Treating Ziggy (Thread #3)

Discussion in 'Feline Health - (The Main Forum)' started by Natalie and Ziggy, May 8, 2018.

  1. Natalie and Ziggy

    Natalie and Ziggy Member

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2018
    Hi again, everyone. This is a continuation of this thread.

    I'm continuing to test Ziggy and administer 2.25 U of Vetsulin every twelve hours. We had a very successful Sunday, in which we got a full curve. Since then, I've been testing Ziggy three times a day. The past few tests have shown an increase in his levels (Monday's AM spike was particularly nasty) and he's been a little less willing to sit down for blood testing.

    I think this might have to do with the fact that the Friskies Seafood pack comes with four different flavors, and the Mariner's Catch was by far his favorite. He would eat all of it until he was full. Now that we're out and on the three other flavors, he's not eating as much because he doesn't seem to like them in comparison. So every time I take a test, he's begging for food.

    His litterbox behavior has gotten a little worse, too, and he's peeing very frequently compared to last week. Nothing too bad, though. No poop tracks, at least!

    Other than that, things are going well. He continues to be tricky to test in the AM because I can't get him to sit still (he keeps trying to lure me into the kitchen for feedy times, and my roommates walking around gets him a bit alarmed).

    I will keep you all posted should anything out of the ordinary occur!
     
  2. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2016
    Hi Natalie,

    You could increase to 2.5 u soon, maybe at PM dose so you can get an evening test or two? A curve at this dose on the weekend would be good data.
     
    Natalie and Ziggy likes this.
  3. Natalie and Ziggy

    Natalie and Ziggy Member

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2018
    I gave him 2.25 U before I posted this thread, but I can definitely try 2.50 U tomorrow.

    I'll have to pick up some more test strips for the weekend, as I'm running out. Money is very tight for me at the moment. All the things I bought for Ziggy, plus his vet visit (which was inexpensive but I needed syringes) more or less wiped out my paycheck. But I can try to do a curve for sure.

    Just gave him a before-bed test. Very high numbers again. I'm a little discouraged after his numbers were so (relatively) good this past weekend, but nobody said it would be easy, right?
     
  4. Bellasmom

    Bellasmom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2018
    Takes a lot of patience and time!!!! I’ve learned that from here, gotta have patient pants on all the time, it will be easier and better as time slowly drags by, seems like forever but it does happen, your doing a great and job and so super proud of you for taking on this responsibility
     
  5. Natalie and Ziggy

    Natalie and Ziggy Member

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2018
    Woke up at 5:00 AM to the sound of Ziggy sneezing and, eventually, vomiting in the living room. He only vomited a tiny amount of a white substance that may have been his 2:00 AM snack. He vomited again at 6:00 AM, this time a clear yellow liquid in a very small amount. He seemed fine after that and is very eager for breakfast.

    Lots and lots of pee in his litter box!

    He used to vomit a lot when he was in my parents’ care. Like, everywhere and in huge amounts.

    I’m only feeding him half of his usual portion this morning, so as not to upset his tummy too much.
     
  6. Bellasmom

    Bellasmom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2018
    BG is still up so that's to be expected the excessive peeing, it wil get better as his BG gets lower
     
    Natalie and Ziggy likes this.
  7. Bellasmom

    Bellasmom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2018
    I want you to look at both of bellas spreadsheets, there is 2 of them, look back at feb and look at current, BIG difference and feb is when I found this sight, it might make you feel better as to whether it will get better or not, I followed exacted what people advised.
     
    Kris & Teasel likes this.
  8. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2016
    You'll get there. Give some thought to bumping him up to 2.5 u so you can get a curve at that dose on the weekend. The peeing should reduce when he's in lower numbers much of the time. The problem with staying high too long (among other things) is that they can get stuck there. They become less responsive to insulin because of the effects of glucose toxicity. The way through is regular, small dose increases to get to a dose that breaks through the toxicity. It's not unusual for the dose to drop after that.
     
    tiffmaxee likes this.
  9. Natalie and Ziggy

    Natalie and Ziggy Member

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2018
    @Bellasmom Looking at other spreadsheets has been calming for me, yes. And they can be pretty encouraging, too. :)

    I upped his dose to 2.5 tonight and took at test +3.5 hours after the PM shot. 248. That's on the lower end of Ziggy's usual range, though he's probably coming out of his nadir.
     
  10. Natalie and Ziggy

    Natalie and Ziggy Member

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2018
    More vomiting throughout the night. This time it was all food. I’m wondering if his automatic feeder giving him snacks at night has anything to do with it? He threw up an hour after both of the programmed feeding times. But he didn’t have a problem with this before, so I’m not really sure.

    Edit: I think it might have to do with his food. He doesn’t like the salmon and whitefish flavors very much, and he only started throwing up a couple days after he moved on to that food.
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2018
  11. Veronica & Babu-chiri

    Veronica & Babu-chiri Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2016
    You'll need to be very patient this is a marathon and is hard at the beginning but it will get better hang in there

    Usually giving them snacks helps avoiding stomach acid vomiting just liquid is usually a sign of stomach acid, but you could try and see if it has to do with one special flavor when he vomits more maybe is that particular type of food that is upsetting his stomach

    Are you testing for ketones already? If not as soon as you can you could buy some urine ketones testing strips at the pharmacy and while he's in high numbers it would be good to be monitoring him about them
     
  12. Natalie and Ziggy

    Natalie and Ziggy Member

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2018
    I'm not testing for ketones yet, but I will pick up some strips as soon as I am able.

    I came home to find vomit around the apartment and Ziggy had lost all of the weight he'd gained over the past week. His blood sugars are the highest I've seen yet. I think I'm going to slightly adjust his feeding: I'm moving his AM and PM shots an hour earlier, and giving him a meal right before I go to bed. That way, he won't have to go so long after I wake up (AM) or get home (PM) before his pre-shot test. Hopefully that'll reduce his hunger-related stress a little bit.
     
  13. Olive & Paula

    Olive & Paula Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2015
    Do you have the bowl raised a bit? Does he gorge when eating?
     
  14. Natalie and Ziggy

    Natalie and Ziggy Member

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2018
    He doesn’t really gorge, no.

    Had to run to the store to get the food he likes because he’s not touching anything else.
     
  15. Natalie and Ziggy

    Natalie and Ziggy Member

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2018
    Bought him some more of the Friskies he likes, but he’s barely touching it. Gave him his shot, but he doesn’t seem very happy with his food.

    What a rollercoaster! :nailbiting:

    Looks like he’s going to throw up. Uh oh!

    Edit: Okay, he didn’t, but he’s hiding under my bed now after turning his nose up at his new dinner. I feel so bad for him. It feels like we’re back to square one again.
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2018
  16. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2016
    Try one more dose of 2.5 u tonight and increase to 2.75 u tomorrow AM. His numbers are high and likely making him feel awful. Ketone testing is important at these high numbers. Would an auto feeder help so he can have more meals in a day and overnight?
     
  17. Natalie and Ziggy

    Natalie and Ziggy Member

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2018
    Oh no, I panicked and called the vet and they want me to bring Ziggy in for an examination right now.

    I can’t afford a big procedure or anything. I’m wondering if I should just take a deep breath and cancel it?

    The auto feeder has been working well, and he likes it, but right now all it’s doing is making him vomit more.

    @Kris & Teasel Do you mean give him a second shot tonight, after I already gave him one at his PM shot time? Edit: Oh wait, I see what you mean, I think. I forgot to update his spreadsheet -- I did give him a PM shot of 2.5 tonight.
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2018
    Kris & Teasel likes this.
  18. Natalie and Ziggy

    Natalie and Ziggy Member

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2018
    Ziggy made it through most of the night fine, but he vomited bile just as I was getting up. Hardly touched his food and didn’t want his insulin shot — he pulled away as I was injecting. I still had 2.25 U left in the syringe, so I shot the rest in after distracting him.
     
  19. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2016
    Seems that Ziggy might need some antinausea/antivomiting meds like Cerenia to get him feeling better. High numbers + dehydration from vomiting + possibly too low an insulin dose is a bad mixture. I strongly recommend urine ketone testing ASAP.
     
  20. Olive & Paula

    Olive & Paula Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2015
    Maybe try some baby food (no onions or garlic) to get him eating. You don't want an aversion to his normal food.
     
  21. Natalie and Ziggy

    Natalie and Ziggy Member

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2018
    Ziggy started to eat a little more as the morning went on. He wasn’t devouring it like he usually does, but it was encouraging. I wonder if he’s just pacing himself due to his upset tummy? Still, chances are I’ll come home to a lot of puke like last night. I wouldn’t be so upset if he wasn’t doing it on the rugs.

    Ironically, his litter box behavior has greatly improved. One problem solved, another pops up in its place. :nailbiting:

    I will pick up some ketone test strips tonight and try to get started this evening. And he was on anti-nausea medication when he lived with my parents (not sure what it was) but they forgot to bring it when they brought Ziggy to me.

    This might seem like a silly question, but do I have to see the vet about getting Cerenia? I assume that I do, but I’m almost broke for this month, and I don’t think I can afford a vet visit until June. :(

    I’ve started to mix a little water into Ziggy’s wet food. That seems to get him to eat more.

    I can try some baby food, sure.
     
  22. Olive & Paula

    Olive & Paula Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2015
    You have to get cerenia from the vet. Some plain pepcid a.c. original strength might work. 10 mg tabs give 1/4 tab. Give 2 hrs before or after food.

    Are you giving small meals or snacks spread out every couple of hours through day and night?
     
    Natalie and Ziggy likes this.
  23. Veronica & Babu-chiri

    Veronica & Babu-chiri Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2016
    You could try can give him some omeprazole 5mg (not sure what presentation you can get over there ) every 12 hours, wouldn't use it long term but I think is ok for a few days to help his tummy while you can get something better and a little bit more permanent.

    Something that I don't know how easily you can get but is not very expensive either and has worked very well with my civies is slippery elm bark
     
    Natalie and Ziggy likes this.
  24. Beth 73

    Beth 73 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2016
    Natalie, I’d check out slippery elm bark ( aka SEB).... I give Elmo 1/8 t mixed with a little water then gently syringed right before bed to keep his stomach settled overnight. Different members do it different ways but this is how it works for us . You can get it in capsule form at any Wal Mart so it’s handy and not expensive , is natural and it works . I take it for myself
     
  25. Natalie and Ziggy

    Natalie and Ziggy Member

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2018
    Thank you for the suggestions, everyone. Ziggy's stopped vomiting since my last post and his appetite is 100% back. I think the salmon and whitefish flavors of Friskies might have just made him sick for a few days. Hope I'm not jinxing it by saying it.

    I started using some U-40 syringes I got from the new vet, but I noticed that they dose up to 40 units (the previous set of syringes dosed up to 12 and were also labeled U-40). I was still able to give Ziggy his 2.75 U tonight, and I made absolutely sure I wasn't misreading the units so I wouldn't overdose him.

    I didn't get to do a curve today, but I can try to do one tomorrow. His numbers have been consistently high for the past few days.

    Oh, and I wasn't able to get any ketone strips for Ziggy. There aren't any available anywhere! I ordered some online.
     
  26. Natalie and Ziggy

    Natalie and Ziggy Member

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2018
    Got a full 12-hour curve yesterday on 2.75 U. The main thing I’ve noticed since his last curve is that his glucose levels are, on average, higher than they used to be. I am beginning to think that changing his food from Friskies Seafood to Friskies Poultry Favourites has something to do with it (though Poultry Favourites doesn’t seem to have much more carbs than the Seafood).

    Unlike the Seafood, he loves all four flavors of the Poultry, so no vomiting or loss of appetite!

    No ketone strips yet. :(
     
  27. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2016
    The poultry food shouldn't be a problem and if he likes it and eats it with no tummy issues I'd feed it. The curve gave you really good information:
    • his nadir is around +4 which is fairly typical of Vetsulin (+4 to +6)
    • he dropped only a bit more than 50% from PS to nadir which is in the ball park of what you want
    • he started rising again around +8 which is also typical of Vetsulin but he was still below AMPS at PMPS - possibly getting close to 12 hours duration
    • he needs a bump up in dose to 3 u either tonight or tomorrow AM - shouldn't drop him too low while you're at work but do get a before bed test every evening and plan on another curve next weekend.
    When judging BGs we tend to look closely at the most recent numbers, say, the last week or a bit longer. Anything further back is history because their response can change for any number of reasons.

    Re ketone strips: any human pharmacy should stock human urine ketone test strips - very common item. Bayer Ketostix is one brand. Ask the pharmacist. What they won't necessarily stock is blood ketone test strips for a blood ketone meter.
     
  28. Veronica & Babu-chiri

    Veronica & Babu-chiri Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2016
    Is very good that he's not vomiting so I also think you should stik the poultry food for now.

    Considering he's been on the actual treatment just for a few days I think he's looking good that curve you got looks pretty decent, the fact that you are seeing some yellows and no blacks is very good
     
    Kris & Teasel likes this.
  29. Natalie and Ziggy

    Natalie and Ziggy Member

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2018
    I’ve upped his dose to 3.0 U. :)

    Kitty really hates the new syringes I bought at the vet. They must be bigger or something, because now he reacts when I stick the needle in and squirms as I’m trying to give the shot. He’s even taking to backing up against the wall as he eats so I can’t get to him (have to bring the food bowl out to the center of the kitchen).
     
    Veronica & Babu-chiri likes this.
  30. Veronica & Babu-chiri

    Veronica & Babu-chiri Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2016
    What needle do they have?
     
  31. Natalie and Ziggy

    Natalie and Ziggy Member

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2018
    It’s the U-40, but it holds up to 40 units instead of 12. The gauge is 29 1/2. His old syringes were just 29.

    No stomach problems with kitty since changing his food! He’s peeing way more than he was, though, and he’s back to meowing at 4-5AM for food, even though he eats all the food in the automatic feeder. I feed him a full can at breakfast and dinner, but he’s always like “more, please!” I would, but money is so tight right now (I’m now broke and my parents are helping me) and I’m trying to make his food last while still making sure he’s fed.

    He’s finally cleaned off his paws and he’s got his old energy back. He’s chasing his toys around the house, which he hasn’t done in such a long time. The sheer amount of pee in his box means he’s tracking lots of litter around, though.

    And finally, blood testing is so easy now. I never thought we’d master it so quickly. Now if I could only teach Ziggy to stay still for his shots.

    Still trying to get a hold of ketone strips.
     
  32. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2016
    That means the syringe holds 1 mL of liquid and the marks will be very close together - makes it hard to see between them and I guarantee you'll want to be able to do that.

    Here's what you need: https://www.adwdiabetes.com/product/18570/bd-pet-syringes-u40-29g-3-10cc-1-2in-half-unit
    https://www.adwdiabetes.com/product/1640/bayer-ketostix-reagent-strips

    Many people order from this company successfully.
     
    Natalie and Ziggy likes this.
  33. Idjit's mom

    Idjit's mom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2018
    I have been watching your thread , Natalie. I have no expertise and very little experience, so no advice. I just want to say how amazing you are, how much you have learned and accomplished in such a short time. As Churchill used to say "Keep buggering on", this you are doing. So proud of you!
     
    Natalie and Ziggy likes this.
  34. Veronica & Babu-chiri

    Veronica & Babu-chiri Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2016
    Congratulations on getting the testing under control :):) you are really doing great, the fact that he's playing says a lot!!
     
    Natalie and Ziggy likes this.
  35. Natalie and Ziggy

    Natalie and Ziggy Member

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2018
    Thank you @Kris & Teasel for the links. I really don’t have a lot of money to spare until the end of the month, but I will order new syringes and ketone strips from there. Another problem I have with these syringes I have is that there’s always a small air bubble that I just can’t get rid of.

    Ziggy’s been doing great, but this morning was a headache. After his 4 AM snack he started meowing like crazy and wouldn’t stop for the next two hours. He wanted nothing to do with blood tests (got it anyway — 515, one of his highest numbers yet) and had tracked poop all over the living room. He devoured his food (1 full can) and got his insulin, though he squirmed like crazy. Now he’s begging for more breakfast.

    I think I’m going to have to give him a full can for the automatic feeder both day and night, instead of half. Right now his portions don’t seem to be enough.
     
  36. Veronica & Babu-chiri

    Veronica & Babu-chiri Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2016
    Hang in there he will slowly go back to his usual self and yes if you can let him have as much food as he wants for now
     
  37. Natalie and Ziggy

    Natalie and Ziggy Member

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2018
    I’d be happy to give him all the food he wants if it weren’t so expensive. But if that’s what he wants, that’s what he’ll get. He’ll get better eventually, I know — it just sucks to see a 500!

    Now he’s goofing off and playing with his toys. :p
     
  38. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2016
    That's a common problem. Do what you can to flick it out and then don't worry. A tiny air bubble at the dose volume you're drawing up shouldn't be an issue. :)

    Friskies is economical and you can probably find sales at Walmart, etc. He'll be ravenous until he's better regulated.

    Are you giving him a low carb treat with every test and shot? More if needed. One economical way to make treats is to roast or poach a plain chicken breast and cut it into very small pieces. Keep out a day's supply in the fridge as treats and freeze the rest.

    I do all my testing and injecting in the bathroom with door closed. My guy is very cooperative but it's better for me to have a small area he can't leave, all my stuff laid out at the ready, no distractions from my other two kitties, etc. The less restraint you can use the better - none is ideal.
     
  39. Natalie and Ziggy

    Natalie and Ziggy Member

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2018
    Ziggy’s PM pre-shot test number is 579. I’m starting to get really worried. His numbers are just climbing and climbing, even though his dose is increasing. I know it’s supposed to take time, but it sucks to see his numbers get worse and worse every day. :(

    Maybe his nadir is really low, though? I’ll do a curve on Sunday. No time to do one tomorrow.

    @Kris & Teasel Normally he’s very cooperative and just lays down in my room when it’s test time. It’s just that he’s so desperate for food in the morning that he has no patience for testing (he just meows like crazy and runs all over the house trying to wake us all up). I do give him a low carb treat after every test, though.
     
  40. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2016
    Try not to panic. Those blacks are ugly but won't kill him. You need to do a curve at the 3 u dose tomorrow or Sunday. It's impossible to assess the dose with no mid cycle data.

    Re hunger before pre shot in the AM: give him a teaspoon or two of his breakfast just before it's test time to take the edge off. It would take 15-20 minutes for that food to affect his AMPS so you have a little window to get a non food influenced test.
     
    Natalie and Ziggy likes this.
  41. Natalie and Ziggy

    Natalie and Ziggy Member

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2018
    Thank you, Kris! Ziggy’s doing great in all other respects (though his litterbox behavior has fallen off recently) so I’m not panicking just yet. I just hate to see those high numbers.

    I will try giving him a little breakfast before test time.

    Oh, I had another question, @Kris & Teasel. I currently have the automatic feeder set to give him 1/3 can of wet food at 4:00 AM/PM — it switches to an empty tray at 4:30 AM/PM. I test him at 6:40 AM/PM. Do you think that allows for enough time for the food to wear off so that it doesn’t affect his numbers?
     
  42. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2016
    Yes, that's enough time.
     
  43. Natalie and Ziggy

    Natalie and Ziggy Member

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2018
    I just took a pre-bed test (6 hours after his PM shot) and he's still up in the 500s... I'm wondering if maybe there's something about his syringes that I'm not catching?

    His previous syringes were the UltiCare VetRX U-40 syringes, which held up to 12 units. Right now he's using the Exel Comfort Point U-40 syringes, which hold up to 40. I'm wondering if 3 units measured in the UltiCare syringes equals 3 units measured in the Exel Comfort Point syringes? I know they're both U-40, but I don't know. I'm starting to worry that the 3 units I'm giving him isn't actually 3 units.

    Then again, he was in the 200's for his pre-bed shots on these new syringes. He only rocketed up to the 500s yesterday. Which was also when I got him new kitty litter (World's Best Cat Litter)... Maybe he's eating it!! I'll check to make sure tomorrow.
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2018
  44. Natalie and Ziggy

    Natalie and Ziggy Member

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2018
    Sorry for the double-post, but I just caught Ziggy munching on his kitty litter. That's got to be a factor in his high levels lately! :nailbiting:

    Going to buy some new litter first thing in the morning!
     
  45. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2016
    A unit is a unit on any proper insulin syringe. (important thing to know! :)) What can differ from one type to another is the total capacity/volume of liquid the syringe holds and that can affect the spacing between the marks. The Ulticare Vet Rx syringes hold a total volume of 0.3 cc (3/10 cc = 0.3 cc =0.3 mL) which is a little less than what the Excel Comforts hold (1/2 cc = 0.5 cc = 0.5 mL). Cats usually need tiny insulin doses so it's best to have syringes that hold a smaller volume (0.3 cc). That way the marks on the barrel will usually be a little further apart making it easier for you to read them. Half unit marks are really good to have because they make fractional doses so much easier to measure out or eyeball in between as needed. For now, you can use the Excel syringes but I suggest you try to get others with 0.3 cc capacity and half unit marks when you can afford them.

    Try hard to get a test or two today between +4 and +6. you need to know how low he goes at this dose in the daytime. If that test gives you a high BG, I suggest a dose increase this weekend (if you can be around to keep an eye on him). You can try a 0.5 u increase instead of the usual 0.25 u increase because his numbers are high.

    Eating non-food things is called "pica" and can be related to a dietary deficiency or some other health issue.
     
    Natalie and Ziggy likes this.
  46. Natalie and Ziggy

    Natalie and Ziggy Member

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2018
    Thank you for the information about the syringes, @Kris & Teasel !

    Ziggy's +4 test was 212, which is among his lower numbers, and his +6 1/2 was 380. I don't think I want to increase his dose by .5u because that's not bad for him. Maybe I can try 0.25 u?
     
  47. PussCatPrince - GA

    PussCatPrince - GA Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2017
    You're doing great. :bighug:
     
    Natalie and Ziggy likes this.
  48. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2016
    That's just fine. :)
     
    Natalie and Ziggy likes this.
  49. Natalie and Ziggy

    Natalie and Ziggy Member

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2018
    This weekend's curve is done. :)

    I ultimately ended up going with the 3.5 u dose. There didn't seem to be much of a change in his levels to start out with, but the last test I took +4 after his PM shot showed him with a 178 nadir. I think I might reduce the dose to 3.25 u, just to be safe? He whined and squirmed when I gave him his shot -- he really doesn't like these needles.

    Kitty's developed a little bit of cement paws again! My landlord understands that Ziggy makes a bit of a mess with his litter, though. I still do my best to clean up after him.
     
  50. Veronica & Babu-chiri

    Veronica & Babu-chiri Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2016
    Hi congratulations on your curve during the weekend, his numbers are starting to look slightly better, I don't know much about vetsulin hopefully some of the vetsulin experts will take a look at your results soon but actually that 178 doesn't look bad actually is a very nice number your first blue that is good news.

    The whole litter problem does get better so hang in there when you can maybe you could get one of those litter rugs they help a little
     
  51. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2016
    That's a nice bit of blue on your SS! :cool: There's plenty of room for him to drop safely. I suggest you do to 3.75 u tomorrow AM and get a before bed test on that dose tomorrow night. You don't want him to stay in high numbers any longer than necessary. He can get stuck there and it can be harder to get him down. Also, he'll feel better in lower numbers and it should help with the cement paws eventually.
     
  52. Natalie and Ziggy

    Natalie and Ziggy Member

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2018
    193 for the pre-bed shot! So happy to see that blue. :cat:

    I bought some honey just in case Ziggy suffers from hypoglycemia at some point down the line (crossing my fingers that it doesn't come to that). Hope my ketone strips will come in soon, too.
     
  53. Chris & China

    Chris & China Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 10, 2013
    China had a big problem with cement paws too. So far, the best litter's I've found were Fresh Step Clean Paws and Okocat
     
  54. Veronica & Babu-chiri

    Veronica & Babu-chiri Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2016
    Nice blue!
     
  55. Natalie and Ziggy

    Natalie and Ziggy Member

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2018
    592 this morning... What in the world could have caused a spike like that? He was going insane for food when I woke up.
     
  56. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2016
    It could be a bounce from going lower after the blue last night. It might also have been a faulty test strip. I’d ignore it and bump him up to 4 u this AM. :)
     
  57. Natalie and Ziggy

    Natalie and Ziggy Member

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2018
    Oh shoot, I only gave him 3.75 this morning! I can give him 4 tonight.
     
    Veronica & Babu-chiri likes this.
  58. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2016
    That’s fine.
     
    Veronica & Babu-chiri likes this.
  59. Natalie and Ziggy

    Natalie and Ziggy Member

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2018
    Bumped Ziggy up to 4 last night. Good pre-bed numbers but those black spots on his AM/PM tests are awful to look at. :banghead:

    Every time I open up his feeder, I find that he missed his 4am/pm snack. No wonder he wakes me up at 5am lately begging for food. If only he’d look in the kitchen! :p
     
  60. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2016
    That drop to blue last night from a high PMPS is probably the cause. Try to get a curve in this weekend at the 4 u dose. :) How is he feeling overall?
     
  61. Natalie and Ziggy

    Natalie and Ziggy Member

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2018
    He’s been doing pretty well! He’s got his old goofy energy back and loves playing with his toys. He pees a lot, but that’s to be expected. His appetite is a little bit low lately — he’ll beg for food, eat about half of his dinner, then graze on the rest for the next couple of hours.

    He’s been a little tough to test these past few days, since he wants to play with the glucometer and lancing device. He also wants to play with the syringes!
     
    Kris & Teasel likes this.
  62. Idjit's mom

    Idjit's mom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2018
    What a difference in Ziggy! Wanting to play with toys, the meter and all. You have done so much and he's better for it. It might seem 2 steps forward, 1 step back right now, but he's better and you did that.
     
    Natalie and Ziggy and Bellasmom like this.
  63. Natalie and Ziggy

    Natalie and Ziggy Member

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2018
    Ouch! Ziggy tried to bite me while I was giving him his shot this morning. :nailbiting:

    As soon as the needle goes in, he tenses up and starts squirming, and usually starts meowing in pain. This time he looked back and lunged at my hand with bared fangs. It’s definitely getting a lot harder each time.
     
  64. Beth 73

    Beth 73 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2016
    Natalie, when insulin time came , I would give Elmo his most coveted treat, baby food meat, while I gave him his shot to distract him . Just a thought :bighug:❤️ That and early on we shaved a spot on each side so I was sure to be hitting just skin and not muscle . Just another thot ❤️;)
     
    Last edited: May 27, 2018
  65. Beck

    Beck Member

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2018
    Ouch, do you think you're getting just under the skin or are you possibly hitting the muscle tissue? I have a really hard time with Pepper when she tenses up, which increases the chance of hitting muscle.

    I'm not familiar with Vetsulin, but it also could be you're on a high enough dose for it to sting. : /
     
    Natalie and Ziggy likes this.
  66. Veronica & Babu-chiri

    Veronica & Babu-chiri Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2016
    All this started when you changed syringes isn't it could it be you got a bad lot and they're not sharp enough maybe change syringe brand
     
    Natalie and Ziggy likes this.
  67. Olive & Paula

    Olive & Paula Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2015
    Here's a thought, since your at 4 units now, the insulin itself could be stinging him. A lot of people report the problem. It bother Smokey at 5 units.
     
    Natalie and Ziggy likes this.
  68. Natalie and Ziggy

    Natalie and Ziggy Member

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2018
    I think it might be the dose, yes. The needle, too, but he tends to react most after I’ve injected.

    He tried to bite me as I was injecting his PM dose, but I pulled it out just in time! He’s going to get me eventually, though. He’s really wary of shots now and doesn’t get distracted by the food when it’s time for his dose. Once I start touching him, he stops and waits, then lunges for my hand once I inject. His teeth are bad, so I’m worried about getting an infection.

    At least he’s patient with testing. :)

    Anyway. It’s payday tomorrow, and Ziggy needs a new vial of insulin soon!
     
  69. Bellasmom

    Bellasmom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2018
    Your doing a great job and I’m super proud you :bighug:
     
    Natalie and Ziggy likes this.
  70. Natalie and Ziggy

    Natalie and Ziggy Member

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2018
    One thing I’m wondering is when do I know to reduce Ziggy’s dose from 4u? His number this morning is 312, which is very good for him. I’m a little worried about giving him his usual dose with that number.
     
  71. Bellasmom

    Bellasmom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2018
    This is what I found on here about vetsuli
    • If your cat’s BG is a bit below 200 mg/dL [11 mmol/L] on a human meter, consider ‘stalling’.
    • Stalling is waiting - without feeding your cat - for 20+minutes, then retesting to see if the BG has risen to a suitable level.
    • If using a pet meter, such as Alphatrak2, you may want to raise number above 200 mg/dL. (If in doubt seek advice from your vet.)
    • You are looking for a number that is rising, not falling, and is high enough to give insulin.
    • Note: As you gain experience with home testing, and have gathered data to show how your cat responds to insulin, you might consider it safe to reduce the ‘no shoot’ threshold, and to give insulin at lower pre-shot numbers.
     
  72. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2016
    You’d think about reducing if his nadir number is lower than about 90 - 100. The pre shot number is mostly used to decide if it’s safe to give insulin. If it’s under 200 or so you might be considering a reduction if you don’t have enough data to go on. The nadirs are really important in assessing a dose so that’s why we keep mentioning middle of cycle tests and extra testing on days off.

    I’d actually recommend bumping him up to 4,24 u today and doing a curve this weekend.
     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2018
  73. Natalie and Ziggy

    Natalie and Ziggy Member

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2018
    Thank you for the tips! I've bumped Ziggy up to 4.25U. Just finished giving him his shot and narrowly avoided getting bit (he did me-yowl and swipe at me though).

    Even though he attacks as soon as the needle goes in, there have been no fur shots and he gets all of the insulin. I have no time to check to see if the needle has gone in properly anymore before he's fighting back. He does let me pet him afterward to check for fur shots, though.

    What he does now is he takes a mouthful of food and drops it on the floor nearby so he can keep an eye on me when it's shot time. He doesn't trust me at all anymore. I don't think I'll be able to train my roommates to give him shots when I'm on vacation, sadly.

    I told my parents about this and they suggested euthanizing him. Ummm, I don't think so.
     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2018
  74. Natalie and Ziggy

    Natalie and Ziggy Member

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2018
    I'm disappointed with Ziggy's curve so far today. It almost looks like the shot didn't make it all the way in? There was no smell of insulin and no trace of moisture in his fur or on the floor, and I made absolutely sure it wasn't a fur shot...

    I realized what I was doing wrong with his shots and began giving him his injections from a slightly downward angle, which is what I used to do. But since I started doing that, his numbers haven't gone down as much as they did. Maybe I'm just overthinking things!

    EDIT: I wonder if maybe his Vetsulin is no longer as potent as it was? I've been using the same vial for almost three months now, but I just received a new one.
     
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2018
  75. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2016
    I think it was the steep drop to +2 that cause him to bounce back up into red in the second half of the cycle. It looks like your insulin is still working. The curve data suggest that another dose increase to 4.5 u is in the cards sooner rather than later.
     
    Natalie and Ziggy likes this.
  76. Natalie and Ziggy

    Natalie and Ziggy Member

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2018
    I'll bump him up to 4.5U in the morning, I think.

    444 for his +4 PM shot! I don't understand, he's normally in the low 200s or high 100s at this point of night. It must have been a fur shot, but I checked and there was no wetness and I'm 100% sure it went in! I'm absolutely positive I did it right. Unless he dropped down so low at +2 that he instantly rebounded?

    I went back to my old technique of injection, in which I tended his skin and shot at a downward angle, which he seems to not mind. Lately I've been tenting his skin and shooting from the side, which has just been making him mad. But I think going back to the old technique must be screwing things up, because his +4 numbers should not be this high. I'm so disappointed. His numbers just seem to be getting worse and worse, even as his behavior improves and he gains more weight.
     
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2018
  77. Natalie and Ziggy

    Natalie and Ziggy Member

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2018
    So, um, Ziggy attacked me when I gave him his shot just now.

    No signs of a fur shot or anything, but as soon as I stuck the needle in, he hissed loudly and spun around and leapt at me with his claws out. Thankfully I got the syringe out before he turned, so he didn't get hurt. I did extra research today to make sure I wouldn't cause him pain when giving the shot, but clearly it didn't work. It's at the point where I have a millisecond to inject him before he's attacking. He's been hissing during every shot lately, but this is the first time he's reacted so violently.

    He's improving in nearly every other regard.

    EDIT: And now he's a big, friendly ball of purring fur <3. I've ordered the smaller needles!
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2018
  78. Idjit's mom

    Idjit's mom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2018
    I hope different needles make a difference, him attacking is not good.
     
  79. Natalie and Ziggy

    Natalie and Ziggy Member

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2018
    I gave him the leftover can along with his second serving this time. He always digs his face into the cans and just loves them. I gave him his shot while he was licking it and he didn’t even flinch! I think I’m going to try doing that from now on. :p

    (Knock on wood, hope I’m not jinxing myself!)
     
    Veronica & Babu-chiri likes this.
  80. Idjit's mom

    Idjit's mom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2018
    I always shot Idjit while he was eating, he never seemed to notice. I hope this works for you.
     
  81. Natalie and Ziggy

    Natalie and Ziggy Member

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2018
    The problem was that he caught on to what I was doing while he was eating, so he started to feel the shots more. When he’s licking the empty can, he doesn’t notice at all, although he did look back at me when I injected him this morning.

    Fur shot today — so frustrating! I didn’t have time to check if the needle had gone through, because he looked ready to bite (it did go through; his underside was totally wet afterward). Coupled with extremely high numbers yesterday, it’s been an exhausting week.
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2018
  82. Veronica & Babu-chiri

    Veronica & Babu-chiri Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2016
    Hang in there! It takes time but you'll get it under control
     
    Natalie and Ziggy likes this.
  83. Natalie and Ziggy

    Natalie and Ziggy Member

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2018
    Ziggy's already caught on to the can trick, and now he's hissing at me before I can even try to inject. Hope those new needles come in soon! At least there was no fur shot this time (as far as I could tell).
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2018
  84. Idjit's mom

    Idjit's mom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2018
    I hope the new needles work for you, Natalie. You are doing everything you can to help Ziggy. Get some rest when you can. :bighug:
     
    Natalie and Ziggy likes this.
  85. Natalie and Ziggy

    Natalie and Ziggy Member

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2018
    Thank you, Idjit's mom, and everyone for your support.

    Just want to update with some good news: Ziggy's PM +4 test reads 149, which is his lowest number ever! I know that's just a nadir, or a near-nadir, but I threw him a little five-minute party anyway to celebrate. :cat:

    [​IMG]

    I will start a new thread the next time I post.
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2018
  86. Veronica & Babu-chiri

    Veronica & Babu-chiri Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2016
    Very nice number!!!

    It sometimes happens when they start getting low numbers that they feel a little bit under the weather is like their body has to get used to function without the tons of glucose in it
     

Share This Page