? Tiger's Wild Ride on Insulin Train

Discussion in 'Feline Health - (Welcome & Main Forum)' started by Jacque- Tiger & Jazz Man, Mar 24, 2020.

  1. Jacque- Tiger & Jazz Man

    Jacque- Tiger & Jazz Man Member

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    Last edited: Mar 24, 2020
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  2. Diane Tyler's Mom

    Diane Tyler's Mom Well-Known Member

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    Hi Jacque, don't be so hard on yourself, you are doing the best you can, we are all here to help you, we are like a family.
    I know what panic attacks are like, and yes some could feel like you are having a heart attack. I used to get them very bad, now under control with paxil and xanax when needed. I am a widow and have a daughter with a chronic pain disease, she is in pain 24/7 , no cure , not many treatments, tried them all, anyway so I know what you mean, everything builds up and it seems hopeless, even though this forum is for our kitties, I have found that you can talk about anything if you choose to and everyone here is so supportive and caring. Tiger is a very handsome boy
    We are all here for you, gentle hugs:bighug:
     
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  3. Jacque- Tiger & Jazz Man

    Jacque- Tiger & Jazz Man Member

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    Man...sorry for what you are going through :bighug:
    I try not to vent here, I use fb groups for that lol. Because I have a sailors mouth lol.
     
  4. Diane Tyler's Mom

    Diane Tyler's Mom Well-Known Member

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    You think you have a sailors mouth, you should hear me, plus being from New Jersey doesn't help lol, I didn't mean to post this twice, I'll post on this one from now on
     
  5. Jacque- Tiger & Jazz Man

    Jacque- Tiger & Jazz Man Member

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    189+8 and if he does what he always does..he'll start to shoot up fast.
     
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  6. Susan & Claudio

    Susan & Claudio Member

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    Diane
    Watch what you say about us Jersey girls, lol.
    I may not be from north jersey, but I am from Trenton.
     
  7. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

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    I try not to swear here, but if there was sound on with the posts, I swear up a "blue streak" sometimes.

    We do try to "keep our language" a bit tamer here on the message board.

    p.s. Almost forgot my own "Please start a new thread Post" and started to reply in your old thread. OOPS!

    Ever had a panic attack in the dentist's chair, while your mouth is numb with novocaine, and one of those rubber dams in your mouth? It wasn't pretty, let me tell you.
     
  8. Jacque- Tiger & Jazz Man

    Jacque- Tiger & Jazz Man Member

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    lol thanks I needed a laugh
     
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  9. Diane Tyler's Mom

    Diane Tyler's Mom Well-Known Member

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    Hey my Jersey sister, how are you all managing there
     
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  10. Jacque- Tiger & Jazz Man

    Jacque- Tiger & Jazz Man Member

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    Well I told ya he'd go way up. PMPS 466. Gave him 6.5u, he ate good whole can of Friskies. So, when should I test tonight? +?
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2020
    Reason for edit: added more
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  11. Chris & China (GA)

    Chris & China (GA) Well-Known Member

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    How about starting with a +2?
     
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  12. Jacque- Tiger & Jazz Man

    Jacque- Tiger & Jazz Man Member

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    And then what?
     
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  13. Jacque- Tiger & Jazz Man

    Jacque- Tiger & Jazz Man Member

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    +5 and +9?
     
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  14. Chris & China (GA)

    Chris & China (GA) Well-Known Member

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    since he's not dropping that fast, you could probably just get the +5 and if he's doing good, call it a night
     
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  15. Jacque- Tiger & Jazz Man

    Jacque- Tiger & Jazz Man Member

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    Thank You
     
  16. Jacque- Tiger & Jazz Man

    Jacque- Tiger & Jazz Man Member

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    Well @Chris & China (GA) I have tried for several days to switch his shoots earlier. As you can tell I have failed. As of now his first shoot today was at 11:30am. Yes, I know what you guys are gonna say...it's fine. But hell....I'm still gonna kick myself in the ass for not being able to get my ass up in the morning. 3hrs. of sleep a night is wearing me down. Anyway......
     
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  17. Jacque- Tiger & Jazz Man

    Jacque- Tiger & Jazz Man Member

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    Look at all the pretty colors!!!
     

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  18. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

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    Pryed my eyes open at 5 am. Went back to sleep. Anything I needed to do could wait. That was after waking up every 2 hours, from 10 PM to 4 AM because my mind would not stop thinking and worrying about life. At least I don't get hot flashes any more, to wake me up in a cold sweat.

    Jacque, I bet you hate seeing all those rainbow colors on Tiger's SS.

    Hey, it's not pure black/red anymore. I know you'd like to see some improvement, but at least he is getting some lower numbers these days.
     
  19. Jacque- Tiger & Jazz Man

    Jacque- Tiger & Jazz Man Member

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    I'm not sure if I have gone through menopause yet. When I was 40ish I had a hysterectomy, they left one ovary. I recall having minor hot flashes, mood swings. I'm going to be 55 this Sept. I've always had a problem with my brain lol. Hard to shut it off. Med's help but make me tooooooo tired and the side effects kick me in the ass.
    Definitely Definitely LOVE not seeing ALL BLACK AND RED.
    How long should I keep him on the 6.5u's? A week?
     
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  20. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

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    Jacque, I would not hold Tiger on the 6.5U dose of Vetsulin more than 1 or 2 more cycles. I think he needs to go back up to 7 U.

    What I really think, is he needs to go on a different insulin. Prozinc may be worth a try again, now that you have gotten his numbers down a bit. He needs more duration than the vetsulin is giving him.
     
  21. Jacque- Tiger & Jazz Man

    Jacque- Tiger & Jazz Man Member

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    Hold him a couple more at the 6.5u's then what? Should I lower it first and wait until we get the swinging inbetween the shots under control?
    Should I talk to Doc about putting him back on Prozinc? I think she said that the Prozinc and Vetsulin are the same dose..when we switched from the Prozinc to the Vetsulin it was the same unit's. I have to stop there this afternoon and pick up some more Vetsulin I'll see what she says about the switch. I wish I could find a cheap Vet near me that knows feline diabetes. My vet isn't an expert, she knows enough just like most Vets.
     
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  22. Jacque- Tiger & Jazz Man

    Jacque- Tiger & Jazz Man Member

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    Or shoot you said up the units to 7 after a couple more cycles..not lower :facepalm:
     
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  23. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

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    Hey, you're tired. So am I. Took me 5 tries to spell "you're" right, then used the spell checker in the end anyway.
    Yup, higher on the dose. Not for 1 or 2 more cycles. Then I'd increase again back to the 7U.

    Yes, please talk to your vet again about insulin for Tiger.
    If you do go back to Prozinc for Tiger, I'd do that at the same dose as the Vetsulin he is on, at the time you make the switch.
     
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  24. Jacque- Tiger & Jazz Man

    Jacque- Tiger & Jazz Man Member

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    Actually, I'm going to tell her I'm going to shoot him every 8. I can't afford to give Tiger 7u's of Prozinc, I can barely afford the Vetsulin 7u's
     
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  25. Jacque- Tiger & Jazz Man

    Jacque- Tiger & Jazz Man Member

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    And going to a higher dose like 7.5 unit on the Vetsulin would be too much right? And he would still have HIGH preshot readings. And it still wouldn't last any longer than 8-9hrs. right?
     
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  26. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

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    So 7U x twice a day is 14 units.
    Divide by 3 to get your every 8 hour dose.
    Which would be 4.5U.

    BUT I think you might want to reduce the dose to no more than 4 units, maybe even 3.5 units, because there will be some slight overlap in doses when you shoot every 8 hours.
    Yup. He'd still have HIGH pre-shot numbers. He needs better duration.
    I think 7.5U would drop Tiger into hypo territory more frequently. Like on 3/15/20, when he dropped from that yellow into the green 70.

    Even the 3 times a day, every 8 hour dosing may do that. Drop him into hypo territory.
    It's why I'm suggesting pulling back on the dose a bit, to 3.5U or 4U max if you try the every 8 hour dosing.

    There are some days now, where it looks like Tiger gets closer to 9 to 10 hours of duration before the BG's shoot back up too high. If we can slow the bounces, control the bounces a bit more, the BG's should not shoot up so high. That often involves more intensive monitoring, and propping up the BG levels with food. I didn't think you had the time or resources or energy to devote to that method.

    If there was only some way, to keep him out of the dry high carb food, that would make a big difference also.
     
  27. Chris & China (GA)

    Chris & China (GA) Well-Known Member

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    If you've had trouble keeping a 12 hour schedule, going to an 8 hour schedule may make you totally crazy. Doing shots 3 times a day is a LOT harder on the caretaker than every 12 hours.

    I know you have to keep dry out for the other kitties, but have you ever tried putting them on a feeding schedule instead of leaving it down all the time? They will make your life miserable for awhile, but they WILL get used to it after awhile. Then you could feed Tiger separately from the others and when everybody's done, pick it up
     
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  28. Diane Tyler's Mom

    Diane Tyler's Mom Well-Known Member

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    Just a thought, if Jacque ever wanted d to switch to lantus pens there are 3 members selling them in the supply closet for a very reasonable price
     
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  29. Jacque- Tiger & Jazz Man

    Jacque- Tiger & Jazz Man Member

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    Talked to Doc and showed her a printout of the ss, said ya definitely not lasting long enough. She said I could do the 8hrs at a lower dose like what you said @Deb & Wink, she said 4 but I think I'm going to do 3.5 like you suggested @Deb & Wink. Doc said I could switch to Prozinc but that will get super expensive at the high dose he is on now. The Vetsulin through my Vet is $40. Prozinc $100. How do I start the 8 hr? Which preshoot time?
    And I had thought about switching to Lantus @Diane Tyler's Mom..the thing is, what happens when I can't find it cheaper through the supply closet, craigslist, ebay etc. Then I'd have to pay full price through the Canada Pharmacy.
    @Chris & China (GA) I took away the Blue Wilderness a couple days ago, forgot to tell you guys. UGH!! For the most part he stays back in the bathroom, his choice. The 2 cans a day of Friskies seems to be filling him up. When I switch to the 8hrs, I'll figure out how much to feed for bf, lunch and dinner. All I can do is try the 8 and see if I can manage it. I'm not going to take my Doxepin for panic attacks at night anymore, I'll take it during the daytime instead. That way I'll be able to wake my ass up in the morning.
    I got my stethoscope out and listened to his heart. It sounds great now, doesn't sound like he is struggling, no loud heartbeat on the rightside anymore. Doc said go ahead and take him off the Lasix.
     
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2020
    Reason for edit: added info
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  30. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

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    I'd suggest morning some time. When you are a bit fresher.
    Remember, Vetsulin likes that 20-30 minute lead time for meals, before you give the shot.
    Early bird or night owl Jacque?
    6 am, 2 pm, 10 pm
    7 am, 3 pm, 11 pm
    8 am, 4 pm, 12 pm
    9 am, 5 pm, 1 am (next day)
    10 am, 6 pm, 2 am (next day)
    OK.

    Yup. I'm not a night owl, and often don't get on here too early in the morning these days. Trying to take care of too many other things in the last couple of months.

    So, pick your times from my suggestions earlier in this post reply to you Jacque.

    Good news that Tiger's heart sounds better and you have stopped the Lasix per your vet. You have your own stethoscope?!?!? Wow Jacque, I'm impressed.
     
  31. Jacque- Tiger & Jazz Man

    Jacque- Tiger & Jazz Man Member

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    I'm a bigtime NIGHT OWL always have been. The last one would likely work better for me. I fall asleep around 3 or 4 am. When do I start the schedule? Today his morning shot was at 11:30 am.
     
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  32. Jacque- Tiger & Jazz Man

    Jacque- Tiger & Jazz Man Member

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    I have all kinds of toys and med's. With all the furbabies I can't take them in if they just have the "cat cold". I'm fully stocked with antibiotics for different sicknesses..eyes/ears/nose.
     
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  33. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

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    How about tomorrow morning, 10 AM your time.
    That would mean you would test Tiger at 10 am, feed Tiger immediately, 20-30 minutes later, give him his shot.
    You will not have as much leeway with the shot times, on the every 8 hour schedule. You need to stick pretty close to those times. Or there will be too much overlap on the insulin doses. More risk of hypo.

    Spreadsheet is going to get messy, just do the best you can to record test times and doses.

    There used to be an every 8 hour SS version, but I think that would get a bit complicated, since you don't know if Tiger will need to stick to this every 8 hour dosing schedule. Or if you can.
     
  34. Jacque- Tiger & Jazz Man

    Jacque- Tiger & Jazz Man Member

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    His ss is gonna look a lot different as far as pre-shoots. @Chris & China (GA) is there a way to change the ss for this? I'm going to start him on the 8hr tomorrow morning at 10am
     
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  35. Jacque- Tiger & Jazz Man

    Jacque- Tiger & Jazz Man Member

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    We both said commented basically the same thing at the same time lol
     
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  36. Jacque- Tiger & Jazz Man

    Jacque- Tiger & Jazz Man Member

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    Nevermind @Chris & China (GA) I'll just wing it for now. Depends on me and Tiger how we do.
     
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  37. Chris & China (GA)

    Chris & China (GA) Well-Known Member

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    The only person I think has the 8 hour spreadsheet template is @Marje and Gracie since it's so unusual for anybody to try TID dosing.
     
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  38. Diane Tyler's Mom

    Diane Tyler's Mom Well-Known Member

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    @Jacque- Tiger & Jazz Man hi there , depending on the dose one pen could last 6 months, if the expiration date is 2022 and kept in the frig it will be good until you use it. There is also a discount card called Single Care, I see at rite aid one pen is 68.68 , Walgreen's 69.45, they list other pharmacies also, and they said they will fill it for a pet, just need the script from your vet.
    I know what you mean about money being tough
    Maybe down the road you can buy 2 or 3 pens from the supply closet, wishing you all the best
     
  39. Jacque- Tiger & Jazz Man

    Jacque- Tiger & Jazz Man Member

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    Maybe right now I just want him to live and get steady before I go and start changing up on his insulin. Not sure what the conversion would be for Lantus right now Tiger needs a total of 14u's a day...My vet said she would write a script but she said it will be real expensive because of how much he will need.
     
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  40. Jacque- Tiger & Jazz Man

    Jacque- Tiger & Jazz Man Member

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    @Deb & Wink, @Chris & China (GA) the Lantus would be the same amount correct? Or a little lower? That would cost me a fortune...right?
     
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  41. Jacque- Tiger & Jazz Man

    Jacque- Tiger & Jazz Man Member

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    Just read this...The disposable, prefilled pen of Lantus. Each pen contains 3 mL of solution. There are 100 units of insulin glargine in each mL. That adds up to a total of 300 units of insulin per Lantus pen. Correct me if I'm wrong..that would mean with Tigers' current dose I would have 21ish days..because he needs 14u's a day right now.
     
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  42. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

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    That calculation is correct Jacque. An insulin pen contains 300 Units of Lantus, and at Tiger's current dosage, that would last you 21 days.

    But it is possible, that Tiger would not need such high doses of Lantus forever.
    There is no way to know if the Lantus dose would be less than the 14U a day of Vetsulin that you currently use.
    The hope, and this is really an unknown, but a hope, would be that Tiger needs less and less insulin as you get him better controlled.
    The possibility is that the lantus would work a lot better for Tiger than the Vetsulin does. In that case, he might need a lot less insulin than he is currently getting. It's a big huge unknown at this point.

    You have to remember that the lantus concentration is 2.5 times the concentration as the Vetsulin. So you may need a whole lot less insulin. Unknown how much or how little.

    You'd also need U100 syringes. You can't use U40 syringes with Lantus.

    Mark's Marine Pharmacy in Canada is still the best place to purchase Lantus at the lowest cost. You may need to get the 10ml Vial. That contains 1000 units of insulin. That would last you 71 days, at the current 14U a day.

    How long does the Vetsulin vial last you now? How much does that cost you for 3 weeks worth of Vetsulin insulin?

    How long is the Vetsulin vial going to last you with doing TID dosing? If the dose has to be increased to 5 or 6 or 7 units every 8 hours?

    With the 20 cats you take care of, you have to balance the cost of everything you do.
     
  43. Jacque- Tiger & Jazz Man

    Jacque- Tiger & Jazz Man Member

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    @Deb & Wink It's 9a Tiger's AMPS is 213+11ish, shoot the 3.5u's right? Of course he would just have to be lower than his norm this morning:banghead:
     
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  44. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

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    Yes, shoot now.
    Then we reevaluate at the next +8 dose time.
     
  45. Jacque- Tiger & Jazz Man

    Jacque- Tiger & Jazz Man Member

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    Grrr, I'll be a half hour off lol
     
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  46. Jacque- Tiger & Jazz Man

    Jacque- Tiger & Jazz Man Member

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    I'm still on the same vial of Vetsulin that I bought almost exactly a month ago. It cost me $40. I sooooo suck at math. Grrrr. A big vial of Lantus would break me and the what if's are like you had said..If he needs a high dose of that, it will bankrupt me and I won't be able to help my other furbabies.
     
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  47. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

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    Steady yellows so far today. I see you gave the next 3.5U at +8 for that TID dosing you are trying.

    p.s. Date should be 3/27/20 for today.
    Had to look down in the corner of my computer, to verify I had the right date.
     
  48. Jacque- Tiger & Jazz Man

    Jacque- Tiger & Jazz Man Member

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    Ya gonna try the tid and ya I just noticed the date myself..I oopsed lol
     
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  49. Jacque- Tiger & Jazz Man

    Jacque- Tiger & Jazz Man Member

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  50. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

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    SS for TID Looks ok to me Jacque.
     
  51. Jacque- Tiger & Jazz Man

    Jacque- Tiger & Jazz Man Member

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  52. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

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  53. Jacque- Tiger & Jazz Man

    Jacque- Tiger & Jazz Man Member

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