Ozy- Advice or a pat on the head

Status
Not open for further replies.
Wellness g/f; Playful and affectionate today; had a good morning nap;@+9 walking stiff legged with arched back-he hasn't done that in a while-looks painful-arthritis? something else? Ozy is ravenous tonight.
Click to expand...

Those are the comments on your SS (which I'm sure you already know, but just in case others haven't seen them)

I looked at the SS and I'm trying to figure out where the reds came from? And going from playful to looking like he's in pain when walking isn't making sense to me either...

I can see where the greens a few nights ago caused a bounce the next day. But then it looked like the bounce cleared for the most part. Then I don't see low numbers that would seem to have caused reds yesterday.

I am not sure about the dose increases. I know you want the high numbers to go away, but I'm worried about "too much too soon". I see 2 cycles on the F2.75u, but I don't think that "took" yet, so not sure about bumping up to 3.0u so soon. If this is a bounce, and if it clears all of a sudden, you might find Ozy making your life exciting when you might not expect it. I would suggest getting tests at +2 or +3 in case he does decide to drop early in a cycle. Or maybe kick it back down to 2.75u and giving that a try for another day or two?
 
Thanks Carl. He has in fact been up and down a lot the past few days. He goes from playful to painful in pretty short amounts of time. Are you aware that he has pancreatitis? He has had that for three years now; his fPL was 19.5 the beginning of July. He doesn't have acute episodes very often these days (by acute, I mean he doesn't get really sick and throw up and have diarrhea very often). He has been eating Wellness Grain/Free for about a year)and that helped.

The vet called this evening; she is also monitoring his spreadsheet and she was concerned about the spike into the 400's. She convinced me to go to 3 units. Both the high numbers and the low numbers scare me. Arrgh!

How are you doing?

donaleen
 
Hi,
Sorry, I have no advice for the numbers or dose, so..........
There there cat_pet_icon cat_pet_icon
Hope you'll be able to figure it out for Ozy.
 
We don't know if the evening of the 29th was an active cycle or not, because there was no testing after PMPS. With Neko, the worst of her bounce is often the beginning of the third cycle following the low event and if Ozy did the same, that would explain the reds. And cats can also bounce from blues. Ozy had two nice cycles in a row the day before with blues and that could have also caused a bounce. Neko's liver still has problems with two good cycles in a row. :roll: I try not to analyze too much why bounces happen, just acknowledge that they do and wait for them to pass.

I'm with Carl on going back to 2.75. Dosing with Lantus is based on the nadir, so we have to learn to ignore those PS reds, as hard as that is to do. Ozy had a nice green nadir on the 28th and the protocol says to go up by only .25 units when you have nadirs under 200.
 
I increased him to 2.75 fat after 13 cycles at 2.5, the last cycle he didn't go under 300, the board was down and I was afraid I held him too long at 2.5. I thought the nadir that mattered was the most recent one. Is that incorrect?

The vet said I should raise it because he is a big cat. They wanted him at 3 units when I raised him to 2.5.

The protocol seems straightforward but tricky...
 
donaleen

I think the initial doses were held way too long (maybe your vet suggested it) and so he built up some insulin resistance. Under the protocol, you would only raise by .25u if nadirs were less than 300. So I have to jump on the 2.75u bandwagon.

While the initial dose, if following the TR protocol, is done by weight, after that, we don't make dose increases or decreases depending on the cats weight.

It's very important to ignore those bounce numbers...don't be tempted to raise the dose based on them. When you are looking at nadirs, look back several cycles...not just the current one.

All I can say is we all live FD 24/7 and some of us have been at it awhile. Your vet probably sees a we FDs a year but no vet has the time to manage it like we do.

Where do you find the protocol tricky? Maybe we can explain it.
 
Donaleen,
I'm doing okay, and thanks for asking. This place is incredible, and the time I've spent here since Mullet crossed the bridge has done so much good for me. All the thoughts, and prayers, and vines and beautiful words are giving me a great sense of peace.

I'd 2nd what Marje asked....if part or parts of the protocol are making your head spin, please let us know how/if we can help. Just little bits at a time. Eventually, they'll all fit together. It took me a really long time to grasp how things work, and the amazing people here are the reason I understand as much as I do about TR. They have the patience of Saints!
 
Yes when I started I was following the vet instructions (start 1 unit, hold one week, do glucose curve, adjust as told). I didn't find this site and the protocol for a few weeks.

As for what is tricky, I don't understand when you decide it is a bounce and when you decide it is not. Which nadir do you pay attention to? When has he been at a dose long enough?

When I raised him to 2.75, I believed the protocol said to raise him to 3 (up .5 units) because the nadir was above 300 on the previous cycle. And I certainly thought he had been at 2.5 for, if anything, too long. But his numbers seemed too low to raise his dose.

I also thought it was safe to get a good night's sleep when his numbers were so high. I have never done well with lack of sleep. I get really really stupid. That could be part of it but the protocol seems beyond me to interpret. I want to keep him safe. I want to keep him from ketones and hypo incidents. And I do want some sleep.
 
just another perspective from a less experienced set of eyes.

PM cycle the 28th, you had some blues and greens, but those blues/greens may have been what started the bounce on the 29th that continued through the day

On the 30th you had several mid-high 100's (on 2.5u) both during AM and PM cycles. After that string of blues, you "bounced" up to that 318 mid-cycle that night, followed by the 434 at AMPS on 7/31. I think he may have just continued to bounce...from 318, to 434, and then slowly dropped thoughout that AM cycle. Instead of staying on the 2.5u does, you increased to a Fat 2.75 for your PM dose.

Giving the fat 2.75 probably brought him down into the yellows, (and possibly into the blues), through that PM cycle, but again may have triggered a bounce of the 334 you saw at AM on 8/1,, Here you shot another Fat 2.75 and once again, he got down to a blue (182) ....and possibly triggered another bounce to the mid-high pinks for his PMPS.

I'm with the others...at this point, go ahead with the 2.75 and hold it for awhile...then see how he's doing :)

His body just hasn't decided what to do with itself yet..Poor Ozy...and poor bean :sad:
 
Remember what the protocol says about

Increasing the Dose:

Hold the dose for 3 - 5 days (6 - 10 consecutive cycles) if nadirs are less than 200 before increasing the dose by 0.25 unit.
After 3 days (6 consecutive cycles)... if nadirs are greater than 200, but less than 300 increase the dose by 0.25 unit.
After 3 days (6 consecutive cycles)... if nadirs are greater than 300 increase the dose by 0.5 unit.
Click to expand...

You held the 2.5u dose 13 cycles because he had gotten some green nadirs but he looked like he was starting to lose some of his momentum. Why? Because he was bouncing and when he was clearing the bounces, he was just coming to high blue.

You want to hold every increase a minimum of six cycles unless he drops below 50. Then you decrease.
 
Marje's right in her last post. In order to go down in BG #s, you need to go up in insulin, but do so according to the protocol (every 6-10 cycles which is every 3-5 days), otherwise they can build up insulin resistance. The key is to be consistent when giving the amount of doses and for at least 3 days (6 cycles). I saw on Ozy's SS that you had given him 2.75f for 2 cycles, and then jumped to 3u the next shot. Personally, I would've held that 2.75f for at least 6 cycles, and then increased him to 3u if there wasn't a change. It doesn't give Ozy's body time to react to the 2.75f. It would've been like giving him 2.50u one time, and then jumping to 3u the next, instead of giving him 0.25u which is between the 2. You can't be impatient to see the results. You have to have a lot of patience, and allow Ozy's body time to react to the new doses, whether they're increases or decreases. You'll learn to read Ozy, and know what makes his #s go up and down (for example insulin and food amounts may change his BG's), and you'll adjust either or both accordingly. Just have a lot of patience, and you'll get there. It simply takes a lot of time to get a kitty regulated. Some kitties become regulated quicker than others. Some kitties are OTJ quicker than others. It's up to Ozy what he decides. You'll learn him. Just hang in there, ok? :-D :YMHUG:
 
Well, thanks for all your efforts. I am NOT impatient and that is not why I changed his dose. I am afraid. I am afraid of ketones and of hypos. I am even more afraid because I do not understand how to make the decisions myself. I can't calm down because I don't know what to do. I hated it when the board was down for 24 hours. I checked all the time. And then yesterday I put a question mark on my condo and got no response to my question.

Almost every moment of every day I am asking myself whether I should be testing now. I feel I am testing him all the time. And yet one of the responses said I didn't have enough data. How much is enough? What should the testing schedule be or how does one decide when to test?

I can't figure out whether you think I held him too long at 2.5 or not.

I am keeping the ketone strips close at hand. People say test for ketones frequently when they bg is high. I managed to test him two days ago but did not manage to catch him yesterday. Today I have the cat box in the room with me and he just peed but by the time I got there, it was too late. My husband is telling me all the time that I test too often. He says he is at 222 today, why am I trying to test his ketones? Why am I? Because I don't know what frequently means or how long after a bout of high numbers I should still be checking.

And then there is the pancreatitis and deciding when he is pain and should have pain relief.

Last evening after his +11 test, I was writing another topic about what I should do for his evening dose when the vet called. I was so glad to hear from her because it was now one hour until his insulin shot and I wasn't sure what to do.

My husband is yelling at me because I am listening to people who don't have a life and are still testing 10-12 times a day after 3-4 years.

I am terribly stressed about this. I need to understand what to do. I need a clear picture so I can make decisions reasonably assuredly for most of the time. I don't have that.
 
Donaleen, we all understand the frustration, believe me, and we've all been where you're at right now. The amount of testing that you're currently doing is great, and is needed. It helps to provide information with regards to how Ozy's doing, and frankly, you're doing a wonderful job. With regards to a testing schedule, I'm not sure if there is one. All I know is that one should at least get the PS tests done before giving the shot (which is, of course, is needed), and at least 1 mid cycle test done.

The reasoning behind the frequent testing is simply this. You don't want Ozy to drop too low, and not catch it. With your frequent testing that you're doing, you're helping to keep him out of danger. I remember in the beginning when Blackie went to 21. This was done the first day I started her SS (her 2010-2011 SS), just newly learned how to test. How did I know that something was wrong with her? I watched her wobble as she walked like a drunken sailor. That's when I tested her, and found that 21. What did I do to help bring her out of danger? I got help from on here to help bring her out of danger and gave her Karo syrup, and HC food. She was back up from the 21. Yes, she was high, and that's ok because I learned how to handle it over time, and she hasn't gone back down that low again. Granted, she's had a few 40's but again, and I learned through a fluke that her own food instead of the LC or MC food helps to bring her back up. The reason why I keep testing Blackie after 3 years of her diagnosis? I don't want her to drop to the point of hypoglycemia again. So, yes, testing IS very important. My husband doesn't want to learn how to take care of Blackie (Blackie doesn't really like him anyway), so he leaves it up to me.

We don't want your Ozy to end up as low as Blackie went. There are tons of people on here that have much more knowledge than I do about dosing advice, etc. All I can provide for you is my advice, what little I have of it anyway, to help you, along with others, help Ozy get better, and get regulated. It's all a matter of trial and error.

With regards to ketones, you can do it once a day or once every other day, or however often you want to do it in a week's time. In order to help with keeping ketones at bay, you can do what I, and many others do and add a bit of water to Ozy's food each time (I give Blackie 4 tsps. 6x/day, and then 8 tsps. with her snack, and yes she does pee a lot! :lol:), however, she's negative in ketones.

I don't know what it's like to have a kitty with pancreatitis, and for that I'm sorry to hear that Ozy has it. All I can wish is for him to make a full and speedy recovery.

Take a deep, relaxing breath, and continue testing like you've been doing, and follow the protocol. You ARE getting some very wonderful information. It WILL all come together. Don't give up. Ozy needs you to help him. :YMHUG:
 
((((((donaleen)))))

I agree...deep breath. Managing FD is stressful at first. We've all been there....we totally understand your frustration and anxiety.

I am very sorry you didn't get a response yesterday. I really am. Some days, we are all just busy with life. And yes, even those of us who test alot have one ;-) ;-) :-D :-D we do the best we can. It is rare for one of us to not be on. It's possible your post just slipped to the bottom so don't be afraid to bump your own posts up. Just open your condo, click on "post reply", type "bump" in the text box and click "submit".

FWIW, I think you did fine on holding the 2.5u dose. He was getting into some greens and blues and so you should have held it longer than six cycles to see what he could do with it. Don't stress about that.

Maybe if I offer a few suggestions, it will help. I'm sure others will chime in.

First, I would try to get one ketone test every day that he is in yellow or higher numbers. Just try. If you can't, then get it the next day. Don't stress out. Just try.

Second, I'd take the clues from the numbers. Try and get a +2 every cycle. If its higher than PS, test again at midcycle if its during the day. If its the same or lower than PS, you might want to test sooner depending on how much he's dropped since PS. Even if he gets a high number at PS, still grab a +2 or at night, grab a before bed test. Always. We've seen cats go from 300 to 40 to 300 in one cycle and without any test in between the 300s, you would never have know how low they went but a +2 or before bed will let us know if they started down and might give us a clue to any bounce.

Try to keep the testing simple. If his BG is up, just grab a +2 and a mid cycle or before bed. If its dropping, you will want to test a bit more. If it's flat, you don't have to test so much if its high. Remember that any test can vary by 20% so if he's at 350 at PS and 280 at +2, that's a similar number. If its lower (green), we can help you decide when to test until you learn.

Third, you are testing and you have food to manage numbers with. So that puts YOU in control :-D clinical hypos on Lantus, when following a protocol such as this where we methodically raise and lower in small increments, are extremely rare. Especially when you are hometesting. Everyone worries about hypos and we do need to be careful. It's one of the hardest things about this journey....the worry about hypos. Be informed but don't make yourself sick.

Fourth, study his SS and try to learn his patterns. We don't just say "Know Thy Cat" for no reason. We can help you determine the patterns. Some cats are very predictable and their caregiver can test less. Some others, like my Gracie, are a little less predictable and I will test to keep her safe. Visit other condos and look at other SSs.

Fifth, work it out with your DH. Believe me, this journey is much easier if you have a partner. Mike does as much of the testing and feeding as I do. He's involved in every decision of raising or lowering the dose and he understands the protocol. He knows how to draw a dose and shoot and he does it. There are many other DHs in this group that do the same. FD is stressful enough at first and working as a team helps decrease that stress.

Of course, as Angela said, there are some DHs that don't want to be involved. That's fine, too, as long as you two understand and get to a similar philosophy on how you will handle the FD. IMHO.

Sixth, Read and reread the protocol. Make a list of questions. I drove people crazy with my questions but I learned. Knowledge is power...let us know specifically what you don't understand. Be sure it's really evident in your subject line that you need help. It catches our eyes more if you have the subject line as most of us do. For example:

8/2 Ozy AMPS 222 DOSE ?

Some days we are busy helping members whose cats are low and a dose ? can usually wait one more cycle unless it needs to be reduced. We try to not let questions go unanswered but we have more new members now than I can remember in a long time. And....we all have our own diabetic cats. Often when we are helping someone with their cats low numbers, we are also dealing with our own cats low numbers :-D

We want to help you feel better about this journey and get Ozy into remission. :-D
 
Hi Donaleen {{{HUGS}}}

I'm not going to try to confuse you more (well, much more) as you've gotten some good advice here from others, but I think I might be able to add one piece to the puzzle that I'm not sure you're understanding.

On Lantus, the PS numbers aren't all that important. The numbers that determine the dose are the nadirs (the point in the cycle where the Lantus is working BEST). I know our instincts are to see those high numbers at PS times and go "Oh no!! Kitty needs more insulin!!!". Lantus doesn't work that way. It takes 3-5 days (6-10 cycles) to determine if the SAME dose is working or not, which is why it's important to hold the same dose for the entire time....UNLESS Ozy drops below 50...in that case, he would "earn" a reduction of .25 unit, and the whole 3-5 day schedule would restart.

Always get a PS number, and if at all possible, a +2. If the +2 is a lot higher, then try to get at least 1 more test somewhere else in the cycle...like around +5 to +8. If the +2 is a low lower, test more often....and,if that little voice inside tells you something just isn't right, do a test, but if you can just get the 2 PS tests, the two +2 tests, and one mid-cycle during the day, and one before bed at night, that's a good place to start...especially if you're feeling overwhelmed or don't have the support of your DH

As for ketone testing, lots of us are challenged with that. You do the best you can. If you can get a test every day, GREAT! If you can get one every other day, GREAT!! If you can get one every 3 days, GREAT!! Try not to put so much pressure on yourself. The other option you might want to consider is a blood ketone meter that will test both glucose and ketones from blood instead of urine. If chasing Ozy around all day with a spoon isn't you idea of fun, you might want to go that way. :-D

The members here WILL do their best to help you, and after dealing with feline diabetes with their own (and in some cases helped hundreds of others with theirs) really do keep right on top of the latest information on this disease. That's something the vast majority of vets just don't have the time to do.

The first rule here, is to keep kitties SAFE...Managing the diabetes just takes time. We'd all like our kitties to be perfect yesterday, but that's just not usually the way it works. You have all our support!
 
Thank you Angela and Marje and Chris (I think we were posting at the same time). I've got the ketones rules now. That helps. And the testing guidelines help, too.

I have been testing him before bed, which is usually PM+3 hrs. I also have been testing him when I get up in the night to pee. And a few nights I have set the alarm to test more often. Those are the tests that kill me. I guess because I am forced awake by the alarm at a time in my sleep cycle when I don't want to wake up.

My DH (John) does participate. He fills the syringe. He hold Ozy while I give the insulin. He hates/fears needles so he doesn't do any testing or injections. But he is also on me a lot about too much testing. At least now I have some guidelines to point to.

He has been more difficult to test lately. He isn't bleeding as easily as he did and so it can take more than one poke. I thought the ears were supposed to learn how to bleed, but his are doing the opposite.

Marje, I will be reading your post more closely and several times.

I thought I did fix the subject line so it said I wanted guidance. I know higher numbers are not as scary as really low numbers and I don't want to be a pest. I just want to do the right thing.
 
Check the size of your lancets. Most of the "kits" we buy when we first start come with 31's...the higher the number, the smaller the needle (confusing, isn't it?)

Look for a box of "alternate test site" lancets...they're usually 26-28, so the needle is bigger and will make a little bit bigger poke. Once Ozy's ears "learn to bleed", you can try going back to the smaller, higher gauge lancets

China has one ear that now bleeds fine with the 31's.....I'm still having to use the 28 to get the other ear to cooperate...and I occasionally have to stick her twice no matter what ear. I saw some videos that had quite a few people doing 2 pokes close together each time....each poke produced a tiny drop, but as they "ran together", a bigger drop was formed
 
You aren't a pest. Far from it ;-)

If he is not dropping at +3 (your before bed test) and he's still pink or mid to high yellow, I wouldn't test again. Get your rest while you can. When numbers start coming down, you might need to get some other night time tests. Don't get exhausted now when he's high.
 
Donaleen . . . I will add a "pat on the head" :smile:

Believe me, I understand the frustration. Have you seen Papaya's spreadsheet? Dive, bounce, all over the map. But that helps answer the "when should I test" question too, and like other posters have said, it really has to be according to YOUR cat. Papaya's nadir is usually around +5 or +6, so if I have sort of middle-of-the-road numbers at PS, +5 or +6 will give me the best data on how low the cycle has gone. If she starts off in blue (or green) I will test very frequently to keep her safe. BUT I've learned that if she starts off high - and until recently it's hasn't been all that unusual for her to start off in black - she will keep dropping until much later in the cycle. So for her, if she starts off really high, I'll try to get a +7 or +8 but I might not do much testing before that. That's just Papaya. So all the testing you're doing now will help you figure out FOR OZY what numbers will tell you that you can lay off testing until later, and which numbers you need to keep a really close eye on.

And frankly, if you occasionally get told "there's not enough data" even when you are testing a lot, remember that on occasion that is the only thing people can offer when they sincerely want to be able to give you an answer for why your cat is doing what it's doing, but they just can't! My dad sells computers. When people have problems with a computer he ALWAYS tells them to turn it off and reboot to see if that will solve the problem . . . it may or may not help, but it's the first thing to try. Telling you to get more data sometimes may be the same - it's the first thing to try in case there's a really easy solution like some unseen low numbers, and it gives the person who's trying to answer your question a bit more time to think about what other solution there may be! "Maybe" the blood sugar went down lower than you realize between the tests you took, but on the other hand maybe that's just something to blame the numbers on when you really can't see any other reason.

I by no means test hourly, but I think I do test enough to know what's going on. Papaya bounces all over the place, and sometimes when I've asked for suggestions, I get people who will look back at many months of data and stick their finger at one spot and say basically "well, six months ago there was one cycle when you went to bed and it's possible that she dropped lower than you know". Give me a break! Yes, sometimes you may miss one number, but sometimes it's unavoidable and you just have to keep moving forward and doing the best you can with the plentiful data you DO have. So if that's the response you get, step back and look at the overall picture. As long as you are getting regular mid-cycle tests and have a good idea of when nadir is, don't feel that you have to test hourly like some people on this board manage to do. If Ozy is low, yes, you have to test that frequently until you see him rising again just to keep him safe, but if he's in flat pinks or yellows, you should be able to take a break . . . and again you will eventually get a feel for when that's okay to do.

Take a deep breath and remember this is just the first month of essentially learning another language . . . it takes lots of effort (and sometimes lots of repetition to make things stick in your mind) at the beginning but everything you learn makes the rest easier.
 
Almost every moment of every day I am asking myself whether I should be testing now. I feel I am testing him all the time. And yet one of the responses said I didn't have enough data. How much is enough? What should the testing schedule be or how does one decide when to test?
Click to expand...
Hi Donaleen,
I am going to try to inject some "calm". Because, well, that's sort of "what I do"...or try to do anyway ;-)

You have plenty of tests. You're testing more often than many do.

What you need to do is lose the "fear" you mentioned. Fear of low numbers, and fear of ketones. They don't need to feared. They need to be respected, and you need to know what they mean. And you need to know what to do if and when you see them. Then you deal with them and kick their a$se$. ;-)

What do you do when you see a low number? You feed it, using the right level of carbs, and you test again 30 minutes later. It can be a stressful few hours, and then when it's over, you smile like this :mrgreen: and you say "well, that wasn't THAT bad.". And the next time, it's easier. And after you've done it a few times, you're on the board at three in the morning helping some new member get thru his or her first time with low numbers.

What do you do if you see ketones? It depends on the color of the stick. But for the most part, you post "KETONES!!!" here, and somebody will help you. You make sure kitty is getting enough food, enough water, enough insulin, and you test again next trip to the litter box. And you probably set up an appt the next day so that the vet can test for any infection and if needed, give sub-q fluids.

When to test? Shot time. And I believe in a +3 test myself, if you are around to get one. After that, it depends what you see at +3. If you see a significant drop, you test again at +4 and you feed carbs based on how low it is. HC if it's really low, or if the drop in BG is really big. And usually by that time, if you've put the numbers on your subject line, someone will see the crisis and be here for you.
If you don't see a big drop at +3, then test again at +6. If it still looks good, then put away the meter until PMPS.

At night, same thing. Get a +3 or a before bed test. And let the numbers dictate when and if you need to test.

Bottom line? You need 4-5 tests in a 24 hour period in order to have a good feel for how things are going. And a curve or mini-curve once a week. Beyond that, you'll need tests at times that will be prompted by the numbers you see.

My husband is yelling at me because I am listening to people who don't have a life and are still testing 10-12 times a day after 3-4 years.
Click to expand...

Your husband is feeling left out, or he's resentful that this is taking your time away from "him". It's something he is going to have to get past. Either he accepts your "reality" and tries to take part. Or he sulks. I'm guessing his comment is felt by many spouses, whether it gets said or not. And it's pretty insulting and insensitive towards all the people who have been here for a long time. We all do have lives. Some are really hectic and busy and fulfilling lives. Yet we are here, and we volunteer our time day and night, and most of those hours are spent trying to help people deal with this insanity that has taken over their lives. And trying to convince them that it doesn't need to consume them. It would be really awesome if he decides to chip in and lessen your stress rather than resent all of this. I personally believe that Bob getting diabetes is the best thing that ever happened "to me". It changed my life and made me a better person.

Carl
 
Thank you Amy and Carl. Thanks especially for the calming. I needed that. Thank you ALL for the support. Things seem clearer now.

Ozy spent some time sleeping in my lap. That helped, too. Now he is back to hiding.

As to John, yes, I think what he said was unfair and not at all supportive. I think even hearing himself say it out loud made him see it in an unattractive light. Still, he questioned why I was testing again at 3.5 (I missed 3 cuz Ozy and I were cuddling). I told him I wanted to be sure Ozy wasn't plummeting after the recent dose changes. And he did ask why I did a ketone test since his numbers aren't so high any more.

I think the information and support here are amazing. I do want to become more self supporting and knowledgeable and able to help others. Thank you Carl, Amy, Marje, Wendy, Mariko, Chris, and Angela for all your responses to this post; you are helping me achieve my goal.

This post will become a touchstone for me. I will read it again and again.

donaleen
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top