Vaccines

Discussion in 'Feline Health - (The Main Forum)' started by lchandler, Dec 31, 2009.

  1. lchandler

    lchandler New Member

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    Dec 30, 2009
    My cat Vinny has been OTJ since May 2009 -- we are thrilled. I monitor his levels weekly and they are between 70 - 110. He is due next month for his Rabies and FVRCP vaccines (we discontinued the Feline Leukemina shot quite a few years ago since he has no interaction with other cats). He is 14 years old. My concern is that the annual vaccines he is due for are going to throw off his sugar levels. My vet said the shots should not affect his sugar levels. Has anyone experienced any issue with shots causing sugar levels to fluctuate?
     
  2. LynnLee + Mousie

    LynnLee + Mousie Well-Known Member

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    Dec 28, 2009
    if he isn't around wild animals or doesn't go outside or you don't live in an area where bats break into your house all the time, i wouldn't worry about vaccinating at all.

    vaccination is a hot topic in recent years, one because they were causing cancer and two because research shows we've been over vaccinating our animals for decades. supposedly the "new" vaccines are fixed so they are safer but when two vets have told me in the last week that they have to document which spot on the body they give which vaccine, it makes me think they really don't know if they are safe or not. in other words, they are gathering data to see which vaccine is causing problems. by giving each in a certain body location, they will be able to pinpoint the problem one. also, a vet that was here yesterday said the same thing as me, come back to me in 10-20 years with evidence they are safe and i might consider vaccinating again
     
  3. Monique & Spooky

    Monique & Spooky Well-Known Member

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    Dec 29, 2009
    I agree, I have never vacinated my 2 house cats. As kittens they had one roung of vaccinations and none since. They as well do not have contact with other animals. We also have a very low incedence of rabies here (wid animals are vaccinated) I live in Europe and Rabies is very rare (almost erradicated).

    The one thing I have learned is that house cats do need to be dewormed. I always thiought it was only if they went outside or ate "wild" things. Spokky was quite infested a year ago and I had to give him worm meds. Apperently we track the eggs etc. inside on our shoes and stuff, being that cats are mostly on the floor and lick things (feet etc.) they can still get worms.

    My vet recommends for outdoor cats or cats that hve contact with other animals often deworming every 3 months. For Indoor only cats (1 or 2 cats in the house) every 6 months. Others suggest testing (stool sample) first and giving a medication specific to the worm types found, as some meds contain "broad spectrum" Antiparasitics some of which are unessisary and have potential adverse effects.
     
  4. Larry and Kitties

    Larry and Kitties Well-Known Member

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    Dec 28, 2009
    In most places a valid rabies vaccination is required. If you cat does not have a valid rabies vaccination and it bites someone, as a minimum the cat would have to be quarantined for 10 days. Since you did not have a valid rabies vaccination, the animal control office might not deem your household an adequate quarantine location and the quarantine might be done elsewhere. The law/rules in Virginia does not discuss any waivers for the rabies vaccination, even for medical reasons.
     
  5. Hillary & Maui (GA)

    Hillary & Maui (GA) Well-Known Member

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    Dec 28, 2009
  6. Jess & Earl

    Jess & Earl Member

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    Dec 28, 2009
    Just addressing this comment ... Vaccination location for dogs and cats should always be documented in case there is *any* kind of reaction. In cats, locations are determined in part by the risk factor. Vaccines containing a killed virus such as rabies and FeLV also contain a component which has been linked to tumor formation. These vaccines should always be given in a hind leg so that (I know it sounds gruesome) the entire leg can be amputated if a tumor develops. According to this custom, all rabies and FeLV vaccines are given in those locations even if they are NOT killed virus (Merial PureVax series does not use killed viruses).

    Now, having said all that, there are extremely rare reports of vaccine tumor formation using the PureVax vaccines. Unfortunately, in the majority of the unusual cases we can't be sure that it's the PureVax vaccine (and it's probably not) because the cats have been vaccinated in the same location (with the old vaccine) one or more times previously. Aargh. But I know of one well-documented, no-question case involving the FeLV vaccine. Having said all THAT, though, I think the chances are miniscule and I do vaccinate my cat on a bare-minimum schedule.

    One more thing re: the rabies. I happily shook off the idea of vaccinating my cats, and the cats I rescued that were going to live in apartments (I'm in NYC), for rabies since they do need contact with a rabid animal in order to contract the disease. An unfortunate experience of one FDMB member taught me that anything is possible so now all cats that pass through my hands are vaccinated at least once with the PureVax rabies. I vaccinated Dillon this year since he's never been vaccinated before; I'll never vaccinate him again as he's 10 yrs old. Rabies is fatal and there is nothing to do but wring your hands once your cat has a possible exposure, watch for possible symptoms, and freak out if you get a play bite from your cat in the meantime. It has a long incubation period so you have plenty of time to worry :(
     
  7. Jess & Earl

    Jess & Earl Member

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    Dec 28, 2009
    Sorry, it now occurs to me that I could address the original post.

    If your cat had his vaccinations last year it is extremely unlikely that he has lost immunity. If he had his vaccines last year and has been vaccinated previously (within the past few years), it is even more unlikely that he has lost immunity. So the vaccines are most likely unnecessary from that point of view. As Larry points out, though, rabies may be required yearly in your area depending on the vaccine used last year.

    If you do decide to vaccinate, insist on ONLY PureVax brand vaccines by Merial.
     
  8. lchandler

    lchandler New Member

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    Dec 30, 2009
    I appreciate all the input. I am still wondering whether anyone has seen any increase in blood sugar levels after vaccinations.
     
  9. chriscleo

    chriscleo Well-Known Member

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    Dec 28, 2009
    had an interesting discussion about this with a young vet this past week. although he was not pushing FeLV or rabies shots, he said a cat should be vaccinated otherwise, even a strictly indoor cat, because we humans do come into contact with outside cats that could pass something to our own kitties indirectly.

    but unless we're planning to travel into canada or board our cats we're not required to vaccinate them (or our vets certainly won't "report" us here). if i weren't so firmly against vaccinating our kitties because of the tumor risk they might pressure me more, as i've seen them do to new clients who were just trying to figure out the right thing to do for new pets or rescues. in one case i mentioned using an outside shot clinic to a new client, because it is 25% or less of the price my vet would charge, and the vet tech was pretty miffed.

    guessing the full kitten series of shots is important, tho, right?
     
  10. Lisa dvm

    Lisa dvm Member

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    Dec 28, 2009
    Jess is correct here but I am going to jump in and say that I truly would like to string up my colleagues by the most sensitive part of their anatomy in the event that they inject ANY adjuvanted (typical 'killed' vax) into ANY cat.

    We got a very harsh Letter from the AAFP President in our AAFP newsletter....about 2-3 years ago...... where the Pres was gritting her teeth over this issue. A man from Canada had written to her because his vet...an AAFP member...had injected his cat with an adjuvanted rabies vax. The cat ended up with a sarcoma and died.

    This client wrote to the President of the AAFP ....a very gut-wrenching letter asking...."what the *&^% are you teaching the AAFP members and WHY are they not listening if you are preaching NO ADJUVANTS?!?"

    The president's letter was basically....in teeth-clenching fashion....asking......"when will you guys (us vets....) start listening?!?!?"
     
  11. Connie & Em (GA)

    Connie & Em (GA) Member

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    Dec 28, 2009
    My kitty Em was diagnosed when she was nine, and got vaccines for a few years after that. I did not notice a change in her blood sugars afterwards, but this is just one cat's experience and ECID (every cat is different)

    After a few years I had a discussion with my new (at the time) vet (he is still my vet) and he suggested that since she had vaccines every year for over 10 years, that if she wasn't immune now, she was never going to be, so we stopped giving her vaccines.

    Ollie (my current eldest) had a growth near where he gets his vaccine. We have removed it twice now, and he will not get any more vaccines (we stopped at the shot before the growth showed up)

    Vaccines are very controversial. They are important and I feel every cat should have the vaccines that are legally required and the ones that they need due to exposure, but the length of immunity is what is in question. Humans who get rabies vaccines get one every 10+ years. Fortunately they are starting trials to see how long vaccines actually last so we can stop over vaccinating

    Connie
     
  12. Victoria & Sundance

    Victoria & Sundance Member

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    Dec 28, 2009
    lchandler, sorry to go off-topic here but....


    Why don't they just not sell the bad stuff? Why does it still exist? This really makes me sick. I mean how are we supposed to trust any vet about anything when we see/hear about them giving cats pro-cancer shots and forcing us to give three times the insulin we should without home testing. I love my vets, but after all I've learned through you guys, there is no way I would allow anything to be done to Barclay without running it by this board first....

    We have vaccines coming up. I'm reading and reading. I need some because, though Barclay won't come in contact directly with another cat, we want to take him to the park on a lead and he could catch something from just being on the grass.

    Anyway, lchandler, this topic has come up before and always strays this way. It appears from several threads like this that getting vaccinated doesn't raise the BG more than temporarily, like because of the vet visit... Having said that, there are more important issues to consider. I mean, having to be on insulin is small potatoes compared to getting cancer, right?

    And one thing we always say here is that you treat the diabetes around all the other issues and conditions. So if your cat does NEED the vaccines then you treat around that... but please read what Jess and Dr. Lisa have said. It's important stuff that I've been trying to wrap my brain around for the past year.

    Let us know what you decide and why... oh, and a few more people should pop in here tomorrow as well.
     
  13. Larry and Kitties

    Larry and Kitties Well-Known Member

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    Dec 28, 2009
    Regarding the human rabies vaccine (pre-exposure), titers can be done to determine if revaccination with the pre-exposure vaccine is required. Additionally, the pre-exposure human vaccine only reduced the number of shots required if one is bitten by a suspect rabid animal. Post exposure shots of a pre-vaccinated person is still required.

     
  14. Lisa dvm

    Lisa dvm Member

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    Dec 28, 2009
    Because the newer, safer vaccines are about 8 times more expensive.

    Therefore you have to have:

    1) a vet who is willing to either sacrifice on a bit of profit margin or raise the price to maintain profit margin and

    2) a client willing to pay the higher price

    #2 should not be an issue with an informed client but in very low income areas where people are not going to get the vaccines if they are one penny more....then that presents another problem - especially with outdoor cats in areas with a high level of rabies-infected animals.

    Given that, I should amend my 'string 'em up by their little toes' comment to 'string 'em up by their toes if they do not educate their clients and give them an INFORMED CHOICE'.
     
  15. Victoria & Sundance

    Victoria & Sundance Member

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    Dec 28, 2009
    [/quote]


    I'll agree here. I think this is the most important point in this conversation. The thing is, isn't someone who is not willing or able to pay for a better/safer vaccine probably not going to be able or willing to pay for the amputation of the cancerous leg? So the risk, no matter how small, is not of a possible amputation but of certain death.

    I guess the other sad thing is that many of us here cannot yet trust that our vets have all the information. And this seems simple stuff. I do feel mine is up-to-date on this and he understands, and more importantly respects, my feelings about vaccines as well as other things. I don't expect them all to know everything about everything, but in most other professions, when you get a notice from your professional body, you listen. This sort of thing would not fly in the law... An equal type notice would mean that each lawyer would have to have this conversation with each client, if the issue came up, and they would have to take notes to prove to the regulatory body that the conversation was had and what the client decided. If this wasn't done and the worst case scenario happened, they'd be sued - easily.
     
  16. Jill and Remi

    Jill and Remi Member

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    Dec 28, 2009
    I hope you got the answer...maybe an elevated bg number due to the vet visit. But please, if you do have the vaccinations make sure to get them in the limbs...NEVER the SCRUFF! As has been stated, if VAS does occur because of a vaccine you can remove the limb to save the cat.
     
  17. Karen and Flo

    Karen and Flo Member

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    Dec 28, 2009
    Just had to say, in response to Dr. Lisa's "little toes" comment: little toes are not AT ALL the sensitive bits I envisioned those bad vets being strung up by. ;)
     
  18. Lisa dvm

    Lisa dvm Member

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    Dec 28, 2009
    Well....I was in a more 'kind and gentle' mood when I typed the second post. A bit of a 'mea culpa' for forgetting that some of my colleagues practice in very rural areas where they are hard-pressed to even make a living....or to even get people to vaccinate at all!!

    That said, I still think that informed consent is a vital part of this conversation....although I picture a colleague in the middle of a very poor area....with poorly educated (in general - not just about vet matters) clients (no disrespect intended...just stating facts...) trying to have this conversation with their average client.

    I have to remember that things are very different..... in different areas of the world.

    Also keep in mind that we usually need to order a minimum of a tray of 25 vaccines. That is a lot of money to put out if they will not be used up prior to their expiration date.
     
  19. Karen and Flo

    Karen and Flo Member

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    Dec 28, 2009
    Re: Vaccines--necessary/recommended list

    Does anyone know of a list of necessary and/or recommended vaccines, the schedules for necessary boosters, and preferred/safest brands? More specifically for indoor/outdoor cats, assuming that makes a difference?
     
  20. Larry and Kitties

    Larry and Kitties Well-Known Member

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    Dec 28, 2009

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