2/17 Trixie PMPS 136 +2 101 +4 106 - Frankie Pic

Yesterday

Meh....we'll see if she settles in to this dose - sometimes it does take a while, whether it's a reducie or an increase. Given these numbers, I think I will give her a pokey break today.

I have a question about Rescue Remedy. As many of you know, my civvie Frankie has issues with night time separation anxiety. For those unfamiliar, here's a recap of our situation:

For years, we slept with the bedroom door closed - we figured that with 6 cats, we'd never get any sleep if we let them in. We never had a problem with any of them wanting to come in at night.

Then, shortly after Trix's diagnosis (just over 3 years ago now), Frankie started to scratch at our bedroom door at night - she just wanted to see us. It was probably some sort of reaction to Trixie getting some extra attention, although Frankie doesn't "present herself" as a needy cat in that way. Anyway, Zen - who IS a needy cat in that way - saw that Frankie was now getting extra attention, too, so he kicked things up a notch and started wailing outside the bedroom door. Now the beans are really suffering from broken sleep!!

(Side note: They're all almost 11 years old; this all started when they were about 8. We've had them since they were kittens.)

Last year, we decided we would cave and start letting the cats in the bedroom with us at night - but the room needed to be cat-proofed first. However, we made the huge mistake of letting Zen come in with us for a few nights before we got the cat-proofing done (he's needy, but not nosy - unlike Frankie who gets into everything, we figured he wouldn't get into "trouble" with the room not being cat proofed yet). Huge, huge mistake. In just a couple nights, he became insanely territorial about the bedroom, so when we did get the room cat-proofed and tried to let the others in a few days later, it was a VERY ugly scene - one that I care to never ever repeat.

So, since then, Zen sleeps with us (because when he wails outside the door, he does it until it sounds like he's going to be physically ill), Frankie scratches, and DH and I take turns getting up to try and sooth her. It's rough. Occasionally, on a good night, we get 4 hours of uninterrupted sleep. We used to get breaks for a few weeks,then she'd flare up again, but we haven't gotten a break now in ages.

We can't ignore Frankie's scratching for a few reasons: It is LOUD. It is heart-wrenching. And, if we let it go for too long, another civvie, Petey, tackles her - we can't let THAT grow into a permanent situation, too. We've tried bedtime snacks. We've tried Feliway. We've tried playing with her for a couple hours to tire her out. We've tried calming her by turning off the TV and all the lights and laying on the couches until she dozes off. So far, nothing works. She can be completely passed out, but the second we try to go to bed, she wakes up. She seems completely unphased about us going to work, though.

I guess another option is to try and desensitize Zen from his thought that he owns the bedroom :roll: ...but that one night was absolutely horrible and I admit that I am really afraid to try letting the others in again because I don't want to bring about a state of permanent discord. BTW, everyone gets along great outside the bedroom, aside from the natural occasional scuffle. Heck, Zen doesn't even care if Frankie pushes him out of his food bowl, but he will NOT let her in that bedroom. She's also fine if one of us sleeps on the couch...but obviously that is not a good permanent solution, either.

I was wondering if Rescue Remedy may be an option to try. I've never used it, so I'd love it if you guys could share your thoughts.

My cold is definitely better, but still hanging on by a thread. So annoying...be gone already!!! And, we're supposed to get a few more inches of you-know-what tonight. Grrrr.

I'm off today...errands are on the docket. Thanks for listening to me, and I do appreciate any thoughts on possibly trying RR for Frankie.

Have a great day, LL!

Amy

Re: 2/17 Trixie AMPS 160 +3.25 134 - Rescue Remedy?

Morning Amy, I hope Trixie settles into this dose.
Oh wow on Zen, Frankie and your kitty situation and all your sleepless nights. I wish I had more advice on the Rescue Remedy and hope others will stop in with experience using it. I used it on my Siamese kitty years ago, as he got so frightened any time there was a Vet visit. It seemed to calm him down when I first gave it to him, but then by the time we reached the Vet, all h... broke loose. It might be an ecid thing.
Enjoy your day off and hugs and scritches from us.

Re: 2/17 Trixie AMPS 160 +3.25 134 - Rescue Remedy?

I hope that Miss Trixie gives you a lovely surf today!

I've never tried that as we typically use a spray bottle for any instances, but we've never had to use anything with regards to the bedroom. Daisy (GA) hid in the bedroom all the time, and occasionally Groucho (her brother) would come in and bug her, but he's smart enough to know that whenever I go in there, he's to leave the bedroom, and leave her alone.

There's a few products on the market that were created by a cat behaviorist named Jackson Galaxy. They can be found on Amazon.com, and are located here:

http://www.amazon.com/s/?tag=felinediabetesfdmb-20

One of the things that I noticed was a product for bullies. Not sure if that'll help, but anything's worth a try, right? If you do try them, please let us know. Hope that helps. :YMHUG:

Re: 2/17 Trixie AMPS 160 +3.25 134 - Rescue Remedy?

I hope Trixie keeps sliding down today.

Wow on the bedroom situation. Are the kitties ever in there together during the day? Maybe that would help. I hope you can figure something out soon.

Re: 2/17 Trixie AMPS 160 +3.25 134 - Rescue Remedy?

The kitties have never been allowed free access to the bedroom. Even now, with Zen sleeping with us, he is not allowed in during the day. Basically, 3 of them have digestive issues, and we have some serious hairballers, so (call us crazy!) we never wanted that sort of "activity" to occur on the bed - so no one has any unsupervised time in the bedroom. The door is closed during the day. Zen comes in with us at night, but the door is closed then, too, since he "won't let" anyone else come in.

Thanks for the feedback so far! Ann - I was wondering about "duration"...that if we gave her a little RR, would it last through the night? It sounds like it's very short-acting.

Thanks for the links, Angela - I'll check those out! Fortunately we really don't have bullying going on...it's definitely territory and it's just over the bedroom and nothing else.

Re: 2/17 Trixie AMPS 160 +3.25 134 - Rescue Remedy?

Hi Amy,
I'm sorry I can't help you with Rescue Remedy, but I can sympathize with you. Stu was a pounder and he would pound off and on all night (and in the daytime, too). It didn't matter if the doors were closed or open. And he found the most resonant things to pound on. We were sleep-deprived for years but did more or less get used to it. There was nothing to be done! (I've never seen another cat with such upper-body strength!).

I hope you can find something that will work.

Glad that you are getting over your cold. Enjoy your snow :lol: I'm sure that Trixie will settle in to her new dose soon. That's her pattern.

Hugs, scritches,

Ella & Rusty

Re: 2/17 Trixie AMPS 160 +3.25 134 - Rescue Remedy?

Nice blues Trixie. Work that juice! I am so sorry about the bedroom situation. I know you have battled that for a long time. I haven't used Rescue Remedy but have read good things about it. Glad your cold is getting better. Sorry about more of that word that will not be mentioned. You need a break for sure. ((((Amy))))

Re: 2/17 Trixie AMPS 160 +3.25 134 - Rescue Remedy?

Ella - I remember you mentioning that about Stu! Frankie is amazing...she has stamina! She can go for hours and hours and hours. She gets her claws under the door and it is worse than nails on a chalkboard. She is slowly tunneling her way underneath it - you can literally see it :lol: ! She is strictly a nighttime pounder, so there is a connection between us going to bed and her pounding...poor girl.

While I was looking at Angela's links, I came across these calming treats...I'm going to see if I can find them today - if not, I'll mail order them. Maybe if we give them to both Frankie AND Zen, we can ultimately finally get everyone to the point where we can have the door open....maybe!

Calming Treats

Re: 2/17 Trixie AMPS 160 +3.25 134 - Rescue Remedy?

Thanks for the feedback so far! Ann - I was wondering about "duration"...that if we gave her a little RR, would it last through the night? It sounds like it's very short-acting.

Click to expand...

Hi Amy, I remember that I did a trial run with the Rescue Remedy on Mikey (GA) one evening when I was having company just to see the effects on him. I gave him the RR right before their visit, and he slept on the sofa the whole visit, which was over two hours and just seemed extra relaxed. Little Rebecca petted and talked to him, and he didn't even stir where normally he would be more interactive. It did seem short lasting with him at the Vet, or I didn't use correctly. You could give it a try one night. I hope those Calming Treats might be the solution.

Re: 2/17 Trixie AMPS 160 +3.25 134 - Rescue Remedy?

Books by Pamela Johnson-Bennett

Perhaps this one might be helpful:
Cat vs Cat

I'd be inclined to do time outs: get 1 or more 30 " long or longer crates (big enough for a modest litter box), put far from the bedroom, and every time one misbehaves, out he goes to the crate. The crate needs to be far enough away that any fussing won't disturb you.

Re: 2/17 Trixie AMPS 160 +3.25 134 - Rescue Remedy?

Nice blue cycle Trix!
Amy, I too am sympathizing and of no help about the RR. Love the link from Angela, and hoping the treats help. Would love to hear feedback on that. We had one territorial bedroom kitty and tried putting her in a kennel while letting the other kitties roam around and rub their scent on everything. Worked for a couple days....sigh. And most kitties hate kennels so I'm sure that wont help you.
Maybe if the beans took a couple extra nips at night they would drown the sound out??? :lol:
Big hugs and good luck. :YMHUG:

Re: 2/17 Trixie AMPS 160 +3.25 134 - Rescue Remedy?

Amy,
How about not closing the door, but use those baby gate thing instead?
This is what I mean.

Maybe she'll be fine if she can see you even if she can't get in.
I LOVE the baby gate thing.
When I close any door, Ginger or Lucy wants to go in even if they haven't gone in there for ages.
So whenever I want to block them from a particular area of the apartment, I use the gate and it doesn't stimulate their curiosity because they can see through and they don't feel interested enough to jump over it.

Re: 2/17 Trixie AMPS 160 +3.25 134 - Rescue Remedy?

A few years ago, pre-FD, our animal communicator told us Zener wanted Rescue Remedy in his water bowl while Liz was away for sabbatical. He was worried about being separated. So, whatever Zener wants, we do. ;-) There was an animal formulated version which we used. I couldn't tell much difference, because he always seems very calm anyway. So, maybe he would have been more anxious if we hadn't added the RR to his water.

Re: 2/17 Trixie AMPS 160 +3.25 134 - Rescue Remedy?

Hi, Amy, my experience with Rescue Remedy is similar to Anne & Liz's: my AC recommended having some avail. to give to Ripley before car rides, to help ease stress. Also, she recommended giving drops of Holly (an ingredient in Rescue Remedy) to our civvie ~ Smokey used to pick on Ripley, and the AC said that a couple of Holly drops in Smokey's water bowl would help Smokey relax and be more calm. (The Holly helped, but so did playing more with Smokey to help wear her out ;-) .)

Good luck with whatever you try.

Re: 2/17 Trixie AMPS 160 +3.25 134 - Rescue Remedy?

I used Rescue Remedy for Neko when we started on our trip to Fort Collins Colorado. This is a kitty that used to complain on the 10 minute trip to the vet. :roll: So the three days each way of 8-9 hours in the car was not something we were looking forward to. Neko did seem more relaxed that first day, but I also sprayed Feliway in her carrier so I'm not sure which worked. On the third day I forgot to add RR to her fuds and just did Feliway and she was OK. She's much better with travel now, without sprays or RR.

The pet version of Rescue Remedy does not have alcohol in it. But it's not available in Canada (I did a cross border trip to get it) so people here use regular RR with pets. I've found the best way to make sure it's taken in is to add it to fuds.

Any chance of getting a new special cat tree in the BR? Something some cats will want to be on so you don't have a contention over the bed. My civie will bug Neko if she's on the bed, so she pretty much stays off it now but is OK with just hanging out in the room.

Re: 2/17 Trixie AMPS 160 +3.25 134 - Rescue Remedy?

Sorry about the bedroom kafuffle going on! I hope you can find something that will work to keep all kitties happy . I like Wendys cat tree idea, and Marikos baby gate...Kims idea works too, but it may give you a headache in the morning ;-) I hope that RR will work for you if you decide to try it. I need to find something like this for when I take Chyna to the vet :roll:

Ooooh what about getting that cat swing that Michelle had in her condo awhile ago? Then you'd never sleep :lol: Sorry, random weird humor. I'm really overtierd...

Anyhoo, I hope Trixie makes it down to the lagoon, and that you have a good day off

Re: 2/17 Trixie AMPS 160 +3.25 134 - Rescue Remedy?

Amy:

I bought Rescue Remedy a few weeks ago in hopes of calming my overly-aggressive Abys. So far, I've seen no difference whatsoever.

I like Mariko's baby gate idea. If they might jump over it, another idea is a screen door. We had to use this when Harvey first started his psycho kitty thing. We put the victim, Minka, in the guest room with a screen door in place of the regular door. We started with a blanket over it, so they could smell and hear each other, but not see. We raised the blanket a little every few days until it was completely off. Once they could see each other through the door without Harvey freaking out, we started opening the door and I would sit in the doorway with Minka in the guest room and Harvey in the hall, and give them both treats. I'd give Harvey lots of praise when he behaved. It worked. I'm not suggesting you go this whole route, but the screen door on your room, which would allow those outside to see in without coming in, might calm them down.

It sounds like you've been dealing with one heck of a problem, and I wish you a lot of luck getting it solved.

Sending calming vines.

BTW, nice blue surf for Trixie.

Re: 2/17 Trixie AMPS 160 +3.25 134 - Rescue Remedy?

I was thinking along the lines of positive reinforcement. If you were to allow Zen in the BR for a while during the day and if Frankie or one of the other cats comes in to check things out, you would then distract Zen with play. I'd keep it for a brief time and then gradually expand the time. (You could also do this at night.) I tend to think that positive reinforcement will go a longer way to instill a change in behavior than negative reinforcement especially with something like territory.

Re: 2/17 Trixie AMPS 160 +3.25 134 - Rescue Remedy?

WOW - thank you for all the ideas and suggestions while I was out running errands! I did find the calming treats, so I'm going to give those a whirl first.

I completely agree with you Sienne - I don't believe in negative reinforcement at all. What you are describing is actually very similar to what we did to incorporate Trixie into the crowd. She may be a snuggler supreme now, but at the beginning, we had some blood curdling cat fights. She had become territorial about the room that she was isolated in - she spent a lot of time in there, because she had to get healthy before she could be exposed to the other kitties and before she could be spayed (she had been abandoned...'nuther story for another day). When we were finally ready to incorporate her...yikes. I had never been afraid of a cat before that day! It tooks us 6 solid months of work, every night, to get her into the crowd - worth every second of it.

DH wants to do the same thing with Zen, to get him out of his territorial mode. He's probably right, and so are you...that's what we need to do. But, things have changed a bit - he plays volleyball and swims a couple nights a week, and he crashes early on other nights (largely, in part, because of Frankie)....so, it's going to be harder to make the transition. Back when we transitioned Trix, DH was much more available in the evenings. I have to admit, the idea is a good one, but daunting enough to stress me out even more.

So, I'll consider the treats an interim thing - part of the process. If they don't work, I'll try out the rescue remedy....

The screen and baby gate sound interesting...but I really could see Frankie climbing them ...she's just that crazy :lol: !! For that reason, she's also LOVE that cat swing ... and I would NEVER sleep :shock: :shock: :lol: !!!

I'm afraid that if we got a new cat tree in there, we'd still have territorial issues - over the tree! Yesterday, I stupidly bought one nanner. Again, what was I thinking??? Within 30 seconds, there was a 3-kitty swat fest going on. I went out and bought 2 more nanners today.

I've tried Kim's idea, too (extra nip for the beans :lol: )...I'm such a light sleeper, though, that even that doesn't help!

Personally, I don't feel like anyone is particularly "misbehaving" here; they are just being cats. The get along the majority of the time, so we are very lucky. We've just got this one hurdle...and unfortunately it falls in the middle of the night. We need to work with them to make everyone feel happy, safe, and comfortable.

Re: 2/17 Trixie AMPS 160 +3.25 134 - Rescue Remedy?

I agree that both Zen and Frankie may need some calming down, whichever method you use.
And I agree on the positive reinforcement idea.
I use Rescue Remedy on both my cats on long road trips. It seems to help, but what do I know, I haven't tried them without it.

Re: 2/17 Trixie PMPS 136 - Frankie Pic

A nice glide into PMPS for Trix!

Since Frankie hijacked Trix's condo today, I figured you might as well see the little cutie patootie. She is such a sweetheart...so lovable, even at 3:00am! I took this picture a few minutes ago...she's resting up for tonight's antics! We'll see if the treats work, and DH and I have vowed to start transitioning Zen and the crew...however, he is swimming tonight. We have to do this, though....

Re: 2/17 Trixie PMPS 136 - Frankie Pic

Awww.....what a cutie patootie, so precious the way she is sleeping so soundly. I want to just hug her. You've gotten lots of good feedback today. Good luck with those treats and other methods, too. I will stay tuned.

Re: 2/17 Trixie PMPS 136 - Frankie Pic

Awwww! Frankie's so cute and soft.
What a nice pmps for Trix tonight

Re: 2/17 Trixie PMPS 136 - Frankie Pic

I keep seeing you post about volleyball and swimming and I think you are talking about Zen. :lol:
Thanks for the cute picture of Frankie. I hope all goes better tonight. Did Zen get some calming treats too?

Re: 2/17 Trixie PMPS 136 - Frankie Pic

Well, what a sweet little Frankie picture . I could just smoosh and cuddle her! I like seeing the pictures of the civies we hear about ;-) I hope Trixie has a nice slide tonight, nice PMPS! Good luck with the treats.

Re: 2/17 Trixie PMPS 136 +2 101 - Frankie Pic

We're right on the edge of the lagoon....what do ya think, Trix...one little toe maybe?

Thanks for the visits! Frankie is insanely cute and soooo playful. We do love her.

I haven't dished out any treats just yet....I was waiting till about 9:00, which is shortly before we turn in for the night. I'm going to hold off on giving any to Zen until we start the transition - then, some treats may be in order. But for now, since he's the lucky duck who "owns" the bedroom, he's actually pretty calm.

It IS pretty ironic that DH plays these summertime sports in the dead of the this horrific winter, isn't it?

Re: 2/17 Trixie PMPS 136 +2 101 - Frankie Pic

You can do it, Trxie! That is an adorable picture of Frankie. Good luck on the behavior modification. You can also stack two baby gates to make a higher barrier.
Liz

Re: 2/17 Trixie PMPS 136 +2 101 - Frankie Pic

Big LOVE on the Frankie pic

Re: 2/17 Trixie PMPS 136 +2 101 - Frankie Pic

Go Trix!!!

Aaahhhh....very sweet pic of Frankie. Hard to believe she is such a pistol at night.

I've used RR for pets before and it seems to help with car rides but I don't see enough of a response to think it might help in your situation.....but it couldn't hurt. I do like the idea of positive reinforcement.

Is there any other room away from yours that you could put Zen in or would he make so much noise somewhere else that you still wouldn't sleep.

First calming treat in...2.5 hours later and she is calm :lol: ! The treat has not lived up to its name so far, and even though she is snoozing now, I bet she wakes up when w go to bed. At this point We are 1.5 hours past our own bedtime, but we're trying to hang out and be mellow...not too successfully until a few minutes ago.

Yep, putting Zen in another room would be really rough. And, I do like having him with us. We just need to break him out of this territorial mode, which we will start working on this week . Thank you for letting me using Trix's condo to talk about this...it has given me the boost I needed to start getting this done.

Prayers continue for Rebekah and Ole...what a scary night!