opinions on fvrcp vaccine

I'll preface this by saying I'm not too into vaccines for my cats or kids to begin with, so I am a skeptic on both the necessity of the vaccine itself, and at the very least on the recommendation that they get it annually. I feel that maybe they recommend it yearly just to make money. But after some issues with Charlie's dx and treatment at our previous vet, maybe I'm just a bit untrusting of vets in general. I'm sure we've all felt that! Also, a few years back the fvrcp vax was changed and starting that year both of my kitties got sick every time they got the shot. Vomiting (not severe, but vomiting nonetheless), lethargy, some diarrhea. Neither has had one since august 2009. Any opinions on how important they are, especially yearly? Thanks!!


edited to correct order of letters in vaccine

 

Re: opinions on fcvrp vaccine

Dr. Lisa's site has great info on each vacc and why she makes each recommendation.

www.catinfo.org

 

Re: opinions on fcvrp vaccine

It definitely doesn't need to be done every year, all of our vac have been changed over to every 2 or 3 years, I believe that is our 3 year.

How important is it? Will your cats be exposed to other cats? If they won't be exposed to the viruses then I don't think its going to be that important, but just a sick cat sneezing around your cat can get it sick with some of those viruses. I can attest to that. Our cats have always gotten their shots, except a mixup in their records and us not noticing we weren't taking all the cats in caused Smokey to miss 4 years of getting her's and I think that may be why she was vulnerable when we brought Avie home. We kept them all separated for the first few days, but let her out to mingle a little after that. Avie just sounded like she had a hair ball. After a couple of days we realized that wasn't it and in she went. Vet guessed herpes. We isolated her, but it was already to late, she'd been sneezing and coughing around the house and everyone got bad URIs. After Smokey got sick enough to need to go to the Uof MN she tested positive for calicivirus. The other kitten we went back and got after he spent 3 months in isolation after getting sick, Mittens, had had at least 2 boosters before the crud hit the Humane Society, but I am pretty sure he has calici and didn't get just the URI with the stomatitus and other issues he has. Both him and Smokey have some issues that linger. Of course little typhoid Mary -Avie is perfectly fat and healthy now, just a carrier.

I guess my point is if your cats don't get exposed it won't be an issue, if your cat could get exposed, you may want to weigh their exposure risk before ruling it out because the viruses can leave lasting effects. Don't let a greedy vet make you go to not protecting your cats. Look for a vet that is willing to give the 3 year vac.

 

Re: opinions on fcvrp vaccine

Yea, every 3 years. Vets saying every year are way behind the times.

while it is still an injection and there is risk of VAS with any injection, the FVRCP vaccine is a "core" vaccine. It is for preventing/minimizing upper respiratory infections ( that they can be exposed to at the vet because its airborne) and Panleukopenia (feline distemper) I do think they are probably covered longer than 3 years. But IMHO, this is not a vaccine I would "never" booster. Again, just my own opinion.

Since your kitties have had reactions before, you might ask if they changed brands and if they can get the one that didnt affect them.

 

Re: opinions on fcvrp vaccine

And there are those of us - including some very 'heavy hitters' on VIN - who are strongly against even the every 3 year protocol.

There is a VIN thread going on now on this very subject that has one of the consultants stating that they vaccinated their cats as kittens, then at 1 year of age, then no further boosters. This person is an infectious disease specialist.

And then there is the member of the AVMA panel that came up with the 3 year guidelines who also does not vaccinate their own cats past the 1 year booster.

And...the head vet of a major vaccine company....who also stated to me that they do not vaccinate past the 1 year booster.

A common mistake is made when discussing the '3 year protocol'. It is not stated that these vaccines are recommended every three years but, instead it is worded "no more frequently than every 3 years". That is a big difference. It leaves it much more open-ended than "vaccinate every 3 years"....with many knowledgeable vets not vaccinating their own cats every 3 years.

Of course, it is up to everyone to do their homework and work within their comfort zone but I do want to make it known that many vets 'in the know' definitely do NOT vaccinate their cats every 3 years and I have read that this includes Dr. Ron Shultz....our vaccine guidelines guru.

Also keep in mind that the herpes and calici vaccines are not terribly efficient at conferring immunity whereas the panleuk vax is.

 

Re: opinions on fcvrp vaccine

Thank you, thank you, thank you everyone! That is some very enlightening information, Lisa. My cats are strictly indoors, they are never around other cats, and are never even around each other. They have seperate sections in the house and seperate litter boxes (they don't get along, and their spats were too stressful for me), so they are probably at pretty low risk for any infectious diseases. I think that I just may stop giving that vax, or at least not booster it again for a few more years. They're not spring chickens (9 and 10) and the fact that it makes them sick makes me nervous. Thanks again.

 

Re: opinions on fcvrp vaccine

Also keep in mind the very strong link between the FVRCP vaccine and kidney inflammation.

CKD is the most common subject that I consult on and I just can't chalk it up to 'old age' for every cat.

 

Re: opinions on fcvrp vaccine

Hi Dr. Lisa

Can you point me to the evidence here? I know of a very few studies on this -- have there been more studies with greater evidence?

I actually don't see a clear link here. There very well might be, but it may also be that cat kidneys didn't evolve to last for 15-20 years. They work great for the first few years when they are at their reproductive peak, and the selective pressure goes down after that. There may be a million different aspects of domestication that don't agree with kidneys, as well. Cats did not evolve as scavengers (like dogs) whose kidneys have to take the hits that come with eating contaminated food or things that may or may not actually be food. I personally believe that cats are in the process of domestication and aren't 'domesticated' like our dogs and horses are. Either way nothing points me to the mainly in-vitro evidence of the CRFK researchers; it's just unclear. What is clear is that if cats were no longer vaccinated for panleukopenia, a great number of them wouldn't live long enough to worry about renal health [We'd be talking about not vaccinating at all, of course, since the antibodies would be created from a single shot just as from multiple shots.]

Which brings me to the other point I always make in these vaccination threads. Having seen cats die a slow and suffering death from feline panleukopenia (I'm sure Lisa & Merlyn has too, with her shelter work), I bristle at any notion of not vaccinating cats. (I know that no one has proposed not vaccinating at all, in this thread.) One of my coworkers met, at a friend's house, an apparently healthy cat that had recently been found on the street and she then unwittingly brought home that cat's panleukopenia to her own two adult cats. She brought it home on her clothes, her hair, who knows what (not her hands, she'd washed them) and her vaccinated cats were briefly ill but survived.

As far as the experts, I am not sure what those same experts would say or do with their own cats if they had seen panleuk kill half the cats in a shelter cat ward in less than 24 hours. A close friend of mine that worked for the MSPCA in Boston years ago came into work one morning and the majority of cats were 'down' in their cages, and a few kittens were actually already dead. This is after leaving what looked to be healthy-looking cats the evening before. Because of aggressive vaccination programs, most people just hear a story or two like this and don't actually have to witness the kind of horrible, dramatic scenes a virulent outbreak creates. They might feel differently if they did.

Having said all that, I would still never vaccinate yearly because it clearly seems to be unnecessary. If I adopted a kitten myself, I would do the kitten shots, booster a year later, and probably vaccinate 2x more during the lifetime (greater than 3 years apart). I think my 13 yr old cat has gotten 3 vaccines, since I found him as an adult. I consider myself to be in a high-risk position so I am more careful. Those who work at all with unknown cats should consider themselves higher-risk as well.

 

Re: opinions on fcvrp vaccine

I am very pressed for time right now so this will be quick. I will write more later if I get a chance.

I am so bummed. A few days ago, I went back to my vaccine page and clicked on a link that I had to three abstracts from Dr. Mike Lappin's work at CSU and the page has been changed! Grrr.....it was just there a month ago.

Now I need to write to CSU or try to find them myself. When I get a chance, I will do more sleuthing since I need to get the info back on my site.

Have you read Dr. Lappin's work?

It depends on your definition of "clear link".

The FVRCP vaccine has been proven to cause inflammation in the kidney...ie....in vivo (in the animal) not just in vitro (in the lab) - an important distinction.

The issue that has not been 'proven' is that the FVRCP vaccine causes kidney failure.

Well....I don't now about the rest of you but if something is known to cause inflammation in an organ, then I am not going to wait until there is enough funding and interest (hell may freeze over first) to prove that the inflammation can contribute to a less-than-healthy organ in the end. I don't know of too many organs in the body that take too kindly to inflammation.

Look at the report of the puppy that died because his owner vaccinated him 7 times in the first 7 months of life. Major overkill, of course, but on post they found severe inflammation in the renal tissue - linked to the vaccines...with whatever deep tissue studies they did.

This case made me raise my eyebrows over the thought of vaccinating a kitten up to FOUR times in the first 4 months of life which is conceivable if the guidelines are followed to the letter.

I have a guilty until proven innocent mindset versus the other way around.

And...off on a tangent but as a good analogy.....if one is to do a search on PubMed for carrageenan induced inflammation, they will find a lot of studies showing just how inflammatory carrageenan is. They use it to induce inflammation in experimental models.

Recently a report came out showing that carrageenan causes intestinal inflammation in human cells. Ok...so IBD is pretty common in cats and carrageenan is very common in canned cat food. So...I post on VIN and the response is..."well.. there have been no studies in cats showing that this substance contributes to IBD".

Ok.....fine. You guys take the 'innocent until proven guilty' road....which translates into..."we will wait until someone has the money and interest to study this before we take it seriously..... even though carrageenan is a known inflammatory agent".

But....I will choose the other road....and error on the side of caution and not feed it to cats - especially IBD patients - if I can help it.

Note that cats get the VERY short end of the stick when it comes to $$funding for research. They are the ultimate red headed step-child....as Rodney Dangerfield would say..."they don't get no respect" when it comes to funding dollars.....so I am not going to sit around and hold my breath until this carrageenan is studied in the cat.

My colleagues will keep feeding it until some proves that carrageenan does not belong in cat food.

Two different ways of looking at the same issue. Innocent until proven guilty...or the more conservative approach of guilty until proven innocent.

And...since the FVRCP vax has been proven to cause inflammation in cat kidneys, I will also take this into consideration when determining the risk:benefit analysis as it pertains to a vaccine protocol.

Which, of course, we are not talking about.

I do more than bristle....that is putting it mildly. I echo your thoughts and go crazy when I hear of 'naturalists' (breeders, etc.) bragging about "Vaccine-free kittens for sale". I, like you, promptly discuss the horrible deaths from panleuk that I have witnessed.

But, as you say:

Thankfully, the panleuk vax is a very good one. Better to have a highly efficacious panleuk vax and a not-so-efficatious herpes/calici vax than the other way around.

The people who I am speaking about have seen plenty of panleuk, I assure you. Don't assume that these are naive youngsters in this biz. One of them has more grey hair than I do.

Of course it is important to assess risk which is pointed out several times on my vaccine page but that still does not negate the DOI studies out there.

Edit - sorry about the funky quoting but I think the reader can get the gist of it. No time right not to fix the quotes.

 

Re: opinions on fcvrp vaccine

That last post was very rushed but see below for more details.

This is a very important subject for me since the last person I want is to be perceived as is.... the 'Andrew Wakefield' of the veterinary community.

First, an excerpt from my website taken from CSU:

"The Center for Companion Animal Studies at Colorado State University has shown that cats vaccinated with FVRCP vaccines grown on Crandell-Rees Feline Kidney (CRFK) cell lines can develop antibodies to renal (kidney) proteins, and that cats hypersensitized to CRFK cell lysates can develop interstitial nephritis.

The immunodominant antigens to which antibodies are formed in these cats are α-enolase and Annexin A2, both of which are linked to autoimmunity and renal disease in humans.

Recently, we have shown that cats administered FVRCP vaccines parenterally (i.e. injectable) have higher levels of circulating antibodies to these antigens than do cats who were administered a FVRCP vaccine via intranasal administration."

Now...in plain English:

The viruses used to make vaccines need to be grown in what is called a "cell culture". The cells used to make the FVRCP vaccine are feline (cat) kidney cells.

When these kidney cells are injected into the cat (along with the vaccine), his immune systems views them as foreign and makes antibodies against them. Unfortunately, those antibodies don't know the difference between the injected kidney cells and his own kidney tissue resulting in an autoimmune 'attack' on his own kidneys. ('Auto' means 'self''.)

Most people have heard of Lupus. Lupus is a life-threatening autoimmune disease most commonly seen in humans. So, in essence, the FVRCP vaccines stimulate a Lupus-like reaction in the recipient.

End excerpt from my website.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

See page 2 from this paper by Dr. Lappin - from CSU:

Note that "interstitial nephritis" means kidney inflammation.

http://secure.aahanet.org/eweb/images/A ... ACCINE.pdf

See below for excerpts for people who do not want to wade through the whole thing - with my comments in italics:

Dr. Lappin:

In my opinion, vaccines for cats undoubtedly have saved many more cats than they have hurt.

We can obviously all agree on that statement.

Regarding injection site sarcomas:

Previously, this problem seemed most apparent in cats administered adjuvanted rabies virus and feline leukemia virus vaccines. However, recent information suggests that injection site sarcomas can occur with any type of vaccine. For example, in the United Kingdom in 2005, 23 of 39 injection site sarcomas reported in cats occurred at the site a live vaccine (non-adjuvanted) was administered (Dyer et al. 2007).

I harped very heavily on adjuvants on my Vaccine page but it is important to note that even the non-adjuvanted FVRCP vaccine and the PureVax vaccines can cause nasty sarcomas.

The Crandall-Rees feline kidney (CRFK) cell line has been used to propagate feline viruses for years. While isolated from a kidney, the cell line has characteristics of a fibroblast. During virus purification for vaccine production (FVRCP) or immunoassay development, it is impossible to remove all CRFK proteins or other cell constituents. Thus, CRFK proteins contaminate the viral preparations, and commercially available FVRCP vaccines grown on the cell line contain CRFK proteins. As a consequence, during the course of routine immunization, cats are exposed to CRFK proteins and may mount an immune response against those proteins. Since the CRFK cell line is derived from a feline cell line, administration of FVRCP vaccines induces antibodies that also bind to feline tissues.

Antibody/antigen (cell) complexes are not a good thing to have in tissues.

We have now performed several studies to assess the problem.

My summary for those not wishing to wade through the article:

In 2005 they conducted a study to test for antibodies to the CRFK cell line (the feline kidney cell culture line used to grow the virus line) and also to test for antibodies to FRC (feline renal cells).

Quote:

All 6 cats administered CRFK lysate were positive on multiple sample dates in the FRC ELISA.

All 6 cats administered a parenteral vaccine were positive on multiple sample dates in the FRC ELISA.

("parenteral" means injectable vs intranasal)

Significant CBC, serum biochemical, urinalysis, microalbuminuria, or histopathologic abnormalities were not detected during the study.

ie....no clinical or histopath signs of renal disease were noted - but note that they did the biopsies 6 weeks after the last vaccine and they only followed the cats for 1 year. They then went back and repeated the study but this time they took the biopsies within 2 weeks of the last vaccine.

Quote:

In the first study, renal biopsies were collected 6 weeks after the last vaccination or hypersensitization (Lappin et al., 2005). It is possible that inflammation of renal tissues occurred but was transient and resolved by the time of biopsy.

We have completed a follow-up study (Lappin et al. 2006a) in which we hypothesized that interstitial nephritis would be detected in cats hypersensitized with CRFK lysates, boosted with CRFK lysates, and then biopsied 2 weeks after the booster.

We documented interstitial nephritis (kidney inflammation) in 3 of 6 cats hypersensitized with CRFK lysates, but not cats vaccinated with the intranasal FVRCP vaccine. None of these 3 cats had significant inflammation detected 1 year previously.

One of the 6 cats recently died of interstitial nephritis.

However, it is important to emphasize that the cats in the study had been inoculated multiple times with CRFK proteins over the first year of the study. Whether this occurs after parenteral administration of CRFK-contaminated FVRCP vaccines using routine vaccination protocols remains to be proven.

We are in the process of determining the immunodominant CRFK antigens recognized by feline antibodies (Whittemore & Lappin 2005). We have identified 3 immunodominant antigens and will study these antigens further.

Antibodies against 2 of the 3 antigens have been associated with autoimmune disorders in people.

At this time, we have not directly linked FVRCP vaccination to auto-immune diseases in cats.

**Note that the first study only lated 1 year and used a very small sample size.

**Note that the word "diseases" in the sentence above means, to my interpretation, an overt clinical manifestation of disease. In other words, the patient now feels/looks sick.

However, there is a section on my main page that speaks to this issue. It is at the top of my Feeding Your Cat article that talks about the fact that we are all 'fine'...CLINICALLY....until we are not so fine.

In other words, long before we feel sick.... or see that cancer..... or experience clinical signs of ANY illness such as kidney disease, diabetets, etc., damage is being done under the radar - at the cellular level.

The minute we start to *feel* sick is not the same time that our body started getting sick. We start getting sick - at the cellular level - long before we started to feel sick.

In a summarized nutshell, what Dr. Lappin's studies have show is that the FVRCP vaccine does cause interstitial nephritis.

The $64K question is - what role does this kidney inflammation play in the pathogenesis of feline CKD?

I am certainly relieved that fewer people are subjecting their cats to annual vaccines but a poll (not sure how long ago) showed that almost half of all vets are still pushing annual vaccines!

More from Dr. Lappin's paper:

To further assess for disease associations with administration of CRFK-containing FVRCP vaccines, we are currently performing the following studies:

1. determination of the source and distribution of CRFK proteins in feline tissues; and

2. correlation of CRFK antibodies with presence of biochemical abnormalities in a group of client-owned cats in the United States.

I assume that "biochemical abnormalities" means elevated BUN, creatinine, etc.

A general recommendation at this time would be to not use parenteral FVRCP vaccine at an interval shorter than every third year.

Pay close attention to how that is worded. They are NOT recommending to vaccinate your cat every 3 years! This is a huge mistake that people make when they talk about the "3 year protocol".

They are saying "don't vaccinate more frequently than every 3 years". Very, very open-ended.....

In addition, FVRCP antigens should not be split and given yearly, as that may result in increased exposure to the cell culture antigens.

End excerpts Dr. Lappin's paper

Like with so many things in life, we have to do a risk:benefit analysis and then be comfortable with our decisions.

Most owned cats are at a very, very low risk for panleuk.

But having said that, do not equate a higher risk with a lower duration of immunity. In other words, if you take two cats with an equal immune response to the same vaccine protocol..... the cat wandering around out on the street is no less protected than the house cat that is at a much lower risk. All things being equal, they should have the same level of antibodies and memory cells.

The other $64K question is.....does further boostering really increase the cat's immunity??? The answer to that is not a clear-cut "yes". It may or it may not.

And...the ol' ECID is a factor also.

One thing that we have also not discussed is running a panleuk titer. This post has already gotten too long and I discuss titers on my Vaccine page.

Bottom line? Educate yourself and then do whatever makes you comfortable since there are few absolutes in this world.

 

Re: opinions on fcvrp vaccine

By the way, one of the most heartbreaking outbreaks of panleuk that I was involved with was in 1999 when ~15-20 kittens were vaccinated with a leading manufacturer's FVRCP.

Many of them died from panleuk within days. Evidently, the batch was not attenuated enough and they got the disease from the vaccine. This is a very small risk when any modified live vaccine is used....but the company did pay the vet bills.

Our rescue group continued to use this product for another 10 years without any problems.

My point? Vaccines carry risks so choose your protocol wisely.

 

Re: opinions on fcvrp vaccine

That's great information. Thank you! I am pretty well read on the dozen-plus vaccines the docs want to inject in my human children, but woefully uneducated on those given to my cats. Thankfully it's just this one and rabies. It seems unconscionable to me that vets would know that this vax should not be given more often than any three years, but the 2 offices (one of them accredited by AAHA) tried to give them annually. Apparently they hope their clients won't question them or do any research and they can keep lining their pockets.

 

I don't have any strong opinions one way or the other about vaccinations. Just wanted to chime in to say that some of the boarding facilities I've been looking into require proof of rabies and FVRCP vaccination. This may not be a consideration if you have someone who can come into your home to give shots when you have to be away. But it may be a consideration if you ever want to board the cat.

 

Another important note: Be careful what you bring home.

If you are working in a shelter, rescue, vet office, or even just visiting with other animals, your body and/or clothing may be contaminated with infectious material which you could take home.

In known exposure situations (shelter/rescue intake, vet office/hospital, etc), put shoe guards over your shoes and gown if you have it, and wear washable, disinfectable clothing. When you come home, strip it all off into the laundry and take a bath to reduce the chances of infecting your companion animals.

You may want to avoid petting other clients animals in the waiting room as you don't know what they may be carrying.

And the ubiquitous: wash your hands!

 

Well both of my kitties are vaxed above and beyond any recommendation. They got the fvrcp yearly from 2001-2009. they haven't had it since 2009, but they are still well within the vax guidelines of "not more frequently than every 3 years". They get the rabies every 3 years because it is required by law.

 

Please be sure to read what I wrote on my Vaccine page about adjuvants. You would have to put a gun to my head...and pull the trigger...before I would allow an adjuvanted vaccine to be injected into my cats. (All 3-year vaccines are adjuvanted.)

 

Dr. Lisa,

Do you know of any serious side-effects of the intranasal/intraocular form of the FVRCP vaccine? One of my civvies is on that bi-annually because it controls her chronic calicivirus symptoms.

 

Serious side effects? No, I don't know of any.

This information is on my website:

Intranasal (IN)

Intranasal vaccines are also modified live viruses and all are NON-adjuvanted. They are administered via the nose and eyes. I do not use them for several reasons. The following comments pertain to the intranasal FVRCP vaccine - keeping in mind that the most important virus among the 3 that any FVRCP vaccine targets is panleukopenia:

1) The route of infection for panleukopenia is oral, not via the respiratory tract. Intranasal vaccines are better at conferring immunity for respiratory viruses and are less effective than an injectable MLV for stimulating immunity to panleukopenia.

2) There are no DOI challenge studies for panleukopenia post-intranasal vaccination like there are for the MLV vaccines.

3) Even though they may be more efficacious for the herpes and calici viruses, they often cause sneezing and watery eyes and the owner needs to be aware of this. Our rescue group tried using these vaccines and it was a disaster because our kittens had to sit out from adoptions for about 2 weeks due to sneezing and watery eyes.

4) On a positive note, intranasal vaccines cannot cause a Vaccine Associated Sarcoma and they have been shown to cause NO kidney inflammation. However, even in light of these 'pluses' I am not comfortable using them to protect kittens against panleukopenia.

5) In some situations (catteries and shelters with a severe herpes/calici problem), the IN vaccine that contains only the herpes and calici viruses but not panleukopenia virus is of value since it stimulates a local mucosal (the lining of the respiratory tract) immunity very quickly and is not affected by maternal antibodies. Therefore, it can be given to kittens younger than the traditional 8 weeks of age.

 

thank you, dr. Lisa. I will look more closely into my local laws, but will certainly switch to the annual purevax rabies vaccine if I am correct in my belief that even indoor cats need a rabies vaccine. I now have your website bookmarked in my computer!

 

Hi-

I've tried to follow this thread but I'm afraid it's over my head. I adopted my my cat last July when he was 1. They gave him a rabies and FVRCP shot at his shelter. My vet says he's due for both again now. What should I ask for? I have no clue. Why can't I trust my vet? It seems that no vet ever knows enough. It's so freakin' scary! I am not a vet - how should I know what's good or bad for my cat? Sorry - just frustrated that there's another thing I need to research on my own besides my cat's diabetes and food issues!!! I don't want to hurt my cat by not doing the right thing.

 

Take some time to read my webpage on Vaccines. It is written in a pretty easy-to-understand dialog....at least that is the report from many people who have been kind enough to write to me after reading it.

You don't have to read the whole thing to get the gist of the subject matter.

Nobody - and sadly, not even your vet since many of them are very pro-over-vaccinate - can make these decisions for you. Outside of complying with the rabies laws, it is up to you to request (demand) that the safest vaccine choice and protocol be used for your cats.

 

Dr. Lisa-

Okay - I'm going there now. I hope to have a better understanding so that I can tell my vet how I want to handle this. Fingers crossed that I can come up with a decision!

 

After reading the vaccinations section of the site - these are my conclusions:

My two year old cat has had 3 FVRCP vax's (all when he was approx. one y/o and all before I adopted him) initial vax on 2-10, second on 6-10 and third on 7-10. After reading about the risks/benefits of the vaccine I feel more comfortable holding off on this and doing it in two years.

With regard to rabies, I have to do this in MA, I have no choice. I would like to try the 3-year vaccination to avoid the potential of him getting a sarcoma at the site of the shot.

Does this sound reasonable?

 

I only get mine rabies every 3 years and I ask that it be given in the flank rather than the scruff, just on the off chance of VAS I figure better to lose a limb should it happen than lose the cat. Perhaps I'm overly cautious but already lost one cat several years ago to what we suspect was VAS.

Mel, Maxwell, Musette & The Fur Gang

 

Traci, the 3 year vaccination has the adjuvant which you do NOT want! You would ideally like the non-adjuvant vaccine(the purevax) and that is only good for 1 year. You may have to make sure your vet has this or can get this.
And Mel, I do hope you meant that your cats get their vaccines in the limbs, not the flank. And definitely not the scruff! I lost my sweet Remi to VAS because it was in his flank, no option for limb removal to help save the cat.

 

Yes Jill, I meant limb, brain not functioning on all cylinders at the moment. Had to be up way too early today, to get hubby to work.

Mel, Maxwell, Musette & The Fur Gang.

 

No - on both counts.

Please re-read the article because I must have failed miserably with my wording that speaks out against over-vaccination.

After all of the vaccines that he has received and after reading about the duration of immunity....I am not sure why you would vaccinate him again in 2 years or give a 3 year rabies vaccine.

I know that the article is long and, believe me, i struggled with the issue of the important concepts getting lost in too much text.

I am not picking on you because I have no doubt that the important concepts are being lost on a lot of readers but I don't know what to cut from the article to make it shorter.

I struggle with this issue. So much to say but then people get lost in so many words and then miss the important points.

Drat....

 

Sorry....on an iPad which does not allow me to review the message thoroughly while typing a response.

After reading this again, I see that in 2 years it will be 3 years since his last vax but please note that when considering the DOI, this is also overkill.

Jill addressed the rabies 3 vs 1 year error.

 

Which vaccine are you talking about that has the adjuvant the rabies or the FVRCP?
Are you saying it's better to get the rabies every year? I HAVE to get it there is no choice.

 

This is all covered on my website. (As stated there several times, the FVRCP is not an adjuvanted vaccine.)

Did you read the section under "Rabies"? If you are like me, you will need to read it a couple of times - at least. I am a very slow learner and need to read things a gazzilion times before it sinks in.

Please re-read the Rabies section.

 

Dr. Lisa-

I figured I would tell my vet my thoughts and see what she said. She's a nice person and doesn't seem like she's after my money so I think if I tell her I don't want to over vaccinate him she'll agree. This is the first time (tonight) I happened upon all of this information and the first time I ever even thought about it. Until reading this thread I was going to go in and get whatever they recommended because I figured they must know something about it since this is what they studied in school and practice every day. It's very scary.

Somewhere I missed that the 3 year rabies vaccination was the "bad kind". nailbite_smile I thought getting the 3-year one would reduce the risk of sarcoma.

It seems that the recommendation is to stop the FVRCP after the cat has had his kitten doses and the one after. For rabies don't get it unless you have to. Don't get the 3-year because it has the non-live stuff in the vaccine and that causes inflamation and is bad for the cat. Get the yearly one called PureVax if you have to get it. Did I get it right this time?

 

Believe me, I feel your frustration. The fact that this thread made you stop and think....this is all I am asking for. People do not have to agree or join my 'comfort zone' which involves very few vaccines but they, unfortunately, do need to read about it and make their own decisions.

Sad, I know. For instance, my truck just broke down. Now...do I want to spend my evening trying to learn how to fix it? No, I don't. I expect my mechanic to know the best way to deal with my truck.

Unfortunately, the living body is not that cut and dried and so there are going to be areas of debate...differences of opinion...different viewpoints regarding risk:benefit analysis, etc., which means that each human needs to be somewhat in charge of their own medical care and that of their pets - to the best of their ability.

This is a very understandable mistake because *logic* would tell us that a 3 year vaccine would be better than a 1 year vaccine so this issue is a paradox. I wanted you to go back and read it because speaking from personal experience, I don't learn well or retain well if info is spoon-fed to me. I have to work for it.

Note that this is what *I* and many other vets do for their own pets. This does not mean that you have to agree with it. Note, for example, that Jess disagrees with that protocol.

Jess is worried that her cats are at a greater risk because she works for a vet but also note what I mentioned about the fact that a cat at a higher risk is no less protected than a cat a lower risk. The DOI is the same for both cats.

That said, everyone has to work within their comfort zone as stated here many times

And if I worked in a shelter atmosphere, maybe I would join Jess' protocol.

Rabies is a huge can of worms, as noted on my webpage. There are so many issues to consider.

Correct. They are all adjuvanted.

Correct.

Yes - as long as you understand that there are varying opinions regarding the frequency of the FVRCP vaccine and that the laws are very strict about rabies vaccines in some areas....and the issue of quarantine....and boarding....and that some vets will not treat a cat if they are not current on their rabies vaccine....and that rabies is a nasty fatal disease that is transmissible to humans, etc.

That said, there is no way that I would give my cats even a Purevax every year - but note that I would be breaking the law and risking a longer quarantine situation.

For those of you who have not read the webpage, my cats are not vaccinated for rabies. I have weighed out the issues and am comfortable with my decision but ECID...every case is different.

 

Sorry, I didn't mean to ignore the thread and the good discussion here.

I have seen Dr. Lappin's studies and they are very interesting. Not conclusive, but enough to make us think carefully about vaccination protocols. And as you want to avoid being the "Andrew Wakefield" ;-) , I would like to stress that I'm actually quite conservative in terms of vaccination, certainly more so than some of my coworkers. I think my dog was vaccinated three times for distemper/parvo, in 14 yrs, and my cat Dillon is similar.

I would point out, as I did in my first post, that Dr. Lappin's research shows that any injected FVRCP causes antibodies, including the first one. So to avoid it we would be talking about not vaccinating, which Dr. Lisa and I and just about everyone in the vetmed community would object to. But because of the studies' design, there is specific evidence that vaccinating a never-before-vaccinated cat causes the worrisome antibodies and inflammation. To that, I say a few things:
1 -- We need larger studies on this
2 -- This will not make me never vaccinate cats in my care. Even if the worst is proven in a wider-scale study, I would rather deal with CKD in a 14 year old cat than have him waste and die at 6 mos, 1 yr, 4 yrs, 5 yrs, 9yrs, or 13 yrs of panleukopenia. I am willing to deal with old-cat disease if my cat is given the luxury of reaching that old age with me.

I can't say I disagree with the last vaccination at 1 yr of age, just that it's not a guarantee that a cat will be protected for his or her lifetime. We haven't discussed titers in this thread -- if someone wanted to check titers, there is some ability to measure immunity from the panleukopenia titer and that is another option. If everybody does this, and almost everyone says "yeah, my cat was still protected, 10 yrs after the last shot," that would be great. If there had been challenge studies or even a handful of case reports showing that the titers did indeed guarantee in vivo immunity, that would also be great. (They should, based on the science, but I'd love it if this was shown in the real world. As we frequently say at work, when a cat's medical tests defy all logic, or they spontaneously disagree with all published works on a subject, "CATS!")

See above. And again, to me, since I work ICU/emergency and handle critically ill cats prior to their diagnosis often on a daily basis, I have to be more sure than others that a cat of mine is protected. If the risks are low to do it every 5-7-9 years -- again I'm willing to take on elderly-cat disease in my lived-to-be-elderly cat -- I'll do it. If Dr. Lappin's studies are universally true and applicable, Dillon made his antibodies with his first shot anyway.

I think this has come up before ... I never vaccinated any of my cats or fosters for rabies, as the chances of them being attacked by a wild rabid animal are so slim here in my New York apartment. But ... many people here will remember Robin's two never-vaccinated young cats were found playing with a bat that inexplicably got into the house. So all of my cats will get a single PureVax from now on (rabies immunity, measured in people, lasts an astonishingly long time in almost everyone but me). It is so very unlikely that they will encounter a bat, but we never plan on these things do we? Dillon once squeezed out the window by pushing open the air-conditioner accordion thingy, and went out on a ledge too narrow for him to turn around and jump back in. He made his way down to the ground, safely, but was outside on his own for about 14 hours before I discovered it and found him. And a rabid stray cat was found somewhat near my house the year before .... I never considered him to be at any risk of exposure, but since the best laid plans so often go awry ....

A few years ago, after my boss's dog was attacked by a raccoon in Central Park, we looked up post-potential-exposure rabies protocols on VIN and found published and unpublished reports of housecats with rabies. This also helped bump me to my single-rabies-shot-per-lifetime idea. I should note that NYC health officials allow a perfunctory 'home quarantine' so I also do not have to worry about my cat being seized and euthanized for testing should he bite the cable guy or something--I would check out local regulations to see what the protocol is in any area I moved to.

 

For those that live in areas that require rabies, what about having the vet run a titer test to see how much protection/ antibodies the cat still has from the last vaccination? I have read of several pet owners going this route since it proves that the rabies vaccine booster isn't necessarily needed again.

 

Hi Kelly

It's the vaccination itself that is legally required, not protection, if that makes sense. If the people are running titers it's probably for their own peace of mind, or as part of a travel program to rabies-free countries like the UK.

I should mention that titers can be a bit deceiving as they only measure one type of immunity, and it's possible to have a low titer but still be protected.

 

I wish I could remember the threads here - its been about a year, but someone posted up that their vet ran a titer and wrote a letter to whatever organization it was to satisfy the legal requirements. I have also seen a few posts where people that had older, or sick cats had their vet write letters explaining why it was unsafe to give the vaccine to the cat. It is something to look into at the very least. Might allow you to do a few years in between shots.

 

Oh I see. You can have a vet write a letter saying that the consequences of re-vaccination would be life-threatening, and it can be accepted legally if you are challenged.

 

Yep - this happens and I covered the bat-in-the-house....or on a porch...in my Rabies section.

Jess is right about the *legal* issue in that the above may get the authorities off your back with regard to enforcing the rabies vaccine law but the bottom line is that if your cat bites someone or is bitten by a wild animal that is not able to be tested, the cat will be considered *unvaccinated* - no matter that he has a health waiver - and the appropriate quarantine protocol will be implemented for what is rightly considered an UNvaccinated animal.