Strange Behavior - Anyone Experience This?

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Ryan and Mackenzie

Ryan and Mackenzie

Member Since 2016
Hi guys,

I haven't made an introduction post yet (and will) but I wanted to throw out a question in advance.

My kitty's name is MacKenzie (I'm Ryan), and she's a 9 year old DSH with FD. She's been on a regiment of 3u, than 2u of Caninsulin for the past 3 weeks as this is still a new diagnosis. We had blood and urine work done on her when she was first diagnosed, and her liver was fine, but she did have slight pancreatitis. We dropped the dosage of insulin to 2u because 3 was bringing her down to the 90's about 4-5h after administration. She has lost weight, and has signs of neuropathy as her hind legs have begun to atrophy and she's a little twitchy at times.

MacKenzie also has a compromised immune system (gets feline eosinophilic plaques) which we've been treating with prednisolone for the last 5 years. She's been on 5mg per day (after a lot of trial and error), and since the FD diagnosis, we've been tapering that down week by week. She's doing 2.5mg every other day now, will do 2.5mg twice a week for two more weeks, then she's off. In the meantime, to control her immune system and to give her a better chance of controlling the FD without steroids in the mix, we've put her on Atopica (cyclosporine) which she has now been taking for a week (takes a few weeks to start working). She has been on dry food her entire life, but since the diagnosis we slowly weaned her on to wet food only. She eats Natural Balance Chicken and Green Pea canned food now, as she's also allergic to a ton of protein and carb sources.

So far it's been a mixed bag with her behavior. She's had good days ... purring, playing, being social, etc. Then we have days like today and yesterday where she can barely make an effort. She eats, but you have to put it in front of her face. She'll drink, but again, you need to take it to her. She usually barges into our room talking up a storm when it's time for breakfast, but today and yesterday she just slept right through it. I had to bring her downstairs, and shove food in front of her. We usually give her breakfast and a shot at 6:00am, and it was 10am when we finally got that accomplished today. I could only get one shot into her yesterday (7pm) because her eating was so sporadic. I tested her before her shot this morning (10am) and she was at 239 mg/dL.

Anyways, have any of you experienced this kind of behavior? Every morning I wake up and never know what cat I'm getting that day. She's eating, but just not interested in practically anything.

If there's any other info you need from me to make an informed comment, please let me know. Thanks!!
 
Welcome Ryan and MacKenzie!
Are you home testing? Is it possible shes going to low possible hypo?
Im fairly new to FD someone with more experience should come along soon.
You have come to the right place for help.
Hope things get better soon for MacKenzie!
 
Hi there!

Thanks for the reply and warm wishes. Much appreciated!

I am home testing. I tested her before her shot this morning and she was at 239 mg/dL and still acting very lethargic and uninterested. She ate her full breakfast, but I needed to literally bring it to her where she was resting, and she would only do half a serving at a time. She also had a pee this morning, and it looked normal. I've tested her before when she's acting like this and she's been hyper (around 310+), not hypo. I plan to check again in about 4 hours to see what her reading is when the insulin is at peak. I'm just wondering if all these changes in meds (coming off prednisolone mainly) is causing this if it's not her BG.

Open for discussion I suppose ...
 
I'm sorry to hear your beautiful girl is not feeling well.

Are you checking her urine ketones daily? Ketones can build in a diabetic cat quickly and some signs are not eating, lethargy, high BG, etc. The end result of high ketones can be diabetic ketoacidosis which is caused by not enough insulin + not enough calories/water + infection. Sometimes there is infection that we can't see or the vet can't diagnose just off of labs....like dental issues. You can buy urine ketone sticks at Walmart. If you can put her in the litter box, just slip a small ladle under her bottom as she squats and collect a bit of urine, dip the stick in it, and read it in exactly 15 seconds. It's really important to keep an eye on the ketones.

There's not really a "slight" pancreatitis. She either has it or she doesn't but there is a gray area where the test can be somewhat inconclusive. She could easily be having a bout of pancreatitis and you can read more about it here.

I would also suggest you keep an eye on her liver values as cyclosporine is one of those drugs that can affect the liver.

Lastly, dropping the insulin by a entire unit might have been too much and so she could be spending more time in hyperglycemia than you realize although this usually makes them hungry and thirsty. Have you thought of perhaps switching to one of the better insulins for cats? Caninsulin is not that great of an insulin for cats....it is extremely harsh and hard on their little bodies. Better choices would be ProZinc which is a medium duration insulin or, even better, one of the long duration insulins like Lantus or Levemir.

Wishing the best for you and your sweet girl. She needs calories and water so if she's not eating her full allotment of calories each day, you should consider syringe feeding her to get her through this.
 
@Marje and Gracie
Thanks so much for your reply. A lot to think about. She's such a great little friend and I want to do what I can to help her.

Seems a lot of her symptoms are pointing towards pancreatitis. She definitely does lay down almost exclusively in the "meat loaf" position now, is very lethargic, isn't interested in water (although slowly eats all her daily calories when I bring it to her), and her skin seems a bit wrinkly (which may or may not point towards dehydration). I have contacted my vet and am awaiting a call back to discuss next steps (will also bring up insulin type and options). The only positive I see here right now is that she's getting calories in.

I will also look into tracking ketones, although the thought of trying to slide a ladle under her is ... interesting! Will see how that goes. I have a feeling the vet is going to want to do another blood/urine analysis so at least we can see where we're at. Unfortunately, that's another $500 gone.

Just want my little girl back. Has been a really emotional ride so far. My house just seems off with her like this.
 
Hi Ryan.

Welcome. You have come to the right place. Not only do the members here have tons of experience with FD, but most of us have/had kitties with other health conditions, too. So many that it's rare for someone to come along with one nobody here has seen! We aren't vets, but we live FD 24/7, many of us for years, and some with more that one cat, either consecutively or concurrently.

I would definitely ask the vet if Mackenzie is dehydrated, which can also cause the signs you are seeing. Is she peeing a lot? The fact that she isn't drinking water can indicated dehydration (although when Harvey is dehydrated he lives next to the water bowl). I am not familiar with Caninsulin, so I can't offer much insight on her FD. Once you're ready to get started here, it would help us tremendously (and you, too) if you could set up a spreadsheet to track her BG numbers. Instructions are HERE.

Like, Marje (who has way more knowledge and experience than I), I would encourage you to ask about switching to a more cat-friendly insulin. We have people here on several types, and hopefully you and your vet can decide on the one that best fits your lifestyle and your cat's situation. Be aware that some vets, especially older ones, aren't super familiar with the long-acting insulins, Lantus and Levemir, which have recently become recognized as some of the best for treating FD. You may have to do some research on your own and be an advocate for your cat. I was told by a third year vet student at the UC Davis Veterinary Teaching Hospital that they got exactly 5 hours of training in diabetes - in both cats and dogs! So most vets aren't super knowledgeable about the disease. Sadly, many owners choose to euthanize rather that go to the trouble to treat. It isn't easy, but if you love your kitty, it's so worth it!

Once that is done, and you've started posting, you'll be referred to the group that consists of others on your same insulin, to get the most informed feedback. Until then, feel free to post here with questions and comments. We ask only that you limit yourself to one thread per day. You can change the Subject line using the Thread Tools button at the top of your original post, if you need to.

We're glad you found us!
 
Ryan and Mackenzie said:
@Marje and Gracie
Thanks so much for your reply. A lot to think about. She's such a great little friend and I want to do what I can to help her.

Seems a lot of her symptoms are pointing towards pancreatitis. She definitely does lay down almost exclusively in the "meat loaf" position now, is very lethargic, isn't interested in water (although slowly eats all her daily calories when I bring it to her), and her skin seems a bit wrinkly (which may or may not point towards dehydration). I have contacted my vet and am awaiting a call back to discuss next steps (will also bring up insulin type and options). The only positive I see here right now is that she's getting calories in.

I will also look into tracking ketones, although the thought of trying to slide a ladle under her is ... interesting! Will see how that goes. I have a feeling the vet is going to want to do another blood/urine analysis so at least we can see where we're at. Unfortunately, that's another $500 gone.

Just want my little girl back. Has been a really emotional ride so far. My house just seems off with her like this.
Click to expand...
You’re welcome. That is expensive blood work!!! The clinic I go to is pricey but the most I’ve ever paid for a full panel including thyroid and specfPL for pancreatitis is about half that. If your vet wants to do a fructosamine test, IMHO, I’d decline it because you are home testing and are getting “real time” numbers. The fruc test is going to give you an average over a few weeks so the home testing is the most up-to-date. You could talk to the vet about just doing a superchem panel and another specfPL or even a snapfPL if he does them. (I’m kinda thinking he might not if he put her on Caninsulin as that is pretty old school).

If you think it might be the pancreatitis, I would suggest that you definitely discuss with your vet getting prescriptions for cerenia and ondansetron (zofran) for vomiting/nausea. She might not be vomiting but pancreatitis can cause both and especially nausea. Most vets just prescribe cerenia and “old school” ones might think it’s only for dogs or can only be given for three days but current research. Here is some info for cerenia and cats...scroll down to #5. Also, cerenia has been found to be a great anti-inflammatory. Ondansetron is a human chemo drug but works beautifully in most cats to help with nausea. It’s great to have both because they work at nausea from different modalities.

On the pancreatitis primer I linked, there is a link to a video on how to do subq fluids in cats at home. I’d talk to my vet about being able to do that because subq fluids can really help support a cat that is not feeling well provided there are no known heart conditions. Again...important to discuss with your vet.

Equally important is pain management and one of the best pain mgmt drugs for cats is buprenorphine. Of course, every cat is different. A lot of vets will prescribe tramadol but I’ve yet to see a cat that it really worked anywhere nearly as well as buprenorphine and tramadol can make them hyperactive for some reason.

The reason we are suggesting another insulin is because short acting insulins like caninsulin, vetsulin, novolin/humulin N, etc, drop the BG very fast and then it tends to rise almost equally as fast so the cat’s BG is up and down and up and down. Generally. ProZinc was designed for cats and does a better job than the short acting insulins; the duration for ProZinc “can be” 10-12 hours depending on the cat so shots are also given every 12 hours although there is a Tight Regulation Protocol developed by Dr. Hodgkins for shooting every 8 hours depending on the numbers.

Lantus and Levemir are human insulins but they give the best long duration, flat curves and cats have a better chance of going into remission with these insulins. They are, of course, the most expensive. But once the kitty gets regulated, there is potential for maintaining a nice level of BG. Of course, there is no predicting how long it might take to reach the dose that gets them into good regulation as we increase much more slowly than vets do (who like to increase and decrease insulin 1u at time...:mad::mad: We don’t typically do that here unless we know we have a high dose cat.

I hope this has given you more info. Please feel free to tag me if you have other questions.
 
Hello and welcome Ryan and Mackenzie. Neko started out on Caninsulin. Where are you located? It's more a Canadian or British thing - for some reason a lot of the older vets there haven't got onto the new insulins yet. Both Neko and I were much happier when I switched her to Lantus. Caninsulin can work for some cats, but a lot of our Caninsulin users end of switching.

Can I ask what food allergies Mackenzie has? The Natural Balance Chicken and Pea is 13% carbs, and we usuallyr recommend food under 10% carbs for diabetics. Here is a food list that many of us use. I have kitties with allergies/IBD so have spent some time combing through lists for appropriate foods.
 
Hi guys,

Sorry for the late reply.

Hate to say it, but help isn't needed anymore as my dear MacKenzie is no longer with us. She took a turn for the worse last night and we got her in to see the vet this morning. After an X-ray, we found her lungs and chest cavity had filled with fluid and also found a growth on her lung. We made the difficult decision to stop this now, rather than draw it out. It would have gotten her eventually. We buried her this afternoon out in a beautiful meadow beside her old playmate, Bailey. Sun was shining, birds were chirping ... was the perfect moment.

Anyways, I'm totally heartbroken but appreciate your guys help regardless.
 
So sorry to hear it was MacKenzie's time to leave you, Ryan....no matter how long we have them, it's never long enough.

Fly free sweet MacKenzie and land softly! There are many at the Bridge to welcome you and keep you company until the ones you love most come to be with you forever cat_wings>o
you always said I was your angel...now it's time to get my wings.jpg
 
Oh Ryan....I am just seeing this. I am so very sorry. I know what it is like to lose your 9 year old baby so suddenly and unexpectedly and my heart breaks for you all.

Gentle journey, sweet MacKenzie. You are so loved.
 
Thanks for your kind words. Was the most difficult decision I've had to make, but I know now it was a display of kindness to end her suffering. Something I've struggled with the last few days. Wish all your kitties the best of health.
 
I just saw this...so sorry for your loss. It takes a lot of courage to let go, you did the right thing at the right time. I know our animals are alive and well with God waiting for us. God bless.
 
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