What food?

My cat just got diagnosed with diabetes a few days ago. A few years ago he had bladder stones and I switched to this Medical urinary food (dry). He was on that, but now, after I asked, the vet people suggested a low glucose weight loss food. It has 15% carbs, which is not what the advice on this site is. The old one must have had even more carbs, because my cat decreased urination by 50% at least as soon as he started this food. Basically I want the food to be one that will prevent urinary stones and also be good for diabetic cats. I blindly listened before to vets and now am thinking I can't just blindly listen to people whose profit comes from an animal becoming or staying sick even though I am not saying people in vet offices are unethical. I was thinking of phoning the wellness cat food people and seeing if they have a diet good for diabetic cats and those who have had stones (my cat went through a very ugly time with the surgery for the stones. He became totally blind for a time with the anaesthesia, was allergic to the stitching material and was swollen for weeks. They said if the swelling didn't go down they would have to re-operate). Also I feel bad because I got the insulin and needles but have decided to wait a day. I am scared and waiting for my brother to help me make sure I leave no air bubbles. Plus my cat eats 4 times a day and I just want a day to change him to twice a day as the vet said. He does not like being switched like this and was scrounging around even looking for crumbs under the table, trying to open cupboards and basically I am staying up all night in case he does something weird and hurts himself in the hunt for food. Am I harming him waiting a day? If anyone can address any of my concerns, I will be grateful.Thanks, G.

 

We were all really worried when we got the diagnosis, but we and our cats survived and we can help you do the same.

Here is a website by a vet specifically about urinary issues and diet.

http://www.catinfo.org/?link=urinarytracthealth

She is an ardent advocate of wet low carb food and makes an excellent case for why it is best.

Most people here feed more than twice daily. We think it supports the pancreas to have small, frequent meals. And unregulated diabetics are literally starving as their bodies aren't processing the food well. So we would encourage you to feed a little more and more often.

BUT wet low carb food can drastically lower insulin requirements (100 points overnight in our cat when we switched from dry to wet) so we urge you to be testing at home first. We test our cats just like we would ourselves and our kids. We've taught hundreds of people how and would love to help you learn.

Please continue to do research and ask questions. Take a deep breath and let us help.

 

Try the Friskies Special Diet canned food - protein OK, intended to maintain urinary tract health.

 

Thank you so much, Sue and Oliver, for your response. G.

 

Thank you so much, BJM, for suggesting the food. G.

 

Hi G and welcome to you and your cat. What are your names?

No, you are not harming your cat by waiting a day or even longer to start the insulin. In fact, we highly recommend a diet change first before starting any insulin. Of course, there are circumstances such as high ketones or DKA (diabetic ketoacidosis) symptoms that would indicate immediate use of insulin. If your cat does not have these conditions, you are just fine waiting to give the insulin.

You could try the diet change for a week or so, see how your kitties BG (blood glucose) is doing, and then maybe start the insulin.

Do you have a meter so you can home test the BG? We have shown many people how to do this over the internet. If you tell us where you live, we can give country specific advice.

Which specific low glucose weight loss food did your vet recommend?

 

Hi Deb and Wink,

My name is Gurmit and my cat's name is Boongie. The food the vet's office suggested (I say office because I bought the topic up to a receptionist while the tests were still being done) and she suggested a food after looking at the contents of the old one. The doc later approved it) is Hill's low fat, glucose management. It did really reduce the urinating and excessive drinking of water right away, but it does have a 15% carbohydrate content. I live in British Columbia, Canada and would love any advice I can get about a good glucose meter to use. My vet said I can go to a pharmacy and get one meant for humans. I appreciate all the support I am getting from you and the other folks who have and will post. Thanks. Gurmit

 

Unfortunately, I just found out that the food you suggested, BJM, is not carried in Canada. I contacted several pet stores and grocery stores and then called a rep from Purina in Ontario. I guess will have to keep looking for something that can be found here that is still a quality product. The link you provided is quite informative. Gurmit

 

Hi Gurmit! I just wanted to say hi since you are in Canada too . . . I'm way out in Winnipeg but there aren't that many Canadians here so it still makes us neighbors I'm glad you found this site; the advice and information here will help Boongie feel better soon.

As to glucose meters, the important thing to keep in mind is the ongoing cost of strips. Americans have much cheaper options than Canadians, unfortunately. Most times the meter will even be free at the pharmacy when you buy 100 strips, so the cost of the meter is irrelevant. Obviously you need something right away, so do get one locally for now. You'll want something that uses as little blood as possible to make it easier to test, and take into account the cost of the strips (I've found Safeway often has pretty good sales on Canadian brands, a different brand every week).

In the future you might want to consider some cross-border shopping if you live close enough to the US to make that practical. The cheapest one in the States is called the Relion Prime meter. It's available only at American Walmarts, and it's only $9 for 50 strips. Compare that to the $75 regular price that we pay for 100 strips of anything available in Canada, and it really makes sense to cross the border and stock up!

Also you'll notice that the numbers you get on a Canadian meter are not the same as most people use here - like imperial and metric, the US is still using an older measure. You have to multiply our numbers by 18 to get the American ones - but there is a spreadsheet that can be downloaded here where you just put in the Canadian numbers and it automatically converts them to American numbers so everyone is happy. Just ask for help when you're ready to set up the spreadsheet - it will be a big help for you to keep track of the results and for others to help with dosing by looking at the numbers you're getting.

Again, a big WELCOME . . . you're in the best place you could be, and before you know it you'll be a pro at all of this!

 

Hi Gurmit and sugardude Boongie! Thanks for introducing yourself.

Is that the Hill's M/D you are talking about? It's ok for now, but we do recommend that you try to feed <10% carbs, preferably <8% carbs.

Is Boongie eating the dry food version of the Hill's or the canned/wet food version? Often, the wet food is lower carb than the dry. Also, having the extra water content in the wet food is a big help for any urinary tract issues. I even add extra water to the canned food, until the food is somewhere between applesauce and soup consistency.

If Boongie is used to eating 4 times a day, I recommend staying with that feeding schedule. It helps to not load the cats system with too much food at once. It gives better control and more even BG (blood glucose) levels if you can spread the food out into mini-meals. Less stress on the pancreas to produce more insulin than it is able to at one time. My sugardude Wink gets fed 4 times a day with usually a snack of freeze dried chicken like Pure Bites or Halo Liv-a-little treats.

Darn on the unavailability of the Friskies Special Diet cat foods in Canada! :evil: I know many people including me, feed the Fancy Feast classic pates. Those are usually low carb, <6%. Wellness grain free foods are another good low carb choice. It's possible, that by changing Boongie to an even lower carb food than the one the vet office receptionist told you about, that Boongie may not need insulin at all. I think it's worth a try.

Here is a food chart with most of the canned/wet foods available in the US and Canada. Look in the 3rd column of numbers, under calorie %, for foods that are less than 10% carbs, preferably <8%.

 

Amy and Papaya, thanks for the support and welcome. I am happy to meet a fellow Canadian. I think I will get my passport renewed after all (it has been about 20 years) for then going over the border will become feasible. Cheers, Gurmit

 

Hi Deb and Wink,

The Hill's food is canned. I knew from this website not to go for the dry one. It says W/D and prescription diet on the can. Boongie refused to eat more than his usual serving though I tried the 12 hour thing, though I won't expose him to such an ordeal again. He ate his usual amount and then within an hour ate the rest. Right after he ate he went into his bed and peacefully went to sleep. I was told to give him 1 can of that daily. it is 5.5 oz. He is a little over 15 pounds right now.

Thanks so much for all the advice.

Gurmit

 

hi Gurmit and Boongie! welcome! you've found the best site there is for diabetic cats. people here know feline diabetes inside and out - and we'll be happy to teach you what you need to know to help Boongie be as healthy as possible.

There are a couple of members in BC - Wendy (and Neko) posts all the time in the Lantus/Lev Tight Regulation Insulin Support Group. Look for a post titled for "Neko". I'll send her a message as well. She may be able to help you find supplies and food that are local for you.

getting Boongie's diet switched to a low carb canned food and getting a human meter to test his blood sugar with are the first priorities. I second the comment about the cost of strips - the cost of the meter is unimportant - you'll end up testing several times a day and you want affordable strips.

When you do get a prescription for insulin - Lantus and Levemir are the two that last the longest in a cat's body - which is very important. Prozinc is another good one, although it doesn't last quite as long as the L insulins. Long-lasting is important because cats have a faster-than-humans or dogs metabolism and with the insulin lasting longer, it helps flatten out the highs and lows of the blood sugar. Don't get any insulin other than one of those 3 - these are the best for cats.

Keep asking questions. We've all been in your shoes, worried about our cats and needing help figuring out what to do to help them best.

julie

 

Hi Gurmit from a fellow British Columbian. I cross border shop for my strips. The Walmart in Bellingham is the closest to me. Or you can get strips sent to a US post box in either Blaine or Point Roberts. But I also have a backup meter (Bayer Contour) in case I can't get strips from the US. You can also get an enhanced driver's license that lets you go across the border, a bit cheaper than a passport. When you are looking for a meter at first, you want one that needs just a small drop of blood, and has cheap strips. London Drugs or Canadian Superstore seem to be the best price for diabetic supplies here. There is a review of blood glucose meters here. Depending on where you live, if you are in the Vancouver area, I'd be up for a road trip to show you how to blood test once you have supplies.

I also have a concern about food for a cat with crystals. My second non diabetic cat gets crystals, so I have to get a food that both can eat. My vet recommended raw food which is what they both get. However, I've since learned that just adding lots of water to a good low carb low phosphorus wet food probably would have worked as well. Wellness Chicken or Turkey are two good options available in most pet food stores here. If you have a Tisol near you, I think they have the best prices on Wellness. The tall cans are the most cost effective.

We do not need prescriptions for Lantus or Levemir insulin here, you can buy it straight from the pharmacy. Just say you are getting it for your cat. You want to buy a 5 pack of cartridges. Again, Superstore seems to be the best pricing for Lantus. I am now on Levemir but haven't found much price difference between stores. I'm not sure you can even get Prozinc in Canada.

Feel free to keep asking question. I was in the middle of writing this when I noticed Julie had also replied to you. :lol: If you do want me to come and help, send me a PM. Under the picture of my kitty, there is a PM symbol, just click on that.

 

Hello from another Canadian!

I use the bayer contour meter and buy the strips on ebay from the US, including shipping.. for half the price of Shoppers. Although Shoppers gives you points.

What kind of insulin did you buy and what size needles?

If you shoot into the tent, at a 45 degree angle to the body, then you don't need to worry about a very small air bubble - although do your best to get rid of it all. heres tips on how (assuming you have lantus) : http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=151

Wendy

 

The Hill's W/D canned food is 25% carbs, so really not very good for a diabetic cat. If I were you, I'd really try another lower carb food option like the Wellness that Wendy & Neko suggested. You might end up not needing to buy insulin, and have yourself a diet controlled kitty.

 

Hi Deb and Wink,

Yeah I found out too that the food the clinic gave me because my cat is diabetic is certainly not just 15% carbs. You gave me a link to a chart for the nutritional contents of cat foods, and in an article on urinary disease written by the woman who created the chart, the food I was given has 29% carbs. I thought 15% for some reason and was pissed when I saw 29%, I don't know why I thought 15% before. Anyway I went today and got a bunch of Wellness cans, the turkey kind. The carb content is 6% and the phosphorus content1.04 according to that chart. The phosphorus content is higher than the Hills and the Urinary prescription food (theirs was like .7) I had Boongie on before ,but that lady who created the chart said that it can be from 1-1.2 and is still ok for urinary health. The Wellness food also costs significantly less than the Hills food, something like half. I don't have a car, so the outing to get the food took me hours and on the way back I stopped at a Safeway and got a glucose meter too, a freestyle Freedom Lite that only needs a tiny amount of blood. I started feeding the Wellness food to Boongie already. Normally I believe in taking several days to change foods but I almost added 50% of Wellness because I figure the sooner the high carb stuff goes the better. Boonge didn't mind eating it at all. Now that I have the food and meter, I have to figure out more about insulin. I have something called Caninsulin sitting in my fridge. I am supposed to give 2 units twice daily I believe. Thanks so much for the concern and advice.

 

Hi Wendy and Tiggy,

It is so nice to hear from you. The insulin I got is something from the vet called Caninsulin. I didn't start using it yet for I wanted to change the food first. The needles I got with it are these needles called Caninsulin Syringes, these scary looking things (I never knew I was such a chicken until now). I am supposed to give 2 units twice a day. I started switching my cat to the new food which has a much lower carb content than what I bought from the vet's office in the interest of helping my cat with diabetes. I plan to start the insulin soon but after further research starting from what people have been advising. Thanks for writing, Gurmit

 

Good start on getting the Wellness. I'm glad Boongie likes it. I would recommend switching him to the low carb food, and getting learning to do blood testing before starting insulin. As Deb says, you may not need to start insulin if Boongie reacts well to the lower carbs.

Caninsulin is not the best insulin for cats. In fact, it's an insulin suited for dogs, which is why the name (canine = dogs). But it's unfortunately what a lot of the old school vets here prescribe. That's what we were started on. It does not last long enough in most cats and didn't on mine, so we switched to Lantus. Here is a primer on Caninsulin if you wish to use it. I would recommend you start on just one unit first. Two units is a lot to start on, especially if you are changing food.

The remission rates for cats is much higher for Lantus and Levemir and it's a much gentler insulin. And the syringes are smaller too.

 

Wendy and Tiggy,

I didn't tell you the size of the needles as you asked. It says 1/2 CC , 29 Ga x 1/2. I guess the 29 Ga refers to the thickness of the needle.
Gurmit

 

Hi Wendy and Neko,

I don't think I will use the caninsulin and I would rather use 1 unit of anything at first too and gradually raise it if it needs raising. I know it is all guesswork anyway on the part of the vet as he asked me to come in 3 weeks to see if Boongie needs a higher or lower dosage. My vet is a nice fellow and means well I am sure, but there are just so many factors in everything and it is good to find out more. One just wonders how long a time vets study feline diabetes for in vet school, a day, a week or is it just a part of a rushed lecture before finals. Anyway, my biggest hope is that Boongie won't even need insulin with this new food. Thanks so much for responding and telling me more about caninsulin. Gurmit

 

A really good question for your vet is to ask how many diabetic cats they have in their practice and how many have gone into remission. Vets have to know a lot about many different conditions and diseases for multiple types of animals. It's hard to be an expert at all topics. But people here have been living diabetes 24 hours a day for years. I once thought about switching to a vet I knew who had had a diabetic cat herself, and then I found out it had died because of a hypo. So I stayed with my vet, because she is willing to learn and work with me.

 

yes, the ones willing to learn and work with a person are the best. The old authoritarian ways, no matter in what profession, are just not too suitable anymore, especially with the internet.

 

This is a nice article on Diabetes Management Guidelines for Dogs and Cats, published back in June 2010 in a veterinary journal. It's also on the AAHA (American Animal Hospital Association) website in PDF format at aahanet.org here - https://www.aahanet.org/Library/DiabetesMgmt.aspx

It's chock full of good information on treating diabetes. I printed out a couple of copies when I found it, one for me, one for my vet, one for the cat shelter that I foster for.

Now that you have the meter, you may want to review these tips and tricks for home testing. I think two key tips are to always give your cat a treat, successful test or not and to warm the ear or rub it to get the blood flowing.

Here's hoping that Boongie takes to the ear pokies ok. It takes time to get good at it, and to get enough blood.

Be sure to ask any questions or let us know if you are having any problems.

With the diet change, Boongie's BG (blood glucose) is likely to have dropped much lower than it was at the vets. Please test before you give any insulin and do not shoot if the BG is <200 on that human glucometer you got. I still think that the diet change for a bit of time, as long as Boongie is not showing any signs of ketones, that you may see even more improvement. Be sure to test the urine at least daily with the ketostix to make sure Boongie is not developing any ketones.

 

Hi Deb, I completely made the switch tonight with the low carb food. He seems to have taken to it in spite of the very fast switch after increases over just 4 meals. I tried testing his blood. I first practiced on myself a couple of times. I poked him but could find no blood and then did it again. There were two tiny drops then . The lancets were 33 gauge. He didn't like it much. I decided not to poke him a third time tonight, but will try again in the morning. My mom will help me and we will warm his ear. I did rub it with my fingers a few times but I guess it wasn't enough. His ear is so thin!!!! Thanks again for the good help. Gurmit

 

Deb and Wink and Wendy and Neko, I managed to test his glucose with the meter. I tried a few times and got no blood or very little. Then I tried with the lancets that came with the glucose meter (they are thicker than the ultrafine ones) after warming his ear again. He got tested 5 hours and a half hours after his last meal, and I fed him right after taking the reading. His reading in Canadian numbers was 3.6. Amy and Papaya said they get multiplied by 18 to get the American numbers, so that is 64.8 (65 on a conversion chart). That is certainly under 200. I am not going to test him until later today (it is 2:17 am here) and maybe an hour after he eats to see what that reading will be. I think the meter is accurate. It gave me 6.6 which is 115.2 in American numbers shortly after I had eaten some diet junk food. I noticed he did not go urinate right away after eating this food (even though the Hill's one was still getting mixed in, in rapidly decreasing proportion,s until his last feeding on Thursday). I don't have the urine testing strips but can get them tomorrow. Are they necessary if the numbers stay low? Until I read your post all I thought I would need was the blood glucose testing kit, insulin, and to watch for signs of too many ketones like vomiting, a fruity breath, etc. Anyway, I am so glad I put him on this food. I noticed he was not going to urinate right after eating today as he was before even though I mix water in it. I hope the poor guy won't need any insulin. Gurmit

 

Welcome to the Vampire Club!

Yes, the lancets with smaller numbers actually have a bigger pin for pricking. They are often labeled "For alternate site testing". Those 33 gauge ones that you have will be harder to use for the first couple of weeks. Stick with the ones with the bigger pin for now.

Wow! A 3.6 at +5.5 hours and still not on any insulin. That's fantastic news! That is a normal, non-diabetic reading. You may wind up with a cat that does not need insulin, the diet change to the low carb food may be enough. Vet stress can raise the numbers at the vet office, up to 180 points mg/dL (10 points higher mmol/L). Here's hoping the vet stress was at least part of what was raising your cat's BG numbers.

Here are some glucose reference ranges that member BJM put together, to help you see what some of the numbers mean.

 

Thats great you are testing but unfortunately those freestyle meters aren't that great for cats - they tend to underestimate the numbers when the cat is over 200 so you get a false sense of how well the cat is doing! I learned the hard way! Saying that though it does sound like your cat is under 200 so I don't know if you need to worry yet. The food change could already be taking an effect!

I would keep measuring and if he stays under 7.2 for two weeks then he is in remission

let us know!

Wendy

 

Deb and Wendy, I tested him again and he was at 56.8, and I tested him 25 minutes after eating. 2 hours after eating he was at 65. I have to deal with an ear infection too. That was why he got tested for diabetes for he had the problem a couple of times before too. The other times it went away fast, but this time it is still there though improved. I gave the meds for it for a week, and the vet told me two more days.I don't know why, but I am scared if I give that medicine the glucose numbers may go up. However, I need to pay attention to the ears too. Wendy, is there a better meter for cats in your experience?

Gurmit

 

Whenever there is another medical condition which must be treated, even if it elevates the glucose, you treat that condition. The insulin, if needed or currently being used, can be adjusted around the treatment for the other condition.

 

Ear infections can cause raised blood sugar so I would treat the infection - what is the medication the vet gave you? Does it have steroids in it? i.e. prednisone? Is it oral or ear drops?

If you read back the posts above you will see the meter I recommend - might be an idea if you read back anyway in case you missed other stuff.. it can be overwhelming at first as we tend to give a lot of info at once but here it is again

Wendy

PS those are great blood numbers!

 

Hi Wendy,

He has ear drops, Aurizon. His ears do seem to be better today, much less shaking of the head and stuff. There never was a foul smell or anything though I could see some earwax. I am going to look into natural stuff too like organic apple cider vinegar as a cleanser. Hopefully they will be totally fine very soon. I have been using the free style lite still making sure the blood drops are bigger and testing myself right after too. One reason why I chose this is because the pharmacist at Safeway said it was as good as the others they routinely recommend and not much blood is needed. As I am very new to this and have had trouble getting blood drops to form though I am better, still room for improvement is there. He loves the pure bites he gets afterwards and today gave me hardly any trouble though I am sure he doesn't love being poked. The highest he has been is 4.4, so I am happy with the numbers. This meter you suggest, what are the drop sizes needed? When my dad comes to visit, he is going to take me to the U.S. and I can buy another meter there too. My sister went the other day and offered to get me one, but I told her I had to look into it some more. I'm one of those folks who is a little paranoid. Like I had to buy a new bathroom scale for myself and wasn't sure if it was accurate and so got my sister to bring hers over when she came to visit just to see if they gave at least similar readings .Thanks for the support. Gurmit

 

I googled it and it doesn't sound like those drops have steroids in them so they should be good.

Problem with the freestyle lite is that it underestimates the numbers and is inaccurate whenever you see a number over 7 but your numbers are lower than that right now so I wouldn't worry about a new meter yet. The Bayer unfortunately needs a bit of a bigger drop size but the new "next" kind has this thing called second sampling so if you don't get enough first time you can reuse the strip. If your dad takes you to the US you'd be better getting a Relion confirm or micro and stock up on strips. Lots cheaper and same amount of blood as the freestyle. The relion confirm and micro are very popular on the site. They are only sold at walmart so look at them on walmart.com (US)

Try a smear of polysporin ointment with pain relief before you test - it will help the blood well up.

Wendy

 

hi Gurmit! sorry i somehow never saw you'ld reposted. you've gotten lots of good help, though!

i started with the Freestyle Lite - loved it. Takes a tiny bit of blood and the whole thing works great. I did eventually switch when we discovered here that it wasn't measuring the high numbers accurately. However, I'm with Wendy, as long as you're measuring lower numbers, you're probably fine. The difference between it and other meters in the lower range isn't significant, it's in the higher numbers (over 200-300ish) that it diverges from other meters. It sounds like you may end up with a diet-controlled kitty - let's hope so.

Right now are you giving any insulin? I'm thinking not. If not, and your numbers are staying under 120 on the US scale, those are normal numbers. Cats have the unique ability to have their pancreas heal and by removing the heavy carb load that Boongie was getting before and treating his infection, his pancreas may be healing and producing insulin again.

When you test, make sure you do it at least 2 hrs after he last ate. What would be a great "test" of whether or not his pancreas is working is if you can test, feed immediately, wait about an hour and retest. Then wait about 2 hrs more (so a total of 3 hrs after feeding) and retest again. So 3 tests, one before eating, one an hour later, one 3 hrs after eating.

If you wouldn't mind doing that, we'd be able to let you know if it shows that his pancreas is working.

 

Thanks Julie. I was wondering about the best times to test him in relation to feeding. I do note down when he last ate. I've tried testing him right before feeding, 2 hours after feeding, half an hour, and 3 hours but it varies each day. Today was his highest 4.6 or 82.8 in American numbers, but I think he got a little nervous for I was having trouble with the blood drop forming and had to try a few times. He was happy for the first poke especially after I repeated the word "treat." I got a lancet and ripped open a test strip after it was used to see what it looked like inside and I could see blood going down these black things.

Boongie has gained some weight since he was at the vet on Dec 2. He was about 15.1 pounds (he went to that from 16.3 in the week it took after I took him in for an ear appointment and a couple more tests). At the end of August he was 17.5. Anyway he is 15.8 now it seems. However, when he was 15.1 he was dehydrated and stuff I know and it was not healthy weight loss. I think maybe this is a positive sign along with the other symptoms of not drinking water like crazy. He has an appetite as regular as clockwork still (wants food every 3 hours almost literally, I guess he has an internal clock. The vet told me every 12 hours which I just followed one time and felt like it was torture for him. I feel compelled to feed him every 3 hours now for I caught him eating a piece of cardboard from a scratcher when I made him wait and am scared he might start other habits like that. My sister said to gradually increase the times by 15 minutes until he gets comfortable with every 6 hours, which I have started. If I am not home my mom feeds him when I tell her. I weigh the food and make sure he doesn't get more than 5.5- 6 ounces over 24 hours The vet's office suggested a 5.5 ounce can a day. I've read some cats eat a lot after losing weight from diabetes and keeping them hungry is not beneficial). I hope he will lose weight due to being on a low carb diet and of course I will try exercising him more. It is a challenge to get him to exercise. He gets excited for a bit by a ribbon and does some jumping around on counters, my dresser, etc. I don't send him outside at all for there are coyotes in my neighbourhood and packs of raccoons wondering around the house at night and even during the day sometimes. I've ordered a remote control mouse for him and hopefully that will be really fun for him. I've been pitying him and got somewhat depressed myself but the exercise will start for I don't want weight gain to make the numbers higher.

I thank you so much for writing with such invaluable info. I will test as you said and see what happens. By the way, have you heard of colloidal silver as an earwash for cats? Do you know if it is just quackery or something that actually is helpful? It is touted as a great product all over the internet but there are conflicting reports too. I don't really trust those who try to sell a product and wax eloquent about its advantages, but I do trust ordinary people who have nothing to financially gain by a product. Thanks again, Gurmit

 

Hi Gurmit!

I got your pm about him being around 50 -80 when you are testing him. I think you might have gotten Boongie diet-controlled. Everything under 120 is a normal, non-diabetic number. As long as you are seeing these kinds of numbers you don't want to start insulin.

i don't know anything about colloidal silver. I've heard of it, but that's all. Exercise of any kind is good - you can tie cord on the end of a stick and get him to jump and chase it. just don't let him eat the cord!~!~

If he's not getting insulin and his blood sugar is staying in these good ranges, it's best if he eats small meals around the clock. the advice to give food every 12 hours would go with giving insulin. We fed punkin when we gave him his shot and again 3 hrs later, so he did go 9 hrs without a meal, although i gave him bits of boiled chicken as treats when he was poked. The vet would've advised that so that he was getting food (carbs) when the insulin was strongest and able to deal with it. But as you aren't giving insulin (right?) then you want to spread the food out around the clock so that Boongie's healing pancreas isn't getting too much of a load at a time. small frequent meals are best. Many people with diet-controlled cats feed about every 3 hrs.

The advice we tell people when their cats have become diet-controlled is to keep testing every day for the next couple of weeks, then once a week or once every 2 weeks for the rest of his life. Be vigilant about this. Never any high carb or dry food - he needs low carb canned for the rest of his life as well. No steroids unless it's absolutely essential - they can throw a cat into diabetes. avoid any medications that contain sugar as well. Remember that he is still diabetic, you have just gotten him diet-controlled.

about his weight - if he needs to lose weight it must be done very slowly. cats can have their liver clog with fat if it's too quickly. you're on the right track with measuring it. holding his weight stable or only a very slow weight loss is great.

congratulations! you and Boongie appear to be very lucky. Know we're here if you need us.

 

I started feeding Wellness canned after my sugarboy Tink was diagnosed in October. I didnt necessarily pick it because it was the best option (though I am very comfortable with it, it's a quality food that I used in the past as well), but because it's the one type he will consistently eat. He was a dry food junkie. He's currently not using insulin as he's reasonably well regulated with the change from dry to wet food - though we're still working on getting him into true remission.

I also have a cat who gets crystals. He had them a few years ago, and recently when I switched to what I thought was a lower-carb food (grain free kibble), he got blocked up again. We did the Hills a/d for 6 days, to clear the crystals - but now he's also been eating Wellness (as have all 4 of my cats) for the past week or so and is continuing to do well.

In researching the best food for both diabetics and crystal-prone cats, it seems most of the same recommendations were made (which was a relief - I was afraid I'd wind up with several different diet requirements). WATER being one of the most important, and making canned food strongly preferred over dry for both conditions. Low carb was another... and for crystals they also want low phosphorus content. Wellness seems to fit the bill in all of these areas (there might be foods with lower content, but it's in the acceptable range), and it's one of the cheaper (but not cheap!) GOOD foods out there (I've always been anti-byproduct, anti-corn, etc - used to feed "human grade" stuff that's hard to do with 4 cats and 3 dogs). I'm in the US, but locally I can get Wellness for 2.79 - and it's $31.49 for 12 cans through wag.com (and sometimes they offer x% off) - these are the big 12.5oz cans. Shipping is free over $50, so I save a little money and it's a lot more convenient. Hoping to find an even cheaper online retailer, but no luck so far.

 

Hi JenM,

I was really glad to find this Wellness food. someone recommended a special diet Friskie, I think chicken. However, I looked for that and then phoned a representative of the company and they told me it is an American product. There was something else I thought was good with the numbers going from a food chart people gave me links for and that was Merrick food. The cowboy cookout type has a 6% carb rate and a 0.84% phosphorus rate. Their best (though I think this may no longer sell) was BG Beef. It was 1% carb and 0.79% phosphorus. They only had dried Merrick food at the pet store, plus I don't think I would get beef for cats for I have never heard of cats killing cows and eating them in the wild whereas chickens and turkeys are still birds even if big ones (I guess some cats would be able to kill the chickens anyway). I put a lot of water in the wellness food because of the stones and hopefully that will do the trick for our cats. I sometimes see chunks of stuff that may be sweet potato or apple or something and big parts of blueberries in the wellness food and just remove them. I doubt it will make it lower carb, at least not by much, but anything on the right path is good I guess. Nice talking to you. Gurmit

 

Hi Julie,

Thanks. I sure hope that he will be a diet controlled cat. So far I haven't given him any insulin. Right now the numbers are great, but one never knows, so I do plan on continuing to test him. . I won't try to change his eating times if it is normal for cats not on insulin to eat around the clock. He sometimes holds on for 4 hours during the day, but usually it is 3 hours. Sometimes it is even 2.5, though that seems to be stopping. I just give him very small amounts so it isn't more than 5.5 -6 ounces over 24 hours (I actually weigh it). I read an article by Dr. Lisa Peirson (I probably butchered her name) linked from the site that talked about not making a diabetic cat lose too much weight at once, so that is why I'm careful. This site has just been so great and everyone on it too. One thing I am really pleased about lately is Boongie seems to have lost most of the dandruff he had with the Wellness food. I understand it is a symptom of diabetes but he had a problem with it even before due to the special food he was on for the urinary issues, and it had just gotten worse with the diabetes. I tested him today as you said and his readings were 3.1, 3.3, and then 2.3 (that seemed really low but then I found some cats can go that low. He was certainly really relaxed sitting in my lap waiting for me to do the poking so he could get the treat. I found a good way to get him to exercise. I had some string, a fairly thick string and I was able to tie it around a pure bite treat. That sure got him moving. I hope the remote controlled mouse will be fun too. Thanks for giving me great info again. Gurmit

 

Julie, sorry I didn't convert those readings into the American readings, but basically they went from 41.4-59.4. Gurmit

 

those are PERFECT non-diabetic cat readings!!! Woot!

you don't want to pick out the chunks of things from the Wellness. they add those fruits and veggies for specific vitamins, so if Boongie will eat them, they're good for him.

I did give my cat the Merrick's Before Grain beef, but he didn't really like it. Dr. Lisa's site is the best around about the food. I know it can be tough to find brands in other countries - most of what we know about here is US, although we have a lot of Canadian members too. Sounds like you're doing great with all of it. Keep on!

 

Normal cats are 40-130 (2.2-7.2) so those numbers are perfect. Its been a week of numbers in that range now right? One more week and he is officially a diet controlled diabetic

Wendy

 

Dandruff flakes! I remember those giant flakes of dandruff, the size of a quarter, on Wink at the beginning of our journey together. Since the switch to canned food, and getting him off insulin, the dandruff disappeared, the bald patches grew back, the neuropathy is gone, he plays and jumps and climbs, his fur is soft, silky and shiny now! :shock: Hard to believe it's the same cat.

Hope you see the same type of wonderful improvements in Gurmit as time goes on.

 

Hi Julie, I read your posting and stopped picking out the chunks of apple and stuff.

 

Hi Wendy and Deb, one more day for the number for it to be official. I'm keeping my fingers crossed for the readings to be normal. I plan to test him for a month as Julie advised and weekly after, but it is still great to almost have almost reached the two week testing milestone people mention.I was really happy today for he was really playful today like he used to be, played with a plastic straw I threw at him for quite while, chased after paper balls I rolled up, etc. I guess it takes the body a while to recuperate from such a thing. I hope your cats continue to do well too. They are like family members and it just is so painful to watch them when they are suffering. Gurmit

 

Hi,

Quickly, I am feeding a recently diagnosed diabetic cat Wellness Grain Free canned Turkey. He has been on that for at least 5 days now. At first his BG came down to 150 and lower while eating that, and with insulin. They took him off insulin for one entire day. They fed him the Wellness. His BG was 400 this morning, even after receiving .05 of glargine around midnight last night.

Wellness Turkey has sweet potatoes and carrots in it. Should I be worried about this spiking his BG? I read on Dr. Lisa Pierson's food charts that this flavor has only 4% carbs. I thought I was on the right track.. I just want to cry... The vets are pushing me towards their Hilll's brand, saying perhaps Rocky needs the extra fiber in his diet and that is why his BG is not being regulated very well. (They have been doing the monitoring for over 7 days now)

Is there a different brand of wet food that I should feed him, or should I just stick with this Wellness Grain Free canned Turkey until his BG levels level out?

I'm new here. It's a long story, but I'm starting my own non-profit cat rescue, "Kitty Karma Refuge," and one of the cats I saved has developed diabetes while under my friend's care. This totally tame, around 6 year old cat, went from eating field mice to a Venti sized Starbucks cup of Meow Mix kibble and canned (corn meal).

I took care of Rocky when my friend went on vacation. She told me that 3 weeks prior he had started peeing profusely. He wasn't peeing too much for me, but he didn't eat very much either. On the 3rd day of watching him I took him to the vet where he had a BG of 350 and DKA. I had him immediately hospitalized.

Rocky has now been in the hospital for over a week. The DKA is gone. He is no longer on the IV drip for re hydration.

I'm going to be posting a "Rocky's Fund" page shortly on the internet to see if I can get help to pay for his care as he is a rescue kitty who deserves to live!! I have used all of my own money to pay for his care so far, and I am going broke.

Thank you for any help, advise you can give me about the food choice ASAP. Don't worry, he will NEVER eat kibble again under my watch. -Tina

 

Wellness grain free turkey is a great food to feed. Many people here are feeding that, including some with well regulated cats. Adding fiber to the diet is old school veterinary thinking, and is what they do for dogs. You are doing the right thing with food.

 

A less expensive option is Friskies turkey and giblets pate. If you're going to run a rescue, one of the things you'll need to consider is costs

 

BJM and Wendy,

I appreciate your speedy reply so much!! Rocky is the only diabetic cat so far, and he will get whatever it takes to get his BG down to normal again, preferably without insulin, sometime in the future. I would much rather pay more out of the pocket for his right type of food than pay more out of the pocket for his insulin and vet visits. The goal is to get him stabilized with a low carb canned food.

According to Dr. Lisa Pierson's cat food chart, the Friskies Turkey and Giblets has 14% carbs.. so that is out of the question for Rocky right now. I need to get his carbs down to under 10%, the lower, the better.

The other 30 rescue cats and kittens currently living inside of my house DO get Friskies, however. They also get both Kirkland Kibble combined with Evo or Core kibble for breakfast. They are able to free feed on this kibble throughout day, but I only leave 9 cups of the mixture for 14 cats. They never finish it all. I remove this kibble at around 7PM, then I put down 6 cans of Friskies divided between 14 cats. I do not put their 9 cups of kibble down again until at least 6AM the next morning.

Thank you both for your help. I decided to stick with the Wellness so brought the vet techs more Wellness Grain Free Turkey for Rocky. I hope that he regulates on it there very soon.


Tina Marie Stinnett
Founder and Ower, Kitty Karma Refuge and Recovery Center

 

Check the Friskies Special Diet version of Turkey and Giblets.

 

Thank you BJM. Visited Rocky at the hospital tonight. They are still trying to find the best insulin dose for him. The vet gave me a sheet of over the counter diets suitable for diabetic cats. The % carbs were measured in Dry Matter basis.

The Friskies special diet you suggested was listed. It was information from 2005 though... The 2005 version says 4.67% carbs. Dr. Pierson's 2012 version says 6% carbs.

Wellness is also listed as having 6% carb, so I'm going to try to drop it to something like 3% carbs.

Rocky is also passing a lot of bad gas on the Wellness Grain Free Turkey. (But he's also on 3 antibiotics) I experienced his gas while I was there. I still suspect he also has pancreatitis as I had a cat with that before.. I'm not sure, but it could be the sweet potatoes and carrots in the Wellness that is giving him a bad time.

Dr. Lisa Pierson's food list for 2012 says Classic Fancy Feast Turkey & Giblets has 3% carbs measured in dry matter. I'll bring that one to the vet and see how he does on that flavor.

Rocky might even have a poultry allergy as he is losing lots of fur around his face and two front arms.

Thanks again for your help!

 

It'll be tough with a food allergy.

With food allergy, you can try 2 months of a novel protein source, then gradually try feeding small amounts of suspect products to see what triggers symptoms.

Or, you can try rotating through different protein groups on a daily basis, to see if that reduces symptoms - chicken, venison, turkey, fish, duck, beef, lamb, repeat.

Some folks group all poultry together; this rotation alternates them with another source.

 

Hi Tina Marie 8,

I hope Rocky gets better soon. I'm new on this site and really appreciated the great help I got from everyone. Good luck with the rescue as well. Gurmit

 

Hey everyone, today was the fourteenth day of testing and Boongie's sugar levels are down. The readings today were low as well 41-65). So I guess I should be very happy. I am very thankful actuallyl. I will be testing him daily for a couple more weeks and then go weekly. One thing I am worried about though is the fact that he got more and more constipated after I switched him to the wellness food. With that Hill's high fibre stuff he was having daily bowel movements. Now he is at the third day. He had issues with constipation with the urinary food too and I used to give him laxatone once in a while at the suggestion of my vet and sometimes fed him water with a syringe for his natural tendancies were not to drink much. However, even during the worst times he might have missed a day and that was it. I gave him some pumpkin once not too long before he got diabetes. I don't want to give him stuff with sugar in it now of course. Any suggestions what I can do? I had just thought a sudden switch in food and to something with less fibre was the culprit.Now I am starting to be a little scared for it has gotten worse instead of better. Basically I do add water to his food and he gets the pure bites . Thanks, Gurmit

 

It's fine to a bit of pure pumpkin (no sugar or spices) or squash to his diet. Some people buy baby food squash as that comes in small jars. Just make sure there's no onions or garlic mixed into the ingredients. And make sure you are adding lots of water to his food. That'll help the constipation if he's not drinking much on his own.

 

Check out Feline Constipation. More than you ever wanted to know about it and how it may be treated, plus great info on the feline digestive tract and how it works.

You'll want to bookmark this as a reference for your rescue.

 

Gurmit - so how long has it been now without insulin? No numbers over 130 right?

Tina - you might want to start your own thread for Rocky. but anyway - are you planning to home test? Given he is DKA prone I would strongly recommend both blood and urine testing. Have they said what kind of insulin are they using?



Wendy

 

Wendy and Tiggy,

Today was his 15th day of testing. There were no numbers over 130. The highest number was 83. Gurmit

 

BJM, I will check it out again. I actually stumbled on this before seeing your message and was a bit overwhelmed by all the info, but I will look at it. Gurmit

 

Wendy and Neko,

Thanks for the info. Do you think frozen pumpkin will work? My mom made Boongie a puree from a pumpkin I bought home and then froze a bag. I have some squash baby food too and will check the ingredients.I was thinking of powdered psyllium after doing a search on this site and seeing some people give that to their cats (my parents take it like crazy. I think people of their age from India are seeing it as a panacea for various ills). Thanks again, Gurmit

 

The frozen pumpkin should work just fine. As long as there are no spices added to the pumpkin, you'll be fine to feed that. Not many people take the time these days, to cut up a pumpkin and freeze it, so that is why we suggest canned pumpkin. Frozen will work too, just defrost it first of course. ;-)

 

Thanks Deb, I started adding the baby food today for the only ingredients were squash and water. It is good to know the frozen pumpkin is ok too. Thanks, Gurmit

 

You read the wrong Turkey and Giblets; try printing out the chart.
The Turkey and Giblets Dinner, under classic pate, is protein 41%, fat 51%,and carbohydrate 8%.

 

Gurmit - time to change your screen name from "Really worried" to "really happy and lucky" because Boongie is officially OTJ!!! :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

Tips to stay OTJ

We say a cat is in remission if the cat can maintain BG levels for 14 days between 40-120 with most of that spent under 100. However, please keep in mind that once a diabetic always a diabetic.

1. Never feed dry - not even treats. If you change wet food types, be 100% sure the new food is also low carb and same low carb % as your current food. Some cats are very carb sensitive and an increase from 3-6% to 8-10% can spike the BG’s. Don’t feed if you aren’t sure!
2. Weigh every 2 weeks to 1 month to watch for weight changes. Too much of a weight gain can cause loss of remission.
3. Measure blood once a week, indefinitely. You want to catch a relapse quickly.
4. No steroids or oral meds with sugar - remind your vet whenever giving you any medication. Always double check.
5. Monitor food intake, peeing and drinking. If increasing, a sign of losing remission.
6. Regular vet checks for infection such as dental , ear or UTI. And get them treated quick!

If he does fall out of remission you need to be more aggressive and resolve issues/ back on insulin as soon as possible as the window for a second remission is tight if any.


Wendy

 

Wendy and Tiggy,

Not time to change my screen name yet. I had a high reading yesterday, 8.2. or 147. MInd you it was when he really didn't want his ear poked (he was 94, just 22 minutes earlier which was his highest so far and I got worred and started another test. He was struggling and didn't want it being done). However, 4 hours later (I decided not to mess with him for a bit) he was 56. I had given him squash too for a couple of days. I stopped it. Today the readings were between 56-67. Also his ears aren't fully healed. I stopped using the drops for I don't want him on drops for life. I am going to the vet tomorrow for a blood test and will be talking to him about the ears too. I actually started using colloidal silver a couple of days ago and it seems to be helping or at least managing them as much as the drops were.I I'm worried about his teeth, especially now that he eats so many times a day. I haven't taken him for a cleaning for his reaction to anaesthetic was so bad during a surgery. I used to give him what was called dental treats and stuff and have tried brushing his teeth (which he hates), but will try more persistently now. This lady at Tisols told me last year not to take him for a cleaning for her friend's cat never woke up from a dental cleaning and not care if they say there is a difference between being sedation and anaesthesia. I was scared it would be the end of him if I took him and still think it could be. The constipation is still there. It is always one thing or another and I am starting to have headaches and at times just want to start crying and God gets some really sincere praying from me these days, 'Please, please help Boongie." The good things are that for the last couple of days he has been very active, jumps around a lot, plays, etc. He was lying there with his canines showing smiling and stretched out wanting to be petted by my mom when she came to see him and you could just tell he was really happy. He is getting a little fussy with his food. Jumped onto the kitchen fan and tried opening the cupboard above it to get the pure bites instead of taking the regular food. Anyway, what is your take on the one high reading in 18 days? Had he not gone right down to the 50s and been in the 50s and 60s, I would be making plans to go get the insulin from Walmart rather than using the unopened caninsulin still sitting in my fridge. So anyway, the name is still good until everything is sorted out and I continue having low readings. Thanks for listening to the rant. Gurmit

 

Feeding lightly cooked chicken gizzards is supposed to help clean the teeth, due to the fibrous nature of the gizzard. (per Cat Info.

There are many types of anesthesia - local/regional nerve blocks reduce the use of systemic sedation/anesthesia, both gas anesthesia and sedation may be used. There are reversal agents for some of the sedatives. If you go to a tertiary level (very specialty oriented) veterinary service or a dental specialist, they may be able to come up with an anesthesia protocol that will be safer for your cat. One example of a service like that is MedVet in Columbus, Ohio. Some may be available at Veterinary Colleges ... just do it before the new students come in July.

 

If you get a high reading like that try and take another one immediately. Could be just a bad reading - maybe sugar on your hands or something- I wouldn't worry unless its consistently high. And apply a thin smear of neosporin ointment on the ear after to help heal it.

Its just plain squash right? Check the label to make sure there is nothing else in it that could spike the sugar - I would also be careful of those dental treats in case they have sugars etc in them.

 

Gurmit, I just had Neko in for a dental at the West Coast Dental Services last week. They are the dental specialists in the Vancouver area. They are really good, but being specialists a bit more expensive. Your vet should be able to get you a referral to them if you want to do that. First ask your own vet if they do dental X-rays. If not, then you don't want them doing the dental.

 

BJM, I don't give the dental treats, stopped since the diagnosis. The baby food squash didn't have sugar in it at all, just two ingredients were listed. Sometimes one never knows because I didn't get a reading like that since either. Gurmit

 

Wendy, thanks so much for the dental info. Gurmit

 

Hi,

Thanks Wendy for suggesting I start a topic for Rocky. I think I really need to do so. Rocky survived the DKA but I may not survive the vet bill..

I wanted to see if I could kick-start Rocky's pancreas to work again so I want to feed him the lowest carb food possible. I am now feeding him the very expensive canned Instinct Venison. According to Dr. Pierson's food chart this one has ZERO carbs.

I have been giving Rocky very little Lantus insulin since he has been home. It's like 1 and 1/2 dose, I think, 2x a day. I was checking him for three days every three hours when he first came home and he was within a normal range, even dipped to 50 one night. The BG reading scared me but he was acting normal. I decided to feed him 1/2 a can of the Instinct and then I called the vet afterwards. They told me to give him the corn syrup but I told them that I had already fed him. In 3 hours his BG was back up to over 100.

So, tonight I'm doing the BG 12 hour curve and I'm very bummed out. It's a little after 1AM here and I'll be taking his BG every 2 hrs. His BG was at 364 at 8PM, already high, before he ate dinner. I gave him the insulin after he ate and then retested again at 10PM. It went down to 325. I tested again at 12AM and it was at 409. I called the vet because it was so high but they told me not to worry about it and to keep testing. Rocky was even being playful at this high level.

One thing I noticed with Rocky is that the third eye comes up a little when his BG is high. And, he starts scratching a lot and his fur comes out in patches. It started doing this again a few days ago. At first I thought this was from a food allergy but I do not think so now. I think it is from having a consistently high BG.

I would consider Rocky a "new" diabetes patient. I don't think he developed it until around November 2012. He was a tame cat who was eating mice out in a field, and eating some dry food that feral feeders were giving to him. He then went through the T-N-R program and ended up at my friend's house. My friend fed him nothing but Venti sized Starbuck's cups of dry MeoW Mix for a few months.

I give Rocky (1) Zobaline 2x a day. It's Vitamin B12. It won't hurt him and it makes him hungry enough to eat the deer meat. (Venison Instinct) I don't think it would have an impact on the BG, do you?

Really disappointed that I'm feeding him a a strictly ZERO carb canned food and his BG is still so high. I'm not so worried anymore about feeding him chicken or turkey as I think the fur coming out is related to the high BG and not a food allergy.

I'll look around here, but where should I post Rocky's case? I would like more help, especially in how to talk to vet's about how I want to handle Rocky's diabetes.

Thanks, Tina

 

When you say 1 and 1/2 dose, do you mean 1.5 units? Or 1 unit am and 0.5 units pm?

Lantus works best given at the same dose, every 12 hours. You have to hold the same dose a minimum of 5 days for the first dose amount and a minimum of 3 full days for any later amounts.

It is possible that the amount is too high and what you are seeing as high levels are a result of going too low or dropping too fast. Either of these can trigger compensatory hormones which release stored sugar (glycogen) and bring up the glucose level.

Can we get you to record your numbers on a spreadsheet that can be seen by those with the link? The instructions are here.
AMPS = morning pre-shot
PMPS = evening pre-shot
Units =units of insulin given
+1 = any tests done 1 hour after the shot
+# = any tests done # hours after the shot

 

Thanks BJ,

Yes, I can start recording it on a spread sheet. I need to create the spread sheet. I do not want to muddy this topic of 'What Food' so I'll move that information over to the Lantus group. (Will you come there please?) Rocky was getting 1.5 units with the 3/10 monoject syringe. It's a very tiny amount. The vet just had me increase it this morning after the 12 hr BG Curve last night showed continued readings in the 400s and his BG was still at 409mg before feeding at 8AM.

 

I do come over to Lantus occasionally, though I would not consider myself an expert on it. There are a number of folks there who are significantly more knowledgeable than I.

If you follow the link I gave you to the spreadsheet instructions, it should take you step by step through the process. If you can't quite get it, report numbers as AMPS, or PMPS, and any mid-cycle tests as +# - test result. That'll help us help you.