Smiffy lashing out now when I shoot

I have now more or less missed five of Smiffy's injections .. last night she really lashed out at me and I got scratched and bled and this morning she lashed out again just as I thought I had got her settled and she was eating and tried to slip the needle in but she lashed out, the insulin went on her fur and the needle bent ...... shall I leave it tonight to see if I can get her confidence back or leave it a couple of days ...

@Elizabeth and Bertie what shall I do? Leave it for a couple more days or just a day or just leave the one tongiht .. she is really angry with me .. at my wits end with her .....

 

I can't advise you re whether or not to give the injections but I found that my Rosie was like that with me if the last injection had hurt her (because I'd got it wrong) does it seem to hurt her when you jab? I found that I got so stressed about it,especially when I feared I'd be hurt, it made her stressed too and she lashed out more. I made some fingerless gloves (I bought some protective ones later) out of a pair of old thick socks which protected me from scratches and gave me more confidence.
Persevere because they do get used to it, Rosie even let's me test her ears now with no fuss at all and she was a nightmare at first! Xx

 

I sympathise, it's not easy. I think you have to take some very deep breaths and tell yourself it's ok, you can do this... But give yourself a break from FD stuff for the rest of today. It can become overwhelming to the point where everything seems too hard. Can you watch a good film or read some magazines or do something fun today... Then try again this evening? This is as much about you as it is Smiffy and if she senses your anxiety she will be anxious too.
Have to go to work now but see what others say and try to breathe.........

Diana

 

One possibility is that the Caninsulin may not agree with her - or possibly the dose is too high and her body's having to work hard to counter it. (Pure conjecture on the latter - impossible to know without BG data but it is a possibility which needs to be considered for safety reasons.)

Saoirse was OK with the Caninsulin injections for a little while after she was diagnosed (she had very little energy at that time anyway) but not before long she started trying to find the most out-of-reach place possible to hide when it was time for her Caninsulin dose in order to avoid the injection. She also started growling and sometimes hissing at me; highly abnormal behaviour for her.

When Saoirse was switched to Lantus the growling, hissing and hiding all stopped. She has never been overjoyed at getting injections but nowadays she'll whinge at me sometimes when I'm administering her dose - but she still sits patiently and waits for me to give the injection to her; no attempts to avoid the dose. That would never have happened with her on Caninsulin. Saoirse is a much happier cat on Lantus. The difference is like night and day.

Did you mention that you were worried whether Smiffy was unusually lethargic lately? If yes, then I suggest you look at the posts from member Sandrine and myself about clinical signs to look for which could give you some insight into whether the Caninsulin may be disagreeing with Smiffy. If anything there chimes with how Smiffy is behaving let your vet know. I think it advisable to call your vets regardless to let them know that Smiffy is getting very fractious when you're trying to administer her Caninsulin. They may have helpful things to suggest to you.


Mogs


EDITED TO ADD:

Dingbat here neglected to put the thread link (beyond exhausted - brain a bigger mess than normal):

http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/...orse-symptoms-not-due-to-hypoglycemia.153310/

Have a read through of the posts on the above thread, Looby, to see what signs to look out for which might indicate Caninsulin itself may be the problem. Not all insulins agree with all cats.


Mogs
.

 

(((Looby))), I'm sorry that you're having such a hard time, and really hope we can find ways to help you to help Smiffy.

It's great to see that Carol has posted above, because in some ways her situation was not so very different (cat on Caninsulin, initial difficulty with insulin shots and hometesting). But she found her way through that even though it wasn't easy; and I really hope that you can take some encouragement from that.


Eliz

 

Looby, I think Carol's post is very important because it shows that some people struggle as much as you do and in the end they have managed despite kitty being difficult.
I'm optimistic and believe that, with perseverance you will get there.
I'm keeping my fingers crossed for good luck with another attempt!
Lots of love
Marlena

 

Looby,
excellent post from Mogs!
I agree wholeheartedly.
Please let your vet know what's going on.
You do not need to make an appointment just ring reception and ask to speak with your vet or request a call back.
Good luck

 

I live in a world of fear. What helped me get through difficulties I encountered when endeavouring to treat Saoirse's diabetes was to hold on for dear life to my fear of losing her; it helped me learn to pretend I was OK with the tests and injections. No matter how much things upset me I don't matter; Saoirse is all that matters. When I pretend I'm cool with stuff it helps her to be more relaxed and cool about stuff too, and when she feels better about stuff it makes me a little less anxious which then helps her more. It sets up a virtuous circle.


Mogs
.

 

What kind of needles are you using. Max used to flinch a lot with certain brands and sizes of needle. In my opinion, the BD ultrafine short needles are the best and so small that you can really hardly feel them at all. If you are using a big 28-29g, 1/2" needle, it will hurt much more.

 

I got short needles so that I can make sure not to stick too deep, you might want to try that. Also when I first started giving the injections, I wasn't sure where the needle was going in because once it was in the fur I could no longer see the needle, so I shaved a little 2 inch x 2 inch patch on the back of Peanut's neck / shoulder blade area. Being able to see exactly where you are putting that needle will boost your confidence so that you won't fear that you're hurting your cat and you can easily see exactly where to poke.

 

I had a few problems with Sammy at first too, but found the answer (for me, your mileage may vary). First off, I realized that I was holding the needle on the wrong angle. It goes easier if you are on a 45 degree angle, not straight up and down. Secondly, INSERT the needle... slide it in, rather than poke or jab. Imagine you are going after a sliver in your finger.. you would not jab, you would slide. And third, I remembered to talk to Sammy the whole time I was doing it... it calmed her and me.

As soon as I switched from Lantus to Levimir, the shots became completely a non issue. I learned here that Lantus stings, Lev does not.

 

I didn't get as far as shaving a patch from Rosie (I did consider it!) but I did part her fur so I could see skin. This prevented fur shots. I also told her what I was doing and let her see the needle, she hated it if I tried to disguise it. Xx

 

Thanks that is reassuring that I am not the only one!!! I think I know the answer to my own question and that is that she is not going to die if I don't inject her but she is going to start feeling ill again so I have to perservere with it .... I gave her a naughty treat today and stroked her neck as she was eating and she didn't last out .... the needle bent so I am not sure what happened this morning ........ I don't think it hurts her but she she doesn't like being got by the scruff of the neck ... she is softie and a sweetheart but she is not like our other cat who sits on my lap and I can stroke her all over and fiddle with her ears .... Smiffy is not a lap cat for some reason and she doesn't like to be handled much ... I may have got her in the muscle and it may have hurt one or two times so she expects it to hurt every time ..... thanks for the reassurance that I am not the only one .....

 

Parting the fur to find the skin is a good idea except that that is difficult with a black cat ........ she hates long things pointed at her at the best of times ... maybe I should watch a video again .......

 

I gave her some Sheba recommended by one of you today to see if she liked it and she did and I stroked her neck as she was eating it so I have gained a bit of her confidence today I think .... I will try again this evening ..

 

Yes it is not like Smiffy to hiss and growl at me and for her eyes to go all dilated .... sorry by the way .... I got confused with the thread - thought it had't worked the first time so did another one so now I know to go to the search box to find my thread!!!! Getting there ....... So back to Smiffy ..... she doesn't usually curse and scratch me .. only if I touch her bottom ... she has been lethargic for months now so it is difficult to tell if she is behaving strangely but she seems a bit better since I haven't succeeded in giving her her shot!!! need @Elizabeth and Bertie @Marlena and @Diana&Tom to know about this as you seem to be my support network ...... I will bookmark and read the above link .... I think I told you already I got husband to buy some Sheba fine flakes poultry selection in jelly for her to try and that is what I have given her today mid cycle and she ate it! I am not sure if she would eat a whole sachet but she seemed to enjoy it ... maybe she was hungry as she didn't eat all her ration of biscuits this morning .... she must be all over the place now .... having got her stable and to the rules ... she has now missed shots and I have given her extra food ..... so I am going to look at this link and look at the video again about how to inject her - maybe I have forgotten something somehow ... it was going so welll ... maybe you are right she doesn't like it because she feels awful afterwards ... she is only on 2 units twice per day - that is quiet low isn't it?

 

Don't worry Looby, you will get there. Rosie is black too so I know it's not easy, ears are the same but that's for another day!
One thing I remembered, Rosie doesn't like her scruff touching either or any of her skin picking up so while I was getting her used to the jabs I used to pick up the skin regularly throughout the day to get her used to it. I think because I did it without jabbing, when I did she wasn't expecting it and it didn't bother her. The needle prick wasn't the issue for Rosie it was the skin pinching and maybe Smiffy is the same? Worth a try xx

 

I've been doing that when she is about ... always messing stroking her neck and fondling her ears .... I will keep going .. she is not a touch feely cat at all .... she didn't growl or is or lash out when I stroked her when she was eating the Sheba

 

Hi Looby,

I have been riding horses for more than 20 years, and since my childhood, I have always had dogs and cats at home.
If I had learned something, it is that our pets feel our stress.
And the more stressed you are, the more stressed they are.
There is absolutely no reason for you not to succeed in giving her her shots.
Take a deep breath, be sure that you will succeed, keep cool, and everything will go smooth...

 

@Looby
Looby, are you saying that Smiffy's pupils became dilated? When did this happen? How long after insulin?
.

 

Not really dilated as in poorly I don't think but as in angry with me for touching her at the scruff and trying to put the insulin in .. she was active afterwards so what I am saying is that she glared at me with anger with her pupils dilated more than usual when she is relaxed .. like they do when you play with them with a toy and they get excited ...

 

She has just dilated her pupils again after I was fonding her whilst I gave her a treat and she was about to lash out at me again ... what do I do?

 

How long since she's had insulin?
.

 

Probably about two days .. think I got a litte in yesterday .. her Daddy has just got back and she has perked up and has gone outside ... just practiced getting her scruff more gently - you are right ... have to go soon to lie down for a bit ... husband not in a good mood ... can't talk to him about it he doesn't understand . ... just says don't worry ....

 

She's back in again now so just went out for a drink ... she is alert now ..... going to try the softer approach tonight ....

 

OK, so the 'dilated pupils' aren't due to low blood glucose, since the insulin will be long gone. Just wanted to check that.
.

 

No ... husband being a bit of a beer monster tonight so wish me luck!!!

 

Good luck!

Smiffy needs you to take care of her. Let that be your motivation.
.

 

Sorry you're having trouble! You'll get there. Maybe try injecting in a dif area. I'll try to find the diagram that shows the recommended injection sites. Are you home testing? It would be good to know what her blood sugar has been running. It's also helpful for the admins and the rest of us, if you can add a signature line to your profile. You can see all of ours, and what we have listed. Just click on your name at the top of the page, on the right, to go to your profile and add a signature line. You're doing great.
Jamye and Fred

 

http://www.felinediabetes.com/injections.htm

 

Tried that should work but not yet .. will try a bit further down her back!

 

I can't find the diagram that shows the different recommended injection sites. Maybe someone else will post it. Chris ?

 

From the other thread:

Looby wrote:

There can be an improvement in clinical signs on Caninsulin - a reduction in drinking, peeing and hunger; somewhat better coat condition; halting of weight loss; etc. - but that doesn't rule out the possibility that the blood glucose roller coaster typical of Caninsulin's action may be making the cat feel dreadful during the hours when it is working at peak effect. (Saoirse had relatively good BG numbers at one stage during her Caninsulin treatment but she was absolutely miserable for 20 hours a day.)

That is a very significant behaviour change. Sounds like possible hiding behaviour. (Cats hide when they don't feel good.)

At what times in the insulin cycle did you observe these different behaviours?


From this thread:

[Emphasis mine]

If Smiffy seems more comfortable when Caninsulin is not in her system it's another pointer towards discussing with your vet whether the Caninsulin may not be agreeing with Smiffy. If this were to be the case, then a change to a different insulin might make Smiffy feel better and therefore make administration of her insulin easier.


Mogs
.

 

Copy and paste from other thread about this topic (please don't post any more on that thread, everybody - it's getting confusing).

Looby wrote:

Can't find your other thread now to respond to ... I can read it in my e-mail account .... she is behaving differently after say five hours of her shot during the day I would say .... the thing is I don't get to observe her from the time of her morning shot at 9.30 until 2.30 in the afternoon as I am nocturnal so sleep during the day .... she was fine at 2.30 and at about 4 went back upstairs and has not asked to go out so she is not happy ... difficult to tell in the evening as she is always on her bed downstairs in the evening ... it is 5.30 now so I will try to call her for a treat as she understands that word ... what do I do if she is not doing well on the Caninsulin .... the Vet did say that we could change to ProZinc if she is not much bettter by her next appointment which is on the 6th May .....

Link to original post: http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/smifffy-lashing-out-at-me.156959/#post-1664961

Looby also wrote:

Her coat is a bit ruffled but the dandruff is reduced .... the last time she went to the Vet which was one and a half weeks after starting the Caninsulin she had gained weight ... it is difficult to tell now if she has lost weight of not .... she is not peeing more or drinking more .. going to call her for a treat and she usually comes down .... she wouldn't come down so I went upstairs to get her to come down and gave her a treat and stroked her and fondled her scruff and she strated to moan - like a litte mutter and now she is sleep and lethargic and flopped on the carpet ... going to give her some cat nip which she usually likes .... fondled her scruff again and she was about to go for me again @@Critter Mom - do you think I have hurt her in the scruff? Brusied her? Maybe I should try a bit further down tonight?

Link to original post: http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/smifffy-lashing-out-at-me.156959/#post-1664970


Mogs
.

 

@Looby,

Looby,
I think you said in another post that your vet would be willing to prescribe Prozinc if Caninsulin didn't suit. Perhaps, as Mogs suggests, this is something to discuss with your vet now..?

.

 

Here are alternate injection sites to try.

 

I'm not familiar with Caninsulin, is it stored in the refrigerator? If yes, do you allow the insulin in the syringe to warm up to room temperature before you inject it? I have seen it mentioned somewhere on FDMB that injecting cold insulin can cause discomfort.

I certainly had this issue when I switched Bama to Lantus. A few times I didn't let the insulin warm up enough and she was pretty unhappy after the cold shots. The next few shots after a cold shot she would try to evade me and was very vocal about her protests - she would cry out like she was in pain when I would tent her skin but before I actually did anything with the syringe. After a few days she was back to normal but it was a pretty trying experience.

 

Another thing to check on is the syringe bevel. Yes, insulin syringe tips have a bevel to them and that should be up so the point goes in smoothly.


Here is more information about the bevel and syringe: http://petdiabetes.wikia.com/wiki/Syringe

 

I will be .....

Thanks Mogs I thought the first thread hadn't worked so started snother one then realised I could find it by using the search box - won't again!!!

 

I managed to get a shot in tonight by petting her more and lifting less furr and a few treats ..... She hissed a bit and grumbled but has been purring since so l will see how tomorrow morning goes and then call the Vet if Things go wrong again .... According to my husband, she bothers him to get up as usual and followed him out to his outdoor office but I have asked him TO TAKE NOTICE and let me know if she behaves in a different way ....

I sorry I am on iPad now and things seem to work differently on here ... I'm repeating myself ..... Got a shot in tonight by petting her all afternoon and giving her a few treats and lifting less skin .... She hissed a bit but didn't lash out .... She has since let me touch her neck and is purring so I will see how I get on in the morning and call the Vet in the afternoon if I miss again or if she seems poorly one way or the other ....

 

Thanks for that ... Maybe she is a bit sore then .... I will rotate the skin and also good to know other sites ....... Very useful ....

 

Using a pen so don't think this applies but thanks

 

It's stored at room temperature so should be OK ....

 

Well done! I'm really glad - and relieved! - to hear that Smiffy got her insulin tonight and that injection time was better for both of you.


Mogs
.

 

@Critter Mom @Elizabeth and Bertie . This layout of this site and how things come up on my screen is still frustrating me .... Do you see the replies I give to other people's input?! Smiffy took her shot tonight .... Woodsywife posted good diagram and reads to rotate the skin and the scruff could have scarring now and other sites to shoot ..... Lifted less skin tonight and she hissed less .... Will call Vet tomorrow if still have problems and mention she may not have taken to Caninsulin ....... She is definitely better since she has been on it in compared to before she was diagnosed ..... Just seemed a bit brighter still the last couple of days without it! But tonight before her shot she was very lethargic and now she purrs when I stroke so I will see what happens tomorrow ..... Thank you ..... Learning all the time

 

When you create a new thread it is like starting a conversation: you create the opening post which all members can read. Every response you get will be on that thread, and all members will be able to view your posts and all the responses you get.

To find an existing thread go to the Feline Health board and look down the list of posts until you find the thread with the title you gave it. When new replies are posted to your thread the title will appear in bold print and there will be a little dot displayed to the left of the title. Click the dot to see posts that have been added to the thread since you last checked it/posted to it.


Mogs
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Thanks ...... I then don't always see all the replies .... Sometimes I miss some of them for some reason ..... Tired now 4am here so try again tomorrow Thanks again for your patience -

I'm a bright cookie really just glaze over a bit on computer sites and the like!!! Over and out

 

THANK YOU!!! I COULD NOT FIND IT!

 

I practiced fiddling with these other points on my other cat Pasha and she was easy to play with and if she were Diabetic I would have no trouble injecting her or home testing on her but I tried fussing Smiffy on the other places shown on the diagram and she didn't like it at all so I am going to have to stick with the scruff but I think I have got the hang of it again now as I am not lifting so much skin and I am not making so much of a fuss of it for myslelf if you see what I mean ... I keep stroking her as she is eating after I have prepare the pen and then slip it in ... not sure if she is feeling better for it though ... she is sleepy but then our other cat is sleepy now at this time of the day and she is nine and very active .. little thing she is

 

I have taken videos before of me and Peanut, maybe he'll let me do another one so that I can post it. He's orange so obviously a lot easier to see the vein in the ear but along with the scruff, I shaved the edge of his ear so that I could clearly see what the heck I was doing when I first started. I think that helped a lot.

If you can find a lancet device that has a clear cap, it will make it easier to see where the pin is going into the ear. I am using the device from the Alpha Track even though I use a different meter. I do not like the devices with solid colored tops for this reason. I have my device set at level 1 and that works fine for me and for Peanut. I learned a little trick with the clear tops, if you run a black sharpie around the inside of the clear circle (where the lancet tip comes out) then you can really see where everything is when you put the device up to the cat's ear. If you have a black cat then just use a white paint pen. It makes a huge difference, trust me.

I had my cat's scruff shaved at the vets office so that I didn't traumatize him at home lol.

When I get ready to test him or inject him, we go to the little "vet counter" that I have set up for him on my dresser. I have a towel down for him to lay on and all of his things are already laid out. I have many different reasons for this. It's so that he knows what we are about to do, there is a routine and he knows exactly why I have brought him there. He usually just goes ahead and lays down for me but when he doesn't, I just gently pick up his front legs and pull them forward so that he lays down. Lately he's started rolling over on his side which makes it harder for me but at least I know that he's comfortable if he's willing to do that. I also have this little area set up because I won't forget anything which I've done many times when I was taking his things to him, wherever he was at the time. This way of doing it has just proven to be more convenient for both of us.

For a long time I did have a problem with him hiding under the bed when I went over to the treatment area to get everything out. He recognized the sound of the zipper on the bag, he knew the sound of the test strips moving around in the container, then he recognized the insulin bottle rolling around in the box. I had to avoid all of these things if I didn't want to spook him. He would still run under the bed and I would have to trick him into coming out by using the laser light which worked every single time lol. Now everything is out at all times, just sitting in one spot by the treatment area. I don't take the strips out anymore until I already have him laying down. I trained him to be okay with all of this by offering a treat after testing. Once I started doing that, I could ask "who wants a treat" and he would jump up onto the dresser.

I probably make it seem so easy because Peanut is really a dream child, I couldn't ask for a better cat but I do sympathize with people who are less fortunate. One other tip that I have for injection is to do some light massage all along the back and shoulder area beforehand. On Peanut, right before his injection, I pick up the scruff and let it fall back down about 5 times so that it becomes more relaxed and easier to grab. When he is laying down with his head down it pulls the skin tighter which makes it harder to grab any scruff so I get him to lift his head and loosen that skin before I begin.

One last thing, different ways of holding the syringe can affect your comfort, the cat's comfort, ability to inject, the needle bending and other things. Try different ways each time until you find the style that is right for you.

 

I am pleased to say that the last four injections that I have done have gone well .. I lifted her skin more gently and just slipped the needle in and prepare the pen before I put her food down so fingers crosses I have got the hang of it again now ... almost back to where we were when we first started when it seemed really easy.

I am not home testing yet but I have got a AccuChek Avviva glucometer but might get an Alphatrak meter from the Vet on her insurance but I really can't imagine her taking to the loud click and to more needles so if you can manage a video that would be great but there are plenty on the internet aren't there ... I will look at the video on Youtube for the meter that I have got ..... interesting to hear your story .... I don't want to have to shave her at this stage of her life so I am going to try to do things without that .... she is 14 and has already got her little bib shaved where they took the bloods when I would have rather they take the bloods from her neck ... anway - thanks for the input xxx

 

It is Saturday now and the injection went well this morning again and now Smiffy is back to her normal self and doing a little beg for her treat, bullying our other cat for her food and purring when I stroke and fuss her and she is not sleepy like she was when I couldn't get the needles in so I am very happy .. she doesn't seem to be having a big drop either when I assume her blood sugar goes high again if the Caninsulin only has a life of about 8 hours as you all seem to think ...... @Elizabeth and Bertie @Marlena @Critter Mom and @Diana&Tom ...... she is REALLY back to her normal self if she is chasing Pasha around and being naughty again! So maybe the Caninsulin does agree with her after all and hopefulll now she realises that food times and injection that goes with it means she feels better ........ I just picked up enough of her scruff for the needle and not her whole scruff and prepared the pen before I put the food down ... if we weren't in such a small open-plan house I would prepare the pen in a different room but the only place where I can put all her stuff is on the table that runs along the main area of the house ... it is a small narrow terrace ..... I have left another question for you Elizabeth on the other thread to do with the sugar levels and the glucometer ....

 

Great advice!


Mogs
.

 

Glad it's going better for you. The kids do learn they feel better so they start cooperating. Smokey is a dream test kitty. No issues with it. My other kids, there is no way they would tolerate it at all. My one guy loves me playing with his ears but if I poke it, I will be a bloody mess.

 

I have been stroking and playing with her scruff lots today and her ears and she is so much better today after managing to get five shots in a row in now ... she is purring when I fuss her ears and scruff so let's hope it continues ... she is beating up Pasha a bit today so that is a good sign that she is feeling better! xxxx thanks for support again

 

Glad to hear that things are starting to go a lot better for you both. I think that perhaps now you're both learning how much better things are when there's insulin around you'll both start to feel better about the treatment. Cats are smart: Smiffy will join the dots and realise the injections are part of what's making her feel good again.


Mogs
.

 

I don't know how much the Alpha Track will be on your insurance but I can tell you that you don't need to get that kind in order to handle this. I was told by my vet that I HAD to get that kind or none at all lol. I ended up spending the money and got that meter and now I never use it, I use the Relion Confirm. I just bought 100 strips at Wal-Mart for 30.00 and with the Alpha Track the strips are a 1.00 per strip which gets expensive if you are testing twice a day if not more often. Take that extra money and use it toward food or something.

I'm glad to hear that you are feeling like you have the hang of it now. I hope that it continues to get better for you.

 

Thanks ..." She hissed a bit tonight but let me do it anyway and gave me time and I was very gentle