? SLGS approach and dosage

I know that the plan for me was to go with the 2u for a week or so to see what happens. Well so far from testing his numbers do not seem to be going below 300. I am worried that the 2u is not enough for him as I was seeing the 200s atleast with the 5u. Is it possible that he may need more and that I should try to go 5.5u instead of sticking with 2u? I know most everyone here has cats within healthy weight range and I'm sure I'm probably one of few on here that has a 21 pound cat. I am just needing advice and support and what to do because it will kill me to see him stay in the 400s or drop slightly into the 300s. I have smelled his breath and checked for symptoms and warning signs of Ketones and I do not see any warning signs. His breath smells fine and he drinks alot so not dehydrated, not lethargic and eats within 12 hours.

 

Try to hang in there a little longer

His numbers might not be where you want them right now, but they're also not really any higher than they were at 5 units

 

It can take up to 5 days for Lantus to stabilize its effects when you have changed the dose.

So, I bring out of the closet, just for you (and everyone who has had those feelings!!) ...

... patience pants (borrowed from Deb).

 

I myself would keep the 2 units for 2-3 days and then increase if yo are getting the same little drop in BG

 

But only increase it by 1/2 unit. You will stay at the new dose for about a week before increasing it again. If additional increases are needed, only increase by 1/2 unit and wait a week between increases. You are looking for the optimal dose that will keep the BG levels under control.

 

Well so far from experimenting it was nothing under 5u. I know most of you would say well if he was my cat I wouldn't be feeding him dry and instead would be feeding him FF. Well I tried that obviously for long enough time to notice any changes and unfortunately I didn't see any. Maybe the 21 pounds is working against me apparently and who knows what else. Just a shame that I can't get any results like everyone else is having on here.

 

You you are getting results similar to my Badger. Usually his PS are in the 400's with occasional 500 and very infrequent 300's. He also eats bth canned and dry. Sometimes he does not eat much canned so I give him dry. He is not on about 1.5 units N and 3.6 units ProZinc twice daily.

 

Yeah I figure I am the underdog on here. Just not sure if the low dose approach is going to work for him. He'll probably need new insulin since this batch I have probably isn't as effective. I haven't tried Pro Zinc or Levemir yet. Tired of switching when Lantus is supposed to be the go-to insulin for getting cats in remission. Underdog

 

For some cats there is not magic insulin. I went through all the insulins for Badger except Vetsulin (Lantus, levemir, BCP) as well as the current N and ProZinc. Nothing seems to work that well with him.

 

I'm posting against my better judgement because based on previous threads, "Have to start over with Lantus and any help with usused Lantus Pens?", "What dose should I go with?" and "Young Again Zero Carb Food"... I don't think you want to hear what I have to say... just sayin'. However, I'm a sucker for punishment when it comes to kitties and when I hear this level of frustration from a caregiver.

Poopers has diabetes. Diabetes is not terminal. It's a treatable disease! Does regulation happen over night or anywhere close? No way. Too many of our caregivers expect too much too soon after they implement changes (big mistake and source of frustration & depression). Is there a fair amount of trial and error involved? You can count on it!

Something that needs to be said about dry food... in particular, Young Again,... the only food I know of that some claim have brought their cat into remission. As has already been said, Young Again does serve a purpose when transitioning dry food addicts to an all wet food diet. It might even help to entice kitty to eat when kitty has stopped eating. I'd even go as far to say YA may be the best alternative when kitty will not eat a wet food diet. Bottom line, the YAZC is a lower carb dry food. It's the "lower carb" part of it that definitely helps in when it comes to treating diabetes, but the "dry" part of of it is not good for overall feline health.

So let's apply some basic logic to it when it comes to cats. Cats are carnivores. We already know cats thrive from a protein enriched diet derived from meats (not plant-based protein). We already know a cat's thirst drive is low. They're not going to drink enough on their own. These are givens.

YA is not a "miracle" food like some portray it to be. Something not said when you read about these "miracles"... all too many of these "miracles" happen when the caregiver switches from a high carb dry food (26% carbs - 36% carbs - 37% carbs). Well geez. YA claims to only have 0% carbs (6% carbs according to others) from calories. It doesn't take an Einstein to figure out the reduced intake of carbs certainly played a part in regulating kitty's blood glucose. The huge reduction in carb intake might/could even be the catalyst to throwing kitty into remission. It's kitty consuming fewer carbs that helps. It's not that we're looking at a miracle food that's responsible for controlling diabetes and/or dropping every kitty's BG numbers. If kitty is already eating a low carb diet (or is a carb sensitive kitty) you're not going to see that kind of major difference so I say, save the halleluiahs (and your $) when it comes to YA!

So much for the "miracle food". You're LUCKY. Poopers will eat canned/wet food. You have no idea how many members envy that fact... again, just sayin'.

Lest we not forget: the "dry" part of of it is not good for overall feline health. I don't know about you, but I prefer to treat the whole cat (as well as my other cats) not just the diabetes. When a cat eats wet food willingly, why open the door to other health issues because of feeding dry? Just doesn't make sense to me. A world renowned expert on feline nutrition, Lisa Pierson DVM, explains all this better than I ever could on her web site: CatInfo.org.

While the right diet helps (low-carb wet) for all the reasons mentioned on Dr. Lisa's we site, it's insulin that is needed to regulate kitty's diabetes in most cases. If you're still with me: I'm going to be very candid and frank so if you don't want to hear what I have to say... please stop reading... right here... right now.

You're using a good insulin. FWIW, as I see it, what's lacking is a basic and good understanding of how lantus works. Lantus is a depot insulin. In other words, it has a cumulative effect... each dose builds upon the next. You're not going to see the numbers you'd like to see until you get close to a good dose or what some of us call a "break through dose". The typical scenario is to continue with dose increases in small increments (usually 0.25 unit) with not much happening until bam!... you've reached a break through dose and things start happening. BUT... don't get too excited. Kitty's numbers may go up again. Don't get discouraged. One has to have patience and continue to chip away at the BG numbers.

For Poopers' sake, I strongly suggest the following course of action: read the "Stickys" at the top of the Lantus & Levemir Insulin Support Group, ask questions, and trust the methods practiced in the group. They work, but it takes time. Lantus/Levemir dosing largely requires a methodical approach based on numbers at the lowest part of the cycle. On the other hand, if you prefer a "shoot the numbers down as you see them" approach... you'd probably be happier using one of the "P" insulins (PZI or Prozinc). The "P" insulins are more flexible in that you're able to adjust the dose to the preshot number and nadir.

No matter what path you take, there's a steep learning curve and it may take weeks, months, or even years before you're happy with Pooper's numbers, but don't ever forget... it's never "just" about the BG numbers. Look at the whole cat. How's he feeling? Is he happy? Otherwise healthy? There's a whole lot more to our kitties than "just" diabetes...


I guess I got a little long-winded. If you're still reading... thank you.
I have house guests and will be gone most of the day and evening, but just wanted to get a few thoughts out there before I left the house. I can only hope you'll take my thoughts in the spirit intended. Take what you want, discard the rest. Your cat. Your decisions.

Hope you have a good day!

 

I respect your thoughts and I see how he is and what I am up against. I respect your thoughts on YA as with so many others who do not agree with dry food even if it appears to be very low in carbs because it is a dry food and dehydrated. Well I am doing this because I have followed everyone who said to feed wet food because its a hydrated food and won't cause a cat to be dehydrated or have any of those problems associated with dry diet. However, Pooper's does not crave it much nor do I see his numbers drop much at all. His numbers were staying the same on that as it was on the dry food. In fact, when I took him to the Vet they said he had so much tartar and that the wet food does cause plaque buildup and no she wasn't trying to sell my dry food because I wouldn't buy the Vet food anyways. I understand that dry food does not prevent tartar either like some people claim that it does. I do know that dry food does not stick to the teeth like wet food does and that could have played a role in giving him cat oral problems and infection to some extent.

With that said, I'm sure I'll probably disappoint many on here since most go the wet food route and therefore probably get more help due to following everyone's suggestions to feeding a wet food diet like FF or friskies. I however believe everything these people say at YA because they seem very honest and upfront and tell it like it is. They aren't trying to sell me BS just to sell their products. They really do care about my cats and that they want them to be healthy and happy and to not have carbs at all. Yes I told the owner Micheal about the carb calculator and that despite his product being 0% carbs it still listed 4% carbs and 6% carbs in the Mature formula. However, he said that there are no digestible carbs that would cause a glucose spike and he went over the ingredients in the food and told me what they do to the cats body. We probably spent 40 mins on the phone going over things and I think other cat food places wouldn't spend that much time and concern on their own foods. Bottom line is that if I am dead wrong about this food then I'll remove myself from here because I know that I would be hearing I told you so but I am very stubborn and when it comes to these new foods that supposedly have great reviews and test results then I want to be a part of it and see if it works for my cats. IF it doesn't then I will address it to the company and be sure to report it where I can so that others see it. However, I do not believe that'll happen because this food has lower carbs then any FF or friskie diet and the only difference I see is the moisture but makes sense that cats on this diet won't eat as much of this food and so they drink water and the less carbs will not make them dehydrated. I'm obviously not wording it like he did but it made sense on how he said it compared to other dry foods out there. All the years he has been an architecture with creating foods and taking care of cats he has never had any dehydrated or problematic cat due to his food. All the cats he took care of have had great urinary outputs and healthy specific gravity compared to what people would get on a wet food diet due to the food. Yeah you guys may say he is just making that up but I trust what they say. IF not then I'll visit Stacy, Minnesota and talk to them face to face to find out why they lied to us if that were the case. In any case, I'll go with this for now and see if the claims hold true.

 

Feed what you need to feed. Every cat is different, so the YA may work great, or not, or make things worse. You'll find out by using it.

Each of us is basically conducting a single subject research study, finding out what works for our own cats. Sometimes, it lines up with other cats too; sometimes, it doesn't.

Giving the same dose of insulin, every 12 hours, for a minimum of 3 to 5 full days, with mid-cycle testing is needed to use Lantus or Levemir properly. Their effects build up in the cat and the effects overlap shot to shot. When you are inconsistent, it can result in more erratic numbers.

If that won't work for you, switch to a non-depot insulin such as Prozinc or BCP PZI. These allow you to develop a sliding scale based on your testing data once you have enough tests to know how much of a drop you'll get from a particular starting glucose with a specific dose.

 

Wishing you and Poopers the best!

 

I am also going to be frank but not about diet.

I won't spend any time trying to convince you about the food. What I will say is that you aren't getting the other part of the equation that Jill is trying to stress. You don't understand how the insulin works and Poopers numbers are what they are because you are not dosing him correctly or, IMHO, giving him enough insulin. I see what you did today with him and frankly, it is dangerous and shows you don't understand how insulin works. Insulin is not a medicine. It is a hormone. Each kitty's body is different in how they process it.

As @Jill & Alex (GA) said, Lantus and levemir are depot insulins and it takes time and patience. Believe me, I was one, as a new member, who wanted to see results much faster than we did. If there is one thing that FD has taught me, it is patience. You need to learn it, too. It isn't easy because it's possible that Poopers might need a much higher dose of insulin than he is getting. But you cannot get there overnight. You cannot give fur shots, reshoot, and then four hours later give a whopping big dose. None of us reshoot after a fur shot because you might smell and feel insulin, but you have no idea how much you might have gotten in. Lantus and levemir improperly used can cause hypoglycemic numbers that can last over 16 hours. Many of us have sat up with new members all night long helping them fight the low numbers. I see you entitled the one condo "don't be mad at me". I doubt anyone is mad at you but I feel sorry for Poopers because he is not a science experiment.

If you want to feed dry food, fine....your decision. If you want to help Poopers, I'd really try hard to listen to the dosing advice we can give you. We have a lot of experience here and we've helped a lot of people get their cats regulated ...and many have gone into remission. But your first goal should be getting him regulated and you won't be able to do that with hopping around his dose and raising by the increments you are raising by.

I know I am being very candid and you might think I am speaking harshly but I feel it's the only way you might perhaps listen about the dosing. And that is my main concern right now. I would hate to see Poopers end up at the ER on a dextrose drip as they try to pull his numbers up. You might think that is not a possibility but believe me, numbers can drop fast from being very high. Please take advantage of our knowledge and caring that we have to offer.

 

My kitty was diagnosed with diabetes a month ago and I was very fortunate to find this forum in order to help manage her disease, because I knew nothing about it. I am an impatient person by nature, and want instant results, but I decided to concede to those on this forum with much more experience than I (which is just about everyone), and so far have been pleased with the results. If left to my own devices, I would have increased and increased Lulu`s dosage hoping for lower numbers. But I listened to those whose knowledge and experience exceeded my own, took it gradually, and lo and behold, today`s numbers are in the green and blue. I am so grateful to the people on this board for guiding me along. They are here for their obvious love of cats and their only motive is to help those of us who need it and to support each other in having happy, healthy kitties.
I`m not naïve enough to believe that everything will be smooth sailing in the future, but am grateful to the people here who will so willingly help me when I ask.
My kitty has always been on a dry food diet; when she was diagnosed, my vet recommended a different dry diet low in carbs. After researching and questioning everything and everybody, I decided to transition towards a wet diet. I know that your mind is made up and I am not here to try to convince you otherwise, just wanting to share my experience.
I hope and pray with all my heart that Poopers comes out of this healthy and happy.

 

"Well I agree with the higher dose. I don't think I should have went back to 2 units from the 5 I was giving. So I am going to do 6 units and go from there. If its not enough in 12 hours then I will go up to 6.5 units. I won't again jump more than .5 units from the point that I am at now."

Not 12 hours - that's nowhere near long enough to see what happens when the dose settles in and his depot fills. You need to wait AT LEAST 6 cycles, preferably 10 as you've not been consistent with his dosing so far. If you keep increasing him every 12 hours, I hate to be quite so frank and you might think I'm being mean, but you're going to end up with a dead cat on your hands when you get home one day because he's going to hypo badly and fast.

 

PLEASE listen to what's being said! In the interest of keeping Poopers safe... I'm begging you to listen to what's being said. Get yourself into the Lantus-Lev ISG and ask for dosing help and follow it. OR call your vet for help.

You don't know or understand the danger you're putting Poopers in by not having a good grasp of how to use Lantus.
I know that's not something you want to do...

 

"What we have here is a failure to communicate." (from the movie Cool Hand Luke)

Please tell us in your own words what you've understood us to suggest you do.

 

Ryan, I'm just curious. Have you ever been diagnosed with a long-term illness? How about someone close to you... say a family member? If so, did a cure or breakthrough happen overnight? Did you or a family member impatiently and randomly experiment and take matters into their own hands, ignoring the advice of doctors and those very experienced in that illness? Were you comfortable with that? Did the diagnosis have a good and happy ending? Were you comfortable with the outcome, if it failed? If you can answer "YES" to all of those questions, then you might be on the right path. Otherwise, probably not. It's very possible that what you consider to be "the cure" might have a worse outcome than the diabetes itself. I truly, truly understand your impatience and desperation. I'm going through it, too, with Hannah. And I hope your story has a happy ending... but in the meantime, I very much worry about what could happen to your beautiful Pooper. At the very least, please keep testing, even if it means doing so in the middle of the night. Hugs and best wishes.