Hello! I finally updated my chart for Murphy. A few notes: He was on Lantus until 11/5/18- from that date forward he's on Prozinc. ALSO, until this point, I was feeding him Purina DM. I had both wet and dry food in that brand. He was free feeding with the dry, and I was feeding wet when I dosed him. It was not until my second vet pointed out that I need to be sure to AVOID free feeding and stick to wet food that I stopped that. So, some of the higher numbers before 11/5/18 were probably due to the fact he was eating throughout the day. Now, because I have another cat to feed and the Purina DM is $55/case for cans that last about a week in my house, I have switched both of my cats to Friskies Classic Pate foods. I have followed the food recommendation chart(s) referred to here and by my vet for good diabetes food options. I DO switch up the flavors, but am sure to stick with the same type of food to keep the levels from jumping around. I have been tracking his numbers longer than October, but this gives a good snapshot. My vet recommended that I not test too much when we know he's in a good range, so I had stopped the BG monitoring for a while. That's why I have odd lapses in dates. During the time indicated in my signature chart, I have had 2 curves done at the vet, and we have changed his dose both times. I do not have the exact date for the most recent one, but it was during the lapse in time earlier this month (Dec) ALSO: In a different post, I have noted that I have had 2 blood panels run this year (one in May and one in October) from 2 different vets to see if there's another underlying factor to Murphy's problems. They both said they did not see any health issues other than the diabetes. I am so discouraged that I have not been able to get my boy stable. His neuropathy is much worse. He's eating less (also not drinking water when his BG is elevated...not sure if that is normal), and is more lethargic. This message board is such a great place! It is nice to not feel so alone and have others give advice/comfort when they know what I am going through. Thank you!!!!!!!!!
It would be very helpful to us if you set up your signature. Here's how: click on your name in the upper right corner of this page click on "signature" in the men that drops down type the following in the box that opens: kitty's name/age/date of diabetes diagnosis/insulin you're using /glucose meter you're using/what he eats/any other meds or health issues he has. Neuropathy usually responds well to methylcobalamin supplementation (Zobaline is a popular one that can be ordered online) and better control of BG numbers. It can take time for improvements to be seen. We can help you with the latter.
Not testing before giving insulin EVERY single time is very dangerous (and most vets will tell you not to test every time. ) There has been MANY times during the years that if I had not tested... I would have killed my cat. Im sorry to be so forward, but its very important. Its great that you have switched to canned pate, ALL dry food is higher in carbs. Since you have switched, its even more important to test before any insulin is giving. one of my cats had neuropathy & it went away using Zobaline, and switching to pate food, found out he had diabetes w neuropathy in Oct. STOPPED listening to my vet and followed the advice of everyone here and he was in full remission by Dec
Thanks everyone! I have updated his chart. His neuropathy is significantly worse. He can't take more than 2-3 steps without stopping. I'm having to put him in the litter box. I know he needs to exercise his legs, but he just sits there. It is breaking my heart. I am doing Zobaline twice a day. It is not getting any better (have been using it for 3+weeks). His eyes are sunken and he is extremely lethargic. With that and the neuropathy, I am starting to mentally prepare for the worst. I do not want him suffering. I tested his ketones for the first time (home testing...vet has tested before) and it showed "trace," which was a relief. I was sure it would be high. He's not eating much, and is drinking water only now and then when I put it in front of him.
Help! I just came home and his white eyelid is showing in both eyes. I noticed it a bit yesterday, but thought he was just tired. I am going to the vet this afternoon.... Any ideas of what is causing this?
That third eyelid usually means they're feeling sick. All the symptoms you describe (lethargy, neuropathic gait) are likely from being in high BG numbers for a long time. I hope your vet can help. What he needs is enough insulin to get his numbers down first and foremost and a B12 supplement second. He's still a young cat and should have the reserves to recover. Is he eating? THat's very important.
He's eating a little. I give him the Zobaline in a Friskies Chicken treat, it is 100% flaked chicken. He gobbles it up. He eats a little of his Friskies Classic Pate food- not much, but enough that I feel comfortable giving his dose. I may mix some of the chicken in with his pate for his next dose, along with some water. I've been home with him today. Sitting in the floor and putting water in front of him. He drinks a little at a time when I do that. Seems to have his eyes looking a little better- at least for now. About to get 6 hour post dose BG in about an hour, and will have a better picture of what his levels are. I can't thank you guys enough for the support. It is such an emotional roller coaster. One minute, I am thinking I am losing him and preparing to say goodbye. The next, he seems to be feeling better and I hold out hope that I can get him to a good place. Whew! :-/
Dehydration can cause the "sunken eyes" look. Does his scruff skin rebound quickly when you pull it up? It's slow if dehydrated. Do his gums feel tacky? They do if dehydrated. Your vet might want to give IV fluids and if subQ fluids at home are prescribed it's easier than you think.
Hey there....just got a 162 pre-dose. Was planning on gugivi 3 units, but wondering if I should do 2.5? Don't want to go too low. He's in a good range right now. About to give zobaline and dinner with shot....advice on dose????? Thanks!!
I wouldn't give the full 3 u on a 162 because you don't have enough data to know how he might respond. You could wait about 30 minutes without feeding and test again to see if he's around the same or rising. That can be a guide to dosing. If you can't wait or have fed him, try 2.5 u but make sure you get a +2 test this evening. That can help in predicting what might happen.
REVISION! That was a 162 on an AT meter. I'd drop the dose to 2 u. Please add "AlphaTrak meter" to your grey signature text. We look for that there. I found out from looking at the heading on your SS.
I did not take him because his eyes started to clear up as he drank more water. Then, he got a good BG number. My vet is on standby and luckily I can be with Murph a good bit over the next few days and watch him closely. If his eyes are not better or or back to where they were in the morning I'm going to take him in. I can't tell you what a relief it is to have you guys helping
Thank you. I will give him 2 and and see what happens. That is why my chart is so wacky. Trying to keep from giving him too much.
The 2 u dose is likely safe but there's more guesswork until you build up your SS data base. We rely very heavily on the trends and patterns we see there to be able to give good advice. Without that it's more of a shot in the dark.
Thanks so much. I'd expect that he'd have been ok on 2.5, because he had a good dinner, but I stuck with 2 to be safe. I'll check in 2 hours and again before am dose. Thanks again for the help....and quick response. Love the low BG numbers, but want to keep him in a good range. Gonna stick to this thread still learning the site
Ok. Just tested him after the 2 units I gave him with food 2 hours ago. He's at 304. I feel discouraged, but am hoping that's not so bad b/c he ate?? Obviously, I'll test him first thing in the am. Poor boy is laying in the litter box right now. This is breaking my heart. He can hardly walk anymore. Thanks again for the help
The 304 could be a food spike and/or a rebound from lower blues. Try not to worry. This will take time. You could try 2.5 u AM and PM for a few days to see how that works.
Thanks. If you look at the last week and a half on his SS, he's responded positively when he's gotten a 3 unit dose after high BG numbers. That's why I have gone back and forth between 2.5 and 3 in the morning. Wondering if he's more likely to maintain with 3 units twice a day. He was doing so well with 2.5 for a while that I stopped testing him. I could tell he was not feeling well after a while & I checked him. That's the 12/22/18 date shown. Called the vet & they recommended that I try 3 units. I'm certainly going to be careful and watch closely. May go with 3 in the am if he's really high & just try to test every few hours.
No, all friskies pate for food. I use the fancy feast pure chicken treats, just a bite, to give his Zobaline. (Example here... https://www.chewy.com/fancy-feast-purely-natural-hand/dp/130369?utm_source=google-product&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=f&utm_content=Fancy Feast&utm_term=&gclid=Cj0KCQiAjZLhBRCAARIsAFHWpbGxVaweA3c0PKcUoXKHUS3-xEu3STbZeD4-6HJBBr72y1UtHCshSUQaAlqbEALw_wcB) I'm very careful to avoid carbs. Studied the charts and recommendations on this site. He's becoming less interested in the friskies pates, so I may have to get creative in the near future. I WAS doing Purina wet DM, but I have 2 cats and that is just too expensive for me feeding 2 at $56/case!
The pre shot BG tests are basically to tell you if it’s safe to give the planned dose. It’s the low numbers in the middle of the cycle that are much more important in making dose decisions. Pre shot numbers are given more consideration if they’re lower than normal. Then, you *might* lower the dose in response to a PS. The dose is rarely raised in response to a high pre shot BG. It would be raised if there was a trend over a few days at a dose of BG not dropping below the mid 100s or so.
Good morning! I just tested him, and he's at 454. Planning to give him 3 units with meal. Do you agree with that? His eyes look MUCH better this morning and he's moving around better. Fingers crossed that I'm moving closer...
Thanks...yes...Hmm...just re-read the post. I'll do 2.5, and see what the day looks like. His numbers were so good yesterday after his higher dose. It is hard to not want to do that again. Although, that caused me to have to drop his PM dose. I've been doing 2.5 twice a day for the lapse in his chart. Then, when he started feeling bad and having bad numbers, I changed it, and he responded well. I'll go back to 2.5 and watch closely. Like I said, my vet told me to do a curve every now and then with them and not check him every day. He was stable, so I stopped monitoring. Maybe he was doing better than I thought and just had a few bad days??? ARG!
It's REALLY tempting to want to chase good numbers with frequent dose changes but it can backfire. It contributes to greater volatility in bouncy cats and can prevent you from seeing the "true" effect of a dose because things are obscured by the ups and downs. So much patience is needed in the FD game. It takes most of us a very long time to get that. Try hard to quell your itchy trigger finger and stay at 2.5 u today and tomorrow. Get at least one test in the +4 to +7 time period and/or a before bed test both days. Get more if possible. A scattering of tests over many days is far more useful in seeing what his responses are than a curve done on one day. A useful analogy is that of a jigsaw puzzle: if you place many pieces over many areas of the puzzle (scattered BG tests over several days) you come to see the image better than if you just work along one edge (a curve done on a given day every week or two).
Thank you again! One of the things that you told me that stands out the most is the information about the pre dose BG. His seems to always be fairly High first thing in the morning and I freak out. I will start paying more attention to numbers throughout the day as indicators. I have been assuming that since he has been asleep and has not eaten yet, that first reading in the morning is a precise indicator of where his levels are.
Ok...just tested at about 6 post dose. He's at 432 :-( I'm disappointed. Thoughts??? He's just been sleeping all day...no eating or anything.
Sorry. I'm so stressed I am not making sense. It was 6 hours/ 15 minutes. I was looking at the time when I was typing. updated the post, too
Deep breaths. Let’s see what tonight brings. It’s often said around here that this is a marathon, not a sprint.
I know in humans that when they have high BG that walking can help bring it down. So when you say “ he has been sleeping but his numbers go up “. ( not your exact words) I’m hoping that telling you this will help you understand that less activity doesn’t necessarily mean that the numbers should be lower. I completely understand your frustration . I still get frustrated and freak out when skittles has high numbers and I been dealing w this for years. Skittles is my second diabetic cat.
Just tested pre-dose. 452 Not a good day in my opinion. Will do 2.5 again to see how it looks, but he seems to respond positively after a 3 unit dose??? Will keep up the 2.5 for a few days and will not change without your help/advice....trying to stay patient :-/ Thanks to listening to and understanding my frustration. Been doing this since May. My boy has been 300+ since May. Tired of seeing these numbers. I know I'm learning more as I go along, and am thankful to have found you guys... :-(
Give him 2.5 u tonight and tomorrow AM then increase to 2.75 u (eyeballed) tomorrow night numbers permitting. Changing dose after three cycles is as quickly as we'd recommend. Get a before bed test tonight if you can. Those reds are very likely rebound from the lower blues yesterday. Patience is key.
my baby rebounds very badly, it stopped when I LOWERED his dose.... just like you are doing right now from the higher dose he was on before you lowered to 2.5 I know you are stressed and scared, but following the advice I received here I got 2 cats into remission
Thanks so much. Going to bed teary eyed at 400. So ready for a healthy boy. He's actually seemed in better spirits today, though....thankful for that. I KNOW he'll have high numbers in the morning. I'll see...and plan 2.5 regardless...but want him out of "renal phase" as my vet put it...under 300... It's not been a good day as far as that goes...I feel like his "better mood" is from yesterday's good numbers??? Again...thanks for listening...I feel like I am venting...and thankful for having people who understand my frustration. Check in tomorrow am...good night to y'all and your furry babies <3
We all understand. I suggest 2.5 u this AM and go to 2.75 u this evening or tomorrow morning if you prefer to change dose in the AM. Don't jump to 3 u - it could be too much. We just don't know yet. Unless a kitty's doses are in the 5+ u range we recommend 0.25 u changes.
Good morning! His am BG pre-dose was 333. Not as bad as I'd expected. He slept with me all night and seemed to be feeling ok when we woke up. He's downstairs pigging out, which is good, b/c he's not been eating as much as I'd like in the mornings. I am going to go get more of the food he is favoring. Have learned that neither of my boys like the turkey & giblets classic pate :-/ I am going on vacation on the 4th for 5 days, and am already anxious about it. I DO have a sitter for Murphy. She will stay at my house and give him his Rx, food, etc. As you all can tell...I am a super-stresser when it comes to my feline fellas. Saying lots of prayers that he is stable and in a good place before I leave, so that he's happy and I can enjoy my vacation. One day at a time, right? I'm going to try not to worry about next week until it gets here....maybe we'll have balance with Murph by then. Stay tuned!! Hope you all have a gret day.
It's TOUGH to have a diabetic cat, Leigh! We all get that. You worry and worry about them and you have to figure out how to help them when they can't talk and tell you anything, which makes it harder. We've been there and you're totally welcome to vent anytime you need! Here's a little something that someone wrote a long time ago that might help you feel better: Dear Mom . I read it every now and then myself still.
Yes! I am going to check again before another shot...will try to get one again in a few hours. I would love your advice when the time comes ... whether to go to 2.75 in the pm. Will update on my next check(s)...
Hey there- What do you think I should do with a 307 pre-dose? He's eating now. Should I do 2.5 or 2.75?
376 at 5 1/2 hours post dose. His mood is still good... REALLY hoping to get his BG stable, so that, HOPEFULLY this Zobaline will kick in. Hope to see my boy walk normally one day...fingers crossed...
Keep up the methodical dose increases. You'll get there. You could bump him up to 3 u on Tuesday AM. Tomorrow PM would be OK too.
He was at 297 at 9 1/2 hours post dose. At 161 PM Pre-dose. 3 hours later at 124. Late night of baking cakes...going to bed...will update in the morning, but will not make any changes with these numbers...not without getting your advice! Thanks for your time, attention, and compassion....sometimes I feel nuts!
You're getting to a breakthrough point I think. Let's see where he is this AM. I understand why you dropped the dose last night. Looks like he was "clearing the bounce" in FDMB jargon. They can bobble up and down a bit as you approach the good dose range. How long has he been on Zobaline now? It can take a long time for neuropathy to improve but getting better BG regulation is very important along with B12.
Hey there! He's MUCH better again this morning. His AMPD was 194! I did 2.5 with his breakfast. Is that too much? He's walking better this morning, too. Hoping the Zobaline is kicking in with the better BG. I hope I did not mess up by giving him 2.5 this morning. When do I need to back off of a dose? If his pre-dose number is in a certain range, do I need to decrease it or skip it? Sorry for all of the questions. I am not used to working with the lower numbers!!
I think 2.5 u was fine. I'm so glad he's doing better! The PSs are mainly to know if a planned dose is safe to give. At the start people might have 200 (or close to that) as the "no shot" number - usually a bit higher on the AT meter. As the data base builds and you try a full dose on lower PSs you learn where the boundaries are. It's the lows near middle cycle that are used to make dose effectiveness assessments. If a PS is at or near your current "no shot" boundary you can: skip the shot (least desirable) don't feed, wait about 30 minutes, retest and if BG is rising give the full dose give a reduced dose - how much to reduce is a guessing game.
Thanks! I'll let you know what his mid-cycle number is...Planning to try to go home to test him at about 5-5.5 hour post dose time...
My vet told me (in the beginning) to not give a shot under 250. That's why I was a little worried I'd overdone it this morning. I'll see where he is in an hour or 2. I guess if he's too low, I'll feed him.
That's likely because you're using an AT meter that reads higher than the human meters most of us use. We'd probably recommend 250 as well to someone just starting out. Eventually, though, you have to push that envelope to avoid too many "no shots".
We're at 211 at 5 hours post-dose! Hope this means we're finding his sweet spot! Will do another check before PM dose. I'll keep updating~ Thanks for all of the help!!!
He's staying relatively flat - 194 and 211 are within meter variance of each other. Still, very nice progress. I think he'd be able to tolerate 2.75 u but we'll see what his PMPS is. I might not be around though. I'm in EST zone and it seems you're not (?).
283. You think I'm safe with 2.75? My concern is that I did 2.75 AM yesterday, and 2.5 PM. This am, I did 2.5, and may need 2.75 PM. is this erratic? He's still seeming better, and even tried to jump up on the couch (his leg strength needs to catch up to his will , but we're getting closer) Feeding him his Zobaline and dinner now...will check back to get your thoughts on dose before his shot....
I think you're safe with 2.75 u. Your goal is dark green at nadir so you have to take a chance sometime. Get a +2 this evening to see where he's headed.
Excellent! I'm glad you tried 2.75 u again. It can be nail biting time when they start having better numbers but you'll get there. Happy New Year! Keep up the dose increases as needed and the Zobaline and Murphy will be a new kitty. Some of them are much more susceptible to neuropathy as BG increases than others. @Djamila's kitty, Sam, is one of them.
I am aware that I should know this, but I have yet to get this close....Do I need to try to get/stay in the blue range or green? I know that non-diabetic cats stay in the green, but I thought it could be dangerous to try to get the diabetic ones there, in case they have a dip? I am so glad to be seeing yellow and blue, and will continue to adjust his dose, but wondering what the "ultimate" number? I'm planning to go 2.75 tonight, depending on the +6 number today. Again, wondering how low to aim on the BG number.
The goal is to have nadirs consistently in the high dark greens or low blues over time. The PSs can be variably high and tend to come down over time if the middle cycle numbers stay in that good range. It's not true for all kitties - like mine! Focus on the middle cycle numbers to assess the dose. Use the PSs only to know if a planned dose is safe to give and work at shooting a full dose on lower PSs as confidence and data build up.
I did 2.5 this morning, and he's at 112 PMPD. Going to do 2.5 again, to be safe....I'll check back in tomorrow!!
That's a lower PS than you've dosed on previously. I'd stall without feeding for about 30 minutes and retest. If he's rising, try 2.5 u. If not you could stall another 30 minutes and retest. If you can't stall, I'd lower the dose to no more than 2.25 u or even 2 u.
Just gave him 2.5. I'll test him again in a few hours. Wish I'd seen your post. I'll watch him closely.
That +2 is a good predictor quite often. Over time you’ll get more comfortable making dosing decisions as well as giving a full dose on lower PSs.
143 at 2+ He had a big dinner, so maybe that is a factor?? I expected it to be lower. We're watching football, and I'll do one more before bed if I'm up much longer.
My husband and I are going out of town tomorrow afternoon, and will not be back until late Tuesday, the 8th. My mom is going to house sit and take care of our animals. I feel 100% comfortable with her tending to Murphy with his shots and routine. I'd like to get your thoughts on dosing. Do you think it is safe to have her just do 2.5 doses twice a day? I feel like it gets complicated trying to have someone else do the glucose testing. I was planning to show her how to do it, in the event he starts acting differently, but it took me a while to get comfortable doing it myself. I am going to be talking with her each day to check on him, so I can walk her through it if it gets to that point, but I feel like it takes time and practice to get used to doing it, etc. I thought I'd ask your advice, based on his chart over the last few days. I have a few 2.75 doses sprinkled in, but the other day he was in low numbers with just 2.5. I don't want to risk a higher dose without BG testing. I am going to test him as usual tomorrow, but will not be home to dose and test him PM. I know that, ultimately, it is best to test him several times a day each day. However, I'm already struggling with the balance of taking care of Murphy and continuing life as usual. I do not want to stop doing things that are important to me and my family- I know there's a healthy balance. Murphy needs me and he needs extra TLC, and I am blessed to have people who will help me take care of him. Thank you~
If your mom isn't quite up to testing yet, I definitely wouldn't go any more than 2.5. I might even be tempted to lower the dose to 2.25 for the time you're gone...he'd be a bit higher when you come home probably, but then you'd know he was safe. It's definitely up to you though. If you feel that 2.5 will be good, that's fine. Maybe since your mom will be there for a few days, she'll be able to try testing him on occasion so she can get more comfortable with it...I'd encourage her to give it a try when she feels up to it for the next few days so she can learn how to do it more. Yes, testing several times a day is best. BUT we have to take care of ourselves. My SS is several years old, but you'll see that I didn't test constantly. I had to work and I had to work around that. If I was home every day, I might have tested more often, but I wasn't. As you get more data on your SS, you're able to more effectively "predict" what they will do which helps. We have to find a balance between taking care of our babies and ourselves...sure during a hypo or when you get a lower number that you shoot on, you'll want to test often. But other than that, you test when you can...very few of us get a nadir every day. It's just not possible with our lives and that's OKAY. There is a healthy balance, and it's important to find it and stick to it.
I agree that 2.5 looks pretty safe right now. I would recommend that you show your mom how to test before you leave. There is nothing like seeing it to help learn. I think it would be much harder to talk her through it if she hasn't seen you do one first. Even if she isn't up for doing the whole testing routine, if she's seen it once at least, she'll be much better prepared in case she does need to do one. And given how Murphy's numbers are trending down lately, before five days are up, he may well be needing a reduction. A test or two may be quite necessary.
I agree with Rachel about dosing - either 2.5 u or even 2.25 u for a little extra margin. And I totally understand the need to balance animal care with human care! The amount of testing I do on Teasel has changed as I learn his responses and patterns. Quite often now I ask myself if a test will yield any information that will change my dose and if it won't I often skip the test. I up the frequency if he nosedives or something else crops up but that's it. I feel that I have a balance that's comfortable for me. Other folks aren't comfortable unless they have a ton of data. We're all different.
Whew!! You guys are so awesome! Thanks for the encouragement and reassurance!! My mom is a nurse, so she'll be fine getting a test here and there. I'll definitely show her how to do it before we leave. Murph had a 160 this morning, so I feel certain that I'll stick with 2.5, maybe even a little lower. Again, I'll see where he is before we leave today and get a better feel. I felt sort of like a crazy person for considering ways to cut my CA trip short to come home to take care of him. I love him enough to do it, but I have got to live my life. Thanks for helping me realize that I'm not alone in that! And, not a bad parent I'll keep you posted on the afternoon dose, and be sure to heed your advice. Glad that I am having to consider lowering his dose b/c his numbers are better!! Again, the neuropathy is another issue. He seems to be a little better with that as his numbers are dropping, so I want to keep it up!!
It might be time to start a new thread for Murphy. This one is getting long and you're well on your way to getting him doing better. That sure shows on the spreadsheet.
Ha! Will do...final post on this one...he was at 116 at 8 hours post-dose before I left. I told mom to do 2.25 tonight, just to be safe. I am going to have her do 2.5 in the morning, though. I did show her how to test. She was a little nervous, and had to stick him twice (which NO ONE likes to do!), but at least she's done it now. Just hit the road for vacation.... Thanks again for the help!
Just a quick update after vacation- after this, I'll start a new thread if/when needed as I continue to monitor his dosage... Thank you all for your help! My mom administered 2.25 twice a day (along with his Zobaline twice a day), and Murphy seems like a new cat! Walking better, too. His first BG since I got back was +6 and at 235, which I wish was lower, but I'm not going to make any changes until I keep testing to see if I need to. His demeanor, appetite, mood, habits, etc are more normal than they've been in months. Hope we've hit some magic #'s! Thank you all for your help with Murphy and with my mental state
