm happy final shot is excluded but still, the answer to these recent deadly numbers
are unanswered, he just ran away and left me with his 18 yo technician.

There is one thing that is good now. I've full lab results dating today on hands. That's going
to help the Lantus group I guess.

Need a beer now.

See ya
at ??? hours interval (think he didn't mention). The food and liquid intake is

 

Small Kitty and his Brother, little baster frightening his care taker

 

Yeah, this is right where it was huge this morning and very tiny now.. finally, after more then 24h.. Chem lat test seems to say it's alright.

 

how do you tell them apart? they look like twins in the second pic.

 

The ends of the legs, one is small the other has more white at the end of the legs. There comes the names, Small Kitty and Big Brother. The size and the white end of the legs + weight. Small Kitty has almost full black legs, just a little bit of white.

Here's a picture taken today. Look at the face, it has melted since previous picture. (not mine, his )

 

Texedo mom : Was told there was no infection today. Last dose of antibiotic would have been today but Vet said there was no
infection, that this was ok...

 

My cat had a sister that was colored the same as yours kittys except had a white part on the nose.

 

Your kitties are so handsome...just like my Tuxie kitty (My Maxie is pretty since she is a girl kitty )

 

Yes, handsome they are, that's what making it hard to break this beautiful duo. But as we are speaking the duo is somewhat broken. I can't find Small Kitty, been looking everywere and it seems he's just gone. The same thing happened yesterday, it came out of nowhere just when I was going to search outside, but now there is no room to go out, the apartment is closed up.

He might come out of the dark some time this evening, I Hope. Shooting time is 19.00.

 

The little baster just came back on time for his now 2 unit injection.

He's not ready to get away from the apartment
now :

 

I'll keep you posted with this new 2 unit dose just recommended by vet.

 

Please have a read of Cat Info as regards food so you can ask the vet to explain just how the pricey alleged prescription (nothing prescription in it) is supposed to be better than the Friskies.

 

scoobydoox
My god this would have been a hell of a couple. Little Kitty is cut off but the match would probably have been nice of a result !!!
Gizmo's sister looks THE SAME !

 

Tuxedo Mom. I passed lot's of my time as a child in the Quebec's country side (Mont-Laurier) and people there were calling cats with that king of color (black and white), ''Chat Vache'' (Cow cats). This was back in the 80s, there was no special treatment as we are giving our cats at the forum. They were eating left over food, dead animals, mice in farms... And they were living up to 17 years. What the hell went wrong ??? Don't understand, might be like people in big cities, they become as cold as ice after a while

 

They love it. I tried to explained the particularities of cats food needed (carb, protein...). There was a blockage, his reply was
this is just fast food, body filler only good to get GL raising. STROP THAT RIGHT NOW, he told me...

Spec of these Fancy Feast Tender Liver and chicken Pâté looks beautiful to me. Protein is 11%, 5% fat and most important no weed, just meat....

Is this what you're feeding your cat with ?

 

Saterday Morning, Small kitty was able to jump over the home made barricade last night. Will need full scale confinement I guess..

Don't know if it's a bouce but the new 2.0 unit gave yesterday PM brought a beautiful 17.00 mmol. This morning : 31.9 mmoll

 

What a funny name..Chat Vache'' (Cow cats) I like it!

I think that a long time ago when they were eating mice and dead animals it was closer to their natural diet....and they got much more exercise then too. Just like people they now eat junk food and get lazy and more diseases happen.

Many vets have very little training in nutrition and they are brain-washed by the pet food companies that sell the expensive prescription foods. Purina DM wet is lower in carbs, but really is not better than the Friskies and Fancy Feast pates. There is nothing "magic" or special in the prescription foods other than the vets make money selling it. If a kitty has been eating a low quality high carb dry food, they will definitely do better on Purina DM wet, but only because they are getting away from eating dry food.

Sounds like it is time to put Small Kitty on house arrest.

 

Yeah she was an awesome cat to. Sadly she passed away at 7 years old from cancer.

 

Shareholders.


Mogs
.

 

Too insulated from the consequences of their actions.


Mogs
.

 

I am replying to @Photorecon who sent me a PM asking about food.

Lots of us feed Fancy Feast. It is perfectly acceptable and often something cats will eat when they turn their noses up at premium foods. Premium foods can be fine and low carb, but often you are paying for cranberries and sweet potatoes - foods cats don't eat in real life. Fancy feast has byproducts but I have always figured their food in the wild - mice- have byproducts too......

Stick with the pates. I add warm water and make a gravy as sometimes they don't like the pate texture at first.

You probably have gotten this warning before but be sure you are testing - in my cat, a change to wet food meant a drop of 100 points overnight.

 

@Oliver :
Thanks for the answer on Fancy Feast, my thought was that this was junk food for cat. I'll give it a try and see. I could not
find the Classic version recommended but who knows, it might be the same think.

Also, I went to the link you posted on your reply (http://felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/protocol-for-prozinc-pzi.109077/)
and something very confusing is mentioned there :

''First small amounts of low carb food can be given to raise the blood glucose levels.''

This is quite confusing to me. My weapon to bring Small Kitty's GL down to normal level was feeding him
with low carb food like I've seen everywhere for diabetic cats diet on the internet. Purina DM (1.0 Carb level), that I use in
combination with ''low carb junk'' (because they (Small Kitty and Big Brother), seem to develop indifference to these after
a little while. Event that some time the mix doesn't seem to work. They jumped on Raw food for 3 days and are not
even looking at it now. The only thing the are not turning their nose on is Purina Dry Food DM (for diabetic) but
I try to give them very little as this is probably the origin of the entire problem. IAM Dry was their food for years.
When I tried to introduce wet it was not working at all.

So is my understanding of lower the carb food the better wrong ? Should I reverse and seek for high Carb ?
If you look at my spread sheet, you'll see that Small Kitty has been in the deadly zone quite a few times.

Thanks for the clarification.

Sébastien

 

I think that sentence was dealing with lowering numbers and possible hypos. If the number drops into low ranges (50 on a human meter/68 on a pet meter), the advice is to first give a little regular low carb food. The reasoning is that, until their pancreas is working again, any food brings them up a bit. Low carb will increase the levels less than high carb would. First try low carb to stop the drop into dangerous ranges. If that isn't enough, and the levels continue to drop, give a tablespoon of the gravy off high carb food (needed for your hypo kit) to see if that will raise the levels. If that doesn't work, then honey on the gums. The idea is to feed the drop with food, trying the lesser carb first so you aren't dealing with a sugar high after the hypo. Does that make sense?

Low carb lowers blood glucose levels more than higher carb food. Some cats are hyper sensitive and even a few percentage of carbs can make a difference. For some, the 8 - 10% carb range is fine. So the first advice for a diabetic cat is to change the food from 20-40% high carb food to 8-10% low carb food and the blood glucose levels should lower.

I think you are using Lantus? Be aware that the protocols for Lantus and ProZinc are very different, and specific to that insulin. The hypo info is generally the same except that hypos can last longer on Lantus.

 

Sébastien, in Canada the Fancy Feast Classics are called "Pate's" instead of "Classics"

Here's what you should look for http://www.walmart.ca/en/ip/fancy-feast-pate-assortment-cat-food-variety-pack/6000195560970

 

@Chris & China

GOTCHA ! Went to Walmart this afternoon bought these Fancy Feast "Pate's". Small Kitty loves it.
He's eating like mad now. Hope there is no down effect with this kind of food, most importantly
fat. Big brother likes it as well but since Small Kitty's starvation he has been eating double and is
now becoming pretty big. Don't know if it's the increase in dose of insulin starting Friday but
GL has dropped and Small Kitty seems more like and healthy cat.

If you see the spreadsheet you'll see spikes, this is sometime, I think, because he's asking for food
between doses.

Can this scrabble results in my GL curve ? Should I stop feeding between doses ?


BTW, another cause I can see for the improvement is the fact that they've been inside since
Friday. I thought they were staying in the confinement of my neighbor's backyard but they're
not, I pretty sure. Someone is probably feeding them without any concern of the health condition.

I might buy a gps tracker for cats to know where they're going and propose the person to stop
feeding. I don't think it's good to keep both of them inside when they were used to go play outside
every single nights. Rain, thunder, ice, snow storm.. never stopped them. They would always take s
ome air and come back at 06.00h tight for food.

Don't want to end up having another diabetic cat because he's obese and or depress...

Thanks again for all your help.

Sébastien

 

Well the food is lower in carbs so you need to keep doing the blood glucose tests and watch small kittys numbers to watch the dosing. Are both kittys diabetic?
Keeping them inside is a lot safer for them. not that you would want to try this but some people use harness and leash to take them out and then keep them indoor rest of time. http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/29/garden/training-a-cat-to-walk-on-a-leash.html

 

It's actually better for her to have multiple small meals instead of just two big ones...it's less stressful on the pancreas.

The only time it's really important that she not have food is for the 2 hours before shot time....so that when you get the PS number, it's not influenced by food.

This is where good notes will help you. Some of us try to get all their food in before nadir since after nadir, the insulin is wearing off so adding carbs at that point can "slam the brakes" on the insulin....but some cats can eat all the way to +10 without having it cause any problems

The only way for you to know which works best for Small Kitty is to keep good notes and watch her numbers. You can either put when/what you feed over in the "Remarks" section or maybe put an * in the cells when you feed

Both your kitties will do better if they're kept indoors only (or only allowed out on a leash or in an enclosed space). If you're handy with a hammer and nails, you could consider building a "catio" with fencing to keep them in but allow them out for some fresh air. There are all kinds of plans on different designs for catios on the internet. Here's some pictures of some really nice ones!!

Cats that go outside risk all kinds of things....being attacked by other animals, getting hit by cars and getting into food they shouldn't be getting are only a few. Obesity can be controlled by how much they eat and "depression" can be cured by active play in the house

This is one of China's favorite toys called "Da Bird" and she'll run and jump and play until she can barely move!

 

Would you please go ahead and start a new thread? This one is getting pretty long.

Usually what we do is post a new thread every day with the date/cats name and the AMPS number in the subject line....as the day goes on, if we get other tests in, we "edit" the subject line and add the new test results (You can see examples of this all over the Lantus forum)

That way the people who scan the forum can see at a glance how each cat is doing and if they see something that concerns them, respond sooner.

Just put the link to the prior post in the body of the daily post...that way it's easy to go back and see what's been going on with Small Kitty

 

That cat looks like Lily!

 

I am so pleased for you both, Sébastien; it is such a relief when a cat who has been struggling to eat gets their appetite back!


Mogs
.

 

You're right, always spiky at the morning but seems to be doing well now, after 4 months. Small Kitty as
only 3 months experience. Hope these black and red spots will go out of his spreadsheet one day.
At least he's eating all what comes under its nose.

Very happy, faithful.

S/bastien

 

Lucky me no, not 2 weeks ago. I'ved tested my meter for accuracy on Big Brother and he
was at 4.0mmol.

 

I also let my kiitties out. They love being outside! I love watching their joy as they roll around in the grass and run around in the sunshine.
My cat who was just diagnosed with diabetes doesn't go out as much as he did when he was younger. When he does go out, he just stays around the property, so I am not terribly concerned that he is being fed. I am considering getting him a little tag to put on his collar which says 'Diabetic: Don't Feed Me' or something to that effect.

I also tried to leash train them, but it is much more difficult to get cats to tolerate a harness and leash who already enjoy the unrestricted freedom of the outdoors.

 

This is a big concern to me, I feel I'm confining them when the are hungry to go out. I have 2 cats and
one has been peeing all around the house since confinement. I've build up a fence to prevent them from
going to far but Small Kitty (my diabetic cat) is able to cross the fence no matter what. Once I get
a gps tracking collar I'll see where they are going because seems they were less lazy when going out.
Big Brother (the non diabetic one) is getting bigger and bigger. I don't think they were being fed out
because one week in made no difference in number, but the risk is there

Hope I will find some sort of good compromise for both pleasure and safety.

 

This is what I bought for my kitty to go on her collar https://www.amazon.co.uk/Have-Diabe...d=1463335546&sr=8-4&keywords=diabetes pet tag It came with free engraving so I put my number, my vets number and 'microchipped' on it. I can't confine her to the house and she enjoys time outside but I wanted to be sure if someone found her unwell or injured they could ring me or the vet straight away. My experience of cats is that if they want to escape they will!

 

That's nice, quite evocative ! Problem might be who knows that diabetic cats need careful feeding.
Once I get the numbers right I'll let them go out, if summer can arrive this year... Sounds we're in
still in October, so cold. I leave the bedroom patio door open during the night with curtain closed
and I need to put 2 extra layers of blanket...

Hope summer will arrive with stable numbers for Small Kitty.