Hi all ! I think I read that Prozinc did not build up , and called it an in and out insulin. Why does my vet make me wait 2 weeks before making adjustments? We are still at 600+ before insulin, 3 or 4 hours later today it is 382. We are at 4 units a few days now, also , if he’s always 600+ in the morning and only drops mid day for a minute, how will it ever get to 200 for all 12 hours? Can I up the units every 12 hours until his mid day is 150 ?
Here's my take on it: 4 u might be too high a dose but we'd need data from BG tests over time to know for sure those highs in the AM might be from a rebound phenomenon we call bouncing that can happen for a variety of reasons, one being a dose that's too high he won't stay at one BG for 12 hours - that's not how this insulin works. He'll slowly drop from the AM high to the lowest point (the nadir) about half way through the 12 hours between doses and will then rise up to a level similar to the AM in the evening. Some cats will stay at or near a good BG for 12 hours if the owner is using a depot insulin like Lantus or Levemir, the cat is moderate in his response to insulin, he's well-regulated and is being dosed optimally. A case can be made for keeping a dose at least a week if it seems to be a sensible starting dose (often 1 u twice a day), seems to be giving decent numbers or you're waiting for BG to settle. Many cats are very erratic at the start. This is a high-ish dose for a relatively newly diagnosed cat. You also say in your signature that you're on your third insulin since diagnosis on June 6. That's a lot of change in a very short period of time. We generally recommend sticking to one insulin for at least 6 months to get to know its action well. There is the odd exception where it's obvious a kitty can't tolerate an insulin. Being volatile and not giving good numbers quickly doesn't fit in that category. This type of up and down is typical and it can take many, many months or longer to work out good dosing and to start seeing decent regulation. Was it your vet that recommended those insulin changes or were you worried that Queed didn't become regulated right away? No, this wouldn't be safe. The shortest interval between dose changes we recommend with ProZinc is after three 12 hour cycles. That's only done when you (and we, if you ask for help) can look at a spreadsheet of a lot of data to see what the current dose is doing. This process can't be rushed. There's no quick route to regulation unfortunately, which is why you'll hear "it's a marathon, not a sprint" so often on FDMB. The best thing you can do right now to allow us to give you the best advice possible is to set up the spreadsheet we use here and enter all BG numbers you have so far into it. There arte members who can set it up for you if you need help. @Chris & China is one. http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/fdmb-spreadsheet-instructions.130337/
Hi Qweed's Mama/Papa! and welcome to Prozinc-land! Thank you so much for getting your spreadsheet set up and into your signature. That is so helpful to all of this. Do you have a name you'd like us to call you? I'm guessing "600+" is what you'd like to get rid of, not what you'd like to hold as your name! Kris has given you some very good advice. Prozinc is not exactly an in and out insulin. You'll read that often here, but it's mostly written by folks who don't have much experience with this insulin. When it's dosed well, one cycle will impact that next, so it can take a few cycles or even a few days to really know what a dose is going to do. So you can't just move the dose from one cycle to the next and expect to accomplish anything except making your kitty feel awful. Careful dose changes and monitoring are so important in getting a kitty into a healthier, happier place. We would love to help you with that as this can all be rather tricky. I share Kris' concern about the frequent insulin changes. I would definitely recommend that you stick with this for a good long while now and let us help you get it sorted out. One of the first steps in that will be doing exactly what you just did - getting a test or two during the cycle as often as you can so we can monitor the impact of the dose and help you figure out if it needs to be raised or lowered from here. The most important hours to get tests are between +4 and +7 since that's the range in which most kitties hit nadir. After some time and data collection we can figure out when Qweed usually reaches nadir, but it is always helpful to scatter the tests around a bit to create the big picture. Please make sure you've carefully read the yellow "sticky" posts at the top of the forum, read other people's threads, and ask questions/post on your own thread whenever they arise. The more you learn, the better you'll be able to help Qweed improve.
I set one up for her but she somehow made several copies instead of using the one I sent, but it looks like she's got one that's working and that's all that matters!! @600+ Why don't you add your name to your Signature so people will know what to call you. You could change it and say "Annette and Queed, 17yrs, Dx 6/6/18 thought to be from steroid injection....etc. etc." Have you started to change his food yet? The Royal Canin and Hills are both too high in carbs for a diabetic and there's nothing special in them that does anything at all good for him. I do think you've made too many changes too quickly, but let's start where you are and see how it goes. Have you thought any about the suggestions I made the other day?
Congratulations!!! That's the most important part!! Great job! You do have it listed twice, but it works!!
Lol! It takes me several times to learn something, I have a little difficulty caused by a horse riding accident years ago. I haven’t figured out how to just post anything with replying to someone, BUT !!! Let me tell you what just happened!! At 6:30 he tested 343 !! That’s 11 hours after his last shot, and being on a road trip !! he traveled very well, was probably the first cat ever to attend a dog Dock Diving event . We then stopped at Kroger’s and I got ten cans of different flavored FF Classics. He went crazy, omg , like he hasn’t eaten in months and I guess he hasn’t, the entire can gone and wanted more, I opened the second can and then thought he might get sick so I took it back and his eyes were so big and he wanted that bowl back bad , so I gave him a quarter of it. I suppose his glucose may go through the roof now ? He sleeping on me now. It’s been a big day for him, but I couldn’t stand to board him again with no heated bed and nobody around all day tomorrow, someone said feed him all he wants, is that right? He hasn’t gotten sick.
By all means let him eat. Many small meals are usually better than fewer big meals - less chance of vomiting from eating too much too fast. As long as those are Fancy Feast pates (which is what the classics are I think) they're low enough in carbs that they shouldn't affect his BG. We always recommend, though, that all food is taken away for the 2 hours prior to an insulin injection. That way you know what the actual BG is without the influence of food and can judge the appropriateness of the dose better.
That's great news! What a lovely BG number and how great to hear he wants to eat! He needs the food, so yes, I'd let him have it. As Kris said, we'd just recommend taking it away 2 hours prior to morning and evening shots, but other than that, let him enjoy that tasty food!
The only thing you need to be careful about is feeding him so much it makes him sick. 1 1/4 cans should be fine.....just stick to small, more frequent meals instead of huge ones. (and yes, no food for the 2 hours immediately before shot times)
I don't think you'll need to worry about him going too low, but if you're worried then try to get a reading 4-5 hours after the shot and see where it's heading. I'm so glad he likes the food!
That's great! This diet change will be very helpful. Keep the 4 u dose for now and gather data. Here's the basic testing routine we recommend: test every day AM and PM before feeding and injecting (no food at least 2 hours before) to see if the planned dose is safe test at least once near mid cycle or at bedtime daily to see how low the BG goes (VERY important!) do extra tests on days off to fill in the response picture if indicated by consistently high numbers on your spreadsheet, increase the dose by no more than 0.25 u at a time so you don't accidentally go right past a good dose post here for advice whenever you're confused or unsure of what to do. Those tests in the +4 to +8 time period are essential so we can evaluate how well the 4 u dose is working. The AM and PM pre shot tests are mainly to see if the BG is high enough for you to give the planned dose safely.
I’m so glad Queed likes his new food and his bg is responding to the switch. I hope you can get the midcycle tests that Kris mentioned. They are the best way to determine if Qweed needs more or less insulin.
I have not had any cell service where we were ! He is at 127, 7 hours after his injection! Or he is at 118. The difference is if I select fasting on the meter he is 118 and after a meal he is 127. I have never choose anything but fasting because I’ve only really checked it in the AM and PM until recently. He hasn’t eaten anything since his huge amount this morning although food has been with him. His belly is definitely full.
That's fantastic! If he continues to drop up to PMPS that's a sign that the new diet is affecting his response to insulin and a dose decrease will be required. Let's wait to see where he is at PMPS. I'm in Eastern Daylight Saving Time so an hour later than you (you're showing Tennessee as your state, right?). I should be back here to check by 6 PM your time. If you need advice sooner. post on the main forum.
Thank you !! He’s been sleeping all day. So I was a little worried, I stopped at the hotel lobby and got a shot of honey in a cup in case we need it. We will pull off the interstate in an hour for another test , that will be 9 hours after insulin 4u
So great to hear that Queed is responding in a positive manner and is liking the FF Classics...I know vets don't always like it but you can't argue Queeds response to it with him gobbling it down and his drop in BG readings! Hang in there I think with the help of these folks on here Queed is making the turn! I know you are probably on top of it but don't forget plenty of fresh water for Queed also. Hydration!!!....Stay positive it will help Queed!
That's fantastic!!! He's doing great! Please do post at preshot time so we can help you determine if a dose decrease is needed.
Yes I will, I work so I won’t be able to check on him at all after shot at 5 am , I will get back home at 4 pm. His 4pm check was 137 and he did want to eat some, but dang , I’m making a mess of the veins in his ears, I couldn’t see it until the sun shined through them while sitting in my lap in the car
I have already given him only 3.5 because I didn’t know what to do and can’t be with him tomorrow, but I will give 4 in the morning then. Thanks !
Annette, am I correct that you shot at 7PM tonight and will shoot at 5AM tomorrow morning? If so, that will be at +10, post here with your AMPS. I know you won’t be around to monitor all day, can you leave some food out for him?
Let's see where he's at in the morning first!! That's why we always test before shooting....our kitties can surprise us and throw a low number when we least expect it. But today was a good day for him!!
I think you mentioned before in the first post that he is an outdoor / indoor cat. If that's correct I am just wondering with his number jumping up like that after you got back from your trip if he was out and about and could have sourced some other food in your neighborhood? It seems during the trip when you switched his diet that he dropped BG rather dramatically and I'm assuming he was more of an indoor kitty during that time frame. I just mention it as a possibility because I had that situation happen with Sketch...he was eating hard food over at his girlfriends house where he hung out sometimes. I spoke with the neighbors and they confirmed "ya he comes by for a meal often" When I explained his situation they were more then happy to not free feed outdoors any longer which made his numbers much more consistent...he still spikes on occasion but not like he used to.
Yes that’s correct, I’m going to have to get the dang opossum out that I found all cuddled up in the blanckets in the big wire cat cage that’s in the house. It’s a baby , I didn’t want to mess around with him last night and he didn’t want to move out so I closed him in there. I’m going down now and will check his BG
He is confined to a fenced yard , there was no other cat food . Maybe it was from excitement of being home ? I don’t know . I’m checking him again in a minute
Oh my gosh ! 178 ! At 5:30 , 3.5 units last night. What do I do, put cage with baby opossum out of the house by the woods , I can leave wet food out in the house, hopefully the possum won’t go back in , but he was curled up and upside down sleeping like a baby kitten.
It’s 178 ! Baby opossum was sleeping curled up and upside down like a kitty, I got that whole big cage outside by the woods ! How much insulin should I give Qweed? I won’t be home until almost 4 today
Are you heading out right away or do you have a little time to stall and see if his BG comes up anymore?
Is he eating well? If you can't stall and he eats well, I'd either skip or give a very small shot...like 0.5. Checking last night, he seemed to come up a LOT in the last few hours, which is somewhat typical. Giving the shot that early makes me nervous though, since we just don't know what's going to happen or if he will dive because of it. What makes you feel more comfortable?
None makes me comfortable , I’m going to feed him now , I have got to leave now for work! I’ll let you know where he is at 4 pm ! Thanks !
I think that's a good choice. He'll probably be high tonight and that is FINE. With this BG being at +10, it's just iffy to give insulin since the old dose is probably still in his system. I know that happens when you have to give a shot early, but you gotta be extra careful when it does happen...and sometimes that means his BG just has to be higher at night! Getting back on a normal 12/12 schedule might help him be in better numbers tomorrow and if it doesn't...well that will just tell us we need a little less insulin! I'll try to check in on you at 4. I'm off today, so it's a good day for me to be able to check in!
Whew! So much excitement! Baby opossum, low BG, leaving for work! You did the right thing in skipping the dose and we can help you decide what to do later. I might not be around later this afternoon but Rachel will be.
Thank you ! I know he got a little sassy about me poking his ear this morning! And he had a voice! It’s been a while since he’s talked to me
I see that black on your SS for PMPS. It's likely a rebound number after no insulin this AM. It's best to find a dose that allows you to give insulin both AM and PM. You could try 3 u tonight to see if tomorrow's AMPS is high enough for you to give him his dose.
I was doing 3.5 for 2 weeks before going up to 4. With nothing below 500 , do you think the food made this huge difference, he was really hungry so I fed him right after testing, I will give him 3 now. I guess that’s going to mess him up that I fed him before the shot, but I had to clean the cat house, opossums stink, and Qweed was really hungry. I also want to say that even though he is high right now, his eyes look good! He doesn’t look as old as he did a few days ago !
Try 3 u tonight to see what AMPS he gives you. After a few cycles at 3u you can increase if numbers warrant. If he's eating low carb Fancy Feast he can eat as much as he wants (preferably in many small meals) because he needs to gain weight. The important thing is to remove food for the two hours before the AM and PM pre shot BG tests.
Will do, I have closed the cat door and disinfected the cat house from the opossum sleepover. This way I can leave some food out for him. Is there a good dry food he could have ? Will his number be off because he ate about 30 minutes before his shot ?
You're supposed to feed before the shot. The order is test, feed, shoot. If he's doing well on the wet I wouldn't introduce a dry. There are a small handful of lower carb dry foods. Young Again Zero carb, Dr elsley's clean protein chicken, and epigen 90.
Omg, My vet told me to give the shot WITH a meal, not before or after. I hope that hasn’t messed him up. I’ve been giving the shot while his head was in the bowl eating. Okay I will only feed him the wet.
I leave some wet out for Sketch at night...I usually just add a little water to it so it will stay moist longer. Seems to work for him.
Na it's fine... A lot give it while they are eating.... But do know it's perfectly fine that he ate before the shot.
Yep, I leave wet out for my cats all day. I add water since they like it that way and also to keep it kind of moist for them. They're fine. Yes, it's fine to give the shot while he eats. Just make sure he's got a little food in him first and then it's fine...I gave the shot while Gypsy ate every single day.
Rachel, do you think 3u was okay for 264 this morning? I left some food out, but the way he’s eating it, I cannot say he will have any left in 6 hours.
Yes, I think he'll be OK with the 3 u dose. If he's your only kitty you could invest in a timed feeder so he can eat at regular intervals while you're at work. If you're home from work a few hours before his evening dose, get a BG test as soon as you're in the door. It'll be valuable data to have on your SS for work days.
Hi everyone! I put a new avatar picture up ! Look how nice his eyes look ! That old look is going away, he still can’t get enough food, I gave him 3.5 u tonight, he’s getting close to 400 again. He’s feeling hydrated and I think he’s gained a little weight, his overall appearance is much better. I’ll let you know where he is at 5:30 ! I tried to change my signature 600+ but I can’t for 89 more days. And thanks to you all I believe he is going to live through this ! ❤️❤️❤️ Thank you for being here for us !
I love your new avatar photo! I'd stay at 3.5 u for a few days so you can get some middle cycle data to evaluate the dose. It's essential to know how low a dose gets him to properly judge it. The pre shot numbers are best used only to decide if BG is high enough for the planned dose. It's unwise to change a dose based only on a pre shot number. Reasons: a PS can be inflated because a dose wore off more quickly (it can happen); a PS can be inflated because of bouncing from dropping low or quickly earlier in the cycle. That means a dose increase made because a PS is higher could result in too high a dose. You get to really see a dose's effect if you have BG measurements over the time period when the insulin action is at its peak and therefore BG is at its lowest. On work days when you can't test between +4 and +7 or so it's best to avoid a dose increase. A before bed test every evening (especially on work days) can give valuable information on how a dose is working.
I love your new picture!! He looks good!! You might want to start weighing him once a week to make sure he's gaining at a good rate. A lot of us have a baby scale to keep tabs on our kitty's weight, but you can use a plain bathroom scale if that's all you have. Just weigh yourself first, pick him up and do the math!
So glad that he is responding! Great new picture. Keep bulking up the little guy with that FF. Its great to see the optimism in your posts and I am sure that Queep is feeding off of his moms positive energy!
That picture is great! He looks so much more engaged and so much happier already. It's great to hear the food change is still a hit! I agree with Kris on the dose. And another thought I had is that if you can get ANY other tests, that will help us. A lot of people can't get anything during the day when they work (I couldn't I know) but if you can get a before bed test at +2 or +3 that will help us determine what's going on a little bit too. All data is good data!
He is looking so good ! His eyes have changed and he’s feeling hydrated ! He’s not happy about being locked in the house at night, but I’ve ordered a cat door that will only open with a collar that he will have to wear and that will keep any possums or raccoons from getting his food
My chewy order came, the FF Classic I got is beef and poultry, is there to many carbs in that flavor food? The others I was giving this past weekend were a mix of different flavors but all FF Classic. I’ll be packing him up for another road trip this weekend to the St Louis Arch . I will be able to do another all day check there.
Oh good ! Lol I brought two cans to work to look under the magnifying glass to try to read the labels for carbs the print is sooo small. And I missed with the shot being in a hurry so I gave 1 unit for sure . I’m pretty certain but not positive that the other 3.5 went right out the other side.
This food chart put together by a vet who's knowledgeable about cat nutrition is very helpful. You can look up you Fancy Feast Classics to see their carb level. You won't find carb info on a can label. https://catinfo.org/docs/CatFoodProteinFatCarbPhosphorusChart.pdf Don't worry about the partial shot. Go back to 3.5 u next shot time and try to get some evening data to help us assess the dose. If you're off, get at least one test in the +4 to +7 range during the day.
I did glance at that 67 page chart, it was a little overwhelming so I didn’t read much, but yes I only bought the classic, no gravy. None of my cats have EVER eaten any of the chunks that come in canned cat food either! None of them , and I’ve had a lot of cats !
If you click on the link for food chart in my signature, it's a sortable document with the same information. Then instead of looking at 67 pages, you can just use the categories at the top to find the food you want.
He was laying on the floor when I got home, I checked him right away, he still had food in the bowls so I have no idea when he ate last. Then he only got 1 unit for sure because I miss fired the 3.5 . He’s at 574 at +10 and was happy to start eating a brand new can. I figured it didn’t matter since I have no idea if he’s been eating all day. Should I give 3.5 at +12 or 4 ? He doesn’t feel good despite eating more. The clinic said he weighed 5.9 on my scale with me he is 6.5 . It’s not much but I can tell he’s gained
Stick with 3.5 u for now. Try to get an evening test in around +2 or +3 tonight. That black is from not getting a full dose this AM.
I think he's still bouncing madly. If you're off this weekend I suggest you do a full curve at the 3.5 u dose. There isn't enough data yet to be able to assess it properly.
I’m feeling madly myself at these numbers, I never thought a number could make me so angry. I’ll take him to St. Louis tonight and try to get night tests, why are night tests different from day tests ? I fed him after the 2 am check , I’m sure he ate it all long before 6am . Does anybody ever do a 4u in the morning and 3 at night? Maybe he only needs one 4u a day ? Sheesh, my head
Many cats run lower at night, so it's important to get tests in for both cycles so we make sure he isnt' getting too much insulin during the PM cycle. Usually we just grab before-bed tests (there are about 3-4 hours for me between when I give him his shot and when I go to sleep), and then whenever I'm out late I'll try to get one even later into the PM cycle. As far as different AM/PM doses, there have been times when I've done that, but it really doesn't work very well. If it gets offset at all, it's usually by a very small amount. Giving a whole unit different would make both of your cycles pretty wonky.
Deep breaths ... you'll get there. Patience is key though - no frequent dose changes, etc. This WILL take time. Night (evening) tests serve two functions: 1. many kitties run lower at night for many reasons - less food, less active, etc. ; 2. evening tests can help fill in the BG data gaps when you can't test during the day because you're at work. Yes, this is possible IF you have a load of data on kitty's responses and you've narrowed down the good dosing range. You aren't there yet. There's a typical pattern we see when working toward better BG regulation: owner starts testing and gets crazy numbers that make no sense because kitty is early in treatment or the dosing hasn't been optimal to that point owner panics and wants BG regulated ASAP leading to frequent dose changes or too large increments that increase the erratic numbers and leads to big ups and downs more careful dosing (consistent dosing, testing at key times, 0.25 u increments when changing) is undertaken and things begin to calm down although BG range is too high eventually the BG range improves and nadir values optimize (somewhere in dark green is good) owner hones in on the best dose range and can try tweaks to customize dosing to suit the kitty. These steps take many, many weeks if not many months. Right now you're at the first and second steps and we're trying to get you to the third. We've all been where you are.
That makes all kinds of sense, and I am very inpatient when I know anyone feels bad, when the vet mentioned these high levels eventually effecting other organs I really got panicked, but he never said how long was to long, I feel like since June is way to long to be creeping along at tiny drops. And when I boarded him they gave his insulin at 8 am and 5 pm and do a curve like that. He was bad when I picked him up, very old in the eyes and dehydrated. And I know he froze in there. So he gets to see St. Louis this weekend and I will do my best to stay up past 8pm . It’s getting up early keeps me so tired, gotta love factory work.
Do the best you can to follow the guidelines we've given you here. This is really overwhelming at first but it DOES get easier. The reward is seeing Queed doing better and feeling better. Come here and ask about anything at all. We're here to help.
I appreciate you all Sooo much, I was very desperate when I found you, now he’s eating good, he’s stronger and I don’t feel like he’s going to die any minute. I felt totally helpless and just watching him get worse every day waiting for the vets curve every 3 weeks with NO good news ever. Then trying to figure it out myself. You guys are my rock , I wait for your advice. I am happy I got to see a number under 200. I will be patient.❤️
Yes when you get to see those lower numbers it's the best thing ever. And when they start feeling better and you can see them being more like themselves it's great too! Something to read when you're having a stressed out day: Dear Mom . I still read that when I'm having a bad day! It's helpful.
Good morning all !! We’re off an hour due to travel, his yesterday morning shot was 6am, last night he got it at 7:30 and again at 730am he’s at 134 !!! Should I give another 3.5 ? My plan was to leave him in the hotel room today by himself, I’ll be working outside all day and it’s going to be 50 in St. Louis . It will get cold in the car. I can leave food out in the room. If he were to get to low will he eat by himself? Or should I take him ? He just ate 2 cans of FF . Waiting for you to tell me a dose
