? What dose should I go with?

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rbrumbaugh82

I am about to give him his shot for the night. I was told to report on here before I gave a shot and I just wnat to know how many units should I go with and stick with?
 
Sorry - I'm not able to provide any good advice on dosing, but if you edit your thread title to include the question mark prefix (from the drop down menu), that's supposed to help draw attention more quickly from folks who are on line.
 
jmalasiuk said:
Sorry - I'm not able to provide any good advice on dosing, but if you edit your thread title to include the question mark prefix (from the drop down menu), that's supposed to help draw attention more quickly from folks who are on line.
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thanks
 
From your previous thread: Have to start over with Lantus and any help with usused Lantus Pens?

I see a suggestion to drop the dose to 3u bid has been made by Marje. Julie and Sienne agreed. Testing for ketones becomes a "must do".
I suggested moving forward at 5u bid (following the guidelines in the TR Protocol), ditching the dry, and monitoring carefully while keeping in mind once Poopers has reached a break through dose he could begin a rapid descent down the dosing scale.

The choice is yours.
 
I don't know how to test for Ketones. I gave him 2 units because i didn't see any responses as it seemed like just a suggestion and I was surpassing his usual shot time. So I just went with 2 units.
 
I was giving him 5 units for more than 5 days and it stayed the same as his glucose. Just everything is off
 
How about I just lose my mind since I am about to lose that with all of this. I'm trying to do the best thing here but I have one saying this and someone else saying to do this. Do I go low back to 2 units for a week to see what it does or do I increase from 5 units since at 5 units it wasn't dropping his glucose low and see if after a while if he is taking 5.5 units/2 times a day if that breaks and starts to drop his numbers then I can decrease his dosage?
 
I see a suggestion to drop the dose to 3u bid has been made by Marje. Julie and Sienne agreed. Testing for ketones becomes a "must do".
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Actually, I said:
He started to see some blue numbers at 4u and so that is probably as low as I would back off the dose to and then I'd follow the SLGS Method for holding doses, increasing doses, etc. The other option is to hold the current dose and follow the SLGS Method because if he is overdose, he will eventually break through and start down but you'll have to keep monitoring him as you are because when they do break through a high dose, they can come down quickly.
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I bolded it to show that I thought she had an option to hold the dose and not decrease it. :):)
 
rbrumbaugh82 said:
I have one saying this and someone else saying to do this.
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I think what people are trying to tell you is that you have options, and in the end the choice is yours. None of us can make the decision for you, we can only offer opinions on what we think might or might not help. And, as with everything else in life, everyone has their own opinion so you may get some conflicting information. No-one here is trying to confuse you, just making sure you're aware of all the options everyone can think of so that you can make an informed choice on what to do next. There are different ways of handling situations like the one you have with Poopers and no-one can tell you for sure which of the options you have is going to be the right one because "Every Cat is Different". What you have to do is take the information you've been given, decide which course of action you're happy taking and go with that decision. Remember as well, no-one's going to be upset or offended if you don't choose the solution they offered and everyone will still be here to help you no matter which of the options you decide you want to go with. :) There's nothing to stop you trying one option - but you need to give it a reasonable try out for a good few days - and if it doesn't work, moving on to the next until you find one that does help. :)
 
My apology @Marje and Gracie .
I quoted comments made by Julie which I received via email because I'm watching this thread, but I see the entire post has been deleted:
Julie: "Marje suggested you could reduce to 3.0u and hold it for a few days. Sienne agreed. I agree."
 
manxcat419 said:
I think what people are trying to tell you is that you have options, and in the end the choice is yours. None of us can make the decision for you, we can only offer opinions on what we think might or might not help. And, as with everything else in life, everyone has their own opinion so you may get some conflicting information. No-one here is trying to confuse you, just making sure you're aware of all the options everyone can think of so that you can make an informed choice on what to do next. There are different ways of handling situations like the one you have with Poopers and no-one can tell you for sure which of the options you have is going to be the right one because "Every Cat is Different". What you have to do is take the information you've been given, decide which course of action you're happy taking and go with that decision. Remember as well, no-one's going to be upset or offended if you don't choose the solution they offered and everyone will still be here to help you no matter which of the options you decide you want to go with. :) There's nothing to stop you trying one option - but you need to give it a reasonable try out for a good few days - and if it doesn't work, moving on to the next until you find one that does help. :)
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Believe me, I'm not trying to take anything out on anyone. Its just been a downfall lately or basically since January when the last time he was in the blues a lot. I don't know what I am doing wrong and I know having an overweight cat is working against me. I've never tested him for Ketones and pray that he doesn't have them. I am trying to figure out the correct dose for him and given that I've read that people have given over 10 units of insulin worries me because at 5 units he isn't dropping into the 100s hardly. So I don't know if he needs more but I don't want to do that because my Vet a while ago though 3 units was a lot for Pooper's and that going above 4 would mean the insulin isn't the right one. I have gone down that route 2 times with N and BCP Bovine insulin. I was given advice to try Levemir if I go for a new insulin and I just hate to think about all this switching on him if Lantus has worked wonders for so many and I wonder if he just hasn't received enough. Not to mention eating enough throughout the day because I am struggling to find which food will work best for him. Being that he is older and overweight, I don't want to worry about his kidneys and such so I want to feed him a low phosphorus food and basically a food that is low mineral and acidic so that his pH will stay in normal range to avoid bladder problems. So now you can see why I stress so much and my cats are all worth it even if I pass out.
 
rbrumbaugh82 said:
Believe me, I'm not trying to take anything out on anyone. Its just been a downfall lately or basically since January when the last time he was in the blues a lot. I don't know what I am doing wrong and I know having an overweight cat is working against me. I've never tested him for Ketones and pray that he doesn't have them. I am trying to figure out the correct dose for him and given that I've read that people have given over 10 units of insulin worries me because at 5 units he isn't dropping into the 100s hardly. So I don't know if he needs more but I don't want to do that because my Vet a while ago though 3 units was a lot for Pooper's and that going above 4 would mean the insulin isn't the right one. I have gone down that route 2 times with N and BCP Bovine insulin. I was given advice to try Levemir if I go for a new insulin and I just hate to think about all this switching on him if Lantus has worked wonders for so many and I wonder if he just hasn't received enough. Not to mention eating enough throughout the day because I am struggling to find which food will work best for him. Being that he is older and overweight, I don't want to worry about his kidneys and such so I want to feed him a low phosphorus food and basically a food that is low mineral and acidic so that his pH will stay in normal range to avoid bladder problems. So now you can see why I stress so much and my cats are all worth it even if I pass out.
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I completely understand why you're stressed - never think I don't understand or don't sympathize because I really do. I can remember only too clearly how stressed I was with Rosa in the beginning when ALL her numbers were black and didn't seem to come down no matter what I did. I totally agree - our cats are worth all the stress and all the heartache because of the love they give us and I know you've spent all your time trying to do the right thing for Poopers to get him well.

rbrumbaugh82 said:
So I shouldn't have went down to 2U then but instead stuck with what I was giving him? :( I screwed up yet again
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No, you didn't screw up - you took one of the opinions you'd been offered, which was to reduce his dose, and went with it. You can only do the best you can do - reducing was an option, holding the same dose was an option and increasing was an option. You can't do all 3 at once so please take it easy on yourself. I'll say it one more time - you're doing the very best you can, which is all anyone can ask of you - and you shouldn't be asking more than that of yourself either :bighug: How does Poopers seem in himself - is he happy? purring? Those things mean a lot too - it's not all about his numbers and I'm sure if you look at his overall behavior he has quality of life thanks to the effort you're putting into all of this.
 
Pooper's Mom Dad: take a deep breath :) You haven't done anything wrong and it does get confusing for a new member when you get different suggestions. You don't know what the best thing to do is or which advice you should take especially when the suggested doses vary by so much. And you are also dealing with what your vet has told you.

It isn't true that if the dose goes above 4u that it's the wrong insulin. Try not to get wrapped around how much insulin he might need right now; just decide on the dose, try to shoot consistently, and monitor. If Pooper's needs more insulin, he does so just decide which method you'd like to follow and start following it. There isn't one among us who doesn't think we should have done something differently at one time or another but you just move forward.

Hang in there. We are a great support group and if you get different opinions, ask more questions to help you decide.
 
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I had posted what Jill quoted in your earlier thread, at the same moment as Jill. I deleted my post because it conflicted with hers. Jill has years more experience than me and I would defer to her.

I also was heading out and didn't have time to discuss things properly.

In any case, your situation isn't clearcut, because of how you got to this point. We're doing the best we can to help you.

We've all had diabetic cats and we all understand how incredibly difficult and stressful the beginning is. Things are unsettled for you now, but as this tangled web gets straightened out it will get easier. Infinitely easier. So hang in there.

You're talking about food changes, you aren't sure about the dose, you aren't even sure if your insulin is ok. You're also worried about his weight.

It's no wonder you feel overwhelmed. We're a great support group, so keep asking questions and we'll help you figure things out.
 
It is frustrating to see nothing working. One thing to remember is that not every cat is going to reach remission. Won't matter if the caretaker does everything right or wrong, the cat's pancreas just isn't going to be able to function properly again. Some cats end up being high dose cats. Not because the caretaker didn't do things right, but because that is what the cat needs. Try to settle into the mindset of trying to determine the best treatment plan for Pooper instead of focusing on what will get his numbers down the fastest. Lantus will never beat down numbers for you. It does wonderful things. For people who use it with precision and patience.

Now that you've made a decision to go with 2U, are you going to try to remove the dry food from his diet as suggested? A reduced dose is always a safer time to do that. Getting some Ketone test strips to watch for Ketones would be a good idea too. Even if a reduction may not be what is needed, unless you see Pooper developing ketones or in some other distress, time to follow the process. Trust me, it takes a lot of the stress out of it when you can find the help to make your decisions right there in the protocol steps. Work your way back up the the higher dose safely and in the proper steps so that if you reach 5U again, the experienced caregivers can look at your spread and see you got there increasing by 0.25-0.5 so they can believe you didn't miss your optimum dose.

Breathe! I've been at this for 5+ years and this is my 4th diabetic and I've gotten tired, frustrated and made wrong decisions on him. We just get back on track and do our best by them.
 
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manxcat419 said:
I completely understand why you're stressed - never think I don't understand or don't sympathize because I really do. I can remember only too clearly how stressed I was with Rosa in the beginning when ALL her numbers were black and didn't seem to come down no matter what I did. I totally agree - our cats are worth all the stress and all the heartache because of the love they give us and I know you've spent all your time trying to do the right thing for Poopers to get him well.



No, you didn't screw up - you took one of the opinions you'd been offered, which was to reduce his dose, and went with it. You can only do the best you can do - reducing was an option, holding the same dose was an option and increasing was an option. You can't do all 3 at once so please take it easy on yourself. I'll say it one more time - you're doing the very best you can, which is all anyone can ask of you - and you shouldn't be asking more than that of yourself either :bighug: How does Poopers seem in himself - is he happy? purring? Those things mean a lot too - it's not all about his numbers and I'm sure if you look at his overall behavior he has quality of life thanks to the effort you're putting into all of this.
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Well he does Purr when I feed him and rub him. He seems alert but sleeps more than plenty but I know a lot of cats do sleep alot. He just isn't playful as I want him to be even if he is overweight and older. My dilemma is trying to figure out the best food approach. On here I have half who say to not feed dry even if it is YAZC and others that say it has worked for their cat to get them into remission. I know the remission rates are higher with the wet food diet on here than the dry food diet. However, the FF that I feed around here my inside cats hardly touch. They just nibble at it but don't show me any enthusiasm that they crave it. Pooper's eats the Turkey and Giblet but his numbers don't budge much.
 
julie & punkin (ga) said:
I had posted what Jill quoted in your earlier thread, at the same moment as Jill. I deleted my post because it conflicted with hers. Jill has years more experience than me and I would defer to her.

I also was heading out and didn't have time to discuss things properly.

In any case, your situation isn't clearcut, because of how you got to this point. We're doing the best we can to help you.

We've all had diabetic cats and we all understand how incredibly difficult and stressful the beginning is. Things are unsettled for you now, but as this tangled web gets straightened out it will get easier. Infinitely easier. So hang in there.

You're talking about food changes, you aren't sure about the dose, you aren't even sure if your insulin is ok. You're also worried about his weight.

It's no wonder you feel overwhelmed. We're a great support group, so keep asking questions and we'll help you figure things out.
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Thanks, and I really do hope I find the solution soon. I'm not sure if the go low approach is going to work because as you can see from yesterday, just on 2 units he stayed in the 300s all day. That is pretty much the same scenario when he was on that BCP insulin and I gave him 2-3 units. He stays consistent but in the 300s all day. Too bad I can't get him to be consistent in the 100s all day long. May need like 6 units or more until he breaks through but I also do not want to overdose him on insulin either.
 
Melanie and Smokey said:
It is frustrating to see nothing working. One thing to remember is that not every cat is going to reach remission. Won't matter if the caretaker does everything right or wrong, the cat's pancreas just isn't going to be able to function properly again. Some cats end up being high dose cats. Not because the caretaker didn't do things right, but because that is what the cat needs. Try to settle into the mindset of trying to determine the best treatment plan for Pooper instead of focusing on what will get his numbers down the fastest. Lantus will never beat down numbers for you. It does wonderful things. For people who use it with precision and patience.

Now that you've made a decision to go with 2U, are you going to try to remove the dry food from his diet as suggested? A reduced dose is always a safer time to do that. Getting some Ketone test strips to watch for Ketones would be a good idea too. Even if a reduction may not be what is needed, unless you see Pooper developing ketones or in some other distress, time to follow the process. Trust me, it takes a lot of the stress out of it when you can find the help to make your decisions right there in the protocol steps. Work your way back up the the higher dose safely and in the proper steps so that if you reach 5U again, the experienced caregivers can look at your spread and see you got there increasing by 0.25-0.5 so they can believe you didn't miss your optimum dose.
Melanie and Smokey said:
It is frustrating to see nothing working. One thing to remember is that not every cat is going to reach remission. Won't matter if the caretaker does everything right or wrong, the cat's pancreas just isn't going to be able to function properly again. Some cats end up being high dose cats. Not because the caretaker didn't do things right, but because that is what the cat needs. Try to settle into the mindset of trying to determine the best treatment plan for Pooper instead of focusing on what will get his numbers down the fastest. Lantus will never beat down numbers for you. It does wonderful things. For people who use it with precision and patience.

Now that you've made a decision to go with 2U, are you going to try to remove the dry food from his diet as suggested? A reduced dose is always a safer time to do that. Getting some Ketone test strips to watch for Ketones would be a good idea too. Even if a reduction may not be what is needed, unless you see Pooper developing ketones or in some other distress, time to follow the process. Trust me, it takes a lot of the stress out of it when you can find the help to make your decisions right there in the protocol steps. Work your way back up the the higher dose safely and in the proper steps so that if you reach 5U again, the experienced caregivers can look at your spread and see you got there increasing by 0.25-0.5 so they can believe you didn't miss your optimum dose.

Breathe! I've been at this for 5+ years and this is my 4th diabetic and I've gotten tired, frustrated and made wrong decisions on him. We just get back on track and do our best by them.
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The problem I have is that before I changed him to YAZC, he was eating just Turkey and Giblets FF for several weeks. However, it never helped his numbers. The reason for the 100s back in December and January was because he may have not been fully diabetic and the Novalin N was working to drop his numbers but never consistent in his system. I just wish I had those numbers again.

Breathe! I've been at this for 5+ years and this is my 4th diabetic and I've gotten tired, frustrated and made wrong decisions on him. We just get back on track and do our best by them.
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rbrumbaugh82 said:
On here I have half who say to not feed dry even if it is YAZC and others that say it has worked for their cat to get them into remission. I know the remission rates are higher with the wet food diet on here than the dry food diet. However, the FF that I feed around here my inside cats hardly touch. They just nibble at it but don't show me any enthusiasm that they crave it. Pooper's eats the Turkey and Giblet but his numbers don't budge much.
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A couple of things to keep in perspective about food, diabetes, and remission:

  1. Some cats are going to go into remission almost no matter what the caregiver does. It's true! There are some who show up here, give a few shots or maybe a month or two worth of shots, and the cat pretty much falls off the juice. They might do everything "wrong" but they still go into remission. There are others who will never go into remission, no matter what. It's not fair, but it's the way it is. Fortunately most of our cats fall somewhere in the middle, where some hard work and diligence can give them a better shot at remission. So we do the best we can and try to at least get the numbers into a good range where the cat can go OTJ if they want to, or if not, at least they will be as healthy as possible. But that can take time and patience.
  2. Most dry foods are 20% carbs and up. A lot of cats show up here eating dry foods that are 30% or higher. If you switch from 30% carbs to 6-8% carbs, then you bet the numbers will drop, even if both foods are still dry. If the cat is one that is borderline diabetic, or maybe they had the diet issue plus a urinary tract infection or something that caused their numbers to be high, then absolutely that change might be enough to tip the scale into remission. If you need to feed dry and your cat can tolerate YAZC, then it's probably one of the best choices. The wet vs. dry debate is about much more than remission or numbers.
  3. To give a personal example, my 3rd diabetic cat was Kris Kringle (spreadsheet in signature). I had to feed him dry food and higher carb wet food due to some other health conditions. Most of the time he was eating a dry food that was around 12% carbs and his wet foods were 12-18% carbs, so roughly the same. I will tell you that in my experience, managing his insulin was much harder once he started eating dry food, even though the carbs were nearly the same. I know how to dose insulin so I knew how to deal with his numbers being a bit higher because of the carb count, but the dry food made everything unpredictable. I'm actually pretty good at seeing patterns in spreadsheets that a lot of people can't see, but I couldn't figure his out. That meant I couldn't be as aggressive as I wanted to be with the insulin, which meant I couldn't get his numbers down into a range that might lead to remission. I was ok with that because in his case, that food was keeping him alive for a while longer. For others who aren't in such a fragile situation, I would say to do whatever you can reasonably do to give your cat the best chance. That would mean low carb wet food and a good methodical dosing protocol.
Regarding dose: since you have reduced the dose, I would take this opportunity to be very methodical with your dosing changes so you will never, ever have to question whether your dose is too much or too little again. Read the protocols on this board and follow one of them (with dry food in the picture, that means Start Low Go Slow, or you can ditch the dry food and do Tight Regulation). For you, following either protocol means that you will need to slow down, take a few good breaths, and trust us when we say that you will get there. ;) These protocols are time-tested and they work. You test enough so you'll be able to see what is going on. If you do that, each time you increase the dose you will be doing it because you are confident that the current dose isn't enough. Developing that confidence is worth the little bit of extra time it will take.

eta: now I see that I wrote almost the same things Melanie did. Great minds think alike!
 
I don't think it was the method...I think it was the dose. I think dosing consistently for a week and then reassessing is what you need to do right now.

Whether you feed YAZC is up to you. He's your cat and it doesn't matter what anyone says about what you "should" do. There is the reality of whether a cat will eat canned food. There is no doubt in my mind that he would likely do better on low carb canned or raw food because then you could follow the TR protocol and I think dry food, zero carb or not, is too limiting in moisture that cats need. Have you tried giving him the wet with YZ crumbled on top and then slowly taking away the YA?

Having said the above, again, he's your cat and he's gotta eat.
 
Wet food isn't working for him no matter what I feed him. Yeah he eats it but I don't see any results. The only thing I see his more urine clumps but he still drinks the same as if he was eating dry food. So I talked to YA lady well my girlfriend did and I am going to stick to this and try it. Its hard to explain and I know others won't care because they are against whole dry food debate and say wet food for diabetics is better. Well call me crazy but I don't see what makes a difference when a company makes a high protein low carb food despite the 10% moisture to 78% moisture because they do internal testing themselves on their food to get percentages of phosphorus, magnesium and calcium to see how it will stack up with wet food and preventing urinary problems or kidney problems. Their results were that specific gravity of their food equals less that most wet food in that it is somewhere around 1.020 and wet food is like 1.030 with the higher carb foods 1.050 and higher. They do tests and receive phone calls that back up their claims on no cat being dehydrated nor having crystals or kidney problems due to higher phosphorus. In addition, the pH is normal in that the food isn't too alkaline or acidic to cause problems either. Bottom line, I ordered more food and will be patience and persistent with it and see how it works. I know some lady on here referred me to a spreadsheet because some woman was feeding her cat Evo and then bought YAZC and it got her cat into remission and was healthier. So I don't think their food is terrible as probably the best dry food out there. Catinfo I know says to feed either Evo or YA if you must feed dry food. Everyone out there is a critic and has their own opinions on what we should or should not feed our cats just like telling humans what they should or shouldn't eat. I wouldn't put faith into this food if I felt like they were just liars and just trying to sell their products and even my GF feels the same way and she can spot people who are liars. If this food turns out to be exact opposite(which I pray not) then what it is meant to do then they'll be hearing from me and I'll be upset. I know most on here use wet food as the cure food but with my cats, they don't eat much of it and Pooper's numbers do not show much downward trends when he was eating it for over a month. If this turns some of you away from helping me because I go against the wet food debate right now then so be it but I just think YA wouldn't be selling this food if their claims were false and they'd probably be receiving emails about sueing if that were the case but they don't so something must be working. I just have to be more patient and allow more time with both insulin and the food since Pooper's has a very stubborn body and takes after his daddy.
 
I'm not sure if you are looking for advice, or support. Maybe we're all assuming you are looking for some help, when really you're just looking for reassurance. Feel free to let us know if that's the case. You wouldn't be the only one who has felt that way, and we'll do our best to respect your wishes (unless we see you doing something dangerous, then all bets are off!).

So, it sounds like you have reached some decisions: keep the diet the same and restart with the 2u dose. Ok, that gives us all something to work with :)

If you want advice for moving forward from here, mine would be to study the SLGS method and implement it, and then stick to it. BUT you also need to test for ketones since you have reduced his dose. Any signs of ketones, check here because you might have to speed things up. Otherwise go slow and allow the insulin to do its job.

If you're looking for support, then I'll just say hang in there. We're all stressed at the beginning, but it gets better. Otherwise I wouldn't have adopted two more diabetic cats after the first one! Trust me, I NEVER would have expected that when I was first dealing with Lucy, but it got much much easier once I started to understand the insulin instead of just shooting it.
 
rbrumbaugh82 said:
Well he does Purr when I feed him and rub him. He seems alert but sleeps more than plenty but I know a lot of cats do sleep alot.
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I have the laziest cats in the world - they go from one sleeping place to another all day. Their exercise consists of a mad 'half-hour' when they chase around the house, grabbing toys and whacking each other - usually while I'm trying to sleep. Days when they're more active are few and far between. If sleeping is his thing, it's quite likely just his personality - out of 6 cats in total in this house, one is active a lot of the day, one spends a lot of time outside and the other 4 do very little most of the time except sleep or eat. But they're happy and it sounds as though Poopers is too. :)
 
I couldn't agree with Libby more. You don't have to justify to us why you want to feed YAZC. I, personally, don't put a lot of stock in what 99% of pet food manufacturers say about their pet food but our choices are to feed the food or make it ourselves.

So it would be great if you'd just tell us your goals and we'll go from there. If it's support, we're with you. If you'd like dosing advice, etc, using SLGS, we'll help with the understanding that you want to keep him on the YAZC diet. I'd probably add both in my signature line; we have a lot of members and so it helps us remember who is doing SLGS and who is doing TR protocol.
 
rbrumbaugh82 said:
I just have to be more patient and allow more time with both insulin and the food since Pooper's has a very stubborn body and takes after his daddy.
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I think that this is probably the key - and the folks on this board will be sure to give you plenty of support and reminders to be patient and let the depot build up before trying to increase again if you post regularly :)
 
If you look at the kitty on my avatar you are looking at a kitty that went from 4U to off insulin in 3 weeks. How? I removed the kibble (hard food) from my house. I also have another kitty Jack who is 19 pounds and diabetic. He is being reduced tonight to 1U and he to has been off insulin as well for 3 years. Please if you want to help your kitty remove the kibble test a lot when you do and pick a protocol. I am on tight regulation protocol but you may prefer the slow and go protocol. Look at the sticky notes at the top of the forum. You are being followed by some great women that saved my Scooter and they will help you to. Your not alone and you are doing GREAT!
 
Linda and Scooter & Jack said:
If you look at the kitty on my avatar you are looking at a kitty that went from 4U to off insulin in 3 weeks. How? I removed the kibble (hard food) from my house. I also have another kitty Jack who is 19 pounds and diabetic. He is being reduced tonight to 1U and he to has been off insulin as well for 3 years. Please if you want to help your kitty remove the kibble test a lot when you do and pick a protocol. I am on tight regulation protocol but you may prefer the slow and go protocol. Look at the sticky notes at the top of the forum. You are being followed by some great women that saved my Scooter and they will help you to. Your not alone and you are doing GREAT!
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Well the wet diet doesn't seem to have owrked for me. I know I have different cats compared to everyone else. I was feeding him FF for well over a month and his numbers were doing the same as they are now on dry. The dry food I am feeding isn't like dry food you buy anywhere else. Even like with Evo, this one has less carb than most wet food. Pooper's drinks plenty of water too. Its just hard to explain to people but I will figure things out sonemday
 
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