9/4 Billie PMPS 207 +2 240 +3.75 159 +5 148

Hello LL!

Yesterday's condo: viewtopic.php?f=9&t=124674

We're on dose 6 of 1.75, and I'm still not seeing the numbers I want to see. She had such a nice gradual slide last night that I thought I might have a good PS to work with this morning, but I guess she bounced again. I gave her a snack at +8 with the 124 because I was going to bed and didn't want her to drop too far, so I don't think she got much lower. Should I bring her up to 2 units?

Meanwhile, she was coughing again this morning :sad: It wasn't horrible and wasn't an extended fit, but even those few coughs make me nervous. I guess I am seeing overall improvement with the coughing, but wanting to see more improvement. I also think there *might* be a couple new hives that popped up, but it's hard to say. I skipped the Zyrtec last night because I hadn't heard any coughing or much itching all evening, but I gave it to her again this morning. She's still on the ABs for another week. Can ABs raise BG? I know that infection/inflammation does, and that may be what is going on, but I'm wondering about the meds themselves.

I don't know how long it should take to see improvement after allergens are removed, so I don't know if I have pinpointed the allergen or not. We are 4 days past my anti-dust mite cleaning spree, and 2 days without duck now. I did find that all the Merrick food has "dried egg product" in it, so that could be another suspect. If she can't have any Merrick food, that will be a bummer, because it's her favorite. I tried just giving her Evo and Hound and Gatos this morning, but she didn't eat much, so I put out some Merrick and she was all over it.

Any advice is much appreciated!! I just want her to feel better and get back into normal numbers. Thank you!

Re: 9/4 Billie AMPS 259 +3.5 276 dose increase?

Okay, it's official. There are new hives. ohmygod_smile

Re: 9/4 Billie AMPS 259 +3.5 276 dose increase?

The protocol suggests holding doses ten cycles if the nadirs are below 200. If she had thrown out on or two nadirs below 200 or just dipped her toes below 200, I'd say increase. but since she's spent several hours below 200 (and even nadired once in green) all but one cycle, I might hold the dose just a wee bit longer. She might end up needing more insulin but let's try not to rush it.

Did you get the Allerplex yet? Unless a/bs have sugar added, they shouldn't raise the BG but ECID.

Also....I'd hold off on the peppermint spray. I hope the spray was not from an essential oil. Essential oils can be toxic to cats. Cats are very sensitive to fragrances, etc. We don't even burn any kind of candles in our house including soy candles. Not to make you worry because just using it once/twice as you have is not an issue (although it could cause her to cough more) but I wouldn't use it anymore. IMHO.

Re: 9/4 Billie AMPS 259 +3.5 276 dose increase?

Deanna, I'm starting to wonder if you should see a dermatologist. Otherwise I'd eliminate everything new you have fed and ointments etc. Then see whether the hives go away for good and if it hopefully works add things back one at a time. I'm so sorry the hives returned. Allergies are so hard to figure out.

Re: 9/4 Billie AMPS 259 +3.5 276 dose increase?

Thank you Marje! I'll put on the patience pants and see what happens.

The spray does have peppermint oil in it...uh oh!! I definitely won't use it again. I sprayed the heck out of everything 3 or 4 days ago but haven't used it since. Thanks for pointing that out.

I have an appointment with the doctor who sells Allerplex tomorrow, so I will be picking that up then. I have a couple questions that I was thinking of PMing you but maybe you'll see this - I'm wondering how much of a dose to give with the Allerplex. I'm also wondering what Merrick ingredients Gracie is allergic to. I am pretty stumped about what is causing Billie's allergies. I don't think it's the duck, because her last duck meal was 2ish days ago, and the new hives just showed up now, so I'm wondering if it's some other ingredient that is maybe in multiples types of Merrick. A lot of the flavors have dried egg, peas, cranberries, alfalfa...all kinds of stuff. So I'm wondering if you narrowed it down with Gracie.

It could also be dairy from the parmesan with Billie, although she has always gotten sprinkles of that without a problem.

Thank you very much for your help!! :smile:

Re: 9/4 Billie AMPS 259 +3.5 276 dose increase?

Thanks Elise! I am wondering about a dermatologist too...or an allergist if I can find one. I found a dermatologist that's only about a half hour away. I have a call out to our vet today to see if he has any thoughts on the hives returning. I'll probably give it a few days of only feeding Hound & Gatos chicken (it has very few ingredients) and no dairy (Billie is going to hate me), and if that doesn't help, I'll try a specialist.

Re: 9/4 Billie AMPS 259 +3.5 276 dose increase?

I hope the diet change eliminates the problem. Then you would just need to see which food is the culprit. Good luck.

Re: 9/4 Billie AMPS 259 +3.5 276 dose increase?

If it was peppermint oil.....nix on it....forever. Just to be safe. And I'd stay away from any oil, essential or nonessential, and also any fragrances. With her allergies....it could be anything.

Gracie appears to have an issue with fish. She can eat all of the other Merrick varieties but cannot eat fish. In fact, she doesn't have any fish at all. I had to stop her most beloved shrimpies treat.

I don't know if you are aware but our vet does Nutrition Response Testing (NRT). While it sounds hokey (it's akin to muscle testing), the results I've seen for all of our cats (and me because I use it, too) has been phenomenal. I've asked my vet before if they have a network of vets who use NRT but she said they don't and so you'd just have to search for one using google. The value of that is that the obvious solution is not always what the kitty needs because sometimes there is an underlying condition that needs something else and once that is addressed, the expression of it in terms of symptoms is addressed. Make sense?

The dose of allerplex depends on what the cat needs. For instance, Tobey has to have two capsules a day. Gracie had to have one for a while but now she doesn't need it any longer. I know Dr. B has tested them for as much as three a day. So I might start with one full capsule bid. I would ask the chiropractor if they do NRT. He might be willing to test her for it.

Ella puts Rusty's in baby food. My cats don't like baby food so I put it in a tiny glass dish and add a small amount of filtered water (we have a reverse osmosis system but any bottled/filtered water is fine) and then I whisk it with a tiny whisk. Then I pour it in a 3ml needle less syringe and syringe it. I taught our kitties to lick out of a syringe when they were tiny and so they are champs at it. Gracie thinks it is a treat :lol: :lol: but Tobey is ambivalent.

Re: 9/4 Billie AMPS 259 +3.5 276 dose increase?

Thank you for all the info! One capsule bid sounds good to start. Sorry to hear about the shrimpies...how unfair! I hope Billie's allergy isn't dairy, because she will lose her favorite treat and I will lose my bribery tactics for getting her out of hiding and getting her to take medicine.

I am definitely interested in NRT and will look into that. It does make sense and sounds cool. There is an exclusively holistic vet nearby who does all kinds of neat stuff, and I bet she offers it. She might have some different ideas about addressing allergies too.

Our vet just called back. He thinks limiting food is a good next step, but of course, his first suggestion was Hill's ZD. 34% carb. No thank you. He was very helpful though. I told him the Hill's wasn't going to be an option because of the carb content, and he understood that. He said he is going to consult with some other vets in the practice and with his wife who is also a vet. He said he'd call me back next week with some more ideas. He thinks that a food trial is a good place to start, and a dermatologist would be a good next step, although he said he would try a food trial for 3 months before seeing a dermatologist, and that sounds like way too long to me if her symptoms keep up.

I looked into the Natural Balance Limited Ingredient Diets, but their ingredients don't seem all that limited. I think Hound & Gatos is a decent first step. And I can probably mix her meds and the Allerplex with chicken water drained from canned chicken for now. Billie also doesn't like baby food.

These are the ingredients in the Hound & Gatos chicken formula:

Chicken, Water, Potassium Chloride, Calcium Carbonate, Xanthan Gum, Choline Chloride, Guar Gum, Cassia Gum, Salt, Taurine, Magnesium Proteinate, Iron Proteinate, Zinc Proteinate, Manganese Proteinate, Copper Proteinate, Sodium Selenite, Calcium Iodate, Thiamine Mononitrate (Vitamin B1), Niacin Supplement (Vitamin B3), Vitamin E Supplement, Calcium Pantothenate (Vitamin B5), Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (Vitamin B6), Riboflavin Supplement (Vitamin B2), Biotin (Vitamin B7), Vitamin B12 Supplement, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Folic Acid (Vitamin B9)

I'm hoping there is nothing in there that can cause a stir, unless she's allergic to the chicken itself.

It just occurred to me that her appy was spectacular last night and she ate a TON of Merrick Beef Pate...and then today woke up with new hives. That could mean something. If there is a food thing going on, I feel like it's one of those added ingredients like egg that is in all the Merrick foods.

Back to the experiments!! Thank you again.

Re: 9/4 Billie AMPS 259 +3.5 276 dose increase?

Good luck with the experiments. Be sure and check the chicken broth and make sure it is only chicken and water. Some have vegetable broth in them as well and thats not good for our kitties because it could have soy. Probably does have soy.

Hope the holistic vet does NRT!!

Interesting observation about the Merrick Beef. It is Gracie's favorite. My kitties did not like the Hounds and Gatos. bummer because it's a very high quality food.

Re: 9/4 Billie AMPS 259 +3.5 276 dose increase?

Thank you for the tip on the chicken broth - I have to be extra careful with all these ingredients!

I'm thinking that if Billie is allergic to something in the Merrick, eating a lot of Merrick Beef last night would have exposed her to a lot of the allergen, causing the new hives.

Her vet called back with another thought of giving her anti-parasitic meds in case she has a parasite of some sort, which would also make sense with the high eosinophil count. He mentioned lungworm and said that it is rare but worth looking into. It would explain the cough, but not the skin reaction. I don't know anything about those meds but figure it is worth a try. He said I should bring in a stool sample, but sometimes you can get a false negative from a stool sample, so he recommended trying the meds regardless.

Re: 9/4 Billie PMPS 207

It very well could be the beef as fish and beef are the ones cats are most often allergic to it seems. Has she ever had beef in the past?

Re: 9/4 Billie PMPS 207 +2 240 +3.75 159

Hi Elise! Billie has had beef on and off in the past, but I don't think it could be what caused the allergic reaction because up until this past week, she hadn't had it in quite a while. I mainly picked it up as an alternative to duck since I was thinking she might be allergic to the duck. I am now mostly suspicious of the extra ingredients in all the Merrick food, like dried egg product. I'm also suspicious of dairy and cutting out the parmesan for now, much to Billie's dismay.

I called my chiropractor to make sure they have the Allerplex, and unfortunately, they are out and won't have more until they place their next order with Standard Process. So, I have to find another office around here that carries it. She suggested Antronex as an alternative, but I'd rather find the Allerplex since I don't know anything about cats taking Antronex, and the ingredients are different.

Our vet wants Billie to do a 5 day course of Panacur to rule out lungworm, since coughing + high eosinophil count can come from parasites or allergies. I got the meds but am hesitant to start her on them right away, unless her coughing gets worse. She hasn't coughed so far tonight! I want to see if a few days of no Merrick makes a difference, maybe giving it till Sunday or Monday and seeing what happens. She has only had Hound & Gatos and Evo 95 since about noon today. Both of those foods have limited ingredients without the "frills" so I am thinking they are both okay to try. Of course, if she does have lungworm, I don't want to wait to start the Panacur...but lungworm doesn't explain the hives and I am still convinced that the hives and cough are related.

I am dreading Saturday because I have an event to go to 2 hours away and won't be back until late. I'm debating taking Billie with me and spending the night (again), but I think that would be more for my own benefit than hers. I just know I'll be nervous going out for a long time if she's not feeling well. I will try to get someone to check in on her.

I hope everyone is having a nice night!!

Re: 9/4 Billie PMPS 207 +2 240 +3.75 159

Sure wish I could offer some help. But I can't. Seems like you've got a progression of things to try. Lots of vines something helps.

Marilyn and Polly

Re: 9/4 Billie PMPS 207 +2 240 +3.75 159

Marilyn, thanks for the vines!! They help too.

Re: 9/4 Billie PMPS 207 +2 240 +3.75 159

Poor Billie!

I'm sure it's so incredibly frustrating to try to narrow down the potential allergen.

Total shot in the dark here, but Billie had hives before starting the clavamox, right? The reason I ask is that my (human) sister has a penicillin allergy, and her reaction was severe hives. Over time, she also discovered that she'd have a reaction to certain types of foods containing yeast or mold (i.e., certain types of breads and cheeses).

Tons of healing and feel better vines coming Billie's way!

Re: 9/4 Billie PMPS 207 +2 240 +3.75 159

Thanks Jen!! I appreciate all theories because I am super stumped. The hives did come before the Clavamox, and the Clavamox was prescribed to clear what the vet thought was a bacterial skin infection from Billie itching the hives. Billie has taken Clavamox twice before with no side effects, but who knows. The hives really started looking better with the Clavamox, until this morning when the newbies popped up of course. :YMSIGH: The cheese theory is definitely a possibility, and interesting to note since she has been getting more dairy since starting the Clavamox - I have been mixing it with cottage cheese and/or parmesan, because she will eat it up like that. Tomorrow, I'm going to start mixing it with chicken water.

Re: 9/4 Billie PMPS 207 +2 240 +3.75 159

Hi Deanna, sorry to hear Billie still has more hives, how frustrating! With all the weird things they feed chickens and cows, i.e. hormones, antibiotics unnecessarily, I know of several people who developed sensitivities to milk products until they switched to organic. I hate the food I give Tiger because it's first ingredient is additives, yuuck, but she won't eat much else. though she will take a few bites of Wellness lately. I am seriously considering making her food from organic chicken, but my luck, she wouldn't eat it. :roll: :roll:

Looking like a great cycle for Billie, hope she feels better!

I spoke with my vet today about Billie while I had Gracie in to see her. She said it would be fine for Billie to take one capsule of Allerplex bid but she also said you should also give her Drenamarin. I believe she said that when they have high eosinophils, the adrenals need support and you can give her 1/2-1 bid. I also found this:

Certain types of skin disorders such as pemphigus can cause an increase in eosinophils. Pemphigus is a severe skin disorder in which thin-walled blisters on the skin pop and leave raw patches.

Click to expand...

I don't know if cats get pemphigus.

I just googled it and cats can get that. It is an autoimmune disorder.

Marje, thank you so much for asking your vet about Billie!! That is very thoughtful of you and I really appreciate it. I am going to call some other chiropractic offices in the morning to see if they have Allerplex and Drenamin. There are a lot of offices in the area, so I imagine someone will have them. If not, I found that I can at least order the Allerplex off Amazon with free 2 day shipping!

I did some googling, and cats can get pemphigus. It sounds like it's pretty common. I'll have to ask about that too.

I decided to go ahead and start the Panacur (2.5 ml once a day for 5 days) after reading more about it (and after Billie freaked me out with some more coughing). It sounds like it's pretty safe, and I see that some FDMB cats have used it in the past. If there's a chance it will help, I figure there's no point waiting. And if it doesn't help, then I'll have more evidence that we're dealing with allergies. I'm also going to look for a probiotic tomorrow which I should have done anyway since she has been on Clavamox, although she hasn't had any diarrhea, thank goodness.

Ruth, thank you for visiting!! I have also thought about cooking for the cats. It's always in the back of my mind. Maybe we can try it sometime and share recipes!

I use Renew Ultimate for Gracie. It is Ff friendly. I give her about 1/4 capsule once a day mixed in food. She's small, though....about 8.5 lbs. I shop around. They do carry it at GNC and Whole Foods.

Awesome! Thank you. I will hit up Whole Foods tomorrow.

Sending lots of vines for poor miss Billie. I hope you can find the solution to her itchies soon.

If you want to try a dairy that isn't cheese or cottage cheese, you might want to try yoghurt. I have a friend with allergies to a lot of dairy products (hives) and she can eat yoghurt. Some plain Greek yoghurts also have probiotics in them.

Wendy, thank you for the vines! And Billie says thank you for the yogurt suggestion...she would love a safer dairy option. Really, she would love to be fed an assortment of cheeses all day long with sips of whole milk and some pads of butter. If I cook with butter, Billie comes sprinting into the kitchen meowing like crazy the moment I pull it out of the fridge.

You're welcome. Hope tomorrow is better for her.