12/2 Portia AMPS 202 +3.5 215 Rayne roo nutritional analysis

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portiarita

Member Since 2013
Hi all,
Previous condo: viewtopic.php?f=9&t=108558

Its been a while since I last posted but I just wanted to get your input on something. As you can see Portia's numbers have been ok (not great but ok). She's currently on 2U in the am and 1 U in the pm. My vet and I had a long conversation today about her condition and have decided to try a new diet from Rayne clinical nutrition which is much lower in carbs than z/d (which is 40% carbs!!!!). Tha kangaroo diet is 7.6% carbs (on dry matter basis) which is a huge improvement. However, that will only come in by next week so till then she'll be on z/d. Her vet feels that since she's already on a high carb diet and she's a very poor eater, she doesn want her BG to be very low since she could easily become hypo if she doesn't eat (which is very often. I need to spoon feed her 3/4 meals every day). However, she still has plenty of glucose spilling into her urine (my vet said renal threshold was around 200). So she wanted to increase her pm dose by 0.5U. I was wondering what you guys thought about that. I know Lantus protocl is for increments of 0.25U/dose (so a total of 0.5U/day) but since her am dose is currently higher than pm dose can I just do a 0.5U increase on her pm dose? If not, how do I accurately measure 0.25U on the Terumo 0.5U syringe?

Thanks again for your help.
Rita
 
Re: 12/1 Portia AMPS 202 +4.5 228 glargine increase?

Hello Rita, good to hear from you again. Lantus does best when kitty gets the same dose in the morning and evening. It's not like some of the faster acting insulins where you can do a lower dose in the evening. When my kitty was on Caninsulin, the vet had me do a lower dose in the evening because I wouldn't be awake to monitor. Lantus with uneven doses can give wonky numbers. I guess that's a long winded way of saying it's OK to up the evening dose to the same as the morning dose, as long as you are getting at least a before bed test in the evening. I notice you don't have many tests at night.

I did do a bit of research on Rayne - since they are headquartered near me. I asked a friend in the manufactured pet food business and she has heard of them. And I've seen some vet clinics with good reputations carry their product. Hopefully it'll help Portia and has got to be better than z/d. Paws crossed she loves the kangaroo as much as mine do.

ETA: When you do switch to the Rayne food, you'll have to monitor closely as the change in carbs could have quite an impact on her insulin needs.
 
Re: 12/1 Portia AMPS 202 +4.5 228 glargine increase?

Hi Rita. Couple of things come to mind. First, be very careful when you switch to the lower carb food. That alone can bring Portia's numbers way down. Be diligent in your testing and you may even ponder lowering the dose when you switch over. Secondly, Lantus is a depot insulin and works best if you have the same dose morning & night. If it were me, I would do 1.5u AM/PM for a few cycles and see what that does. I am not a dosing expert, so we should let some others weigh in on that. Portia's numbers aren't too shabby! Great work!
 
Re: 12/1 Portia AMPS 202 +4.5 228 glargine increase?

I just read Tara's reply - and I like her solution better. !.5U both morning and night is a great suggestion.
 
Re: 12/1 Portia AMPS 202 +4.5 228 glargine increase?

Hi Tara and Wendy,
Thanks for your responses. Ok. Ill try 1.5-1.5 and see how that works before changing.
@Wendy: thanks for looking into Rayne. Im glad to hear that there are no red flags. I really hope she likes the roo diet as well. The nutritional profile is great( atleast based on the high protein and low carb, I do wish the fat was a little lower since Portia's cholesterol is off the charts... but 2 out 3 is not bad). I will be very gradually transitioing her diet. Probably over a month since Portia is very sensitive to food change. I will monitor her more carefully when I do start. I want to test more at night but what happens is, I give her insulin at 8pm and then want to test around +5-+6 because thats when she begins to drop if at all. I even sleep on the couch to make sure I wake up but I never do!!!! Im such a sound sleeper at night:( I have been trying and hopefull will get better at this!

Thanks all
Rita
 
Re: 12/1 Portia AMPS 202 +4.5 228 glargine increase?

I know what you mean about sleeping through tests :roll: I had an idea the other day to maybe try drinking a big glass of water before going to sleep? I haven't tried it yet :lol: Good luck with the change!
 
Re: 12/1 Portia AMPS 202 +4.5 228 glargine increase?

Portia's numbers are not bad at all. However, I would encourage you to get a test each and every night before you go to bed. I would not in good conscience suggest you increase the dose if you are not getting at least one PM test on a regular basis.

I do agree that giving 1.5u twice a day is a much better strategy for Lantus. A long-acting, depot-type insulin like Lantus works best if you give the same dose twice a day.

One word of caution that I want to underscore. When you change over Portia's diet, I would drop her dose. Given how high the carb level is with the Z/D and how low the Rayne is, you could easily be over dose with a low carb diet. You may want to use the formula for calculating the initial Lantus dose (dose = 0.25 x ideal weight in kilograms) when you're ready to switch.
 
Re: 12/1 Portia AMPS 202 +4.5 228 glargine increase?

Hey Sienne,
Thanks for the heads up about the diet change and decreasing the dose. I will try and be more diligent about night testing. I say that all the time and then just fall asleep. But I wil make more of en effort.
Thanks
Rita
 
Re: 12/1 Portia AMPS 202 +4.5 228 glargine increase?

I truly understand falling asleep!! If a +2 occurs while you're still more awake, that's often a good test to get. If the +2 is markedly lower than your pre-shot test, it is a heads up that Portia's numbers may be dropping and you're looking at an active cycle. Many cats experience lower numbers at night so you want to be able to take advantage of the test data so you can keep Portia safe.
 
Re: 12/1 Portia AMPS 202 +4.5 228 glargine increase?

Rita

If the food is 7.6% carbs on a DMB, that does not tell you the % calories from carbs which is what we look at. A food that is 7.6% carbs on a DMB could still be quite high in terms of % calories from carbs.

If you can get the % fat and % protein on a DMB, I can calculate the actual % calories from each so you have an accurate amount for the food.

If I don't get right back, please PM me that the info is on the condo and I'll post here :-D
 
Re: 12/1 Portia AMPS 202 +4.5 228 glargine increase?

Hi Marjie,
So the calorie distribution for Rayne kangaroo diet says 59% protein, 34% fat and 7.6% carbs. Is it possible to have the same carbs % by DMB and calorie distribution?
However, For Z/d I can only find the DMB which is 33.7% protein, 18% fat and 40% carbs. Would you be able to tell me how to calculate the calorie distribution for z/d so I can compare better.
Thanks
Rita
 
Re: 12/1 Portia AMPS 202 +4.5 228 glargine increase?

Rita

I've not heard the term "calorie distribution"; while one could assume it's the same as % calories and has already been converted from DMB or as-feds, I, personally, always feel better when I can calculate it myself from the DMB or as-fed values. I've done many, many of these and I've not ever seen the DMB or as-feds be the same as the % calories. But, never say never.

For the z/d, when I run the calculator on the DMB values you gave, I get: 29.5% calories from protein, 35.5% calories from fat, and a whopping 35% of calories from carbs.

On the Rayne kangaroo diet, are you looking at the Low Fat Diet? If so, it shows the calorie distribution to be quite different than what you posted and it has as-feds. I ran them in the calculator and got close to what they show as the calorie distribution. The % calories from carbs is quite high. I just did a cursory search and that's the only Rayne kangaroo food I found, but, again....it was a quick search.

I have to run out for just a bit but I'll check back in later today if you find something else on the numbers.
 
Re: 12/1 Portia AMPS 202 +4.5 228 glargine increase?

Hi Marje,
Thanks for checking. So Portia is getting the kangaroo and butternut squash maintenance diet (not therapeutic, which is not intended for long term feeding). Here's what got from the website:
Guaranteed Analysis As Fed %
Crude Protein(min) 15.0
Crude Fat (min) 3.0
Crude Fiber(max) 2.0
Moisture(max) 80.0

Calorie distribution (which I assume means the percent Calorie since the numbers add up to a 100)
58.3% Protein– 34.3%Fat– 7.4%Carbohydrate
The DMB is :
Crude protein: 64.2%
carbohydrate (NFE)-7.6%
Crude fat: 15.5%

I went on catinfo.org and checked out how to obtain % calorie assuming 3.5 cals/gm protein and carb and 8.5cals/gm fat. Using those numbers I got:

% of calorie from protein: 58%
% of calorie from fat: 34%
% of caolrie from carb: 6.9%

These numbers are very close to what they have listed as calorie distribution. Does this look right to you?

Thanks again for your help

Rita
 
Re: 12/2 Portia AMPS 202 +3.5 215 Rayne roo nutritional anal

You got it!!! The calculator I have uses the conversions of 4 cals/gm for protein and carbs and 9 for fat if the ingredients are human grade. So I got the same basic numbers you did :-D :-D :-D
 
Re: 12/2 Portia AMPS 202 +3.5 215 Rayne roo nutritional anal

Thanks Marje,
Do you think that nutrition profile looks decent for a diabetic. I mean its infinitely better than z/d Im sure but compared to what you guys feed your cats?
Rita
 
Re: 12/2 Portia AMPS 202 +3.5 215 Rayne roo nutritional anal

i saw you had a condo open and just wanted to say hi. i'm glad you've found something with lower carbs than the z/d.

sienne's right about monitoring as you switch the diet to a lower carb food. it can make a significant difference in dose, so we don't want you to get caught with this unexpectedly. i used 18% carb food to pull up punkin when he got into low numbers and 4-5% foods for regular meals.

i'm not well-versed on the nutrition side so will let marje or someone else address your nutrition question.
 
Re: 12/2 Portia AMPS 202 +3.5 215 Rayne roo nutritional anal

I think it looks really good. The carbs are not too high and sometimes kitty's do better in that 4-8% range. I really like the lower fat ....that's great! I'd give it a try but, as Julie said, I'd monitor closely. That's a big change in % carbs.
 
Re: 12/2 Portia AMPS 202 +3.5 215 Rayne roo nutritional anal

Hi Julie and Marje,
Thanks for the input. I will be introducing the new diet very very slowly (over a period of a month). Hopefully that slow introduction should help with getting a handle on her BG as she transitions.

I have a question. Do you guys buy Relion Micro test strips wholesale from anywhere? I cant find them on ADW and on amazon, they are about $40 for a 100. Is that what you guys pay?

Rita
 
Re: 12/2 Portia AMPS 202 +3.5 215 Rayne roo nutritional anal

Hi Wendy,
Great!!!Do those strips read differently than the micro or are they highly comparable in terms of absolute values?
Thanks
Rita
 
Re: 12/2 Portia AMPS 202 +3.5 215 Rayne roo nutritional anal

The strips are the same as the Relion/Micro strips which are made by Arkray, but relabelled for sale in Walmart. I've used both the Arkray and Relion strips in my meter and not noticed any difference.
 
Re: 12/2 Portia AMPS 202 +3.5 215 Rayne roo nutritional anal

There exactly the same strips just they haven't been labeled for Walmart. Kind of like if two people can green beans from the same garden but one person sticks a fancy personalized label on their jars. Exactly the same green beans just different packaging.

Mel and The Fur Gang
 
Re: 12/2 Portia AMPS 202 +3.5 215 Rayne roo nutritional anal

Perfect. On ADW they are sooo much cheaper. This is great!
thanks
Rita
 
Re: 12/2 Portia AMPS 202 +3.5 215 Rayne roo nutritional anal

I get my Relion micro test strips in ebay for about $13/50. I haven't had a chance to check and see if the micro and Arkray Glucocard strips use the same assay method.
 
Re: 12/2 Portia AMPS 202 +3.5 215 Rayne roo nutritional anal

@Rita - I saw some of the Rayne dog food product on the shelves at my favorite pet food store today. And it's recommended by one of the best vets in North Vancouver. Someone I trust, but can't get into because she has a waiting list for new clients. I know her outside of the vet office, and also through the shelter I worked/volunteered at.

@Marje - I checked my Relion and Arkray packaging. Not only the same assay/reagent composition, but interestingly enough, also the same US patent #. Relion is just a trademark used under license by Arkray in the US.
 
Re: 12/2 Portia AMPS 202 +3.5 215 Rayne roo nutritional anal

Thanks, Wendy. I appreciate you taking that time....I just hadn't done it.
 
Re: 12/2 Portia AMPS 202 +3.5 215 Rayne roo nutritional anal

Hi Wendy. Thats really encouraging. I just got the Roo diet in. Will start the transition today. Probably one teaspoon/day for the few days and then slowly increase. Im defening my PhD thesis tomorrow so Ive been extrmely busy the last few days and have hardly been at home to test Portia's BG. It will be better from tomorrow. So maybe, Ill just wait till I can test her more often to start the diet change. Thank you so much for thinking to write to me about Rayne. Its great to hear that the reviews are good. I guess this is naive of me but Im really hoping changing her diet will solve all her problems. Probably wont, but it cant hurt to be optimistic right??

Thanks again.
Rita
 
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