? So frustrated and scared---numbers all over the place

Hi everyone,

We are new (signing up) to the boards, but have read many of the posts. I posted an introduction about Thomas on that page. I apologize in advance for the long post, but I wanted anyone who could help to have as much information as possible.

My poor baby was diagnosed about 2 months ago. My vet is very good for many things, but I am now questioning her about a lot of aspects of his treatment, which she has not had a great reaction to (such as, when I tell her I read something online or on a post, she tells me 'fine, those idiots are killing their cats'. It is so disheartening, as otherwise she's been a great vet---comes to my home, is not a 'put them down' vet and always wants to try anything possible to save them, so I feel quite alone right now.

My first reason for calling the vet to see him was he was drinking and urinating a lot, and became a bit scraggly looking and I could feel his spine. When she first examined him, he was stressed beyond belief, as he is very afraid of people. She did get an ear prick and he came in at 407. But after learning more about feline diabetes, I figured he was probably really in the 300s, and the stress of the visit shot him up a bit. But she told me to start him on one unit at night of Lantus, which I did.

I then tried to learn how to home test, which like so many others out here, was not pretty at first. I felt so bad for him that I couldn't do it correctly and his poor ears had some bruising. I thankfully have gotten better at it, and so has he , but his numbers stayed in the upper 300s and sometimes low 400s for the first week. My vet then said to raise him to 2u at night. Not knowing about this board yet, or about diabetes or Lantus, I blindly followed instructions.

Then came the hind leg weakness; it was heartbreaking. He has trouble jumping and going up and down the stairs, but he is able to do it. I read about methylcobalamin and started him on 3 mg daily. My vet was against it saying it wouldn't help, and kept saying she didn't feel it was neuropathy, but since I found out it couldn't really hurt either, I went ahead with it. She also stated it might be his losing potassium as he was urinating a lot, and advised to give potassium, which I do. So far, no improvement in his legs, and even his front legs now appear to be weaker for him.

As an aside though, he had lost 1 lb during this, but he is back to his weight, back feels solid, and his coat looks nice again (although sometimes I see him plucking at himself and wonder if he's feeling prickly from nerve sensations in his legs.) So clinically speaking, there has been some improvement, even though his numbers are still high and he developed neuropathy (or at least that's what I think it is.) This occurred after I replaced his dry food with Young Again (both Zero and Mature, as he wouldn't eat the Zero alone). My guys have been on Fancy Feast pate's for years, so that stayed the same, although I increased him to 3 feedings per day, about 3/4 can each feeding. However, to keep him still for his shots, he gets 5 'bad' treats.

This pattern continued; every third day or so, she'd have me raise him 1u, until he was up to 6u at night. However, during all these increases, when I'd test pre-shot, or any time during the day, the lowest he ever came in was 240, and that was only one time. All the others he was still in the threes, so she kept saying he needed a higher dose. After about 2 days on the 6u dose, his normal hind leg weakness became sideways, like he was drunk. I tested him and he was 77. I had learned this is a normal BG, but apparently for him it was too low, so I gave him some food and watched him through the night. I then asked if maybe twice a day would be better for him, and she agreed it might.

She instructed me to just start on 3u the next morning. I did not feel comfortable with this after learning a little about Lantus, so I backed him off to .5u AM the next morning, and proceeded the next several days taking a half unit off the night dose and adding half a unit to the day dose. After he was on this for 5 days, I tried a curve (he was then at 3u AM & PM). He was 140 pre-shot AM, so I did not dose. Since then, however, he's been in the 300s consistently.

After learning a little more about Lantus, I started to wonder if he was getting TOO much insulin, and spoke with the vet. She did not agree at all, and said he needed more, and that cats his weight can be on up to 14u daily safely (he is around 14 lbs). But I also wondered why it would take months to get him even somewhat regulated and wondered if his dose was too high already.

So, in the 'killing my cat' theory the vet gave me, I decided to back him off to 2u twice daily. He was on that dose the past two weeks and has had numbers in the low 300s at about 6 hrs after his AM dose. So I raised it .25u in his AM dose for 5 days---same numbers. I raised his PM dose .25u---slightly better numbers, until today, when he came in at 411 6 hrs after AM dose, and his legs seemed worse today.

I am so confused and upset that I can't seem to help him, and am hoping maybe someone else has had a similar experience and could offer some insight. I want to add that I was originally using a CVS meter, but felt it was too inaccurate, so his last three readings (350, 319, 411) were done on a new Relion Micro.

Thanks for any help you can give us; we are both praying for some success.

Jacqui & Thomas

 

Jacqui I am not experienced enough to offer you any advice that may help you with Thomas but if you will go back and put the ? symbol beside your post or the 911 (if you feel this is an emergency) someone will notice and hopefully give you some good dosing advice! To change your title, go to the top right side of your original post and find the words Thread Tools, there will be a down pointing arrow beside this. Click on the arrow. You will choose Edit Title. When you do this, the Title bar will open up. To the left of your title, there is a space. It should currently say "No Prefix". If you will put your pointer to the right of No Prefix, another window will open up with 3 choices, "911, GA, or ?" Choose either 911 or the ? symbol. Then click save changes. That should draw attention to your thread. Thomas will improve. It just takes a little time.

 

Jacqui, welcome and sorry your kitty is not feeling well. Things will get better. Very smart of you to give Lantus twice a day. Are you giving 12 hrs apart? That is the best schedule.

On the methyl what brand are you giving? Did you check to make sure it's sugar free? Zobaline which is ordered is formulated for cats. It is safe to give one tab twice a day. It's easily crushed to mix with food. It will take time to see results. Once the neuropathy eases you can go to once a day indefinitely.

More experienced members for dosing will pop in soon. Hang in, your in the right place for Thomas. FDMB will help you every step of the way.

 

Welcome Jacqui and sweet Thomas. Your vet has certainly not been very supportibe or from the sounds of it very knowledgable about feline diabetes. Thank goodness you have started home testing.

A very important tool is the spreadsheet. Since you are already home testing, putting in the before shot numbers and the between shot numbers can give a much clearer view of what is happening with the Lantus. The colour coding really helps out for you to see trends and the spreadsheet makes it much easier for experienced people to give advice. Here is a link to starting a spreadsheet:

http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/fdmb-spreadsheet-instructions.130337/

If you have any trouble let us know and we can get someone with techie savvy (certainly not me ) to give you a hand.

Other information that would be helpful in giving advice for Thomas:

What type of food are you feeding and how much and how often. Low carb wet food (such as Friskies and Fancy Feast pates) are the best choice to diabetic kitties. Dry food is NOT recommended at all if it can be avoided.

Have you had a full bloodwork panel done, as well as testing for thyroid issues..which is a separate test from a blood work panel? Did any issues show up if you have already had this done?

How are Thomas's teeth? Any sort of dental inflammation or infection can cause glucose numbers to be higher.

Not too be unkind but your vet is an idiot!!! The only time a kitty gets up to those sort of doses is if they have another underyling problem such as acromegaly, Cushing's or Insulin Antibodies, all of which require specialized tests to detect. You definitely have made a wise decision to start back to a lower dosage. Once you get a spreadsheet done and the numbers in our experienced members can see what sort of treatment plan might work best for Thomas.

 

Thank you so much for your help Sandi; I have no idea how to navigate these boards yet!

 

Thank you SO much everyone for your replies,,,,I'm literally in tears feeling there's still hope for him now.

 

Hi and thank you for your reply. He is on 12 hrs apart. He is on the Zobaline also, but only once a day. I will up him to twice daily (he actually is fussy with anything in his food, but thankfully has been letting me pill him after a few days of trying and giving a treat.)

Thanks again.

 

You are so very welcome!!! I am relatively new as well and I know exactly how you feel! There is a lot of information that is going to be given to you and it will be overwhelming at first, but gradually it sinks in and little by little it makes sense. Have had many many moments like you have had! You are in the right place to help Thomas!

 

I see you also posted in the Lantus forum. That is where the more experienced Lantus users "lurk" so I am putting a link to your posting there so that people can keep their replies and you can post questions over there in one place for ease of keeping up on what has been posted:

Your link to Lantus posting:

http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/new-to-diabetes-lantus-jacqui-thomas.156599/

 

Hi and thank you! I will try to do the spreadsheet you provided. I have been keeping a log at home, although it is scattered, as at first my vet said I only needed to test once a week, and before he ate, which I later found out doesn't help all that much with Lantus. Thomas wasn't very cooperative with the ear pricks (I'm sure partly my fault as I was really bad at it), but I did manage one curve of about 3 hours apart each test about 2 wks ago. The numbers were everywhere, so I asked her if I could compare my meter against hers (she is a diabetic), and mine wasn't close, so I bought a Relion Micro a few days ago. I've done three tests since and they do appear more accurate. Today at half time (6 hrs after AM dose), he was 411, and he is on 2.25u twice daily for the past three days. Prior he was on 2u twice daily, then 2.25u AM and 2u PM.

He has eaten Fancy Feast Classics for years, twice daily, but when he lost a bit of weight, I increased it to 3 times a day, about 3/4 can each feeding. He used to be on dry food, and is a dry food junkie to a point, so I replaced the 'bad' dry food with Young Again Zero and Mature (he won't eat the Zero by itself). Those food changes though were made prior to starting insulin.

As for bloodwork, she could barely hold him long enough to do the exam and ear prick---he is a very high-stress cat and was feral when I took him in, so almost no one else has ever touched him (I know, he looks so calm in his picture lol). He is extremely sweet and loving, but only with me. If he even hears a voice outside, he's in high gear. I did wonder myself about hyperthyroid, as one of my others was diagnosed months ago with that, and has been doing well on methimazole. But our downfall is we may not be able to get blood from him.

I did wonder about his teeth and asked her, but she was able to look in his mouth (however briefly) and didn't feel there were any issues. But when I started reading about FD and ketoacidosis, I smelled his breath, and it was fine as far as not sweet or acetone-y, but it was stinky, so to me, he certainly may have tooth issues. However, he eats both wet and dry food fine with no indication of discomfort or issues.

I tried to explain to Thomas that I need other tests to try to help him, but he's not giving in just yet

 

Oh my gosh, it IS so overwhelming that at times I feel like an idiot Just hoping for Thomas' sake my brain cells kick in so I can retain and use the information to his benefit!

 

Thank you! I didn't know the correct place to post since I am new and have no clue what I'm doing! I did put in the opening line of the other post that I posted in two forums, so people wouldn't waste their time if they already read the first one. Thanks again!

 

Testing glucose levels before each shot and at least once between shots is very important to make sure the numbers are safe to shoot and to see what sort of response Thomas has to the Lantus. Many vets advise against home testing, but if they had a human child with diabetes would they only test once every week or two?? Certainly not, and the same is true of our furkids.

Don't let the amount of information overwhelm you...it can be extremely stressful trying to learn everything at once. With the help of the people here, who live and breathe feline diabetes 24 hours a day 7 days a week, you will be fine.

If you are having any trouble getting a spreadsheet set up @Marje and Gracie will be able to help. She is the spreadsheet guru!

 

I put a link to this posting in the other post but it would be best to keep all the information in one post and the Lantus forum gets the most "traffic". It took me months to figure out how to navigate here and even now I still get lost.

Link to Lantus post:

http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/new-to-diabetes-lantus-jacqui-thomas.156599/

 

You absolutely can do this! And you are not an idiot! You are dealing with something that is totally new to you and to add to your stress, it is happening to your fur kid, which for me at least, adds stress because he is my baby! Don't be afraid to ask any question that you think of; it may seem stupid to you but it's only stupid if you don't ask it. You may not always like the answer you get and you may not agree with the answer, but always ask anything. So many will respond as everyone wants to help in any way that is possible, and that will be overwhelming for a little while too, but it will eventually smooth out in your mind, I promise! You can do this! I see that Thomas is difficult to test for anyone but you and at the vet's office. I don't have that problem with my kitty, Shoes, but others here have had and do have that problem and will offer suggestions if needed. Please hang in there because it will get better! I didn't believe it when I was told that also, but it does!

 

Jacqui, have yourself a good cry. Hope has arrived for Thomas. Then gather yourself together and tell Thomas we can do this, we will do this and you (Thomas) will cooperate and you will feel better. You have already accomplished so much. I think most of us found this place because our intuition tells us what the vet says just doesn't seem right.

Listen to you intuition. It won't fail you. Yes all this is overwhelming, take one step at a time. You are already injecting and doing it twice a day. Next is to keep on the home testing and getting it down each time. The spreadsheet is extremely important. For people here to help answer dosing questions, we need to see what is going on with Thomas. You have already been doing the low carb wet food.

When I found this site Smokey was having a hypo episode I didn't know about. And I didn't have a hypo box. So was trying to test, post for help, no ss, no high carb in the house, no car to go to ER, hubby working (out of state) It was awful. But members stayed up, kept me calm, focused, talked me through I think until 3 or 4 in the morning. Smokey is here because of them.

We are here for you and Thomas. We will be looking for your daily posts in the Lantus forum to help and follow your progress.

 

Thanks so much! Yes, Thomas doesn't even go to the vet's office, as he doesn't travel well AT ALL, and my vet is a home vet (she doesn't work for a practice anymore). With my first diabetic, I didn't even know how to give injections, so that was a learning curve, but at least I knew how when Thomas was diagnosed. But not the home testing--that was trial and error---poor Thomas!

 

Thank you! She didn't really advise against it, just felt it only needed to be done once a week, and I didn't feel good about that. After the feeding frenzy tonight, I will try and figure out the spreadsheet and how to post it.

 

Oh my gosh,,,I can't imagine what you must have been feeling during that! When he went down to 77 and was acting drunk, my heart fell to my feet. Thankfully I did have his food and some 'bad' treats to give him, and it worked out okay. But boy it can be scary.

 

Jacqui where in Nj are you. I used to live in South River, worked in Somerset.

 

Hi Jacqui, I too have a "Jackie" that was just diagnosed. I didn't read all the posts here, but let me tell you I had TWO vet opinions saying that feeding Friskies etc was a horrible idea. I was like, "but I was reading that diabetic cats shouldn't eat dry food..." but they didn't buy it. It is very frustrating! For now I gave in to my vet and bought some Hills M/D. At least it is lower carbs than most dry food. The other vet said to help be more regulated, he should always have access to food and that once regulated with insulin he won't be hungry all the time and eat all day. OK, I can understand the point. I work so I can't feed him multiple times per day so maybe leaving some dry is good idea. I still have to give him wet food when he gets his shots, just a little. My vets think Friskies is junk but I know he will eat that and have peace of mind when I go to work that he has had a decent amount of food and he won't go hypo.

Anyways, he is on 2 units twice a day of canninsulin, again both vets recommended this one to me. His blood sugar goes down to a decent level for most of the day but still gets high at certain times. My vet wants to go slow however. I have noticed a huge improvement in his thirst and urination, which makes me feel happy. He was drinking so much, even hanging out in the bathtub and I was so worried. So just know that it can be frustrating for everyone. Just take one day at a time. If you see clinical signs that he is improving, a high reading now and then is better than a hypo. As for the neuropathy, Jack has that too. I'm looking into the b-12 pills myself at the moment. He's not that bad but sometimes when he is feeling playful he will try and pounce and then fall over and it breaks my heart. It will be a long road but I will try anything. Good luck!

 

This is one of the saddest things I've heard, I just want to reach into the computer and give you a hug! YES, there is definitely hope for your sweet Thomas! You are already doing a great job, your instincts have not let you down and you are right on track. I'm not going to offer you any more advice at the moment, you've already gotten wonderful info from all the other FDMB members who have responded. I will say, however, don't let your vet intimidate you, you don't need her permission to feed your cat a different food or home test your cat as often as you feel neccessary! I had to finally leave a vet I had had for years because we butted heads over treating my sugar boy. The final blow for me was having a tech - let me repeat that - a tech berate me for not feeding a food I knew was bad for him, and she wouldn't listen when I tried to explain why it was not good. Then the vet told me that because I was feeding low carb food and doing home testing I was going to kill my cat!!! I was so intimidated I didn't even tell her I found a new vet, who is much better versed in feline diabetes, lol.

It will be much easier for us to help you after we can see the info in your spreadsheet. I hate to throw more techie stuff at you, but it would also be helpful if you could fill out some info in your Signature, i.e., Thomas' age, date of Rx, type of insulin, diet, weight, any other health issues or medicines, that type of thing. If you look at the top right side of the page, click on your name in the dark blue box, a drop-down menu will offer you several choices, among them is "Signature". Just click on that and fill out any info you think may be pertinent.

Welcome aboard!

 

Amen to not letting the vet intimidate you!

 

I am in Lawrenceville, right outside of Princeton. I used to have a horse farm in South Brunswick, so I do know where both South River and Somerset are. Where do you live now?

 

Yes, it is so frustrating, as I know I am not a vet, but that doesn't mean I can't feel some advice is incorrect, as I am the one who sees him ALL the time and knows when he is not feeling right. Numbers are important, but so is how is he looking and acting.

As for the dry food, I am aware that it is very bad, but since he had lost weight, and loves his dry, I didn't want to stop it cold turkey, which is why I switched him to Young Again. Even the 'regular' mature is less than 6% carbs, so that was still an improvement over what he was eating as far as his dry. Apparently this worked for him as far as how he looked, as he gained some of his weight back and his coat lays nice and flat again---it was looking quite scruffy for a while.

It is great Jack's numbers are down for a good part of the day. I haven't had that luck with Thomas yet, but am holding out hope. As for the B12, I haven't seen improvement yet in his legs, but I also know that it will only help speed things up once his numbers are stabilized, which they are not yet. And yes, it is so heartbreaking when he takes a misstep or has trouble coming up the stairs. I get so nervous when he tries to jump up or down on something that he will hurt himself. But unfortunately we can't watch them all the time, so I just pray for the best.

Since Jack is drinking and urinating less, that's a great clinical sign, regardless of numbers! I send hugs and prayers for both of you!

 

It's so hard, as I don't want to upset her as she has been a good vet, and half my guys can't go to an office so I'm lucky to have her do home visits, but after losing my first diabetic several months ago, I now wonder a lot of things.

 

Oh thank you so much! And hugs back to you! Also, thanks for the advice on the signature---I had no idea how to do that. It is so hard as my vet is good in so many ways, but her comeback when I challenge her is always 'well, I'm a diabetic myself, and have treated hundreds of diabetic cats", to which I have no reply, so I just agree and finally just started trying to learn about this on my own, and found this board--(someone heard my prayers for help!) My vet said a similar thing about killing my cat, that the people I'm reading about are killing theirs. Well, I came to the conclusion that what she is recommending hasn't been working, and I felt I would lose him anyway, so decided to follow my heart and do what I thought was best for him. If the end result is that I lose him, at least I'll know that it was meant to be, not because I never did BGs or just kept upping doses on one high number.

I hope your baby is doing well and I will get right on that signature!

 

Hi Jacqui

Welcome to FDMB. I can do a spreadsheet for Thomas in no time at all. I going to send you a private message. Look the the upper right corner of the page and when you see a "1" by the inbox, click on it and you'll see a message from me.

 

That is how I felt with my Woody! I had to take a step of faith that this board knew more about him than my vet. And low and behold they did. Both my kitties are in remission right now, after Woody was getting 13u of Novolin twice a day. The poor guy was hypoing twice a day. I am surprised he didn't die.

 

My cat would have died if I had followed that vet's advice: he was up to 7 units 2x daily-way too much-of Vetsulin, a very harsh insulin, and she didn't want me to test at home. Good thing I didn't listen!

 

So grateful I found this forum. We are using Vetsulin, which I'm understanding now is not necessarily the best insulin for cats. I'm trying to decide between PZI/Prozinc and Lantus/glargine...but Jeez, why so much more expensive that Vetsulin!!!?? I also believe we've been dosing her too high and just learned about Somogyi effect causing hyperglycemia. Her BG is 600-700+ when we measure 2x per day for over a week. We give 6.5u Vetsulin around 10am with first meal and again same dose in the evening around 5-7pm with 2nd meal. We started w/1U 2x/day but after reading about tight regulation, started increasing the dose to match the BG. But now I feel we've created Somogyi and hyperglycemia. She definitely has neuropathy, weak back legs, and drinking too much, not eating enough...but this has been the case since before we started insulin. I'm currently using Solid Gold Indigo Moon dry food and add water to make gravy. It has 42% protein and 20% fat...carbs not listed. Only added carbs are potato and peas. No grains. I've looked at a lot of "wet" canned foods and find many are the same ingredients as dry food, even with grain, but just have huge water contents...70-80 %. Protein is 10% highest. If I'm going to go wet, I want a healthy food with no crap that is affordable. She's been on dry all her life. Please help! As far as insulin, please recommend. As far as dosing, say I start her on 1u 2x/day with PZI or Lantus, how long do I leave that dose where it is with BG unregulated (say over 150) until I start increasing the dose? Do I go up by 1/2 u or 1 u 1x or 2x/day? How long do I stay at that dose before going up again? Please post guidelines for that process. Thanks SO much for your help...I don't want to kill my kitty!!!

 

Hi Ken. I am way too knew to give any advice, but when I posted today, members told me how to make my new post stand out so others would see it quicker. Go to the top of the page and on the right, about 2 inches down, you will see Thread Tools. Click there and click Edit Title. You will see a drop down arrow next to your post title--click there, and either click 911 or ?, then click Save Changes.

Hope this helps!

 

It's better if you start your own new thread so we can keep track of you and your "extra sweet" kitty

Most of us using Lantus are buying it from Canada. Here's all the information on where we're all buying it from

It's 1/3rd the cost it is here in the US!

You can learn a lot about Lantus by reading the Stickies at the top of the Lantus forum. Dose adjustments are made in .25 unit increments, so if you go to Lantus, you'll need to make sure you also get U100 syringes with half unit markings.

The protein levels in dry food isn't measured the same as with wet food and what's most important in our sugarcats is low carb and lots of water! The kidneys are one of the weak points in our diabetics, and keeping lots of water in the diet helps keep those kidneys healthier! Not only is dry too high in carbs, it's dehydrating. It pulls water out of the body.

You can learn a lot about feeding your cat at Dr. Lisa's website....the worst wet food is better than the most expensive dry!! Most of us feed plain old Friskies pates, Fancy Feast Classics or 9-Lives pates, but there are lots of other choices out there. On that same website is a food chart of a lot of foods and the nutrient breakdown in Protein/Fat/Carbs

There's SO much information to share with you, but you're in the right place!! Please keep asking questions!!

 

Wow, that is too scary. Your baby is so lucky you came here as well!

 

Oh my gosh---I was freaking out when we hit 6u once a day of Lantus and he hypo'd once! (for him anyway,,,he was at 77 but acting very poorly) I am SO happy to hear your guys are currently in remission---what a great feeling that must be! Even if Thomas never gets there, if he can be stable most of the time and get some of his leg thing back to normal, I'd be grateful (although I do hate having to stick and poke him)

 

Oh thank you Marje! I'll check there now.

 

I am not sure if the others have said this but step one is to breathe.. And repeat often you will not do him good if you get I'll. You have to listen to you hart, cat and mix that with everything you can learn. You can do this it has been done and will be done again so believe it OK? I understand the fear the gut checking terror of all of this. I have spent more time curled around Magellan bawling my eyes out from stress and fear than I care to think of.
It is not malice that is prompting your vets actions but ignorance of FD. They have a set script and formula to follow and stock to it like a tick. I am not overly comfortable my small advise is to start with a low dose and go from there. You can do this so have faith in yourself and your cat.

 

Did your vet do a blood test to check Thomas' potassium levels? If not, then I strongly recommend you speak to your vet immediately about continuing the supplement and ask to have blood work done IMMEDIATELY. Too much potassium is bad news for the heart. If it were my cat I would not give the supplement until I was sure that her blood work indicated she needed it (and I'd do regular bloodwork thereafter to make sure her potassium levels stayed in the normal range). I know you're already scared and I don't want to alarm you further but I would not be doing right by you or your cat if I didn't draw attention to this.

WRT the way the Lantus dose was ramped up in such large increments - and so fast! - plus (I am assuming) prescribing a potassium supplement without first doing any bloodwork my opinion is that the person most in danger of killing your cat is your current vet. If I were in your shoes I would leave for another practice. The door wouldn't hit me on the way out.

I am very, very glad that you have found FDMB. The members here will help you to turn things around. Be sure to post about anything which concerns you about Thomas' health, medications, supplements, etc. There are many highly knowledgeable members here with a wealth of experience to share, and from whom you will be able to learn so much.

To close on a forward-looking, positive note here is Tootsie's story:





Maybe your current vet should watch the above. (It wouldn't do her any harm to read the attached PDF either.)

I can imagine there have been a lot of tears shed in your house recently. I'm glad that some of them are now hopeful ones, and I hope that some smiles will follow very soon. Things are going to get better for you and Thomas! They certainly got better for myself and Saoirse when I became a member here just shy of two years ago. (And what I learned here helped me to keep my cat safe.)




Mogs
.

 

I would be inclined to trust your assessment of the situation and Thomas' clinical signs, Jacqui. It is possible for a cat to have a symptomatic hypo at numbers in the lower part of the 'normal' range. I know this to be true because Saoirse had her one and only symptomatic hypo when she was still in the normal range. Spookily enough the only reason this happened to her was that I, being a novice diabetic cat mama, reluctantly followed a vet's dosing instruction instead of trusting my gut and my research, both of which were telling me the dose should be reduced because I was transitioning Saoirse to low carb, wet food from Hill's w/d kitty cornflakes (and the vet knew this! .) Thankfully I had learned to home test, caught the low and was able to intervene to bring Saoirse's numbers back up quickly. (The too high dose of Caninsulin dropped her numbers like a rock, triggering the hypo.)


Mogs
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Hi and thank you! What a great video to see your results---I am so happy for Tootsie! My vet first argued it wasn't neuropathy until I got pretty stern about it. She had never seen him walking, just was reading my descriptions I would send via email (it would be almost impossible to have her here and him near her to walk--I tried videos, but could not get anything clear enough for her to see). She then relented and said it probably IS neuropathy, and that I hadn't explained his symptoms or ever said he was walking on his hocks. Well, I can assure you that's ALL I kept saying, and that I also noticed front leg weakness as well, which she stated she had never seen and it was probably arthritis. SO, I'm pretty sure it's neuropathy, as his numbers have remained high all this time.

Unfortunately, he is very wild with other people and we could not get blood done on him. He does not go to a practice; my vet comes here, as he does not travel well at all and the last time I tried he almost stroked out. So home vetting was the way to go, for most of my guys. She felt the leg weakness was due to him urinating a lot and losing potassium, and she did say it was not dangerous if he did not need it, because believe me I asked. She recommended one 525 mg tablet daily, but I've only been giving him half a tablet. So yes, I am scared, but am going to stop the potassium and just keep him on the Zobaline, at least until (if) we can get blood work done on him.

 

Tootsie's not my cat, BTW.

Have a look at a Thundershirt for Thomas; they can help keep a kitty calm. Also there's a product called Zylkene which can help with travel/vet stress.


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Funny, when I told the vet the next day what happened, she had said 'he wasn't hypo, that's a normal number'. I felt like 'did she hear what I told her?" He was walking/wobbling around like a drunk, meowing at me, and acting like he hadn't a clue what he wanted to do next. He was off and I knew it, regardless of the number. And yes, this was after he was pushed to 6u after being on 5 for only 4 days, then 5.5 for only four days (she wanted me to up one whole unit, but I refused and went in .5 unit increment, but it was still too much too fast apparently.) I had asked her several times about the Lantus 'depo', but have yet to receive an answer. It's sad, as she is really good with other things, but I'm just not comfortable with her assessment and recommendations on this.

I am so happy to hear Saoirse came out okay from his hypo, and hope he is doing well.

 

Oh, I am sorry,,,I am so new to this and don't know what I'm doing! But thank you so much for the recommendation---I will look into these things.

 

Hi and thank you! What a great video to see your results---I am so happy for Tootsie! My vet first argued it wasn't neuropathy until I got pretty stern about it. She had never seen him walking, just was reading my descriptions I would send via email (it would be almost impossible to have her here and him near her to walk--I tried videos, but could not get anything clear enough for her to see). She then relented and said it probably IS neuropathy, and that I hadn't explained his symptoms or ever said he was walking on his hocks. Well, I can assure you that's ALL I kept saying, and that I also noticed front leg weakness as well, which she stated she had never seen and it was probably arthritis. SO, I'm pretty sure it's neuropathy, as his numbers have remained high all this time.

Unfortunately, he is very wild with other people and we could not get blood done on him. He does not go to a practice; my vet comes here, as he does not travel well at all and the last time I tried he almost stroked out. So home vetting was the way to go, for most of my guys. She felt the leg weakness was due to him urinating a lot and losing potassium, and she did say it was not dangerous if he did not need it, because believe me I asked. She recommended one 525 mg tablet daily, but I've only been giving him half a tablet. So yes, I am scared, but am going to stop the potassium and just keep him on the Zobaline, at least until (if) we can get blood work done on him.

Jacqui & Thomas
Thomas 10-yr-old male, 14 lbs/Dx 2-2016/Lantus 2.25u 2x day (past 2 1/2 wks) Previously 1x day up to 6u
Switched to Relion Micro meter from CVS Advanced 4-19/Fancy Feast classics and Young Again dry/Zobaline 1x day/Potassium 525 mg 1/2 tab 1x day

 

Tootsie is just one of the best examples we can find on YouTube of how far back a kitty can come from diabetic neuropathy...she's an inspiration to lots of other kitties!

 

She ( ) came out of it OK, thank goodness! That was nearly two years ago.

Your vet's a bit my-way-or-the-highway, isn't she! (We moved practices to get away from similar.)


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Thank you. I started to realize this a few weeks after he was first diagnosed, that my stress levels will certainly affect him. I hope you baby is doing well.

 

Wow, 2 yrs,,,that's wonderful. Glad she is doing well!

 

Just a thought: did your vet ever tell you that it's good practice to monitor diabetic cats' urine for ketones? If she hasn't then we can advise you further.


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When I asked about it, she said since he's not acting sickly, she didn't feel it necessary. I went and bought the test strips anyway, but quickly found out Thomas is extremely shy apparently---he would stop peeing and walk out of the box as soon as I approached. And since she hasn't been able to do any blood work or tests on him, that was the only choice I had to check him. Am going to maybe try the saran wrap, but he is quite fussy about things, so not sure he'll step into it.

 

Atta girl!


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Magellan is doing very well he is otj off the juice aka no longer using insulin. He is still diabetic gets tested and gets no kibble. But he is very healthy, he has his 5 P's in place. Playing, preening, pooping, peeing and purring a lot of use this as a gage to track how or fur children are doing. Welcome to being a helicopter parent keep your chin up, stand your ground and trust your guts.

 

You'll have plenty of company (myself included )!


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Yes, he really is, so am I! It would kill me to think I had done anything to harm him, even if I was following a vet's (poor) advice.

 

Oh yes, lol, PLENTY of company! You can add me to that list, too!

 

Hi Jacqui,

I hope that you are feeling a bit brighter and a little more optimistic about things today. We all know only too well how scary it can be at the beginning.

You'll find lots of info about Lantus in the stickies at the top of the Lantus & Levemir support group's board. Here's a link for you:

http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/forums/lantus-glargine-levemir-detemir.9/


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I see you feed every 6 hrs (I feed every 12) currently my man is controlled by food (FF classic 1 can 2x/day) & Glypizide. Should I be feeding more often? Will this keep sugar levels more even? Thanks

 

OMG I just watched that video and it made me cry! Dust Bunny has an improperly healed pelvis (thank you stupid vets refusing to Xray when she was little), so IDK if I could spot it in her since she is already weak there. Her front paw is twisted sideways as well so seeing it in the front would be pretty impossible as well. We are pretty sure that she was either thrown from a vehicle or possible had gotten caught in the motor fan of the pepsi vending machine I found her in. Poor thing was only about 8 weeks old.

I too do not trust my current vet as she has already told me to stop home testing. My BF doesnt agree that I deviate from the vets advice (we have even had fights about it), but I have already had pushy vets cause her pelvis and I do not want that type to cause her death. I have requested to see the other vet at the office since she was actually the first vet I saw there and was the one who actually listened to me about Dust Bunnys pelvis. I have an appointment with her May 21 but I am looking into other vets atm as well. My landlord has 3 kittys too and raves about her vet so I will be calling him today.

 

Unfortunately, he is very private about using his 'bathroom' and I haven't been able to get a test. I did hear about a meter that can test for ketones. Has anyone used this method?

Thanks!

 

I can relate---have had several arguments with my sister about the same thing,,,,very frustrating. And it's starting to appear (to me anyhow) that many vets are using human protocols for treatment/dosing, which I do not understand, as they are 'veterinarians' I certainly hope you can either find one you trust, or use all the insight of the experienced people on these boards. Wishing you and Dust Bunny the best outcome!

 

Hi. I'm not sure if this question was meant for me, but I'm not experienced enough yet to give advice on your question. But I feed Thomas FF classic 3/4 can in the AM and PM, and a small amount before bedtime.

 

That is so great to hear---so happy for you both! Helicopter parent,,,,I have a lot of lingo to learn

 

Yes I am for the most part, thank you. But this morning Thomas was more weak again in his legs, and his front left leg seems worse (kind of buckling at the wrist). He seems very annoyed and frightened with this also
On a good note though (sort of lol), the new meter appears to be more accurate than the first one, but he's still high. AMPS 313 +4.5 317,,,,not sure what's going on with that. I have an insane schedule today so as soon as I can I am going to fill in a sheet from my log book and get it posted. Yes, it is scary---I'm sure everyone has felt this, but I just wish I could hold him and kiss him and make it all go away for him.

 

I have been in that same boat myself, and my older son, who, incidentally, is not particularly "animal-oriented", argued constantly with me about not following that vet's advice. Thank heavens I now have a vet who supports me! He is glad I am a "hands-on" client and recognizes that I have the knowledge and ability to do home testing, curves, dose adjustments, diet changes, etc. And I got to hear that oh-so-sweet "You were right, I was wrong" from my I-think-I'm-smarter-than-Mom son, lol!

The protocols are very similar. Diabetes is diabetes, regardless of the species of animal; the causes, actions and reactions are the same. I just wish more vets would recommend and support regular home testing. Would any of those vets inject their diabetic child with insulin without first testing to make sure it's safe? I don't think so. It's the best way to ensure your kitty's safety, as well.

 

I have never used one, but I do know that the test strips for these meters are very expensive. One suggested method for collecting urine for ketone testing is to fill a small litter box with plain aquarium gravel, the kind that's really just natural pebbles, then when he urinates you can drain off the urine. And you can rinse the gravel and reuse it!

 

Well I know my Landlords vet lets her be very hand on but she has also worked with him for 20 years. I dislike vets that treat me like I know nothing. I may not have a degree but I have taken care of MANY sick kitties. I always find the sick ones and I can never say no if they need help. Just cant ever find a vet that listens to my concerns and actually addresses them. I did have one vet that I LOVED and would let me do my own pill feeding and at home care but he passed away before I got Dust Bunny.

 

I SO agree! And let's face it, NO ONE knows your kitty as well as you do. When vets don't listen to or disregard an owner's input, they are doing their patient a grave (and possibly deadly) disservice.

Sorry you lost your good vet. I hope you find another one who will work with you. I interviewed mine over the phone before I even made my first appointment, no sense in wasting my time and his if he was not going to be supportive of the (well-established) methods I was using. @BJM's Vet Interview Topics (in her Signature, look under Notes to Share) were a huge help!

 

For Jacqui.
For ALL of us who go through times of uncertainty while doing this sugar dance!

 

I have been searching everywhere all morning for that! The link in the FAQ is broken... actually all of them are. I posted about it in the tech support forum but was still searching. and I cant get to her signature because her profile is set to private

nvm all that.... I got it. Took some back ally bypassing but I did it! YAY!!!

 

I absolutely agree,,,they would not do it with their 'human' children. However, I read on one of the research hospital clinicals that a cat's metabolism is about twice as fast as a humans, so when a a vet (like mine) advised once daily dosing, this would most likely not work for a cat. Sigh,,,so much to learn

 

That was great! Thank you!

 

Ok---now THAT he might step into,,,,the saran wrap did not go over well and he peed on his bed blanket I have to go (get taken at the moment) to Petsmart today or tomorrow so will see if they have some there. Thank you!

 

I was wondering if it was just my computer because I couldn't get some links to work either,,,now I know lol.

 

@DustBunnyMomma Try this link and see if it takes you there:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/12dfoE3fsj944c7XlJYwO8lDC5VVERpro_3C43jxLhBk/edit

 

Couldn't agree more---I had over 157 ferals at one time at our farm. I had kittens in my crib when I was born (my mom loved animals also). So I too, although no degree, have a lot of animal experience, and we see them EVERY day, not just during exam time when they're not even acting like themselves. I used to get upset with myself that my guys should be going to regular check ups, tests, etc., but then realized if I hadn't rescued them, they would've stayed in the wild and probably not have lived past 5 yrs old,. So I now feel that even though many of them can't be seen by vets, they have more than many cats will ever have---they are loved, spoiled, warm, safe, and will never have to fear abuse again. And I do the best I can when they have a health issue,,,,in the end, that's all any of us can do.

 

Yes, it took me to Merck Diabetes Manual,,,,thank you.

 

If you find out he does, indeed, need a potassium supplement, you might be interested in this one. Ask you vet what she thinks. My vet recommended it for my kitty, and it's much easier than a pill, just mix it into his food. He also doesn't mind the taste, I think he likes it.

https://www.chewy.com/vetoquinol-renal-k-powder-dog-cat/dp/109760

It's actually cheaper at allivet.com, and it also comes in a gel but the powder is the most cost-effective.

The third one on that list should be Vet Interview Topics.

 

@Bobbie And Bubba uses a ketone meter. Maybe she can tell you the pros and cons. One of the associate vets in the office I go to said ketones don't show up in blood. I just held my tongue.

 

Somewhere you asked me where I live now. I can't find that but we moved to the Poconos in 2009. 12 miles north of Scranton.

 

Hey there, yes I use a ketone meter, the Precision Xtra (Abbott) I get the ketone strips from Canada,that's the cheapest place I found them. Bubba is also very private with his LB habits and I couldn't always catch him in the box since he spends a lot of time in his "man cave" (aka the basement). The meter is great! When I am getting a blood sample for his BG test, I use the same sample of blood and just have both meters ready to do so I only have to prick him once.

Here's the thing with the meter. It is geared for human blood. When using for our kitties, ketones do not show up unti l 2.4 . If you get one and need more information let me now and I will send what I have.

 

It is a term used to discribe parents that constantly hover over their children...bet human or fur children hope that helps?

 

Then I have a fleet of them.

 

Hadn't realized you couldn't get to my signature with the current setttings! I'll fix that when I get home to my PC.
All my links should show up in the signatuure displayed for this post. Have a read, maybe save a few that seem helpful, such as the Secondary Monitoring Tools, which can give you some clues to what is going on even if you can't get a blood test, particularly dehydration checks and food/water iintake/output.

 

Although Saoirse's not been a ketone-prone cat (anti-jinx) I bought a blood beta-ketone meter to monitor her through her recovery after an operation she had recently. The strips aren't cheap but I am delighted that I invested in the meter; it's so much more straightforward and reliable when ketone testing is really critical - and it was much less stressful for my beloved little patient. Like Bobby, I just incorporated the blood ketone tests into our normal testing sessions. Highly recommended.


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That photo and its sentiment are wonderful, Lucy! Thank you for posting it.




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This.


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I think your vet is "unfamiliar" with Feline Diabetes. I and my cats have been harmed in the past by vets who are not up to snuff with specific conditions. Thank goodness for the information available here. I hope you can find a more informed vet. From what I have read, this one seems dangerous.