stupid stupid mistake, accidentally double dosed

eeeek, I just got U-100 needles and made the stupid stupid stupid mistake of accidentally giving her one unit instead of 0.5 units of prozinc. What do I do? I just did it, so I know it won't set in immediately. I have dry food on hand, I'm assuming I should put it out right away. is there anything else I can do right now?

 

I put out the dry food and since she loves it, she immediately chowed down on it. I have plans to go out with some friends for a few hours--if I'm back in 3 hours and leave the dry food out (since high bg is better than super low), will that probably be okay? oy, I know better and should have double checked the conversion sheet before dosing. Any advice is greatly appreciated.

 

I wouldn't recommend leaving after giving him a double dose.

 

is there anything else I can or should do or is it just a matter of wait to watch for signs of hypo?

 

Do you have the full kit, HC food, karo syrup, honey, etc and the instructions printed out?

 

Pretty much just test and watch for signs of hypo. Dry food is going to take awhile to kick in, and she starts dropping fast you may need to break out the HC canned food or even the Karo syrup, but you also don't want to jack her up too high on the carbs because it will also take awhile for those to clear her system again.

I also second the not going out until you know she is safely out of the woods on this double dosing. I don't know how quickly PZI will clear as far as a possible hypo is concerned as my only experience is with Lantus and Levemir but those two hypo watch can be as long as 16 hours because of their shed which if I understand correctly PZI doesn't have.

Mel, Maxwell, Musette & The Fur Gang

 

I put a big bowl of dry food out and she ate a bunch. I have honey easily on hand but not the other things. I'm hoping that since it's a doubling of an already smallish dose, it should be counteractable with the dry food. No printer here.

 

I'm NOT an experienced person by any means, but I would start testing least every 20 or 30 minutes. Hopefully someone with more experience will come along and help you thru this. She might not come down fast at first, because of the dry food, but she might in awhile.

 

Responded in PZI.

 

she's at 164 on a relion confirm, and it's probably 40 min after her shot. She was at 155 pre-shot.

 

The problem maybe in that she may start dropping faster than the dry food can get in her system to counteract it, about all you can really do is test and keep an eye on her. if she starts dropping fast and the dry food doesnt seem to bring her back up fast enough you may have to intervene with the honey. Sometimes it turns out no harm no foul, other times they will drop like a stone, there is just no way of knowing until it happens, this is where yur meter becomes your best friend.

Also never under estimate the power of even a tiny bit of insulin, this is a very powerful hormone and as we all know every cat is different. What will send one diving into the basement may not effect another one.

Mel, Maxwell, Musette & The Fur Gang

 

Now that there are some other eyes on you, I'm going step away.
Good luck and keep testing! Its always better to be safe than sorry.

 

is every 30 min frequent enough? If I hit +6 and she's okay, do I need to keep testing that frequently afterwards? When we first started out trying to find the right dose, we got as high as 0.8 (with lc canned food) and she never went hypo.

Thanks for all of the advice and for responding!!

 

Yes test every 30 minutes.

Do you have plenty of test strips? It could be a long night.

It's hard to say if +6 everything will be alright.some cats nadir is later then +6.

One thing is you gave 1 unit into 155. 155 is very close to a non diabetic number. Usually new memebers who don't have a lot of data or expiernce we will say not to give insulin under 200.
Your cats pancreas could be starting to work that's why her BG was @ 155 12 hrs after insulin.
I noticed on your SS you have really good numbers as if the Pancreas is working. So you need to be careful with the insulin.
You are doing a great job. Keep us posted with results tonight so you can get help.

 

Lots of test strips, thankfully. Sorry, I haven't updated my spreadsheet in a while--those numbers were when I was testing with the freestyle. Since the last entry on that sheet, I've been using the relion confirm, and I've gotten extremely similar readings. I've tested with both meters a few times and each time it's been off by exactly 5. freestyle is 5 higher. But thanks! I'm hoping she's close to coming off of the insulin and part of why I switched to the U-100 needles was so that I could do more exact smaller doses.

Just now, at 8pm PST she was 156, so it looks like she's started coming down a bit. She seems to be dozing on and off, but when I make a kissing noise she perks right up and is very attentive. I'll test again in 30 min and post the results then.

She was at 110 at +13, so the 155 was actually at +19. When I skip doses entirely she gets up into the mid 200's.

 

Those are some really good numbers. Her pancreas is diffently working. How much have you been giving her?

 

just updated the post above with some more details. I've been giving her 0.5 with the U40, and was going to go down to 0.4 with the U-100 and see how she does. The last few days she's been around 150 at around +15

 

Before you go gung ho into the u-100 use, could you update your spreadsheet? Folks will want to see how the smaller doses are working for her.

And make a nice large print out of the conversion table to post where you give the shoots. It really helps ensure accuracy and reduces mistakes.

 

Any opinions on if it's a good thing to get her up and running around or if it's better to let her rest and relax? Really hoping that this event doesn't screw up the progress we'd made...

 

Hi,
Just got on and saw this in PZI.
Just want to be clear. You used a U100 syringe for this shot, right? What did you draw up to on that syringe?

Carl

 

Not necessary to make her move around running. Exercise can lower BG's. You just want to make sure she's not acting spaced out or walking like she's drunk.

Carl

 

went to about 2.5 on the u-100. For some reason I had it in my mind that 1u on u-100 was 0.2, so I thought 2.5 was 0.5. Now I will probably never ever forget that 0.5u on u-100 is 0.2. I thought it looked wrong but stupidly assumed that maybe the tube was narrower on the inside and I just couldn't tell from the outside.

I'm updating a new ss now, but am struggling with how to mark/record when I test and she's too low to shoot. do I just stop recording until I shoot? It's making the timing of the + hours really wonky since I've shot at anywhere from +12 to +19.

 

97 at 8:30pm (1.75 hours after shot). oy, looks like it's starting to hit her. She was just laying down, so I brought the bowl of dry food over to her and she's munching a little. I'm hoping she won't get too full to eat since she's been snacking frequently (maybe every 15 min) since I put the dry food out. I don't want to hit her hard with honey just yet--what about if I mixed a little honey in with some water?

 

You are correct you don't want her to eat to much & get full. If she drops really low then she will be full & won't eat when you really need her to. I would hold off on food for a little bit longer.

I don't know about mixing water with honey. Most memebers will put the honey on their fingers & rub it on the cats gums.

So to wright the test results here in the post you could wright it like this
+1.75-97
When you input it on your SS input the shot under the time you gave it for example +20-155-.2. I don't have a really good example but take a look at Baxters SS.

 

OK, thanks for the verification on the dose. That was 1u.

As far as the SS goes.
Pick a spot where you shot at your "normal" shot time, no matter when that was.
That's your "zero", either AMPS or PMPS.

From there, just count hours, no matter how many, from that point, and put your test numbers in that block. For example, if you tested at +6, +9, then at +12, but didn't give a shot at +12, just type "NS" there. Then go forward to when you did give the shot. If it was +17, then go forward from that NS (+12) to the +5 column, and type in the amount of the dose then.
That is now your "zero" time. From there, just keep going forward how ever many hours from then to when you tested or shot and put the BG number in the corresponding block.

In your subject line on your threads in the future. what we really need to know is what the BG is, and how many hours you are at from the last shot you gave. So you can say AMPS 200, +7 65, for instance, or +19 150. Whatever the number is and how many hours past the last shot you are.
You're spreadsheet will look "odd", but we'll be able to count how many hours into a cycle you are, and it will match your subject line. It looks like your days of dosing 12 hours apart are behind you, and you'll be shooting "as needed" at a time that is most likely going to be more than 12 hours apart. Which is a good thing!

Carl
Carl

 

Have you gotten any more numbers? I'm thinking you want to test every 15-20 minutes. It will be a little while before the food you've given will show up in the BG numbers, and it may go lower before it starts coming up.

Carl

 

at 9pm, so +2.25 she was at 59. I mixed some hot water--maybe 3 tablespoons? into about two teaspoons worth of honey (but didn't mix it well, just swirled it around) and she drank at least a few teaspoons worth of it. She was acting a little sleepy, which makes sense as it's 9pm here, but now seems a good bit perkier. I'm going to mix a little wet food into the honey water combo since I'm sure she's going to drop again and I want to have something more potent ready. Thanks for continuing to read/post--I really appreciate it.

 

74 at 9:20/ +2.5, seems like the honey water and/or dry food from before is kicking in.

 

Not a problem, that's how we do this here. Somebody will stay with you for as long as you want or need us to!

I would test again in 30 or less. The food should start to show up soon, but it might raise the BG only short term, so this could be a long night. Definitely leave some room in snowflake's tummy, and feed just small portions. The honey will show up quick, but the boost won't last long. That dry food you fed will stick around longer.

Carl

 

Ok she is starting to drop a little low. Let the food kick in & the honey.
Carl is going to jump in & take over to help you. Carl is going to give you great advice. He is amazing!

You are doing a great job!

 

I'm going to test again in fifteen min--it's been 15 since I tested, so that will be 30 min.

At some point you guys are going to need to go to sleep--what should I wait for to be able to go to sleep myself? is there a number where, if she hits it after +6, she should be okay? when do you guys decide it's safe to sleep?

 

OK, just so you know, it's quarter till one here, but I don't work till 2PM tomorrow, so I can go to bed whenever, you're not going to be cutting into my beauty sleep. :lol:

What I would be looking for is for snowflake to give you a rising number for at least 3 tests in a row, and those should be from now onward with no more food given. You can continue to boost the BG with HC or sweets, but usually those boosts are short term things, and until nadir, they could disappear and the numbers could drop again.

There isn't a specific number to look for, just a consistent rise in BG. You might see a number that is higher than you might want to see, because there could be a bounce coming from the quick drop. But your SS doesn't show too much "bounce", it shows some really nice numbers actually.
The cycle that catches my eye most is on the 8th. You gave .4 on a 165, and at +3 you got an 84. So that was a 50% or so drop on less than half the dose snowflake got tonight. Of course, you didn't need to prop up the numbers with honey or dry that night, so it isn't quite the same thing.

Carl

 

have you got any high carb canned? If not, you can mix some of the honey into the canned

Give 1 teaspoon of the mix, test in 15 min , rinse & repeat until you get 3 rising tests.

The numbers (pieced together from your posts
155 ~ PMPS
164 ~ +.66, 7:15-ish
156 ~ +1.25, 8:00 pm PST
97 ~ +1.75, 8:30 pm
59 ~ +2.25, 9:00 pm
74 ~ +2.50, 9:20 pm

(The dry, when it kicks in, will take some time to clear out later)

 

haha, thanks!

at +3 she was 70, so I'm guessing the 9 that she came down was from the honey water maybe. She's been fine as low as the high 30's so I'm just going to try to keep it above 50 and see how things progress.

As to the numbers from the 8th, the one thing that I'm bad about is that I can't be sure my pre-shoot numbers are without food, since my cats have been grazers their whole lives they just won't eat enough at one time for me to be able to control that carefully, so it may have been that she had eaten recently when I got 165.

Still working on updating the spreadsheet, but it's not taking the number one priority. Luckily my boss and manager are both traveling right now, so if I need to come in late due to emergency, it should be okay. Plus I'm lucky that almost everyone on my team has pets, so they're understanding about this.

 

The numbers (pieced together from your posts
155 ~ PMPS
164 ~ +.66, 7:15-ish
156 ~ +1.25, 8:00 pm PST
97 ~ +1.75, 8:30 pm
59 ~ +2.25, 9:00 pm
74 ~ +2.50, 9:20 pm
70 ~ +3.00

feed a teaspoon and re-test in 15

"fine as low as the 30s" by visual inspection does not mean fine at cellular level.

 

no high carb canned. That will be one of the first things I get when I go shopping! Going to see if she'll eat a little of the honey/food/water mix. if she won't eat and dips below 40, I"ll do the honey on her gums thing, but I want to avoid that as much as possible.

 

The 79 and the 70 are basically the same number, so it's holding steady at this point. I'm glad to hear that you have dealt with lower numbers, so this isn't as much of a panic as it might be. I saw 40's a couple of times. The first time I freaked, the 2nd time not so much. I also shot blue numbers like you have been doing (actually my doses were a tad higher!). It looks like snowflake is trying hard to get off the insulin, and your numbers overall are terrific.

If you see a number of 70 or less next test, you may want to feed a little more food. Not sure if the honey is needed unless you see under 50, then by all means, do the honey.
Carl

 

I tried feeding her more of the food/honey mix and she was having NONE of it. now seems to be in a little bit of a mood. I smeared some of it on her paw so she'll at least lick it off when she cleans herself, but she seems totally alert. I'll test her again in ten min. Overall, I've been trying to keep her no-shoot number around 125, and I think it's been working reasonably well. I'm going on vacation in a week and am really hoping that she'll be okay with one shot a day while I'm gone. It's SO hard to find people who are willing/able to give insulin.

 

She may not be hungry at the moment. If you get a low reading, you'll have to do the honey to the gums routine.

Carl

 

155 ~ PMPS
164 ~ +.66, 7:15-ish
156 ~ +1.25, 8:00 pm PST
97 ~ +1.75, 8:30 pm
59 ~ +2.25, 9:00 pm
79 ~ +2.50, 9:20 pm
70 ~ +3.00
68 ~ +3.5 10:30pm Updated thinking this is still good

 

A few more hours to go.

Any signs of lip licking, or heaving , like she might vomit?

 

nope--she was just giving herself a bath and is now laying down upright with her little paws tucked under herself, looking very alert.

 

Well, the number itself is okay, but she isn't coming up at all. The dry food she ate between 10 and 11 should have hit your meter by now, so the insulin is still winning the tug-of-war.
I would rub some honey on her gums. She's still a couple of hours from what should be her nadir.

Carl

 

glad she's hanging in.

Keep on with the protocol here - if she won't eat, you'll need to do some honey on her gums.

Are there any places she can get into that you can't get her? I don't want her deciding that you're annoying and go into hiding where you can't monitor her.

 

woo hoo, she's eating the honey/wet/dry food mix now. there are a few places she could get to, but luckily she doesn't really do that. hoping the honey in the mix will kick in soon, but even if it doesn't at least she got something else in her.

 

Good!
Can you give that 30 minutes to kick in and test again?

Carl

 

Will do. Will test at 11:15 so long as she continues to look alert.

 

keep hanging in.

Assuming you can keep this going, when the dry food does start kicking in (it has a rather delayed onset which is why its not so helpful for hypos), she is likely to go really high, both from the carbs as well as from going low. This is to be expected, so just wait it out.

 

How long should the dry food be expected to take? I gave it to her pretty much as soon as I realized I made the mistake, expecting that it would take some time to kick in--at this point, just about 4 hours ago, and she's munched on it occasionally since then, in addition to the other did bits I put her way. I think she has a pretty good intuitive sense of needing to eat something, since she is a cat I couldn't force feed if I wanted to. I'll put the food in front of her and strongly suggest, but she has to choose to eat it. I'll just keep on testing every 1/2 hour. If she does go high, I should just wait that out, right? don't do anything until it comes back down, if it does?

 

I agree with BJ. You might see an ugly number compared to the rest of them on your SS (like a pink number). Ignore it, and don't up the dose. And no matter how fast you see it, if it's less than 12 hours from tonight's shot, hold off on shooting.
I'd say that no matter what number (shootable number of course) you see at +12 from this last shot, stick with .5 or less. The bounce will clear on it's own.


Well, even though it doesn't look like it, the dry food has shown up in her numbers. It's just that the dose of insulin made them impossible to see. If you hadn't given her that dry food right after you realized the dose wasn't right, she probably would have gone critically lower. The dry food avoided the crash, but it hasn't really made her numbers skyrocket. It may or may not do that later in the cycle.

Carl

 

When I did the same thing with Spitzer, I believe it started kicking in between 6-8 hours after he'd eaten it, but I'd have to go look up the posts.

At your regular shot time IF she is over 200, you might do a token dose. Some cats become more sensitive to insulin after a hypo. You were giving around 0.5 units or less and extending the period, so you may well be able to wait until the next shot time. Just be cautious - you can't get the insulin out once it goes in!

I'm do apologize, but I've got to crash and get some sleep for tomorrow so I can function at work. My sleep disorder is screeching at me, *sigh*

 

I"m thinking I'll skip it no matter what until at least tomorrow at noon. Thanks for staying up with me and go get some sleep! I think I'm okay from here. It was so helpful having you guys so responsive right at the beginning.

 

155 ~ PMPS
164 ~ +.66, 7:15-ish
156 ~ +1.25, 8:00 pm PST
97 ~ +1.75, 8:30 pm
59 ~ +2.25, 9:00 pm
79 ~ +2.50, 9:20 pm
70 ~ +3.00
68 ~ +3.5 10:30pm
97 ~ +4.25 11:15pm think this is the honey in the honey/wet/dry mixture, maybe plus boost from dry.

 

OK, good. We want to see another rising number without more food. 30 minutes?

Carl

 

Question in the meantime...

Do your u100 syringes have half-unit marks?

 

they always have food out--should i take it away for 30 min? we're not at the nadir yet, so if she's hungry i'd prefer to let her eat.

 

they do not, unfortunately.

 

I'd hide the food for 30 minutes. If you get a higher number, then I think you could put the food back out and she should be good for the rest of the night. If it makes you feel better about it, you could set your alarm to check her in a couple of hours to make sure she's still okay.

You can get u100's with 1/2 unit marks, which will make these tiny doses easier to manage. On u40 doses like .2, .4 or .6, you'd have a line that matched up on the u100s. You'd only have to eyeball if you were dosing "odd" doses like .1, .3 or .5, and that eyeballing would put you right between the marks on the u100s. Just a thought.

Carl

 

okay, she's at 111 now at +5. I feel a lot better. I'm going to leave the dry out for her to eat as she sees fit overnight, and then take it away in the morning and replace with her usual wet food.

Thank you everyone for your help! Think it's time to go to sleep...

 

Yeah, I think she's okay for the night, especially if she's got the option of eating. Great job dealing with the low numbers tonight!

If you have any questions in the morning on dose, make sure to post them here. I may not be around, but someone is always here.

Sleep well.
Carl

 

Great job getting thru this with a cool head! And thank you Carl & BJM for keeping tabs on them. I knew she & Snowflake were in good hands.

(You should probably take the 911 tag off of your original post. Just go to the first post, hit edit and then change the tag from 911 to none)

 

Glad to see she came back up alright.




(Turns out some of my fatigue is an asthma flare from a virus. *sigh*)

 

So, how are things this morning?
Could you make one little tweak to the SS? On last night's cycle, can you change that green "1" to a 1.0 and get rid of the background color? That will make it look like a shot dose and not a really scary meter reading.
:smile:

Carl

 

I tried a bunch of times to change the format, but it kept defaulting back to the conditional formatting. might have to bring it back into excel to make the change. This morning she was 496! holy bejesus! must be the remnants of the dry food. at +14 I gave her 0.4u and switched all of the food back to canned. Plus I got her up and running around with her favorite toy, the laser pointer. I'll post where she is when I get back home after work.

 

Yikes! I was expecting high, but not quite that high. But good that you went with .4 and removed dry from the menu!

Carl

 

If you ever needed proof how much dry affects the glucose, that ought to do it!

Aren't you glad we warned you? (been there, did that myself, so don't feel bad!)

Please pick up some canned high carb to put in the cupboard so that if this happens again (you are at low doses, so its possible), you can use that, rather than dry food. The aftermath of using a teaspoon at a time of high carb canned doesn't last quite as long because you can feed as you go, rather than free-feeding dry and guessing when it will kick in and help offset the insulin.

 

Just popping in to see how things went the rest of the evening.

You did a great job last night!

I want to invite you over to the PZI board. There are lots of expeirenced members that can help you with dosing everyday. All you have to do is post & you will get help. ;-) I am there everyday. Hope to see you over there.

 

thanks everyone! So I just got home from work and at +11 she was at 196. so much better! They had no food left, so I fed and gave her 0.4 units, since the 196 is probably a hungry 196. I think tomorrow morning will be the real test, and yes, high carb wet food is definitely on the grocery list! Thanks again for everyone's help last night! it made all the difference.

 

That is a much nicer number to come home to!

Carl

 

Try to get a couple test I tonight to see how 196 responds to .4.
You might need to lower the dose next time. After a hypo situtation cats will be more sensitive to insulin. Usually after a hypo you should decrease the next dose. Hopefully, you won't have anymore of those.

Come on over to PZI.

 

Oy. at +2 she's at 77. I'm not going to free feed the dry tonight, as the spike from this morning was just horrible, but I think I'll give her a few pieces of kibble. Guess the 0.4 was way too much

 

The other possibility is that when you got the 196, the number wasn't rising, but that's probably not the case. Or like Jenn said, she may be insulin sensitive after that low series of numbers last night.

Did you hit the grocery store today for the HC canned food by any chance?

Carl

 

Would you say that she actually went hypo though? she's had many readings in the 50s before, and her non-diabetic biological sister has been in the 50's the few times i've tested her. plus, she never had any signs of being hypo.

 

"Hypo" is a term that gets used frequently, but in last night's case, technically no, she wasn't hypoglycemic. She probably would have been had you not intervened. Literally, any BG number below normal (50 on a human glucometer) would be hypoglycemic, which just means blood glucose lower than the normal range. And she could be hypoglycemic without showing clinical signs routinely associated with hypoglycemia.

If you had not caught her low number early in the cycle last night, she very well could have gone way low, so it was a potential bad situation avoided.

But if a cat goes close to the edge of "hypo", it seems that they can be more sensitive to a similar dose the next cycle or two. At least many people here have experienced that.

Carl

edited it to fix gender. I called her a him!

 

Good to know. She just ate so I'm going to test again at the next hour point and see where she is, and if it's leveled out I'll let her be but with lots of wet food out.

 

unfortunately she did not level out. she was at 34 when I tested at +3, so I immedeately put some honey on her gums. she really did not like that! I gave her some more dry kibble, because of course I was so concerned about her that I just came home after work, not thinking this could happen tonight too, so I didn't get any hc wet food. I also mixed some honey into hot water and she drank all of that. I then tested again at +3.25 and she was up to 56. She's lying down now and has a bowl of kibble and some more warm honey water in front of her, but is probably full at this point. Will keep testing her every 1/2 hour again. le sigh.

 

I was hoping that wouldn't happen... OK, so apparently .4 is too much into a number that low. Looks like you'll be getting into mini-micro dosing. This is great in one way, but more excitement than you probably need late at night, huh?
Carl

 

definitely more excitement than I wanted tonight! I'm taking a big test on Saturday so I was planning on doing practice tests last night and tonight, but can't keep my attention away from her for long enough to do the test, as it's at least 75 min each in two chunks, so that's been very annoying. Plus, I'll be going on vacation for a week next week, and was really hoping I could just do one shot per day for her, since it's $$$ to have a pet sitter come twice a day. really hoping this doesn't mess that up.

 

Have you posted where about you live to see if any other board members live nearby?

Carl

 

145 at +4, so I think that must be the honey and honey water kicking in. I'll test again in 1/2 an hour. And no, I haven't posted where I live on the board. Is that something people do?

 

Good that the numbers came up, and yes, due to the honey.
You can add your location to your avatar, like mine says "hunting island, sc". Nobody lives too close to me, but there are a couple of ladies in PZI who are actually neighbors. Sometimes a nearby member can visit to show new people how to home test for instance. There might be someone close who can cat-sit or at least drop by to test and shoot.
Sometimes people just post in Community or Health and ask "anyone live close to fill-in-the-blank" or "looking for good FD vet near fill-in-the-blank".

Carl

 

okay, 165 at +4.5, so i think I'm going to go to sleep. leaving lots of wet food out and counting on the dry she's already eaten to continue to kick in throughout the rest of the night. dreading the number i'll see in the morning

 

Good job again with the low numbers! Hopefully she won't be quite as high in the AM.
Sleep well,
Carl

 

Wow...Snowflake is really keeping you on your toes, isn't she!?
You've done a really good job handling these numbers!

 

Well, just woke up to 446. not great at all, but better than 496. Gave her 0.4 and am going to hang around a bit before leaving for work so I can check her at +1. I'm thinking at +12 I shouldn't shoot if she's anything under 250 to just see what her own body does, and maybe only 0.2 units if she's between 250 and 300.

 

So at just barely not quite +1, she's at 498. very frustrated. I must leave for work, so I suppose all I can do is hope the insulin kicks in soon...

 

Typical prozinc onset is 2-3 hours after shots. The food hit and the prozinc will shortly.

Carl

 

Okay, just got home and at +13, she was at 330. That's about 130 higher than last night, so I gave 0.3 (maybe less since there was one bubble I couldn't get rid of). Let's see how tonight goes...

 

Remember to breathe!

And remember its a process, not an event! :smile:

Its OK to start a new post for each day when its not a direct continuation of a specific issue. Many of us title them with the date and cat's name, plus a bit of a headline, such as test values, or a note. When you do decide to post another topic, you can link to the previous one so that folks can back track if so inclined.

 

I agree with BJ. You can start a new thread. And next time, don't use the word "stupid" (not even once!). Every time I've replied I'm thinking "hey, it wasn't stupid, quit saying that!" :lol:

And please let us know what we can call you instead of "snowflake's mom"? We're sort of on a first name basis here ;-)

Carl

 

Will do! Going to start a new thread in PZI forum, with link to this!