Vitamin b discussion

I don't know what happened but all of a sudden I was able to start a new thread.

I read all the info Marje sent me on Tanya's site. It's too, too much. I am going to follow Marje's advice and post as problems arise. I am financially and emotionally drained. I will do my best, but Riley has to do the rest. I apologize to all but I have made the decision that if, in spite of all I have attempted, Riley cannot recover and have SOME quality of life, I have to face reality and let him go. I am not a doctor and I depend heavily on you all to guide me, however, I will not give intravenous fluids, and I no longer have the finances to continue with more bloodwork, other tests at the vet, overnight feedings at the vet's, etc. I have cried my eyes out over this and, at some point, have to realize that releasing him to go across the bridge to a new and better life where he is no longer in pain, and where my Savior guarantees that He will give me 'the desires of my heart' when I cross, means that I will be with Riley and all my other pets again. I do not wish to make you all sad, and you know I will try, but I have to see some indication that Riley is getting better.

 

I am not expert on what to do or not to do. I hear your worry and your heartache. Sometimes, no matter how hard we fight, what is meant to be will be. Riley is your guide here, he will tell you when it is time for him. You never know how much spirit he as left...sometime time is what is required. I wish for you all the best.

 

Thanks for your kind words of support.

 

Great idea! I know first hand how overwhelming managing concurrent health conditions can be. One day at a time. One step at a time. It's much easier that way.

We don't give intravenous fluids if that's what you're worried about. We administer subcutaneous fluids. The needle is inserted under the skin... just like an insulin shot. It's not as difficult as it may sound.

I understand. One has to do what they have to do. Although, you may find there will be a lot less expense by taking advantage of the help found here so please don't come to any decisions yet. I've never added up how much money and time I've saved by learning from others here on the FDMB, but the figure has to have reached the thousands by now.

Of course you will! We know that. You wouldn't be here if you weren't trying! No judgements here.



Cherie, the subject line of your original post reads, "Vitamin b discussion". Do you have questions about the use of vitamin B?

 

Cherie, you do not have to apologize to us. Only you know how difficult your situation is. We all know how much you love Riley, and we know you only want what's best for him. I have been in a similar situation more times than I care to count, weighing the desire to keep trying against the quality of life my kitty was experiencing. You just do what you can, and when Riley has had enough, he will let you know. We don't judge people for making those decisions here. We all get it.

 

The neuropathy is difficult to watch..horrible in fact. Luckily Doodles finally recovered fully after 6 months. However, for the last year since his HCM diagnosis which has gotten worse every 3 months and the recurrent congestive heart failure, along with him becoming insulin resistant, I've questioned what the heck I'm doing many times. He hates the heart meds, he's given me more than a few scares and I've had more breakdowns than I can count. Many times I've wanted to stop the heart meds and even the insulin, let him eat what he wants and go on his own.

I've had to look at this Quality of Life Scale frequently. http://www.aplb.org/resources/quality-of-life_scale.php It has helped me significantly in determining if I'm keeping him here for me if it's still OK to keep taking care of him. I'm sharing it not to make you sad but maybe it will help you like it has me.

Like everyone has said, we don't judge here.

 

I meant to add. You have to do this on a few different days. Sometimes my emotions are very high and I don't see clearly until the next day or so.

 

Cherie

There is no doubt that this is hard and we respect any decision you make as Riley is your cat. We all walk in different shoes so we cannot judge.

But...know that it sometimes takes a bit of time to turn things around to better days. CKD is a condition that you can treat and have them stable and feeling well but the kidneys are not going to heal. And so there might be a "new normal" for Riley that you can both live with.

The first time I saw Tanya's site, I, too, was overwhelmed and then I saw just started breaking it down and reading what I needed to know at that moment because some things are a priority....like phosphorus control, potassium, and anemia. Those are the things I've tried to focus on in giving you information. However, I think it's best for you to read it because I can't rewrite it all here and there might be something that might apply to Riley because.....ECID.

 

I come here to cry and reach out for hope at the same time always forgetting that you all are in the same war as me.... a war to save our best friends. Riley ate a little today but he is suspicious about his food. I now know he will not eat anything with the binder or potassium on it. He is expert at spitting out pills. Is there a capsule I can use to get some of this in him that he won't eject somewhere around my house? It has to be small. I got the Zobaline down him today but I cut it in three smaller pieces. Thanks all again.

 

I use b12 that comes in a caplet which I open and sprinkle on the food. I've treated the powder and don't taste anything.

You could buy size 4 or 5 empty gel caps to put pills in as well.

 

@JanetNJ , I bought the same B vitamin and it had rice flour in it and I was afraid to give it but apparently if you used it with C.C. and got her OTJ it was not a significant amount of rice to worry about.

 

I do the same, in fact, I open and dump multiple capsules into a small plastic container and then use mini-measuring spoon to dose. I dump dose into his cycle food and mix well. He then gets a little in each snack.

These are the measuring spoons:
https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B0009X1P9S/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o03_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Half a capsule (250mcg) is a "smidgen" measurement.

 

Yeah it must be a very tiny amount. I still give her some. I open one and put it in hers and my ckd cat Zimmy 's.

 

Whatis the brand name?

 

Vitacost. I got it on amazon
Vitacost Vitamin B-12 Methylcobalamin -- 500 mcg - 300 Capsules https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0046IET7C/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_gbgNybBTC3SP4

 

Apparently a lot of peeps have had really good results with using it for their kitties. I bought it "just in case " but my mom and I are taking it now. Great for the nervous system.

 

I love those measuring spoons and need to get some! That is how my Mammy cooked when I asked for her recipe, it was " a smidgeon of this and dash of that" Thx for the equation of 1/2 of capsule.

 

That is what I have always used and I've linked for you before, Cherie.

 

My vet actually gave me a liquid B12 that I inject...he went from every week to every 3 weeks now. B12 levels seem to be maintaining and were actually high on the last BW and I don't have to worry about 1 more pill to give. I was scared at first but with him going FD that had to fly out the window pretty fast. Vet indicated that if all is good on the next set of BW will be moving to every 4 to 6 weeks.

 

If Riley is suspisious about food with binder or potassium in it, you might want to look at Tanya's website. Here are the instructions on giving aluminum hydroxide with food (it should be given with food). One recommendation is to mix with food and a bit of water and let is sit for a few minuets before serving. For potassium, one suggestion on Tanya's site is to spread a little bit out over multiple meals, not all at once.

For capsules - I used these #5 capsules.

 

Cherie, I have a minute and just wanted to lend my support. Gizmo was so sick back in Aug/Sept/Oct 2016 I wasn't sure he was going to make it. I, like you, was overwhelmed with information, pills, vet visits and worry and tears. At one point, I really wasn't sure I was doing the right thing by "forcing pills and food" but I wasn't sure what else to do. He was in the midst of a very sever pancreatitis attack, not eating and had been sent home from the hospital (where he had been for six days) in the hopes he would start eating on his own. I had been feeding raw but at the time I was giving him anything and everything I could think of in the hopes he would eat. He would show interest and then turn around and drag his back legs back to his "hiding" place and lay there until another option was put down for him. He had gone from almost 17#'s down to just over 8#'s. And then he was diagnosed with FD - pretty sure it was from the Hills K/D and steroids. It was a very, very slow process and we are still working on him. His weight is now 12#'s. He is eating with enthusiasm. He is playful and obnoxious. He hasn't had another panc flare since then (anti-jinx). His last blood work shows that that the ckd is better and some numbers have significantly improved.

If, at anytime, I had sensed that he had given up - the question would have been answered for me, but he never did. He kept fighting and I decided as long as he was fighting so would I.

I know the urgency you feel with trying to get all the supplements and meds started and working, but don't go too fast that you don't have any success. Kinda like the SLGS protocol - any progress is still progress. It isn't something you can hurry.

Don't give off negative vibes - be enthusiastic with what you are feeding "Look Riley - yum, yummers" I know some will think it is crazy, but I truly feel they feed off your own feelings. Try hand feeding - Gizmo wouldn't eat for me - but would take small portions from DH - who knows, I didn't care - lol.

I have a ton of #4 capsules and I will never use all of them - if you want some PM your address and I will get them out to you tomorrow.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00CGBBXCU/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I can put some of the B-12 capsules I have in there also - along with some SEB powder if you need any. Again, I have a ton of this stuff and with such a small amount we give them I would rather it be used than to go bad.

This is the B-12 I have (I think it is the same as listed above):
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0046IET7C/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1

And this is the SEB I use:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000UE25XQ/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Hang it there

 

I had a minute to check this thread and lo, and behold, a very positive post that I took a few minutes to send off to you all early this morning apparently is in email land somewhere and never made it here. So, I'll start over with what I had to say. I started thinking about all the positive things that have happened for Riley since I met you all. His BG is down and he is in green numbers mostly and I can see that he is headed toward remission. He isn't howling all night, three nights in a row now!!! He is walking up on his toes. He can jump down but still not up. He is able to get out of the litter box sometimes without litter and pee all over his feet. He is not peeing buckets in places other than his litter box that I have to spend hours cleaning up. He is having no constipation issues and he isn't dragging his poor butt across the floor to get the poop to come out. He willingly sits without complaint while I have picked his ears and given him hundreds of shots. His blood tests and urinalysis revealed a couple of critical issues but we still have a chance to make his life better. This morning, he actually ate food with the binder and potassium mixed in. He isn't showing any more hair loss at this time. Plus, I have outsmarted him, for the time being, by pilling him with the little Zobaline pill broken into three pieces which he can't expel. Another positive is that I now know that my decision NOT to have human children was the right one as this journey has taught me to have more faith, love, and commitment toward another creature than I ever thought I had the will or ability inside of me to do and I never want to go through this again!!! lol

The journey has been made easier because of all of you, your encouraging words, Marje's patience with me, lots of good advice, experiences you are all willing to share with me. You are all angels!!!!

 

Can I just give you my address here? Your offer is much appreciated and I would like to try what you suggested? Do you think I can get a capsule down Mr. I Can Hold A Pill In MY Mouth Until You're Not Looking And Then Leave It In Many Different Places For You To Find Later?

 

Oh, no! Don't publish it on the forum.

I will send you a private message and you can respond. It will show up as a message in your "in box" at the top of the page beside your user name.

 

Marje, Cherie asked about continuing the Zobaline with the addition of the B-12 (Methylcobalamin). I couldn't answer - can you let her know?

 

Hi Marje,
The question was the Zobaline is 3 mg per pill. I give Riley 2 per day. The vitamin b you use is 500mcg per day (big difference) and I was wondering if I should reduce Riley's dose to one Zobaline a day?

 

Omg my cat is the same. He cheeked a pill for 10 min once! He takes two pills in the morning and one in the evening (hi blood pressure and protienuria). The best we have found that works for us is putting the tiny pills in pill masker(it's like a putty) I wrap a towel around him so he doesn't try to push me away, tilt his head back and pry the alligators mouth open, and my partner drops in the pill, I close his mouth, and she syringes in water. (We put water in a ff can so the syringe can be refilled because it usually takes about three tries.) lol. Then he gets his food.

 

Cherie...you are using the Zobaline for his neuropathy and so I probably wouldn't reduce the dose until it is resolved. I also wouldn't give both products...the Zobaline and the Vita Cost. Either one will help with the anemia as long as you are also giving a B complex. The methylB12 alone will not address the anemia.

Once his neuropathy is gone and he's back to normal in regard to his legs, you can either decrease the Zobaline so he's getting a total of 500 mcg a day, divided, or you can switch to the Vita Cost. It doesn't really matter.

 

Not to high jack but I have a question - is it the folic acid that helps with the neuropathy then? I looked at both ingredients and the Zobaline has FA and B12 where the vita coast is only the B12.

Also, would you give B complex in addition to the B12 (treating neuropathy with B12 and anemia with the B complex)?

Are all B vitamins water soluble?

 

Another member turned me onto this B12/Folic Acid combination as a much cheaper alternative to Zobaline:
2 of these: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B008NIHCZC/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1
and 1 drop of this: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00VVL6G0A/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

It's the methylB12 that treats the neuropathy. You don't need B complex to treat neuropathy but you need the methylB12 and the B Complex for the anemia.

 

@Marje and Gracie
I didn't go with the Zobaline. At the time I was concerned that the calcium silicate in the Z would increase Gizmo's Calcium level which was already on the high side of normal. That is why I asked.

 

I was just speaking in generalities and actually tailoring my response to Cherie since she asked if she should switch.

 

Got home a while ago from my trip and Riley still looks pretty worn out. Poor guy immediately got poked and I gave him 1.25 ml of the brand new bottle of Nutrived. He is refusing the expensive Wuruva unless it's in another cat's bowl and will not touch anything with phosphorus binder or potassium in it so I'll be getting the #5 capsules. Should I worry about constipation with all the new stuff I am giving him?

 

I have an extra bottle of the vitacost methyl b12 if you want it.... pm me your address and i'll get it in the mail.

it is tasteless.... it's a capsule .... so you can sprinkle it on the food... and since it's pink.... you can tell if he looks like he's eaten enough of it on his food.....

some cats take 3 months to get better from neuropathy but it does help them greatly. I wouldn't skip on the methyl b12....



and as for your question about constipation....
I used to dip capsules in real butter to make sure it slid down without getting stuck in the throat.....
that also helps with constipation....

 

I just wanted to send you a little TLC, Cherie. I loved seeing your update above with all of his progress. When you're treating a chronic illness, which both diabetes and chronic kidney disease are, it can take time to see progress and you definitely have to look at the little things. Even not flooding the litter box anymore is a great sign!!

Hang in there! You're doing a great job with all you have to juggle. This isn't easy but I know Riley appreciates all you are doing for him. Does he seem to be feeling better today?

And I see an all green ss with 3 days of skippped shots! WAHOO!

Hugs, julie

 

So funny to read about your pilling technique with your cat! Also, it's great to read about another YA user. Sometimes it's the only food Riley eats so I at least know he's getting something good in his system.

 

I am discouraged a little because even though he is reaching remission it took so long to get him there that his kidneys are damaged. He looks rough and tired. I got the Nutrived into him at least so hopefully it gets his energy up. The phosphorus binder and potassium are another story. I am going to order capsules and try to get them down him that way.

 

Another help to get pills down is to use Pill Pockets. The dog version that is Duck and Pea flavored is safe for diabetic cats - no sugar and shouldn't affect blood sugar too much. It's like play dough and you just enclose the pill with a little bit of the pill pocket so it masks the taste. I also found that it helps the capsules/pills not stick to your fingers.

 

Are they chewable then? Or would I put the binder and potassium in them without the actual capsule?

 

Would love to try your vitamin b12 but I guess we have to start a conversation for me to give you my address.

 

It took Doodles 6 months to recover from neuropathy and I also used the Vitacost Methyl b-12. Doodles is a lousy eater and he never detected it in his food either.